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Old June 16, 2012, 10:49   #1
Ghost
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NFA trusts.

I have 1 NFA gun, a SBR. I did it the individual rout. It was easey enough and I had no problems.
However now I think a NFA trust may be thw way to go for the future.
My reasons are:
include spouse
Brothers who are in the military and deployed like to have my build them things while they are deployed, now the want SBRs, Suppressors. I can't make or have those in my possession if they are the owner.
other brothers are now getting interested in NFA.

Can I setup a trust to include parents, brothers & spouses even if some live in another state?

what would be the best way to go about this. Any one have experience with Quicken will maker?

Thanks
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Old June 16, 2012, 22:09   #2
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You should contact an attorney for that information......given the severity of the penalties if you are misguided by some know all on an internet forum!
Just my opinion!!
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Old June 16, 2012, 23:18   #3
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The TRUST must be funded for the body (posessions) of the Trust to be protedted (in any aspect) that means title must transfer in a manner prescribed by law in case of a Title II Firearm thatrequires a FORM 4.

IF FORM 4 IS IN YOUR NAME NOW YOU HAVE TO TRANSFER IT ON A FORM 4 TO THE TRUST.

a BANK ACCOUNT, CASH A CAR A PIECE OF PROPERTY DOES NOT REQUIRE A FORM 4, TITLE II FIREARM DOES.
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Old June 17, 2012, 11:34   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjpjr View Post
You should contact an attorney for that information......given the severity of the penalties if you are misguided by some know all on an internet forum!
Just my opinion!!
Good advice - esp. with others not being in same state.

I went LLC for last several can's so wife can go play.
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Old June 17, 2012, 11:47   #5
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This topic needs a sticky with bulletproof hard info. Lot of misinformation on the 'legal fiction' that is what a trust is comprised of. The trust needs to be built with some very specific directions and nuances to handle NFA items.

Lawyers see this as a work product and are reluctant to post up good 'boiler plates' of the verbiage required. I don't blame them at all for this. It is after all, what they do for a living.
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Old June 17, 2012, 15:16   #6
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Good advice - esp. with others not being in same state.

I went LLC for last several can's so wife can go play.
"IF" I understand correctly the potential Prob with LLC or CORP is that if/when the LLC or CORP is dissolved so must go the NFA items requiring another transfer..

I think the TRUST is the best option as one can pretty much assure (as assured as can be) that he decides what happens to the items down the road. With a TRUST I can predetermine who gets my stuff and make sure it stays in the family so to speak. With the S/O sign-off you get the item in your name but it must be transferred AGAIN later on to your heirs..

My big concern with this is the possibility of transfers being disallowed at some point putting the NFA items in limbo or worse..

This topic is of interest to me as well as I am currently debating options. It would be great if someone really knowledgeable on NFA trusts could/would chime in..
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Old June 17, 2012, 17:13   #7
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Originally Posted by DYNOMIKE View Post
"IF" I understand correctly the potential Prob with LLC or CORP is that if/when the LLC or CORP is dissolved so must go the NFA items requiring another transfer..

I think the TRUST is the best option as one can pretty much assure (as assured as can be) that he decides what happens to the items down the road. With a TRUST I can predetermine who gets my stuff and make sure it stays in the family so to speak. With the S/O sign-off you get the item in your name but it must be transferred AGAIN later on to your heirs..

My big concern with this is the possibility of transfers being disallowed at some point putting the NFA items in limbo or worse..

This topic is of interest to me as well as I am currently debating options. It would be great if someone really knowledgeable on NFA trusts could/would chime in..
I do not trust them for the long term. There needs to be litigation in the courts to find out what may happen.

On the other hand, you have to be inventive to have things in your possession that are otherwise illegal.



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Old June 17, 2012, 18:05   #8
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Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I have 1 NFA gun, a SBR. I did it the individual rout. It was easey enough and I had no problems.
However now I think a NFA trust may be thw way to go for the future.
My reasons are:
include spouse
Brothers who are in the military and deployed like to have my build them things while they are deployed, now the want SBRs, Suppressors. I can't make or have those in my possession if they are the owner.
other brothers are now getting interested in NFA.

Can I setup a trust to include parents, brothers & spouses even if some live in another state?

what would be the best way to go about this. Any one have experience with Quicken will maker?

Thanks
The trust in theory owns the weapon. The trustees, 'members' of the trust are 'supposed' to be able to possess the weapon according to popular lore.

My question is unless you are the trustee, how do you get the ability to possess the weapon?????

Get your local Sheriff, Chief of Police or county Magistrate to sign off. That is the fool proof way to possess.
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Old June 17, 2012, 21:55   #9
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by DABTL View Post

My question is unless you are the trustee, how do you get the ability to possess the weapon?????
Properly the deed of Trust should specify the specic circumstances under which the TRUSTEE delivers posession of any item or portion of the property which constitutes any portion of the corpus of the trust TO any PARTY FOR any REASON, BUT MOST PARTICULARLY THE BENEFICIARIES OF THE TRUST.

