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Old December 22, 2005, 08:15   #1
zallen
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Is this coming here?

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Britain will be first country to monitor every car journey
From 2006 Britain will be the first country where every journey by every car will be monitored
By Steve Connor, Science Editor
Published: 22 December 2005
Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded. A new national surveillance system will hold the records for at least two years.

Using a network of cameras that can automatically read every passing number plate, the plan is to build a huge database of vehicle movements so that the police and security services can analyse any journey a driver has made over several years.

The network will incorporate thousands of existing CCTV cameras which are being converted to read number plates automatically night and day to provide 24/7 coverage of all motorways and main roads, as well as towns, cities, ports and petrol-station forecourts.

By next March a central database installed alongside the Police National Computer in Hendon, north London, will store the details of 35 million number-plate "reads" per day. These will include time, date and precise location, with camera sites monitored by global positioning satellites.

Already there are plans to extend the database by increasing the storage period to five years and by linking thousands of additional cameras so that details of up to 100 million number plates can be fed each day into the central databank.

Senior police officers have described the surveillance network as possibly the biggest advance in the technology of crime detection and prevention since the introduction of DNA fingerprinting.

But others concerned about civil liberties will be worried that the movements of millions of law-abiding people will soon be routinely recorded and kept on a central computer database for years.

The new national data centre of vehicle movements will form the basis of a sophisticated surveillance tool that lies at the heart of an operation designed to drive criminals off the road.

In the process, the data centre will provide unrivalled opportunities to gather intelligence data on the movements and associations of organised gangs and terrorist suspects whenever they use cars, vans or motorcycles.

The scheme is being orchestrated by the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) and has the full backing of ministers who have sanctioned the spending of £24m this year on equipment.

More than 50 local authorities have signed agreements to allow the police to convert thousands of existing traffic cameras so they can read number plates automatically. The data will then be transmitted to Hendon via a secure police communications network.

Chief constables are also on the verge of brokering agreements with the Highways Agency, supermarkets and petrol station owners to incorporate their own CCTV cameras into the network. In addition to cross-checking each number plate against stolen and suspect vehicles held on the Police National Computer, the national data centre will also check whether each vehicle is lawfully licensed, insured and has a valid MoT test certificate.

"Every time you make a car journey already, you'll be on CCTV somewhere. The difference is that, in future, the car's index plates will be read as well," said Frank Whiteley, Chief Constable of Hertfordshire and chairman of the Acpo steering committee on automatic number plate recognition (ANPR).

"What the data centre should be able to tell you is where a vehicle was in the past and where it is now, whether it was or wasn't at a particular location, and the routes taken to and from those crime scenes. Particularly important are associated vehicles," Mr Whiteley said.

The term "associated vehicles" means analysing convoys of cars, vans or trucks to see who is driving alongside a vehicle that is already known to be of interest to the police. Criminals, for instance, will drive somewhere in a lawful vehicle, steal a car and then drive back in convoy to commit further crimes "You're not necessarily interested in the stolen vehicle. You're interested in what's moving with the stolen vehicle," Mr Whiteley explained.

According to a strategy document drawn up by Acpo, the national data centre in Hendon will be at the heart of a surveillance operation that should deny criminals the use of the roads.

"The intention is to create a comprehensive ANPR camera and reader infrastructure across the country to stop displacement of crime from area to area and to allow a comprehensive picture of vehicle movements to be captured," the Acpo strategy says.

"This development forms the basis of a 24/7 vehicle movement database that will revolutionise arrest, intelligence and crime investigation opportunities on a national basis," it says.

Mr Whiteley said MI5 will also use the database. "Clearly there are values for this in counter-terrorism," he said.

"The security services will use it for purposes that I frankly don't have access to. It's part of public protection. If the security services did not have access to this, we'd be negligent."







I absolutely LOVE the last paragraph! If we didn't give them unlimited power to observe us without oversight than we'd be negligent. Ha!

Is that new movie coming out in March a fictional story or a documentary?



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Old December 22, 2005, 08:44   #2
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Those wacky Brits.

