My S and W 649 is jamming???

[MSFALEnthusiast]

I have a 1980s vintage 649 (long round butt grip frame/coil mainspring) that I bought new old stock. I have fired about 1000 rounds through it and clean it after each 50 rounds. For some reason, the lockwork seems to seize after about 25 rounds. I can index the cylinder at that point manually and generally get it to shoot the rest of the box. I have shot a variety of loads through it and get her same result with all of them. I took the lock plate off and examined the inside. It had the most minimal residue inside which I have cleaned with no positive effect. I have checked for primer setback and don’t think this is the problem.
Would anyone have an idea what the problem is?

 

[Trooper894]

When you say it "locks up", can't pull the trigger or pull the hammer back to advance the cylinder? Possibly the hand and the ratchets on the back of the extractor may have a slight miss fit, hand that engages the ratchets may be just a hair long. It doesn't take much to tie up the cylinder, there isn't a lot of leverage there..
That is my favorite revolver model, I bought mine as a duty backup gun as soon as the 649 came out and carried it until I retired in 2006. I sold it to another retiree when I retired (I'm a semi-auto guy) and it's the only gun I've ever sold that I regret selling.

 

[ByronF]

Can you tell if the stickiness is related to the cylinder on the crane? Or is it in the lockwork that advances the cylinder? I'd think you should be able to determine that easily. That'll split the deck of issues in half.

 

[W.E.G.]

Is the ejector rod unscrewing itself?

 

[yellowhand]

Cleaning after every 50 rounds, getting 25 rounds off on a clean wheel gun, as Gary said above,,,or dirty (chambers) ,,, the 25 rounds on a clean pistol, then jamming begins,,,,also could be, your fired rounds fouling your chambers, just enough, to not allow your rounds to properly seat fully, so,,,,pistol begins to "lock up".

Do what you normally do,,,,,,clean, fire same ammo, 25 or so rounds, and the moment it hangs up,,,,,,open cylinder, and use your thumb, and press each round not already fired down as hard as possible, remove spent casing, then close weapon, try firing.
If they fire,,,,,,,then clean your cylinders only, reload, fire weapon,
If the next batch fires, there's your problem.

If you're firing lead ball,,,,WC, even lead HP's, they tend to foul chambers right in front of nose of bullet,,,,,switch over to jacketed.

If jacketed,,,,try lead.

Leaded chambers, copper fouled chambers, death to revolvers running properly, with rounds not seating after a while...

 

[Gazz]

The ejector rod is a left hand thread and is hollow so be careful screwing it back in if that is the issue. Somebody makes a tool for removing installing the ejector rod but I don't know who. It is a relatively common problem with S&W revolvers and will also make it difficult to swing the cylinder out.

 

[MSFALEnthusiast]

Wow, thanks for all the help!

The trigger seems to lock up as noted . I haven’t tried cocking the hammer up to this point because I have been trying to improve my double action skills…

I don’t think that the problem is in the crane or the ejector rod because after all the rounds I’ve fired it’s broken in pretty good and is relatively slick. In fact, when it locks up I can rotate the chamber to the next chamber with no pressure or resistance. I don’t think I am having problems with primer or cartridge setback. However earlier on I was having the problems more frequently when I wasn’t cleaning it after each range session

Once it does seize, and cleared it might be able to make it through the rest of the box with “only” a couple of more seizing incidents at most.

One thing after it’s cleared it can be dry fired for hundreds of clicks without seizing eve without cleaning.

After everything y’all said I have a theory that it has something to do with the tolerance between the hand and the engagement lugs on the back of the cylinder. I’m wondering if after firing about 25 rounds, buildup on those parts is causing some misalignment and causing it to jam. Possibly clearing causes the fouling to be displaced, allowing me to proceed with the dry firing uninterrupted because no additional fouling is accumulating.

Does this sound reasonable ?

 

[yellowhand]

"" One thing after it’s cleared it can be dry fired for hundreds of clicks without seizing eve without cleaning.""

The only thing you've done at this point, remove spent cases and unfired rounds,,,,,,,

You just described, chamber build up fouling in front of where the bullets sit in the chambers, which builds up as you fire the weapon....

Are you using Unique by any chance????

 

[Gazz]

Another thing to check is crud under the extractor star. With the cylinder out as if you were going to load it, push the ejector rod and with a tooth brush like thing clean the rear face of the cylinder and the bottom side of the ejector. A little bit of junk in that area can cause problems.

 

[yellowhand]

There is a wise old statement,,,,,,,,When you hear hoof beats, think horses and not zebras here in the states.

If it hangs up with ammo in it, and does not hang up with ammo out of it, think AMMO first!!!!!

