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Old October 14, 2019, 12:32   #201
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TR -

What are those 75 gr. PPU BTHPs going for these days? Is it notably cheaper than, say, a Hornady of the same type?

Or were you jumping on those as 'over runs' or 'sale items' on Wideners? That's what I used to do with those 155 gr. OTMs for .308 on Wideners - wait until they were "on sale". I think I was getting a FAL-specific match bullet with cannelure for $150/thousand.
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Old October 14, 2019, 13:24   #202
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https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/12602



................
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Old October 14, 2019, 17:01   #203
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I'm seeing $0.16 for the Serbian stuff, and $0.18 for the Hornady stuff.

IF the Hornady product has a good jacket (per W.E.G.'s other thread...), then I'll happily pay $0.02/rd. for:

1. Made in the U.S.A.

2. cannelure


...neither of which the Serbs are delivering for 0.16/rd.

I dunno, but I'm going to ask the guys at Hornady what the story is when I go there at the end of the month.
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Old October 14, 2019, 18:54   #204
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I'm seeing $0.16 for the Serbian stuff, and $0.18 for the Hornady stuff.

IF the Hornady product has a good jacket (per W.E.G.'s other thread...), then I'll happily pay $0.02/rd. for:

1. Made in the U.S.A.

2. cannelure


...neither of which the Serbs are delivering for 0.16/rd.

I dunno, but I'm going to ask the guys at Hornady what the story is when I go there at the end of the month.
$.14 cents when ordering 1k.

Why do you need a cannelure?

Didn’t WEG have problems with the Amax bullet?
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Old October 14, 2019, 19:09   #205
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$.14 cents when ordering 1k.

Why do you need a cannelure?
Yeah.

A cannelure on a match bullet ? To do what ?


Grafs shows 143.91 per K, + 9.95 shipping for internet orders.


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Old October 14, 2019, 21:15   #206
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$.14 cents when ordering 1k.

Why do you need a cannelure?

Didn’t WEG have problems with the Amax bullet?

3. Could be. I didn't know that, but I didn't read the whole thread.

1. That's good to know. $9.95 shipping is pretty bad ass, too.

2. Because I like them. It's like the seams on the back of stockings: some guys don't give a damn, and some guys actually do. I'm in the second group.


Also: because I'm an Operator. Didn't you all read the top of this thread?!? Do I have to do everything around here?
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Old October 14, 2019, 21:55   #207
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2. Because I like them. It's like the seams on the back of stockings: some guys don't give a damn, and some guys actually do. I'm in the second group.
Kindred spirit....
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Old October 14, 2019, 21:57   #208
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....... Because I like them. It's like the seams on the back of stockings: some guys don't give a damn, and some guys actually do. I'm in the second group.

I've always liked those kind of high heels.......nononono, don't take em off...leave them on...



......
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Old October 14, 2019, 23:34   #209
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3. Could be. I didn't know that, but I didn't read the whole thread.

1. That's good to know. $9.95 shipping is pretty bad ass, too.

2. Because I like them. It's like the seams on the back of stockings: some guys don't give a damn, and some guys actually do. I'm in the second group.


Also: because I'm an Operator. Didn't you all read the top of this thread?!? Do I have to do everything around here?
You wear skinny jeans.

Sorry, but you lose Operator status.
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Old October 15, 2019, 01:22   #210
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I don't think they're skinny jeans. I think they're the old 'boot cut' or something like that.

But yeah, they ain't bell bottoms. I don't have Robert Plant's hair or Lemmy's mustache to be able to pull those bad boys off...
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

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Old October 15, 2019, 01:23   #211
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Kindred spirit....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdb59
I've always liked those kind of high heels.......nononono, don't take em off...leave them on...

Damn right.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 15, 2019, 07:39   #212
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Old October 15, 2019, 07:52   #213
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Still waiting on a SuckScope verdict

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Old October 15, 2019, 10:46   #214
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1. Just got the low-budget Vortex in, along with the PSA kit. I fear my NoBeto lowers will take somewhat longer to show since it was a pre-order thing.

