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Old August 16, 2019, 21:48   #1
762gunr
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Ian's 7.62 AP Test

M8A1 certainly does NOT have a tungsten core. Actually VERY rare for AP(M80A1 is not AP) to have a tungsten core.
No Huey......we don't need your 4 paragraphs of how badass you thing M80A1 is
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Old August 16, 2019, 22:41   #2
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The “tungsten” and “true AP” comments ruined the chance that You might think that they know what they were talking about.

The steel (not that hard) in the M80A1 is there because the Govt HAD TO get the lead out of ball ammo. It isn’t AP of any designation. AP ammo was designed and utilized WAY before body armor was a thing.

You want to talk about AP ammo, or shoot it at something? Do not include “body armor” in the talk or test.

Shoot steel!
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Old August 16, 2019, 23:13   #3
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ROFLMAO.

I still have some Israeli 308AP that I bought from Federal Ordnance some 30 years ago.

Met the beaver there (leave it to beaver).


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No Huey......we don't need your 4 paragraphs of how badass you thing M80A1 is
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Old August 17, 2019, 06:24   #4
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The fluff article I read awhile back claimed the steel 'penetrator' used in m80a1 was up in the mid 50's HRC.
Thats pretty tough hardening and definitely not possible with anything like a 'mild' steel at all.

For comparison,,rifle barrel steel is usually hardened and drawn to mid to upper 30's HRC

Last edited by yovinny; August 17, 2019 at 06:31.
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Old August 17, 2019, 07:01   #5
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Huey is a bot, didn't you know?
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Old August 17, 2019, 08:07   #6
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Since war in Ukraine Russia has spent more on upgrading their helmets and body armor than U.S. and most of NATO have. When Ukraine troubles began their helmets could be defeated by 32 Auto and vests by any rifle round. Their new kits are some of the best in the world with another upgrade hitting the field next year that's supposed to be 5.56 resistant making our M4's obsolete. Got that from a dot gov website.

Russians are realizing the value of a soldier and stepping up their game with armor and weapons. They are buying huge numbers of 338 Lapa Mags from Sako and other top notch European vendors while working in their own in-house sniper systems. Have never claimed M80A1 or M855A1 to be magic but are better than rounds they replaced. Why we will see 5.56 fade away as polymer cased telescoping 6.8 is phased in.

I have shot NIJ 3 and NIJ 4 along with NIJ 3/ICW4 plates with all mentioned along with ro u nds they replaced and true AP. Have a handle on what happens and why I have swapped the plates in five of my personal kits to NIJ 4 stand alone with soft armor behind it. I don't believe everyone's tests on uTube. For a long time most were using M855A1 and M80A1 pull downs handloaded to what they assumed was an equivalent military round for uTube videos. Our best ammo tester on this board got his first real dot mil issue M80A1 from me. Call me lucky but seem to find stuff soon after it hits the field.

That said there are some companies making AP for LEO use that out perform any and all equivalent cartridge military AP. Much of it finds its way into the teams with scrubbed headstamps but not to regular field troops weapons.
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Old August 17, 2019, 08:42   #7
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Can't watch anything featuring the insufferable nerd and literal Church of Satan member Karl Kasarda.

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Old August 17, 2019, 09:31   #8
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WTF?
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Old August 17, 2019, 09:59   #9
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WTF?
Karl Kasarda of In Range TV is a card-carrying member of the Church of Satan. Don't believe me? Just Google "Karl Kasarda Church of Satan". There is even a video of him speaking at one of their Satanic temple meetings.

When he isn't interrupting Ian with his .02 cents worth of stupidity, he's praying to Lucifer and sitting on the lap of a Baphomet statue (pictured above).
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Old August 17, 2019, 14:39   #10
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Karl Kasarda of In Range TV is a card-carrying member of the Church of Satan. Don't believe me? Just Google "Karl Kasarda Church of Satan". There is even a video of him speaking at one of their Satanic temple meetings.

When he isn't interrupting Ian with his .02 cents worth of stupidity, he's praying to Lucifer and sitting on the lap of a Baphomet statue (pictured above).
That is very interesting. Nice Segway off topic but worth more then the two cents you charged for it. Looking at a stack of magazines next to me right now loaded with 5.56 that will defeat NIJ 4 at 100 yards and anther stack of 7.62×51 that will burn Level 4 at 200 yards. All I had to do was register as a corporate vendor with intent to resell and provide a letter from a local hick P.D. with five officers including the chief they wanted to demo the stuff.