No need to show your papers as they will be able to follow you from the time you get out of bed till you go to sleep.

What's next, DNA samples upon entering government buildings so that they can verify who you are?

If they think they had problems with the GATSO's before, once this program goes into effect there will be fires at lots of camera locations.

In the good ole USA there will be lots of cameras being shot up since we still do have firearms, at least for now.

Remember boys and girls, keep those cell phones turned off when not in actual use, and say NO to OnStar and LoJack on new vehicles.

Big Brother is here and alive in Maryland.

Maryland is the first state to use the built-in GPS feature to monitor traffic movements. The bastages at Cingular are in cahoots with the Canadian company that developed the service.

Send Cingular a message and cancel their service ASAP.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...home-headlines

Cell phone data tracing traffic in Md.
System 'watches' vehicles, raises fears about privacy

By Michael Dresser
Sun reporter

November 18, 2005

If you drive in metropolitan Baltimore and use a cellular phone, somebody might be "watching" as you come and go.

A Canadian company is monitoring the flow of vehicle traffic in the area by using an emerging technology that tracks the constant stream of data generated by drivers' cell phones as they communicate with towers in the network.

Maryland highway officials are excited. They plan to use the technology to help traffic move more smoothly. But privacy advocates worry that the system could lead to bigger headaches than a Beltway backup.

In a few years, researchers say, the program could take a big bite out of congestion on the nation's roads by quickly delivering alerts on road conditions directly to drivers.

"It's going to revolutionize the way we plan our trips and the way we drive," said Philip J. Tarnoff, director of the Center for Advanced Transportation Technology at the University of Maryland, College Park. "It'll be the electronic equivalent of the interstate system in terms of improvement in transportation."

Delcan NET, the company marketing the technology, has been gathering the information since early this year in the Baltimore region, the first place in the United States where it has rolled out the system. It has an agreement to share the information with the State Highway Administration, which hopes to begin using the data to give drivers more timely and complete alerts on road conditions sometime next year.

Delcan NET insists that the system will do nothing to track the movement of individual drivers. It says that even if police came with a warrant, the company wouldn't be able to tell them where a certain person was at a certain time.

But Kevin Bankston, staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy advocacy group, says the tracking might violate federal law. Even if it doesn't, he says, it is a dangerous idea.

"This is very much a slippery slope. As we begin making more and more uses of cell phone location information, that increases the chances that information will be used for more invasive purposes in the future," Bankston said. "We are basically developing the surveillance infrastructure that has the capability to track people individually - even if that system is not being used to do that yet."

The Delcan technology is conceptually simple and technologically complex.

Embedded in the database of a large cellular telephone company is Delcan software that uses mathematical formulas called algorithms to monitor the flow of traffic in the region. Delcan officials would not identify the company, but Maryland transportation officials confirmed that it is Cingular.

As long as a Cingular subscriber's phone is turned on, the network knows when the device leaves the area covered by one cell tower and enters the zone of another. The Delcan system would not pick up conversations, but by electronically noting the time of the "handoffs" from cell to cell, it could determine the location and speed of the vehicle.

By lumping together the data from multiple drivers, the system can determine, for instance, that southbound traffic on Interstate 95 is slowing to a crawl at the Jessup exit.

Using $1.9 million in federal funds, Maryland highway officials have entered into a contract with Delcan that gives them access to the data. By next summer, they hope to have developed the ability to analyze the data and provide better information to motorists than they can now through use of video cameras and sensors. Information about backups could be relayed to drivers through electronic signs and radio traffic reporters.

"We care about the flow of traffic. Our goal is to be able to respond to things as quickly as possible," said state highway spokesman David Buck. By quickly clearing accident sites, the state can help minimize secondary crashes and the rubber-necking that often adds to congestion after a crash.

One advantage of the cellular-based tracking system, Buck said, is that it provides coverage of secondary roads as well as the interstates where Maryland's traffic-monitoring technology is now concentrated.

Richard Mudge, vice president of Delcan NET, said the system now covers roughly 600 square miles around Baltimore - extending 5 to 10 miles outside the Beltway. He said the company installed systems previously in Antwerp, Belgium, and Tel Aviv, Israel.