2. Just got an adjustable LOP stock in from Luth AR to increase my distance from Suck Scope. I'll show some photos, but there are clear problems with the design - which I'm probably not the first to notice.

3. Prolly will shoot, photo, and report this week.

4. Photo of woman above is what ahm talkin' 'bout.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 15, 2019, 10:55   #215
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Everybody wants some......


...that's it...a little more to the right...


................
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Old October 15, 2019, 11:26   #216
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Stilettos like that can leave scars...

Ah, er, well, so I've heard...

Forrest
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Old October 15, 2019, 12:10   #217
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Stilettos like that can leave scars...

Ah, er, well, so I've heard...

Forrest
Relevant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQBxDdEh15g
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Old October 15, 2019, 12:21   #218
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Everybody wants some......


...that's it...a little more to the right...


................
Nice.

DLR was the greatest frontman of the decade.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 17, 2019, 14:22   #219
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Okay: Van Halen, hot girls in stockings, and various 'match' ammo opportunities aside, we don't want to let this epic flame-war lose its nearly magical momentum...


I mounted the Luth AR long stock on the Noveske + USO rifle. It's ready to go.

I mounted the $300 scope in the $50 Chinese mount and got it set up on the PSA upper. Rather than wait for the lower to show up 7 or 8 weeks from now, I'm going to borrow a complete PSA lower from another gun (Jonathan's): it is brand new normal PSA stuff, so is the exact thing I've got waiting with the one exception that he's got a plastic MagPul stock (CTR) instead of the plastic PSA stock in the picture. It also means we can get to the all-important duel right away.

First range day is Saturday morning. My thought is to do 100 yard sight-in and 100 yard groups with various ammo types: 55 gr. M193, 62 gr. M855, and 75 gr. BTHP 'match' (Hornady and/or Frontier - depending on price and availability...).


Another day will be 200 yards. Then I've got to go to a different range (Hi, Otis!) and get out to 300, 400, and 500.


I, for one, am glad that the rain has started earlier than normal this year.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 17, 2019, 14:27   #220
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Pix (and vids) with the Raiders sticker on it, or it didn't happen
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Old October 17, 2019, 18:05   #221
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I may enter into this fracas but will pull in stock parts from my parts lockers. I have a $49 mystery barrel that says 5.56 1:7 and that is it. It is 16" long and threaded 1/2x28 and has a phosphate finish of some sort. I also have a 14.7" AR Stoner barrel purchased in a pair when Midway was having a blow out sale for ~$50 each. Also have three 18" CHF 1:7 stainless Palmetto barrels which retailed for $289 and occasionally went on sale and dropped to $89 for about thirty minutes during one of Palmettos after Christmas sales about four or five years ago and purchased five of which already built two into poor man's Mk 12 quasi-clones Last option is have several new take off barrels from where people purchased a complete rifle at LGS then had us put an upgraded barrel and free float forearm on it before it left the shop along with mounting and bore sighting a scope. Which of the barrels would be best for this competition?

For premium barrels I have a new White Oak Armament 5.56 Wylde 1:7 in 16" and 18" along with a Bartlein 1:6.5 18" tube profiled by Compass Lake Engineering and a Noveske 16" 1:7 that I can think of off the top of my head without digging. Sure there is another premium 5.56 tube or two in the locker it's just digging through along with looking in back corners of vaults as have a tendency to stick spare barrels in voids.

For receivers will buy a pair of Anderson for the basic build and use a set of DPMS Lo Pro receivers for the premium or SWAT Firearms billet receiver set. Can use a generic milspec trigger in the basic and a Hiperfire 24E on the premium so both will have single stage triggers. Will use a take off stock from an M&P 15 on the basic and use a SIG carbon fiber A2 stock on the premium. Both will get milspec full auto M16 bolt carriers then a basic Carpenter 158 on the basic and an LMT on the premium. Then pull appropriate forearms and glass will be last choice. Thinking a $239 Nikon for the cheap build and use a Vortex Viper PST for the premium.