Now I just click on the boxes wamt, go to my cart to check out and arrives on UPS in about a week. It's spendy but even the 7.62×39 will bust Level 3 out to 80 yards. Had to sign a contract would not share with anyone but Law Enforcement in an official demonstration to sell them on the product. Actuall gave the department a donation of 250 rounds of the 5.56 so can say have provided to law enforcement agency and since sold two 500 round boxes to other smaller local departments. Cops are getting scared of people like me with full armor kits and an agenda so may actually start trying to market this stuff more aggressively.

80A1 and M855A1 is just a better general purpose round that will bust older technology and cheap plates as a bonus. ISIS has all gotten so much armor our guys in the field needed a better round. I do not believe a "green" battlefield was primary motivation.
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Old August 17, 2019, 14:55   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
The fluff article I read awhile back claimed the steel 'penetrator' used in m80a1 was up in the mid 50's HRC.
Thats pretty tough hardening and definitely not possible with anything like a 'mild' steel at all.

For comparison,,rifle barrel steel is usually hardened and drawn to mid to upper 30's HRC
Quote:
Independent labs have tested value of*RHC 48-49 for the M80A1 penetrator, which is nearly as hard as tool steel, and is a rating very typical of actual armor piercing steel penetrators (as opposed to mild steel cores).*
Y'all watch devil worshiping pedophiles for your information and I will bust real military issue and police issue plates with the actual real deal ammo to for an opinion. Thus far have fired well over 50 rounds of M80a1 and over 100 of M855a1 at real targets from mild steel to AR 400, ceramic plates, Dyneema, concrete block and brick, plywood, pressure treated dimensional lumber, plus just plain old ballistic gelliten and sculpters clay to name a few. I know what happens but my legal advisor recommended not posting pictures as would keep me from testifying against myself with video evidence. The Firearms Blog was only able to get ten rounds after an official request from the government to test it. Ten rounds isn't much to do a comprehensive test.
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Old August 17, 2019, 16:31   #12
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The steel is in those A1 ball bullets because the lead HAD TO GO.
This was reported by the defense dept and much media buzz during the development of the replacement ball ammunition.

DEFENSE
Army's eco-friendly quest breeds more deadly bullet
Ariel Wittenberg, E&E News reporter
Greenwire: Monday, June 15, 2015
The Army set out to develop lead-free bullets to protect the environment. The finished product achieved that goal -- and produced the most lethal rifle round to date.

For the past five years, U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have been firing eco-friendly rifle bullets with greater ability to pierce protective shields and cause more bodily harm than the lead bullets they replaced.

"What started as a program to be more environmentally friendly became a significant upgrade in military small arms capability," Col. Glenn Dean, who helped develop the green bullet, wrote in his e-book on the experience, "In Search of Lethality."

Those at the Army's Picatinny Arsenal don't like to describe one bullet as more lethal than another.

"You don't want to get hit by either bullet," said small-caliber ammunition project manager Lt. Col. Todd Masternak of the Army's first green rifle round and its lead predecessor. "If you get hit by one or you get hit by the other and you don't receive timely medical treatment, you are just as dead”.
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Old August 17, 2019, 20:09   #13
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Army's eco-friendly quest breeds more deadly bullet....

The Army set out to develop lead-free bullets to protect the environment. The finished product achieved that goal -- and produced the most lethal rifle round to date.

Those at the Army's Picatinny Arsenal don't like to describe one bullet as more lethal than another.