"We don't like to call it a test. We think it's a full-scale deployment," he said.

Mudge, whose company is a subsidiary of Ontario-based Delcan, said his firm chose Maryland to roll out the technology because of its Department of Transportation's strong interest in monitoring traffic.

He emphasized that there is no way the state could use the information it receives from a cellular company to track individuals. Mudge said his firm's cellular partner was insistent on that point.

"The first question they asked was if we needed any individual information, and if we did they wouldn't talk to us because that goes to the heart of their business," he said.

Bankston, the privacy lawyer, said stripping the names and identifying data from the information might not be enough to make the practice legal. He said a law that prevents communications companies from disclosing information about customers provides no exception for aggregate data.

"It's very possible that customers could sue to stop the sharing of this information without their consent," he said. "I don't know that it would be successful."

Where some see perils in the technology, others see opportunities.

Mudge said he expects to see systems such as Delcan's spread across the country and eventually tie into car navigational devices.

Under such a scenario, instead of relying on radio traffic reports or a sign, a driver on I-95 might receive a signal though a navigational system informing him of the hypothetical backup at Jessup. Drawing on cellular data from other roads, the system would be able to advise the driver on how much time could be saved by cutting over to U.S. 1 or U.S. 29.

Tarnoff said the rollout of such technology is not a distant dream.

"I don't think it's that far [away], maybe two or three years," he said.

Tarnoff, whose UM center has been brought in to evaluate the technology, said it has been performing well.

"The studies have shown that this type of technology can reduce delays during an incident by as much as 50 percent," he said.
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Old December 22, 2005, 09:01   #3
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You can bet on it coming here in some places. I would guess in some places the public would know about it, in others it might not. I don't think there is any chance that the alphabet boys aren't using it to some extent already. Why else would they put cameras up to begin with?
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Old December 22, 2005, 09:09   #4
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So are you telling me that the gobment is tracking my cell phone? Who cares? I bet you didn't give Albertson's your home address and email address because you are probably afraid that they will know how many loaves of bread you consume a week. Again I say, who cares?

Loosen the tin foil hats boys.
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Old December 22, 2005, 09:47   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by gunnut1
So are you telling me that the gobment is tracking my cell phone? Who cares? I bet you didn't give Albertson's your home address and email address because you are probably afraid that they will know how many loaves of bread you consume a week. Again I say, who cares?

Loosen the tin foil hats boys.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Ben Franklin

You should care. This is not supposed to be a police state.
Perhaps you lost your tin foil hat in some bodily orifice wear you keep your head?
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Old December 22, 2005, 10:32   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by gunnut1
So are you telling me that the gobment is tracking my cell phone? Who cares? I bet you didn't give Albertson's your home address and email address because you are probably afraid that they will know how many loaves of bread you consume a week. Again I say, who cares?

Loosen the tin foil hats boys.
Mate, the issue is as Blackstone commented (forgive me if I stray from the actual quote, it's from memory) "laws should be viewed not in the light of what benefit they will bring if properly administered, but in the light of the potential for harm if abused "

There is MASSIVE potential for abuse with the modern technology available. The example in the UK is a grave threat to the liberty of the individual. The criminal/terrorist element in the UK is, at a guess, 1 or 2% of the population, yet ACPO wishes to bring EVERYONE within their power.

They cannot investigate or solve the crimes that affect most folks in the UK (that of common burglary & car theft) with any degree of efficiency right now, but by proposing such an over the top measure, they can snoop into everyone's lives.

Of course, they will be able to easily target the motorist who fails to pay for his tax disc (similar to tags here) or fails to have his vehicle inspection up to date or who speeds between camera locations but as for the hard core crim?? Forget it.

The manpower required to accurately analyse, at a minimum, 35 million items of information daily will be HUGE. The costs of such a system will be enormous, errors will occur, individuals will be falsely accused, the crims will continue as normal & resentment will grow against the govt. If the poor buggers in the UK weren't already pretty much well disarmed, I could see a revolution coming...