Will have to finish projects on the bench then probably be a winter project to build the two rifles using same techniques from squaring uppers to torque values. Will likely be spring before I am up and testing unless I just pull one of my sub $100 or sub $200 builds from mostly take off parts and the closest premium rifle to same barrel length already in vault with only a function test, sight in then cleaned and put away. Have a multitude of them but think it's best to build a pair side by side as similar as possible except for price of parts.
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Old October 17, 2019, 23:02   #222
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Pix (and vids) with the Raiders sticker on it, or it didn't happen
True, and you know it.

Pics up after the Saturday morning warm up.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 17, 2019, 23:05   #223
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I may enter into this fracas ...

Will have to finish projects on the bench then probably be a winter project to build the two rifles using same techniques from squaring uppers to torque values. Will likely be spring before I am up and testing...
It's all good. We can easily keep up the hate in this thread until the spring.

I'll probably piss off a buncha people just with my shooting and commentary. Then, when I tell them to go shoot themselves...














































... as in 'they themselves can go shoot'... they're going to get REALLY pissed.

Then there's the whole Raiders Sticker making the 'David' gun better and more accurate than the 'Goliath' gun. That's really gonna twist some knickers.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 18, 2019, 07:47   #224
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Just to up the hate ante since not a sports fan may put a Chevy sticker on the cheap build and a Mopar sticker on my premium build. That should rankle some fur. May put both Ford and Chevy decals on the cheap build since 1/2 the folks who build up a junkyard Ford into a hotrod drop a Chevy 350 crate motor in it. A friend did this recently and could not understand why he pulled the original numbers matching Ford straight six and bought a Chevy 350 drop-in kit. He didn't even keep his numbers matching engine in case some future caretaker wanted to put it back original but sold it for $150 on CraigsList. He is only riding it to shows and personally would prefer to pop the hood on a numbers matching car as will never be able to go back now that he sold to original motor and scrapped the transmission.

For fairness does the cheap build get a Chinese free float forearm or use a front sight tower and a milspec set of handgrips. Seems lIke it would unfairly hobble the cheap build unless used a Service Rifle free float hanguard system which is added expense then makes the handguards just an OEM look free float system. Have to think these builds through so that they are as similar as possible except for price of parts. My guess is retail value of parts for the premium rifle to totalk $1,100 to $1,400 and inexpensive under $500 as not going to go overly cheap on bolt, carrier and a few other parts as like HPT/MPI and known quality steel in the parts that hold the pressure from venting a steel part into my face. Not going to use a polymer lower either as have managed to not build one yet and this project isn't going to start me down that road.

Also not going to use a BSA or similar super low quality scope as would unfairly hobble the cheap build but do have some unbranded or unheard of brand scopes taken off rifles have purchased used. Seems to be fair magnification needs to be similar on both scopes as a Vortex PST 5-25x next to a Nikon 3-9x even on similar rifles is going to unfairly give an advantage. Dramatic pause while do a side search on scopes... can get a Athalon 3-15x scope for $149 and Vortex PST 3-15x for $649. Found a "made in Vietnam" scope under a brand have never seen for $129 in a 4-16x but have at least heard of Athalon scopes and they have 3-15x scopes from $149 to $349 and will see how much of their $349 scope filters down into the $149 version. At some point will be interesting to swap the scopes on the two rifles and see how much advantage the Viper added to the test.

Unless the scope walks on the cheap build my guess is the full blown rifle will be a 1/2 to 1 MOA rifle based on the various ammo test with and the cheap build will group 1 to 2 MOA based on ammo and whether get a total crap barrel. I do have a couple sub $200 and several sub $400 builds with only real money spent being on a clearance barrel from Black Friday and after Christmas sales that shoot sub MOA with good ammo and mostly take off parts. Was a time had over a dozen Smith M&P 15 slick side uppers from people who purchased them when LGS was selling for $399 then ordered Palmetto forward assist uppers and had the store or me personally swap out the slick side upper for the forward assist upper and would let me keep the slick side. They built some good shooters with Palmetto $89 and $99 clearance barrels.