"You don't want to get hit by either bullet," said small-caliber ammunition project manager Lt. Col. Todd Masternak of the Army's first green rifle round and its lead predecessor. "If you get hit by one or you get hit by the other and you don't receive timely medical treatment, you are just as dead”.
The guys at the Picatinny Arsenal have it correct. I love how the media and some professed ballistics/gun professionals talk about "more lethal" ammunition. I mean, if I shoot somebody with store bought ammo and kill them, and then I shoot somebody with this new "more lethal" bullet and kill them, are they more dead than the first guy? That is like the news media stating that somebody was killed in a fatal homicide.
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Old August 17, 2019, 20:13   #14
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What about 30 cal API pills? They seem more interesting with the tungsten core.
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Old August 17, 2019, 20:37   #15
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It's good they switched to steel core ammunition. We don't have any lead smelters.
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Old August 17, 2019, 20:49   #16
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What about 30 cal API pills? They seem more interesting with the tungsten core.
30-06?....7.62 NATO? Nope, HARD STEEL CORE. “Tungsten” is the most misused word...
Well, next to “virgin”.
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Old August 17, 2019, 23:00   #17
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I have only used the old flak jacket of the ‘80s, no plates kevlar only, wearing that sucked. I suppose wearing steel plate armor sucks just as bad or worse. The internet commandos mention wearing body armor like its just changing the color of your underwear.
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Old August 18, 2019, 01:50   #18
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This is what tungsten in 7.62 looks like.
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Old August 18, 2019, 08:33   #19
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I have only used the old flak jacket of the ‘80s, no plates kevlar only, wearing that sucked. I suppose wearing steel plate armor sucks just as bad or worse. The internet commandos mention wearing body armor like its just changing the color of your underwear.
My NIJ Level 4 plates weigh less than five pounds each. Entire kit with NIJ 3+ side panels, NIJ 4 front and rear, full coverage NIJ 3a soft armor under plates, two radios, IFAK, knife, light and six loaded magazines weighs under 25 pounds. Armor is not that heavy and wait till see the new U.S. tiered kits rolling out in 2020 with full groin, thigh and hip protection that is comfortable.
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Old August 18, 2019, 09:28   #20
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Old August 19, 2019, 18:24   #21
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I Dunno Nuttin about 308/7.62X51 AP ammo--BUT-----A Buddy once set up a section of snowplow cutting edge blade at 100 yds and shot it with WW-II Black tip 30.06 and it drilled neat 25 cal holes right through it =1 Inch thick,,
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Old August 22, 2019, 06:11   #22
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I Dunno Nuttin about 308/7.62X51 AP ammo--BUT-----A Buddy once set up a section of snowplow cutting edge blade at 100 yds and shot it with WW-II Black tip 30.06 and it drilled neat 25 cal holes right through it =1 Inch thick,,
I just know my M1's and all loaded enbloc clips are loaded with vintage 30-06 black tip which is cheap, easy to find, totally legal and gets the job done if need to drill holes.
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Old October 09, 2019, 15:30   #23
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Ah, thanks. I was wondering which Demonrat Prez candidate that was.

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Can't watch anything featuring the insufferable nerd and literal Church of Satan member Karl Kasarda.

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Old October 09, 2019, 23:11   #24
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I have verified the tip hardness of M80A1 as about 48-52 RHC, and M855A1 as 59-60 RHC. M855 from various sources tested anywhere from 49RHC to 54 RHC.

M80A1 will penetrate at NIJ distance most any level III+ plates, and you really need NIJ Level IV to stop it. I'm working on a subsonic test that shows what happens with it against a UHMWPE plate..




M993, which actually utilizes a tungsten core can be stopped by higher end plates at NIJ distance with under 22" barrel lengths. A realistic engagement of 75+ yards, NIJ level IV would likely stop M993. I have not tested 338 Lapua AP.


Here is a 06 Level IV against M993 and a 150gr tungsten core projectile

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Old October 10, 2019, 08:40   #25
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The new neighbor who uses a Remington 742 in 30-06 for home defense and number of M855A1 and M80A1 rounds appearing in the civilian realm is why all my personal overt kits are now NIJ 4. Only added about 2.5 pounds per kit but lightweight NIJ 4 plates are not easy to find on the cheap.
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Old October 17, 2019, 09:19   #26
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The new neighbor who uses a Remington 742 in 30-06 for home defense and number of M855A1 and M80A1 rounds appearing in the civilian realm is why all my personal overt kits are now NIJ 4. Only added about 2.5 pounds per kit but lightweight NIJ 4 plates are not easy to find on the cheap.
Both those rounds suck as armor penetrators. What's your infatuation with "enhanced penetration" rounds? Can you not own actual AP in your state?
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Old October 19, 2019, 07:35   #27
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5.56 that will defeat NIJ 4 at 100 yards
Hang on. What 5.56 will defeat level IV at 100m?

Because M995 won't even do that.
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Old October 21, 2019, 20:25   #28
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Just because you have a plate which stops the round doesn't mean you will just jump up and be back in the fight. The truma to the body is great. Ask any combat medic who served in Iraq. They will tell you plenty of guys died were a plate carrier stopped a round. Its called a hemo thorax. Plates don't make you bullet proof. Better to train hard and use cover than be hit.
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Old October 21, 2019, 22:27   #29
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Just because you have a plate which stops the round doesn't mean you will just jump up and be back in the fight. The truma to the body is great. Ask any combat medic who served in Iraq. They will tell you plenty of guys died were a plate carrier stopped a round. Its called a hemo thorax. Plates don't make you bullet proof. Better to train hard and use cover than be hit.
Well, there's certainly that...

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