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Old July 15, 2018, 12:13   #1
paco
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Question FAL PARA "ANC", Argentin. Weird story?

Hi folks,
I seems to be a magnet for rare or weird (FN) FAL items.
So, this selective FAL walks in my room and asked nicely if it could stay.
Since i'm a nice guy i gave it a place between some FAL friends.

Europe is invaded by refugees, seems to be the same with FAL's.
Any clue on this one? Looks Argy to mee, has the x-mas tree in the corner.
Matching serials, no serial on the barrel but the same stamp as on the receiver.
All info is good for me.

Thanks Paco

















He feels comfy with the friends around

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Old July 15, 2018, 12:16   #2
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Very Nice and thank you for posting the pictures
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Old July 15, 2018, 12:33   #3
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Damn, Paco. You made me get my church cloths dirty. Very nice.

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Old July 15, 2018, 12:55   #4
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No problem making your pants dirty.
I got my doubts on 2 things.

Why an extra "FN serial" since it is not made by FN Herstal.
Belgian Congo had FN made FAL's so, is this ANC some Argentin unit?
Argentin National Cadets or something?

Many questions...
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Old July 15, 2018, 16:26   #5
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http://www.fnfal.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321816

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Old July 15, 2018, 17:04   #6
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I'm aware on those ANC and Crested FP, seen'm before in Belgium.

But, never seen one like this...
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Old July 15, 2018, 17:11   #7
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You're asking US? We are mere peons who bow to your knowledge, and collection.

Great pictures, waiting to hear the story as to what it is.
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Old July 15, 2018, 17:47   #8
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Looks like maybe they bought cheaper prices from the Argentine factory late in the ANC acquisitions, or as replacements. Not unheard of, Imbel did the same thing and nabbed a contract where they could from Herstal. Late production and definitely Argentine, it even smells Argentine right through the dots on my screen...






Pretty much same Rosario underneath the add-ons here, but it walked into the U.S. as a semi.


Last edited by D. Lehrman; July 15, 2018 at 21:21.
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Old July 18, 2018, 08:45   #9
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Could it be one of the rifles purchased when Yugoslavia was tearing itself to bits? I remember seeing photos of people with what appeared to be brand new FAL rifles in that configuration.
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Old July 18, 2018, 08:47   #10
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Paco, was the ANC added after the black paint?
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Old July 18, 2018, 09:21   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in MN View Post
Paco, was the ANC added after the black paint?
It looks to me that the markings were applied later. The FN serial too

All strange to me, but hey, still a working full auto
I hoped to see a second piece...
Paco
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Old July 18, 2018, 15:00   #12
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Quote:
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Could it be one of the rifles purchased when Yugoslavia was tearing itself to bits? I remember seeing photos of people with what appeared to be brand new FAL rifles in that configuration.
.....yes some locals here I know who participated had Argentine made Paras for the festivities.
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Old July 18, 2018, 20:51   #13
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Why? Would FN not sell to them? There is a story here.
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Old July 18, 2018, 23:53   #14
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Well, there was a very nasty civil war on. Getting arms was difficult for some and no problem for others. Those for whom it was difficult had to rely on arms dealers who could produce. Sometimes that results in, "hey, I know somebody who knows somebody who can supply some Argentine rifles", you want some?
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Old July 19, 2018, 00:00   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy the Aussie View Post
.....yes some locals here I know who participated had Argentine made Paras for the festivities.

Soooo, ANC......Andy's Nocturnal Cravings....? Come on, fess up. It had to be Andy's something or other.
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Old July 19, 2018, 00:51   #16
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I would like to think so...ABS would have been me... "Andy's Boom Stick"...

I actually have associates who served on both sides of the events and had some "professional dealings" with another identified and returned for trial in relation to his involvement in some baddness. Several of the Aussies involved sought out the Argie FALs as they were available in their AO and because most were ex-ADF (it was the 90s remember) and familiar with the manual of arms. They also noted that most recognised when they were in a contact than to the boom boom vs bang bang.
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Old July 19, 2018, 07:49   #17
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Paco that is an excellent model you have there. One comment if I may, is that the FAL is designated as a folding stock with a 2 position rear sight and not a "para".
I know of no airborne unit which employed that model and it was mainly sold to and employed by foriegn police and army leg units.
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Old July 19, 2018, 09:34   #18
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Thx so far for the input.
Still no clue that is had something to do with Congo or not.

I can imagine that it is not suitable for jumping. Still a long rifle with the stock down.

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Old July 19, 2018, 18:31   #19
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Quote:
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Thx so far for the input.
Still no clue that is had something to do with Congo or not.

I can imagine that it is not suitable for jumping. Still a long rifle with the stock down.

Paco
The Belgian Paratroopers employed the 50.63 M3 during their occupation of the Stanleyville area. Mercenaries employing the 50.00 M1 & M2 FAL in other parts of the country to eliminate the "Simbas". (rebels)
Most references point to the FN M1 & M2 as original Congo FAL's, but I think all three would qualify.

I think your folding FAL may be a later model with the wide foot mag release and later locking lever. Anyway it is certainly a beautiful specimen.
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Old July 19, 2018, 20:40   #20
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Quote:
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The Belgian Paratroopers employed the 50.63 M3 during their occupation of the Stanleyville area. Mercenaries employing the 50.00 M1 & M2 FAL in other parts of the country to eliminate the "Simbas". (rebels)
Most references point to the FN M1 & M2 as original Congo FAL's, but I think all three would qualify.

I think your folding FAL may be a later model with the wide foot mag release and later locking lever. Anyway it is certainly a beautiful specimen.
You do realize that you are talking to a Belgian Para. Not me, paco. ParaCommando.