Another member sent me a link to an unbranded 20" Hbar barrel for $89 that claims they are over runs from a major manufacturer and top quality barrels but can't name the maker. Just marked 5.56 1:7 and nothing else. Could be a good excuse to try the $89 Hbar but then will have to buy a premium 20" tube which don't think I have already paid for but can't ever have too many Hbar's in the fleet. Guess I will start pilfering parts lockers, watching sales and try to find matching spec parts at opposite ends of the price spectrum and see what comes off the build bench come spring. Documenting all the hand fitting of parts will be a chore as no way I will drop a milspec trigger in without squaring and honing all engagement surfaces along with adding a JP 3.5 Enhanced Reliability Spring Kit. $9.99 for the spring kit and an hours labor to drop trigger pull by close to half is something I can't skip.
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Old October 18, 2019, 20:52   #225
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Unless the scope walks on the cheap build my guess is the full blown rifle will be a 1/2 to 1 MOA rifle based on the various ammo test with and the cheap build will group 1 to 2 MOA based on ammo and whether get a total crap barrel...
Big difference between a 1/2MOA gun and a 1MOA gun. 1MOA should be repeatable with good components and the right ammo - even without truing various faces, etc.

Repeatable 1/2 MOA takes a real shooter behind the gun - unless you're tying it to a sled. Also takes the right ammo 'matched' to the gun.

I'm hoping that the Goliath gun is 1MOA, and that the David gun is 1.5 or better. Then the hatred will flow. Until one of the guns craps the bed - and THEN the howling will really start.
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Old October 19, 2019, 17:35   #226
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With 52 grain SMK handloads this rifle is a solid 1/2 MOA shooter from a solid bench using my Caldwell front rifle rest and a leather rear bag which the leather bag on the rifle rest and the rear bag which cradles the but are both filled with #8 lead shot. I only use a Leadsled when sighting in a heavy recoiling rifle but don't have any repeaters that need a Leadsled. If was doing an endurance test on one of my 338 Federal AR 10's or M1 30-06 might use a lead sled for a portion of the rifle torture test.

The below rifle has a 24" White Oak Armament 5.56 Wylde 1:12 twist tubes profiled from Shilen air gauged blanks. Have a pair of these barrels in 1:12 and a pair in 1:8. All four are 1/2 MOA capable with proper loads. May have to build a load at the bench to each particular rifle but can get 1/2 MOA from most of my heavy White Oak barrels that are 20" or longer. If put a $400 plus retail barrel on an AR and cant build a 1/2 MOA load for it or find a premium factory round that will get there may be something wrong. Both ARs pictured and mentioned in this thread have 2.25 to 2.5 pound triggers.



Opps, hit submit instead of preview so two more rifles coming quickly.

This rifles heart is a 20" White Oak Armament profiled HBAR 1:7.7 Kreiger tube. At $470 retail would be upset if this barrel didn't shoot exceptional. Combined with line bored heavy billet receiver set and all the nice stuff inside it will nest five rounds of my 69 grain SMK handloads into 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Currently is sporting a Leupold Mk AR 4-12x which again strains my eyes but when did initial testing had a Vortex with 24x top magnification which made it easy from my rest and bags. Use a Caldwell front rifle rest and leather rear bag and the bag on the rifle rest and rear bag are both filled with #8 lead shot instead of sand. Heavy to carry to the bench but are rock solid to shoot from.