Such massive intrusion into the life of the ordinary citizen is unwarranted, unnecessary, an afront to natural liberty & the next step on the road to a police state.

When the state can track you by your tag plate, your spending habits & your cell phone, it's only a short step to complete control over your life.

I thank God every day I managed to escape from that place, there isn't enough money in the world to persuade me to move back there. The sad thing is, the UK was the birthplace of modern liberty, much of the Constitution is a direct lift from the Bill of Rights of 1688 & I'm glad that my father passed away before he could see what it has degenerated to. To think he & his friends fought for the liberty of the UK from the tryanny of National Socialism.

Churchill must be spinning in his grave....
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Old December 22, 2005, 11:21   #7
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Old December 22, 2005, 12:38   #8
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Originally posted by Da Nerd
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Another Ostrich heard from.
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Old December 22, 2005, 12:47   #9
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What else does anyone need to know about governmental intrusion into our private lives?

Of course it's coming here,... and much, much more,... as much as the people will tolerate.

And it's become very apparent that todays Americans will tolerate about anything from the government.
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Old December 22, 2005, 13:05   #10
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Spot on Temp.

The questions are: How much is too much? When is enough - enough?
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Old December 22, 2005, 13:08   #11
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as much as the people will tolerate.
Yup.

What is gonna come is coming. All the ranting and posturing and tin foil you can roll ain't gonna do shit but get your bloodpressure up.

Keep your eyes and ears open, keep your fences nailed up and pay close attention to your own surroundings. Moving about in your car or with your cell phone in yer pocket ain't no different than than leavin sign on yer trail in the woods. Ya go trompin around like some great fat idiot makin noise the whole damn woods is gonna know where yer at. If ya live in a place or society where you can't keep up with your surroundings, well, then pilgrim, it's time to pull pins and make trail.

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Old December 22, 2005, 13:10   #12
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Originally posted by zallen

The questions are: How much is too much?
"Too much" occurred a long time ago.
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Old December 22, 2005, 13:27   #13
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Onstar will be standard on all new production GM vehicles in 2007.
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Old December 22, 2005, 18:18   #14
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dont you remember the "clipper chip" of the mid to late 80's.
it was a piece of telephone equipment where the govt could here what ever is going on in your home even when your phone is HUNG UP.
It supposedly never flied (that law allowing it).
But who is to say.
I remember years ago in MN, the powerball money that half of it was to go to the environment. Well, after they got the law through....they revised it in another session ofcourse. Last I heard was only 5% went to the environment.
So who is to say that the clipper chip did not get approved??
Tinfoil anyone?
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Old December 23, 2005, 15:20   #15
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When this sort of stuff becomes mainstream here in the US, the information will be available to the public under the FOIA. Some enterprising individuals will grt investigator credentials and obtain the nitty gritty on cheating spouses. Now it would be freaking hilarious if the more special animals got a taste of their own.

Perhaps one of those log cabin Republicans will step out on their main squeeze and get nabbed. Perhaps the mayor of spokane has some other things he hasn't been telling......
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Old December 23, 2005, 17:47   #16
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end times
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Old December 23, 2005, 18:08   #17
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What gman said, and said well... and he's from Orwell Land. Any doubts about the Brit ruling class being a bunch of buggering inbred mini-paranoids should be removed by looking at their new puzzle palace on the Thames:



I especially like the Christmas trees along the mid-course...


zallen: Perhaps you lost your tin foil hat in some bodily orifice wear you keep your head?

Good quip... BAD visual...
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Old December 23, 2005, 18:15   #18
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Originally posted by zallen


Another Ostrich heard from.
I am definitely NOT an ostrich, I just like to 'stir the pot'
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Old December 23, 2005, 19:28   #19
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Where I travel is none of anybody's business.... least of all the authoritahs.

This crap must be opposed. I doubt it can be stopped but it must be opposed.
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Old December 23, 2005, 23:58   #20
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Originally posted by owlcreekok


Yup.

What is gonna come is coming. All the ranting and posturing and tin foil you can roll ain't gonna do shit but get your bloodpressure up.