Quote:
Get your local Sheriff, Chief of Police or county Magistrate to sign off. That is the fool proof way to possess.
The trust MAY but should not be used merely as a method to by-pass the cleo sign-off, and that should not be its primary purpose. If it is a purpose for establishing the trust then that purpose should NEVER be rendered null by obtaining the signoff. The reorganization of the registry has been announced and the new procedures eliminate the CLEO sign-off from the FORM 4 anyway (expected this summer) after that change occurs where will the sign-off take place that will bear any relevance to the registry??? It is very important to consult your State Constitution as some SPECIFY who the CLEO is, since the ATF Regs DO NOT, you could be running headlong into a hornets nest, by picking one (hint in LA read CONST. ART. V SEC 27)
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Old June 18, 2012, 01:48   #10
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Find an attorney that specializes in NFA trusts. Not all attorneys know what or how to set up an NFA trust.

Quote:
My question is unless you are the trustee, how do you get the ability to possess the weapon?
According to the attorney that set up my trust, anyone that is physically with a trustee may use the weapon, because the item is still considered in the control of the trustee. That means if you're at the range with non-trustees and go to the head, the NFA item must be locked up until you're done.

No one but a trustee may use or possess the weapon on their own.

Dan
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Old June 18, 2012, 19:06   #11
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If the trustee is the only one who may possess and anyone with the trustee may possess with the trustee's oversight, what is the difference in paying the $200 tax? None.

It is much simpler to approach your local law enforcement or Judge for an endorsement of your character.

If you do not know them, meet them. My Sheriff wants to see your concealed weapons license, check your criminal history and wants some references. Then he signs.

If, however, you want to pay a lawyer some money to do the same thing, contact me. I should just as well take your money as anyone.
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Old June 19, 2012, 22:50   #12
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My attorney told me that a trust is a device that allows you to distribute your possessions in the trust to your beneficiaries. That is how it must be setup. It isn't just a way to get multiple people to have NFA items. In my case, that is exactly what I wanted. Once both my wife and I are gone, the items in the NFA trust can pass to the beneficiaries. According to my attorney, they have 20 years to get it all cleaned up and transfer the items out of the trust and end it. They can either transfer to themselves, their trust, or sell for money. Trust also specifies a person to act as the administrator of the trust once the trustees are gone. It is their job to make sure NFA items are distributed as specified and according to law.

The good thing about a trust is if something did happen to me - death or disabled, then the people in the trust can handle the NFA items and take care of selling or transferring as needed. If it is just a single person owning an NFA item, then according to my attorney, no one else can touch or have access to that item until it is cleared with ATF.

For the price, I would never try to create one myself. Use an attorney who can set it up strictly for NFA items and cover your ass plus he told me that ATF is starting to reject some homegrown trusts.
True only of a TESTEMENTARY TRUST, a trust established for property distribution on death.

Not at all true of any INTER VIVOS TRUST, a TRUST like a corporation is a type of JURIDICAL PERSON (NON-NATURAL PERSON) which may in fact be established FOR ANY LEGAL PURPOSE not at all restricted to testementary purposes in any jurisdiction I am aware of.

TRUST law is complicated in the context of NFA by the fact that EVERY jurisdiction has its OWN body of written and case law on TRUSTS.

TRUSTS are an EGLISH COMMON LAW INVENTION while Louisiana and most all non-english tradition legal systems are based on CODE OF HAMMURABI, ROMAN CIVIL LAW, AND THE CODE NAPOLEON (LOUISISANAS CIVIL cODE STILL CONTAINS TEXT TODAY COPIED DIRECTLY FROM ROMAN CIVIL CODE) Most Spanish, French, Latin Speaking Countries all operate under a Civil Law Regime which governs THE OWNERSHIP OF THINGS.

Then all states and DC have their own TITLE II criminal code provisions and the Feds have the NFA and all must come together like jazz fusion like to play well together at the saame time in the same place.

Using a pre-written fit all wordprocessor trust is begging for a loss of bucks and a prison term, don't do it.

Make sure any attorney you use has extensive experiece that they can document in practicing trust law in your state AND intimate familiarity with the NFA.
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Old June 20, 2012, 04:37   #13
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WAY WAY TOO MUCH HERESAY AND PURE BS ENTERING THIS CONVERSATION!


GET A LAWYER LISCENSED AND PRACTICING IN YOUR STATE DEMAND REFERENCES FROM CLIENTS WHO HAVE ESTABLISHED INTER
VIVOS TRUSTS FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF PROPERTY.


QUIZ HIM EXTENSIVELY ON HIS KNOWLEDGE OF NFA STATUTES REGULATIONS AND PROCEDURES A FED STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS.

CHECK HIS REFERENCES AGAIN.