This home built 10/22 will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards using either Eley Tenex or SK Long Range Match in zero wind conditions. Will almost make 1 MOA with CCI Green Tag but not quite. It does help to swap off the Nikon 4-12x squirrel chasing glass to a 24x scope but have a couple friends with better eyes can hold 1 MOA with it consistently using the inexpensive Nikon glass and even I find all five round in one inch using the 12x glass.

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Old October 19, 2019, 20:41   #227
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Scope mounting / sighting in for the "David" and "Goliath"

Goliath shooting 55 gr. M193 FMJ



First group = 2" group

Second group = Bad scope change. Wrong direction & off the paper.

Third group = 1 1/4" + giant flyer

Fourth group = tiny little group + tiny flyer. Looks like it might be a good shooter even with cheapo M193...
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Old October 19, 2019, 20:53   #228
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PSA carbine / "David" shooting 55 gr. M193 FMJ




Group 1 = First three out of the gun. Not bad. Made scope adjustment

Group 2 = 1 1/2" group + called flyer. Not bad.

Group 3 = Great first shot. Middle of the string, the scope decided to 'take' the adjustment in a different direction.

Group 4 = Scope 'held' the adjustment. 1 1/2" in group. Not bad - and not that different than the 'Goliath' gun....
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Old October 19, 2019, 21:16   #229
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Goliath shooting Hornady 75 gr. BTHP 'match':




Decent group: pretty sure I closed my eyes / 'lunged' at the flyer at 12 o'clock. That's it. Ran out of match ammo, and Sportsman Warehouse didn't have any.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 19, 2019, 21:32   #230
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"David" shooting the same Hornady 75 gr. match.



No change to scope, so 1.25" group at 1:30 on the target.

Over-change to scope; second group 1.5" group at 7:30 on the target.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

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Old October 19, 2019, 21:54   #231
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I just ordered a set of rings for the retard / cheeseball carbinerifel.....


....mebbe sum assembly will occur tamarrah.




...........
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Old October 19, 2019, 22:22   #232
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Psst. I think you might be missing more than the rings there.
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Old October 19, 2019, 22:24   #233
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Psst. I think you might be missing more than the rings there.
Oh ! Yeah.....the handguard ring again.....






...........................
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Old October 19, 2019, 22:39   #234
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First Day Summary...

Scope adjustment for the Chin-made Vortex = Not That Repeatable. The 'clicks' are more audible than 'tactile', and they are small and slightly mushy. Once the scope 'took' the adjustment, it hung in there. I'm also going to say that this scope at 6x is WAY easier to shoot than the US Optics at 8x due to the reticle, the "forgiveness" of the eye box, and the (related) focus of reticle & sight picture. The Vortex reticle is the "horseshoe" on BDC. It's got a decently 'sharp' aiming point above the BDC ladder, so it's kinda thick, but it doesn't obstruct most of the picture. All in all, it's pretty easy to shoot, and the glass on the $300 scope is AT LEAST equal to the glass on the $2800 scope. That's a great comment about Vortex, and it's another comment about USO...



The US Optics "christmas tree" reticle is too fine at 1x and 2x (can barely see it - especially since it doesn't illuminate - and is a little too thick at 8x. It has a full crosshair through the middle of the center circle, which obscures small aiming points (red target dots). The brightness of the glass is okay. For the money, you'd think that it would be amazing. It is not. On top of that, the US Optics scope adjusts "backwards" from Vortex, and does NOT have any 'direction' markers on the knob. This is the American version of HK - where you should just 'automatically' remember their way of doing stuff because "US Optics". They suck - but not just because of their average glass and their not-that-good reticle AND their reticle illumination problems AND their shit customer service...

The scope design sucks. The 'bell' for the objective is right at the control box - which is far forward. This means that the scope hangs WAY back in the scope mount. You can't move the "extended" and "hyper-extended" scope mounts far enough forward because it will run over and 'bridge' the receiver-to-handguard seam. On top of this - or maybe related to this design flaw - the eye box is super unforgiving on this scope. It is super easy to get out of position, and I was always working to 'get back' to the scope position to see out of it. In the end, my eyes have felt tired shooting this scope each time I've been on it - even with relatively short shooting sessions (1 hour).