Keep your eyes and ears open, keep your fences nailed up and pay close attention to your own surroundings. Moving about in your car or with your cell phone in yer pocket ain't no different than than leavin sign on yer trail in the woods. Ya go trompin around like some great fat idiot makin noise the whole damn woods is gonna know where yer at. If ya live in a place or society where you can't keep up with your surroundings, well, then pilgrim, it's time to pull pins and make trail.

Yo owl, I'm truly screwed then, everytime I go to town, I hit every gunstore in the burg or eat with a similar bunch of gun minded reprobates (AKA the NM section of DB ) THEN hit every gunshop.....

Just today I went into ABQ, first port of call: Charlie's Sporting Goods, picking up my new (to me) AMT .45 Longslide. Onwards to Ron Peterson Guns for a mooch about, a haggle & a register of interest in a couple of guns to see if I could get better pricing. Picked up some 6.5x55 & .45 ammo & encountered McDobber buying a .22 for his boys (all hail McD!!! ).

Left there & hit the Sportsman's Whore, oops, Warehouse & left poorer after buying more ammo & reloading supplies. Thence homeward to the Castle, suitably equipped with more ammo & weapons with which to defend the place & my liberty.

I guess I'm on the list of the 'undesirables' to be placed under careful watch, if they're REALLY good, they might see my rifle muzzle as it blows out as many cameras as possible....
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Old December 24, 2005, 07:00   #21
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BTW.....we already have "onstar"
some vehicles have the black box under the dash somewhere also. It records how fast you were going etc.
Your cell phone and garman gps know where you area also.
Don't pi$$ off sam or you might get a tomahawk missle on ya!!

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Old December 24, 2005, 21:09   #22
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GM may well be out of business by 2007.
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Old December 26, 2005, 18:28   #23
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and how long will it take fore the criminals to use your plate number on there car?

Oh wait they already do.

How long before the brits will use their cams to track hot girls into the bathroom? oh wait they already do.

How long will it take criminals to take off a plate? oh wait they already do

steal a car? already do

What is this preventing?

Nothing but your freedom.

Next up the sheeple will recieve their brand.
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Old December 26, 2005, 18:54   #24
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Next up the sheeple will recieve their brand.
They already do...
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Old December 26, 2005, 19:46   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cava3r4
BTW.....we already have "onstar"
some vehicles have the black box under the dash somewhere also. It records how fast you were going etc.
Your cell phone and garman gps know where you area also.
Don't pi$$ off sam or you might get a tomahawk missle on ya!!

Bob
Yes, it's definite that OnStar tracking knows where you are...
Yep, black boxes in vehicles are out there
Yep, your cell phone can track you too - both in real time for newer phones, and semi-real time for older phones via triangulation
No to that Garmin being able to tell anyone else where you are - it's not a transceiver, merely a receiver.

I don't rate a Tomahawk...maybe a 2.75 at most
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Old December 26, 2005, 22:08   #26
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dont forget everytime you sit down at your pc.
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Old December 27, 2005, 13:47   #27
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They will start out by saying it's to track "Terrorists" or "Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs" or "Organised Crime" and before you know it it will be tracking everyone.

Don't forget...."If it just saves one child............."
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Old December 27, 2005, 14:03   #28
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Clearly there are some folks who need to re-read (God help you if it's a first read) George Orwell's "1984". He was only off in the timing.

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Old December 27, 2005, 14:19   #29
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Had an interesting police stop this weekend. Police were doing DUI/ isurance stops along the variuos roads. Stopped gave him registration and insurance cards and then asked me (driver) to take a breathalyxier test. Had not been drinking and thought it odd as he had no indication to warrent such an action, but OK. Got out and did the deed. went back to the car and he asked the other three people in the car to take the test(none had been drinking). I asked why and he said they were collecting statistics. I said that this was private property and that unless they had a warrent to search, I didn't think they had to comply. He said this was part of the governor's program on responsible drinking and they needed to know if designated drivers were indeed being used. BS! He called his supervisor and called me in. After about 10 minutes pulled us out of line and sent us on our way. Didn't want to deal with us, given my background.
Another intresting bit of info. Went in with my wife to look at the ultrasound of my son. The doctor took two samples for the amno test and I noticed this. I asked why two, and he said that one had to go to the state capital for "genetic research", state law requirement. I said she owned that fluid and she was not informed as to the full use of her fluids. He took me out into the hallway to explain the situation. We resloved the issue. I'll be damn if my son was going to be on an insurance company GATTAGA file from the get go.
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Old December 27, 2005, 18:36   #30
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C2, what state is this in?

