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Old March 03, 2020, 17:41   #1
yovinny
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US&S

Ive got a rearsenaled slide...Who's got a frame ??

We could make something together.....
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Old March 03, 2020, 17:55   #2
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A friend of mine has one. But it has the original slide, wax paper and craft box...they bring crazy money now. Even a rearsenaled US&S slide is likely worth some coin.
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Old March 03, 2020, 19:31   #3
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I have the whole thing, but you can't have any!! The US&S guns were made about 3 miles from where I grew up in Swissvale, PA. I have heard stories of scrap slides littering the ground in the dump behind the plant. I wasn't even aware of what had taken place in that plant until I was swell into my collecting years. Kinda like Hays Arsenal, 2 miles in the other direction. Lots of WWII history took place in and around Pittsburgh.

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Old March 03, 2020, 20:25   #4
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This one I swapped off a parts gun years ago and is as close as Ive been to owning one. I've kept an eye out for years, but never really searched one out.
I'm sure there is a frame out there looking for one,,,I'm just dont get around enough examples anymore for it to make sense keeping it all to myself.
At this point,,I'd just like to see it reunited so somebody can at least enjoy it and I could use the $$ on other toys.....


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Old March 04, 2020, 08:39   #5
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I hates to be an ignorant, but could I inquire as to what "U.S. & S" is?

I know Singer Sewing made them, be that them?

Union Switch & Signal popped up in my mind also.

That would be a prized 1911 to be sure.
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Old March 04, 2020, 09:58   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAINER View Post
I hates to be an ignorant, but could I inquire as to what "U.S. & S" is?
Union Switch & Signal popped up in my mind also.
You’re not ignorant, you got it. There’s a lot who think next to a Singer, owning a US and S it’s just the kitties keister.

A skillful machinist and an 80% lower receiver could make a splendid display copy or, a cunning counterfeit. Of course not suggesting the later but, it could happen.

I hereby nominate Yovinny for the current “how cool am I” with a rare gun part cool, that I have. Awesome!

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Old March 04, 2020, 10:23   #7
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back in the 70s Numrich had the US&S slides in their catalog
The Numrich slides were in the white

by the 80s they were ending up in counterfeits
thieves would partially scrub frames and reapply the proper inspector marks, install a HS bbl.
repark and often stick in a craftboard box
Boom, a new US&S was born

We have a couple of the in the White Numrich slides packed away from family Estate
Today they seem to crop up every so often in the $700+ range
I'm a bit torn on what to do with them
I know those who want them usually are up to no good

Finding a real US&S frame is highly unlikely
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Old March 04, 2020, 11:12   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAINER View Post
I hates to be an ignorant, but could I inquire as to what "U.S. & S" is?

I know Singer Sewing made them, be that them?

Union Switch & Signal popped up in my mind also.

That would be a prized 1911 to be sure.
You ain't the only one,,forgot all about the Union Switch & Signal...
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Old March 04, 2020, 11:26   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAINER View Post
I hates to be an ignorant, but could I inquire as to what "U.S. & S" is?

I know Singer Sewing made them, be that them?

Union Switch & Signal popped up in my mind also.

That would be a prized 1911 to be sure.
Singer is the rarest 1911a1 out there with only 500 pieces and is a true holy grail.
Its interesting to note that Singer didnt actually produce any 1911a1's for WWII.

They did an 'educational' run of 500pcs. right before the war (1940 iirc) to see if they could fill govt contracts. The govt owned machinery they used was then transferred to Remington who went on to produce them for the war effort.