This isn't a straight apples-to-apples comparison with the other scope picture, because this is at 2x so you can actually see the reticle. It's a FFP, so the reticle gets larger as the magnification goes up. I didn't have much hope of getting a good photo while holding the rifle in one hand and the phone in the other if it were at 8x. Meanwhile, also look at the edge-to-edge distortion at only 2x....



"David" is the PSA kit. Standard, run-of-the-mill PSA kit with 1:7 gov't profile barrel and oval hand guards. Not free floated. Didn't seem to matter a whole lot - though I didn't fire a lot of rounds - and I was only shooting at 100 yards. Shot 1.5MOA with the two 5-shot group of 75 gr. match. It has a REALLY crappy trigger. So bad that it almost doesn't reset - but rather hangs up until I 'bump' it forward. It also has a gritty pull that hangs up half-way through the travel. It accidentally acts like a two-stage trigger: it isn't. I think the gun shoots much better if it ends up getting a better trigger OR I actually try to smooth out the contact surfaces.



"Goliath" is the Noveske-parts rifle. Not in love yet. Mostly because the scope is so hard to like. May end up testing this rifle with another cheaper / better scope.

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Old Yesterday, 07:10   #235
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Nice feet......but no cigar or whisky in a glass.....
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Old Yesterday, 14:36   #236
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Don't drink or smoke, so I'm in short supply.

I'd say Round 1 goes to David. It looks to me like it makes the same size groups as the expensive rifle when shooting 75 gr. match.

This day (yesterday) was mostly about getting the rifles sighted in and 'confirmed'. Next weekend the serious shooting will begin.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old Yesterday, 17:43   #237
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Next weekend the serious shooting will begin.
Oh really?
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Old Yesterday, 18:27   #238
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Wanna shoot next weekend?
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old Yesterday, 18:28   #239
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Wanna shoot next weekend?
Yes.





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Old Yesterday, 18:36   #240
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This might shape up into something.

I'm probably going to put bigger/better glass on the different rifles. It's not like a 6x scope is how you test the inherent accuracy of a rifle at 400 or 500. That's more a test of my eyeballs...
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Old Yesterday, 18:37   #241
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I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned my television / scope photos.

I'd like to point out that I was holding the rifle in one hand, and my camera in the other. Managed to take the picture / put the shot in the proper location for where each person was walking/running.

IJS...
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old Yesterday, 18:41   #242
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I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned my television / scope photos.

I'd like to point out that I was holding the rifle in one hand, and my camera in the other. Managed to take the picture / put the shot in the proper location for where each person was walking/running.

IJS...
We couldn't see the unicycle you were riding up the stairs, so we weren't as impressed as you were....



........................
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Old Yesterday, 18:53   #243
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Wanna shoot next weekend?
Quote:
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Yes.





.....................
Ummm, DUH.
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Old Yesterday, 19:46   #244
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4x401, didn't I buy the free float handguard on the above pictured HBAR build from you? It was a bronze color before I showed it the O.D. Green Cerakote. Hard for me to assemble a rifle without some LGS takeoff, marketplace or otherwise found in the cabbage patch parts.
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Old Yesterday, 20:30   #245
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4x401, didn't I buy the free float handguard on the above pictured HBAR build from you? It was a bronze color before I showed it the O.D. Green Cerakote. Hard for me to assemble a rifle without some LGS takeoff, marketplace or otherwise found in the cabbage patch parts.
Well,,,
you did in fact purchase a full length FF forend from me sometime back. Whether that's the one I can't say. I'm happy it went to a good home.
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Old Yesterday, 20:40   #246
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First Day Summary...

blah, blah, blah...
I also think it's going to need to break down the "accuracy" part and the "reliability" part and the "optics" part.