I thought roadblocks for fishing are a violation of the Fourth Ammendment.
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Old December 27, 2005, 19:18   #31
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I saw random roadblocks on the News in Mass. Like that's a surprise.
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Old December 28, 2005, 11:01   #32
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New Mexico. Given the educational background of the state they try all kinds of stuff here. The poor whites and Hispanics are used for these experiments because they don't complain. These experiments pop up and then go away. You should see some of the school things they have tried to pull. Because the state is so poor they will do anything for a Federal buck but it doesn't stick.
Like Rawles says NM is a thrid world nation. From what I do I can attest to that (However, that can have it's advantages if you understand the Patrone system.)
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Old December 28, 2005, 16:22   #33
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Originally posted by C2A1
Another intresting bit of info. Went in with my wife to look at the ultrasound of my son. The doctor took two samples for the amno test and I noticed this. I asked why two, and he said that one had to go to the state capital for "genetic research", state law requirement. I said she owned that fluid and she was not informed as to the full use of her fluids. He took me out into the hallway to explain the situation. We resloved the issue. I'll be damn if my son was going to be on an insurance company GATTAGA file from the get go.
I'll have to remember this. Ones on the way ETA of June.

FfH
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Old December 28, 2005, 23:42   #34
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Now THAT **is** news!

congrats FfH
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Old December 29, 2005, 01:45   #35
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The only way I see us ever wiggling out of the ever tightening noose of the super state is by one of our enemies (foreign or domestic) launching an EMP attack on US soil. That way all the data that isn't sheilded behind a lead wall is going to be fried. Unfortunately, that will also destroy the US economy at the same time. On the bright side, I know that industrious Americans will eventually recover the economy. Short of all .gov data going up in an electronic fireball, I'm not so sure we can ever recover our liberties.
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Old December 29, 2005, 07:02   #36
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OBD II which is required on every new car sold in the US is currently being used by police. It works like a "black box" recording things like speed and airbag deployment amung other things. I have read where it has been used in a NY court cast to charge someone with manslaughter after a fatal high speed colision. Big brother is already watching....



A side note:

Please don't let Elliot Spitzer become governer of NY...
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Old December 29, 2005, 08:22   #37
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Originally posted by Glucker
GM may well be out of business by 2007.
Nope. "We" will bail them out, just like "we" bailed out Chrysler.

Gman, you get all the ones on the left and I'll get all the ones on the right. If you see them in the middle they're up for grabs! Claire Wolfe was right, "It's too late to work within the system and too early to shoot the bastards".

Tick Tock.
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Old December 29, 2005, 09:08   #38
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"It's too late to work within the system and too early to shoot the bastards".
Then....vote all the incumbents out of office. No job, no pension...get in line like the rest of us.
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Old December 29, 2005, 11:04   #39
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I became acquainted with a Chinese lady who runs an Oriental store in the mall.
I told her I was fascinated by ancient China. She invited to take me along on one of her buying trip to China. I wish it were possible.
Any way, in our talks I asked her how she liked living in America, expecting a glorious reply. She said she did NOT like it here. I asked her why?
She said we have way too many laws. Imagine that.
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Old December 29, 2005, 12:00   #40
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Sailor - "Vote them out?" you're kidding right?
Not only will they not get voted out, they will never vote for term limits, they vote their own pay raises and regardless of what anyone says; they're completely unaccountable. How many times have we heard about dead people voting? Remember the "chads"? 'We need to determine what the voter's intent was', yeah right. Military ballots didn't come in on time, yeah we know we didn't send out on time, but that doesn't matter.