YOU ARE GOING TO DO THE TIME IN JAIL AND HAVE YOUR PROPERTY SEIZED NOT HIM

CHECK HIS HISTORY WITH HIS ERRORS AND OMMISSIONS UNDERWRITERS AND THE DISCIPLANARY COUNSEL OF THE STATE AND LOCAL BAR BEFORE GIVING HIM A NICKEL ORM 5 MINS OF YOUR TIME!
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Old June 19, 2012, 18:36   #14
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Hmm,

That beater A1 has seen some miles its a shame they put that crappy Detroit weird 2/4 cycle motor in them. Send it back to FMC and get the A2 or A3 upgrades done. Hell you could probably buy the parts and do it yourself. That ain't yours is it Bill?

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Old June 24, 2012, 20:25   #15
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I had my lawyer (former Asst. District Atty) now in Private Parctice,
do mine. He's an NFA enthusiast also and understands the legal aspects
of the "NFA" Trust. One thing he said was important was not to name the
Trust "The Smith Family" Trust for instance as previously mentioned it could
be confusing if they ever undid anything with regard to the registry, so the
Trust should be Your Name. His fee ranged from $350 when I had mine done
a couple years ago.
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Old June 24, 2012, 22:51   #16
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I had my lawyer (former Asst. District Atty) now in Private Parctice,
do mine. He's an NFA enthusiast also and understands the legal aspects
of the "NFA" Trust. One thing he said was important was not to name the
Trust "The Smith Family" Trust for instance as previously mentioned it could
be confusing if they ever undid anything with regard to the registry, so the
Trust should be Your Name. His fee ranged from $350 when I had mine done
a couple years ago.
An excellent example of how case law can affect TRUST Law! There is probably case where a court found in a testementary case that the naming of a trust expressed intent or that became a major issue litigated.

Here in Louisiana I have not found any such issue but we are a civil law jurisdiction and issues stand on their own much more than they are affected by the descisions other courrts make in other cases in common law jurisdictions like Texas.

But even here the point is well-taken unless you are establishing a testementary trust specifically to handle disposition or management long term of a family owned estate consisting primarily of real property.

As an example one lottery winner, a very well-known prominent attorney and long-time lobbyist claimed her winnings in the name of "THE DUCHESS TRUST." A made up name like that is fine and does avoid claims later that the grantor assigned a name with particular intent.
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Old June 25, 2012, 06:27   #17
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It's less confusing for sure. I would suggest not using any sort of do it yerself
methods regarding NFA stuff, the wait is excessive for the time being and any
cause for rejection is a major one. All you need to do is find a reputable NFA
Dealer and get some recommendations for Trust Lawyers, listen to what they
say and compare services, do they do transfers? are they in the Bizness? if
they are chances are they know the pifalls.
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Old June 25, 2012, 17:15   #18
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Thumbs down

OLE dabtl IS JUST TRYING TO LIVE UP TO THE JUVENILE STANDARDS SET BY HIS FRIENDS IN LOW PLACES:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...n-agreements-/



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Old June 30, 2012, 15:53   #19
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Dabs, - I'm going on what the attorney told me when the trust was set up. I don''t know if there is a difference in trusts between NFA specific trusts and other types of trusts. This attorney specializes in NFA trusts, and so I believe him when he explains things to me.

Gunsmoke, - Thanks for the kind words. My wife and family are the other trustees, and they already know the current value of a lot of my collection. More importantly they know that the values will change over the years, and they know who to contact to get a fair appraisal of all my guns when it will be needed.

I recommend that everyone be honest with their families and to give them a list of people they can contact to get fair appraisals.

Dan

PS this will be my first NFA item so NFA is new to me. That's why I listen to the attorney who specializes in this field.

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Old March 26, 2013, 22:27   #20
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Another thing to think about is to find a good friend who has paid an attorney for an NFA trust, copy it word for word changing the names only. It takes quite a bit of time to type out 15 to 20 pages but hell we're talking about saving $600 dollars of fiat. Besides what you get is an attorney drafted Trust but in your name. It at least sounds good conceptually.
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Old June 22, 2013, 02:38   #21
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Another thing to think about is to find a good friend who has paid an attorney for an NFA trust, copy it word for word changing the names only. It takes quite a bit of time to type out 15 to 20 pages but hell we're talking about saving $600 dollars of fiat. Besides what you get is an attorney drafted Trust but in your name. It at least sounds good conceptually.
My trust is copy righted....
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Old September 01, 2013, 15:21   #22
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Hey, gunsmoke, how is all that getting a trust from a reputable lawyer working out for you?
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Old September 06, 2013, 19:37   #23
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http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/09/02...posal-atf-41p/
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Old September 07, 2013, 07:22   #24
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'using a trust or other fictitious legal entity'

Read the blog, first. Act in haste and repent at your leisure. That is all I have to say.
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