I think I'm going to put a bigger and/or better scope on these rifles (same scope = same test). Then, after I figure out some multiple number of 'runs' at 100, 200, 300, and 500 (or whatever...) for the accuracy test, then I'll put whatever on each one (like an ACOG on the PSA kit) and shoot them a bunch for "reliability" test(-ish), since I'm not spending the money to properly murder each gun.

The optics test isn't really a test of the US Optics scope. It sucks by design, and that isn't exactly a comment about their highly tested and highly effective 5x25 offering from back in the day. But *that* company doesn't exist anymore, and the current company's customer service and ability to stand behind products sucks. The real test is of the $300 Vortex and the (incoming) $250 Primary Arms offerings. I'd love to find out that $300 now buys thousands of rounds of reliability of reticle and clear glass - even if it doesn't buy a scope that can pass the Box Test. I mean, there's a reason that NF 1-8x ATACR is $2,800 and Schmidt und Bender are $4000...


Maybe after we beat them up, I'll go back and do an accuracy test again once a year or something.
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Old Yesterday, 20:56   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
.......derp.........bla....derp..


Maybe after we beat them up, I'll go back and do an accuracy test again once a year or something.
Like, an annual event, or something ?




That is a Super Idea !

Should we form a committee and settle on a date and location ?


...........













































........................

sorry, that is all the flak I can muster right now....

....................
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Old Yesterday, 21:17   #248
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This is my final answer for now:

Bag up front (not an ammo can rest)

Bag behind (i'm not as steady as I used to be)

3-12 scope with good reticle




Gonna move that set up straight over to the other gun's receiver and see what happens. Apples to apples comparison.
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Old Yesterday, 21:22   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
This is my final answer for now:

Bag up front (not an ammo can rest)

Bag behind (i'm not as steady as I used to be)

3-12 scope with good reticle




Gonna move that set up straight over to the other gun's receiver and see what happens. Apples to apples comparison.
Good idea. You can’t shoot for shit anyways.

And yes, pretty sure my weekend is open.
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Old Yesterday, 21:36   #250
brunop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdb59 View Post
Like, an annual event, or something ?

That is a Super Idea !


Should we form a committee and settle on a date and location ?
Locations to 500 yards that I know of are:

1. Benton County Elk's Club

2. Otis61's range (Big Timber in Siletz)

3. Rich's range (Douglas Ridge Rifle Club in Gresham (-ish)

4. COSSA (I'm not a member, and I'm not bloody likely to take their safety meeting this year...)

5. Pine Mountain

For this ongoing testing / beating up of rifles, I don't want net 4 to 6 hours of driving for 1 hour of shooting. For hanging out with this group, I'm TOTALLY up for 6 hours of driving. That being said, we have this late fall event coming up at the gravel pit....

I'm pretty sure we can get (nearly) 200 at the pit. 22 November is still a thing. I don't think I've got a full-day / long weekend in the next few weeks. So regarding this weekend...


TR, Terry, Rich, and anyone else that wants to come over Friday night, We'll make dinner if you can make it that early. I'm making eggs, bacon, french toast, and orange juice Saturday morning. I'm hoping to shoot from 0800 to 1100hrs. Meredith has a soccer game (home) at noon. Please feel free to hang around for dinner (burgers, I think) and then attend the Gratitude Jazz Band gig in downtown Corvallis at 1900hrs Saturday night. Meredith is singing for the entire gig, so prolly 2+ hours. Please feel free to spend the Saturday night, too. We're going to church at 1000hrs. Sunday morning. You are invited, or you can bail for home - obviously your choice.

Come or don't. But that's my story about shooting this weekend. I'd like it to be someplace better/drier/sunnier, but that's what I'm working with.


Edit to add: I think you all could stay at the range longer than 1100 while I left for the game if you wanted to spend your time there rather than at a soccer field. In fact, if this were the decision, I'd probably hustle right back to the range after the 90 minute game to catch up with you all.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

Last edited by brunop; Yesterday at 21:49.
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