No one I ever spoken to from MA has ever voted for the submersible oldsmobile pilot but he gets elected every frick'n time! 'Course maybe they're just ashamed to admit it.

The core of the problem is that you can't get rid of them all at once. If you could we might have a chance. When a new critter gets elected for the first time, even if he has the best of intentions, when he gets to Congress he's confronted by the Old Boy network. He has no real power because all of the real power is in commitees. Who decides on which commitee he'll be ALLOWED to serve? The senior critters. If he doesn't play ball their way he's shunted aside and made completely impotent.

There's only one way this country will once again be free.
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Old December 29, 2005, 12:25   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by C2A1
Another intresting bit of info. Went in with my wife to look at the ultrasound of my son. The doctor took two samples for the amno test and I noticed this. I asked why two, and he said that one had to go to the state capital for "genetic research", state law requirement. I said she owned that fluid and she was not informed as to the full use of her fluids. He took me out into the hallway to explain the situation. We resloved the issue. I'll be damn if my son was going to be on an insurance company GATTAGA file from the get go.
They don't even need that, just some blood or a cheek swab will get them this info.

Last edited by CZ-75a; December 29, 2005 at 12:36.
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Old December 29, 2005, 12:29   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lostinthewoods
OBD II which is required on every new car sold in the US is currently being used by police. It works like a "black box" recording things like speed and airbag deployment amung other things. I have read where it has been used in a NY court cast to charge someone with manslaughter after a fatal high speed colision. Big brother is already watching....



A side note:

Please don't let Elliot Spitzer become governer of NY...
OBD II (the engine control computer) DOES NOT do what you say. The data recorder is seperate, even though it may be pluged into the engine control module. They are all but impossible to remove, though, since they are linked to your airbag system.
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Old December 29, 2005, 13:05   #43
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From gun nut 1: "So are you telling me that the gobment is tracking my cell phone? Who cares? I bet you didn't give Albertson's your home address and email address because you are probably afraid that they will know how many loaves of bread you consume a week. Again I say, who cares?

Loosen the tin foil hats boys."

If privacy is so useless, please post your authentic SSN (you and all family members), birth dates, yearly income and tax data, number of guns you own and serial numbers, physical home address, all phone numbers and the hours your home is unoccupied.

Tin foil hats, indeed. Yawn.

See: http://www.nocards.org/welcome/index.shtml
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Old December 30, 2005, 01:12   #44
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Sailor553 wrote:
Quote:
Then....vote all the incumbents out of office. No job, no pension...get in line like the rest of us.
You could vote out every elected official and your rights would still erode. Most regulation comes from the beaurocrats. Legislation through elected officials is only what you see! Its the underlings in the alphabet soup agencies that don't change from administration to administration that are the danger. You know, the ones that can never be fired, will never answer to anyone. They exist in the shadows but affect every citizens life directly or indirectly, sometimes with ramifications that take a generation or more to surface. Even after the attack on 9/11, was any government official fired for negligence in our intelligence agencies? These dangerous critters multiply like rabbits year after year, feathering their own nests, justifiing their existance with the make-believe hysteria"wars on": drugs/terror/poverty/smoking/illiteracy/ (or insert pet cause).
Case in point; the ATF's import barrel ban. Show me the legislation that provided for that neat little change in policy. Spying on ourselves, HA! Its like an iceberg, you only see the very tip, but under the surface, there is a whole lot more going on, and its not good.
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That the endless leaps and forward plans will someday have to cease
You blind yourselves with comfort lies like lightning never strikes you twice
And we laugh at your amazed surprise as the Ark begins to sink
This temple that is built so well to separate us from ourselves
Is a power grown beyond control, a will without a face
And watching from outside I wish that I could wash my hands of this
But we are locked together here, this bittersweet embrace
Oh God I love the world
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Old December 30, 2005, 04:25   #45
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Originally posted by C2A1

Another intresting bit of info. Went in with my wife to look at the ultrasound of my son. The doctor took two samples for the amno test and I noticed this. I asked why two, and he said that one had to go to the state capital for "genetic research", state law requirement. I said she owned that fluid and she was not informed as to the full use of her fluids. He took me out into the hallway to explain the situation. We resloved the issue. I'll be damn if my son was going to be on an insurance company GATTAGA file from the get go.
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you allow your child to have a "birth certificate" and a SS# to be issued with his name on attached, then the meathooks of the corporate state will be in place and he'll never be free.