 

[MasterChief]

Can this be a problem in your revolver? (image from another forum)

 

[Wildcat]

View attachment 226332

Can this be a problem in your revolver? (image from another forum)

Drag marks on spent brass would be an indicator if that was the issue.

 

[SWOHFAL]

How hot are the loads? I'd try some other brands, standard power.

 

[MSFALEnthusiast]

Thanks y’all

I really don’t think it’s case setback because when the cylinder freezes I can index the cylinder with no resistance. The trigger just won’t pull. I will recheck this weekend. I’ve used moderate loads with Bullseye and lead bullets, light (lead/TiteGroup) to pretty stout loads with jacketed bullets (jacketed/Titegroup) so far.

I think my ejector star is pretty clean when I start, ant Titegroup seems to produce less residue. I can’t find any Alliant products any more.

I think my ammo is good. It chambers easy and isn’t showing any pressure. At first I thought my primer pockets were oversized so I ditched that supply and bought some more that appear to not be over fired. I have mixed brass with a variety of headstamps but I’ll follow up on that.

Masterchief I haven’t noticed any drag marks and I haven’t seen anything like the picture. I will keep a lookout though.

Unfortunately I’m kind of limited with respect to powder choices. I haven’t seen Bullseye or Unique in years. Titegroup is kind of what I’m limited to.

One thing and I don’t know if this has any relevance. I usually take a Model 66 with me. Sometimes I just use it. I haven’t had any of the problems noted with it using the same loads.

I really appreciate y’all’s thought. I’m going to try and get some video this weekend. If you have time ro look at it please let me know what you think.

 

[SWOHFAL]

You ought to go here:

Smith & Wesson Forum

This is the Smith and Wesson Collectors discussion forum.

smith-wessonforum.com

 

[yovinny]

You can finish rotating the cylinder manually,, and then it fires ?
Does it not rotate the cylinder again to the next chamber when the DA only trigger is then again fully pulled or are you holding the trigger partially pulled when you finish rotating the cylinder manually ?

I'd check everything about the hand, hand spring, hand window opening & cylinder ratchet.

 

[MSFALEnthusiast]

Thanks for tuning back in. The video below if it loads shows the free rotation if the cylinder after the action locks up I guess it’s kind of like those “pre Patterson revolvers”that Colt improved upon. The still photo shows the case that wasunder the hammer when it jammed, now at about 10 o’clock. It didn’t indicate setback

I hadn’t noticed it before but chamber fouling is pretty extensive. However. This seems to stick the case in the cylinder preventing setback.

One last thing. I checked out the S and W forum. I think y’all are better.

Thanks y’all.

One last thing. Video wouldn’t load so I’m attaching a screenshot

 

[OMCHamlin]

I had issues with that be once that was if not the cause, a strong contributor; I had somewhat of a sharp edge on one of the contours on the recoil shield, it was just a very sharp line or edge, and I just broke that edge and it seemed to do much better. This was, I think, an older gun. Definitely, could be ammo too.

 

[Invictus77]

I checked out the S and W forum. I think y’all are better.

QFT......

 

[apache c-10]

I had a model 25, 45 Colt that was doing the same thing. I found that the barrel cylinder gap was so tight that after a minimal number of rounds the fouling on the face of the cylinder was causing it to bind and lock up.

 

[SWOHFAL]

If Buff were still with us, he probably would've had an answer for you.

 

[Wildcat]

View attachment 227453

So, in the above still shot, your left index finger appears to be in contact with the cylinder.
Is there a reason for that?

 

[MSFALEnthusiast]

View attachment 227800
So, in the above still shot, your left index finger appears to be in contact with the cylinder.
Is there a reason for that?

I had a video showing the process but it wouldn’t upload. My finger isn’t on the trigger when I’m trying to fire it. After it goes off and the trigger freezes I can turn the cylinder with my finger

 

[MSFALEnthusiast]

I had issues with that be once that was if not the cause, a strong contributor; I had somewhat of a sharp edge on one of the contours on the recoil shield, it was just a very sharp line or edge, and I just broke that edge and it seemed to do much better. This was, I think, an older gun. Definitely, could be ammo too.

It doesn’t seem to be binding on the backplate. The bolt drops down and the cylinder turns freely but the hand won’t get the cylinder to turn

 

[Andy the Aussie]

I do not think we are going to be able to diagnose it here with what we have. It needs to land in front of a gunsmith versed in things S&W. There is little that cannot be rectified with a J Frame. I would also deliver it along with about 15rds of the ammunition you are using. If the cylinder is free spinning there is an issue with the stop and/or the hand. Unless you have experience a hand is not a home fix.