You are carrying coals to Newcastle.
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Old July 20, 2018, 03:49   #21
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Hi Paco, the rifle is 100 % argentine made by the FMAP DM, this particular model seems to be one we provide to the croatian forces in 1991, the markings FN1163 and A.N.C. were put by somebody else, not by the FMAP DM, and are not related to anything here in Argentina. In fact the argentine govt. when they delivered those weapons to Croatia tried to keep them as sterile as possible. Most of those rifles surface in Italy when the war ended and the croatian armed forces were issued with more regular weapons.
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Old July 20, 2018, 04:42   #22
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You do realize that you are talking to a Belgian Para. Not me, paco. ParaCommando.

You are carrying coals to Newcastle.
Good to hear from you once again. Brian.
The 173rd Airborne paratrooper "Herd" carry no water nor coal for anyone.
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Old July 20, 2018, 15:00   #23
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Hi,

Ok, 100% Argentin, somehow ended up in the Croatian-Yougo conflicts in the Balkan regio.

Yep, i'm paracommando. Paco is not my name

I used M1M2 and grey M3's in the army+ all the rest. FNC, F2000, P90, Scars...
Been in Africa (what a shithole)
Small world.

Paco out
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Old July 20, 2018, 22:05   #24
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https://imgur.com/a/Suy7fAD
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Old July 21, 2018, 04:31   #25
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thx
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Old May 14, 2019, 21:56   #26
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What is the significance of the "7." that precedes the Argentine serial number on the left side of the receiver?

If someone were trying to replicate an Argentine 50.61 would it be appropriate to also add that "7." in front of the serial number on the receiver?
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Old May 14, 2019, 22:11   #27
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Never seen another metric rifle with almost all the markings engraved like that. I thought by the time the type 3 came out in 72-73 the ANC was defunct and was called the FAZ? Or did they revert back to ANC in 1998?
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Old May 15, 2019, 01:13   #28
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Those are not African "ANC" markings, these will have been applied in Europe at some point. May even be as simple as a unit designation and someone had an engraver. There was some "kerfuffle" over the Argy sale of arms at the time as I recall.
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Old May 15, 2019, 07:59   #29
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What is the significance of the "7." that precedes the Argentine serial number on the left side of the receiver?

If someone were trying to replicate an Argentine 50.61 would it be appropriate to also add that "7." in front of the serial number on the receiver?
Perhaps member FSL may be able to explain; that prefix is a different number depending if the FAL was issued to the Army, Navy, Police, Air Force, etc. I don't have my reference literature handy right now (still in boxes).
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Old May 15, 2019, 08:12   #30
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Those are not African "ANC" markings, these will have been applied in Europe at some point. May even be as simple as a unit designation and someone had an engraver. There was some "kerfuffle" over the Argy sale of arms at the time as I recall.
Even the FN license markings look engraved. The bolt a force matched number? And thats not an Argentine carry handle, though obviously the previous owner could have swapped them. And no where does it say FMAP or have the Rosario address. What "plausible deniability" were they shooting for?
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Old May 15, 2019, 11:06   #31
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I was informed by a Balkan collector that at least one more "ANC" FAL like this one is around in Belgium.
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Old May 15, 2019, 18:17   #32
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Even the FN license markings look engraved. The bolt a force matched number? And thats not an Argentine carry handle, though obviously the previous owner could have swapped them. And no where does it say FMAP or have the Rosario address. What "plausible deniability" were they shooting for?
Examples in the Argentine Arms Museum show the FN license mark, so unlikely that was added later. The bolt and carrier SN's look similar to other Argentine para parts.
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Old May 15, 2019, 20:56   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy the Aussie View Post
Those are not African "ANC" markings, these will have been applied in Europe at some point. May even be as simple as a unit designation and someone had an engraver. There was some "kerfuffle" over the Argy sale of arms at the time as I recall.
Donít know about the sale of Argie FALs but there was kerfuffle with the FN sale. The Croat commander sold most of them to the enemy, bought AKs, and pocketed the difference.
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Old May 15, 2019, 21:11   #34
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Examples in the Argentine Arms Museum show the FN license mark, so unlikely that was added later. The bolt and carrier SN's look similar to other Argentine para parts.
Thanks. I didnt realize late model FMAPs had simplified engraved markings like that.
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Old May 16, 2019, 12:05   #35
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Perhaps member FSL may be able to explain; that prefix is a different number depending if the FAL was issued to the Army, Navy, Police, Air Force, etc. I don't have my reference literature handy right now (still in boxes).
IIRC, in the past DGFM applied different prefixes to weapons:
01-xxx was Army
07-xx was for export
Can't remember who had 02,03,etc. Surely Armada, Aeronautica,Prefectura,etc.
The lower does have the Argie proofmark, allegedly signifying La Fuente de Rosario (Rosario Fountain, Rosario being the industrial city where DGFM had their small arms plant and mini-museum.
The markings Licencia Fn appear to be factory applied in the correct font; I am not aware of any other country using Romance languages, other than Brazil and Argentina, so my money goes to being a DGFM weapon that has been "embellished"...

Incidentally, the participants in the subrosa sale of Argie weapons to Croatia, from 9mm HP to 155mm CITEFA guns, have now been declared free of any charges since the jusicial process has been going on for,,,get this,,23 years!!
Some friends can now rest easy in their old age.

I have been told in the Balkans that the Croats bought ammo from PPU during the ward, while the JNA bought oil from Croatia. Had never heard of the FALs being sold to the Serbs, though. Tha being said, have never seen a FAL in HR.
HTH
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Old May 19, 2019, 03:38   #36
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Paco I use to think that when I die that I want to go to heaven. Now I just want to live in your attic for eternity. I am not sure what you did in a past life but it must have been amazing.
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Old May 19, 2019, 05:48   #37
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I think i was Dieudonne Saive in my previous life...
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