A little clue as to what I'm talking about - I had to obtain a copy of my 'birth certificate' when I applied for a passport a few years ago. They asked me whether I wanted 'the long form' or 'the short form'. I requested 'the long form' which cost extra. It was a b/w photocopy of the original document from the hospital on a piece of special paper with a number in red ink in the upper left corner completely outside the overlaid photocopy of the original document on this special paper, which had a 'commercial paper' quality to it and a raised ink border all the way around it. On the very bottom it said, "American Bank Note Company", like it was special paper from this American Bank Note Company. WTF? A 'note'?

Also, on my BC and others I have seen, there is a field that is entitled 'Informant' where the name of one's mother is found. 'Informant'...hmmm...interesting word 'informant'. Could it be that one's own mother ratted someone out??? You know prior to the bankruptcy of the US of A in 1933 there were no BCs being issued...hmmm....You don't suppose that BCs are being used as 'collateral' do ya...hmmm....
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Old December 30, 2005, 05:46   #46
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Originally posted by Sukhoi_fan


I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you allow your child to have a "birth certificate" and a SS# to be issued with his name on attached, then the meathooks of the corporate state will be in place and he'll never be free.

A little clue as to what I'm talking about - I had to obtain a copy of my 'birth certificate' when I applied for a passport a few years ago. They asked me whether I wanted 'the long form' or 'the short form'. I requested 'the long form' which cost extra. It was a b/w photocopy of the original document from the hospital on a piece of special paper with a number in red ink in the upper left corner completely outside the overlaid photocopy of the original document on this special paper, which had a 'commercial paper' quality to it and a raised ink border all the way around it. On the very bottom it said, "American Bank Note Company", like it was special paper from this American Bank Note Company. WTF? A 'note'?

Also, on my BC and others I have seen, there is a field that is entitled 'Informant' where the name of one's mother is found. 'Informant'...hmmm...interesting word 'informant'. Could it be that one's own mother ratted someone out??? You know prior to the bankruptcy of the US of A in 1933 there were no BCs being issued...hmmm....You don't suppose that BCs are being used as 'collateral' do ya...hmmm....
Dayum...

Loosen up the hatband a little...

It's not like it isn't bad enough without making it all sound silly.

What zallen, the gman and most others say...

Forrest
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Old December 30, 2005, 07:58   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by ftierson

Loosen up the hatband a little...

Forrest
Hmmm...are you sure that's good advice??? My sweetheart has always told me the tighter the hatband the better...and to keep it tight.
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Old December 30, 2005, 14:59   #48
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Originally posted by Sukhoi_fan
Hmmm...are you sure that's good advice??? My sweetheart has always told me the tighter the hatband the better...and to keep it tight.
I think that you may have misunderstood your sweetie...

She was probably referring to another kind of band, not to a hatband (unless, of course, you were not using the hatband on a hat on your head (well, the upper one, I mean))...



Forrest
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Old December 30, 2005, 18:41   #49
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Originally posted by zallen


Nope. "We" will bail them out, just like "we" bailed out Chrysler.

Gman, you get all the ones on the left and I'll get all the ones on the right. If you see them in the middle they're up for grabs! Claire Wolfe was right, "It's too late to work within the system and too early to shoot the bastards".

Tick Tock.
Be glad (& proud) to help ya out, I have a good friend who would prolly take the centre targets & damn if'n he wouldn't try snitching some of OURS too!!!

I've never heard that quote before but by golly, I LIKE IT!!
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Old December 30, 2005, 23:38   #50
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Speaking of Claire Wolfe, this gives me the opportunity to, yet again, pitch the book "The State vs. The People: The Rise of the American Police State," by Claire Wolfe and Aaron Zelman.

This is a must read...

Get it from the JPFO people at

JPFO

Go to the on-line store and select books and booklets...

Forrest
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