WWII production in round numbers;
Remington 900k
Colt 400k
Ithaca 400k
US&S 50k
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Old March 04, 2020, 11:30   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
back in the 70s Numrich had the US&S slides in their catalog
The Numrich slides were in the white

by the 80s they were ending up in counterfeits
thieves would partially scrub frames and reapply the proper inspector marks, install a HS bbl.
repark and often stick in a craftboard box
Boom, a new US&S was born

We have a couple of the in the White Numrich slides packed away from family Estate
Today they seem to crop up every so often in the $700+ range
I'm a bit torn on what to do with them
I know those who want them usually are up to no good

Finding a real US&S frame is highly unlikely
Very interesting,,I didnt know that.
How about a pic of these in the white slides ???
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Old March 04, 2020, 12:47   #11
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Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
Very interesting,,I didnt know that.
How about a pic of these in the white slides ???
I'll see if I can dig one out, pretty sure they are in the tub of 1911 bits

Numrich had great piles of crazy bits years ago as industry tended to sell obsolete parts inventory to George
Heck they once had factory threaded barrels for various Winchester for Maxim suppressors !

another sidebar
How all this started largely came out of the same crew of characters that used to forge up early Colt SAAs and rare Winchesters in the 70s
by the 80s it was getting too expensive to get into SAAs dirt cheap to rebuild and age so there was a massive shift to US military arms
It was still easy to run down 03s with butchered wood. NOS C stocks were available, mounts bases and original scopes were around so BOOM, new A4 Snipers were born all the time.

Same was going on with Garands, Carbines & 1911s
usually it was just a re phosphate and new grips/furniture

Another outfit that's been pretty much cleaned out is Dixie Gun Works
since the WWW blossomed clever folks bought out certain old surplus and remarketed it online. I'm guilty of a bit of that myself
for that matter, that's part of the APEX business model

anyways a fair share of the US&S 1911s are just slides on other contractors frames
There's a particular inspector stamp for the US&S guns
they also tended to have closer tolerances slide to frame
right barrel is a WWII High Standard contract

another point ignored is that there were a number of other corps tooling up to manufacture 1911s. DoD killed all those contracts in 45' and that "scrap" also largely ended up with Numrich as well as the tooling

I get some of the insanity over Singer pistols but even with those more slides were made than frames and were being sold cheap in the sixties
no one really saw those slides as any different than a Remington, most folks wanted a for reals Colt back then
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Old March 04, 2020, 12:49   #12
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It cant be a real singer unless it has a foot treadle.
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Old March 04, 2020, 15:14   #13
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This slide dosent show much besides the name and a firing proof...
It came off a walk in parts gun we bought probably late 80's.
If its been a baseless pipe dream for 30+ yrs,,,I deserve a swift kick in the ass.....
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Old March 04, 2020, 15:29   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
Singer is the rarest 1911a1 out there with only 500 pieces and is a true holy grail.
Its interesting to note that Singer didnt actually produce any 1911a1's for WWII.

They did an 'educational' run of 500pcs. right before the war (1940 iirc) to see if they could fill govt contracts. The govt owned machinery they used was then transferred to Remington who went on to produce them for the war effort.

WWII production in round numbers;
Remington 900k
Colt 400k
Ithaca 400k
US&S 50k

And one of THE MOST FAKED guns on the market. For every real Singer, there’s a dozen fake ones. Some are so good, it’s scary.
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Old March 04, 2020, 19:26   #15
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Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
This slide dosent show much besides the name and a firing proof...
It came off a walk in parts gun we bought probably late 80's.
If its been a baseless pipe dream for 30+ yrs,,,I deserve a swift kick in the ass.....
Yes, No, Maybe...

There are no "parts" guns unless they happened to be assembled on an Essex or other non GI frame
Reality always has been post war, guns were broken down, parts mixed during depot rebuild

Years ago the game was buying such guns to assemble so called "matching" examples"
Again, this was done with all 20th Century US military guns
I tend to regard it as a form of fakery

It's one thing to build something from multiple guns that's "correct" because you are doing it for yourself
totally another to indulge in this as a for profit business model
There are of course US&S frames out there on mixmasters, they are just few and far between

Guy passed through our last show couple weeks ago
He had a contract Colt slide on an Ithica frame
mirco rear sight. Vendor buddy bought it for $500 and in was like 98% Park
Pops snagged a nearly unfired series 70' .38 super Colt Combat Commander for just a hundred more. His 95% Series 70' Government model sold to another vendor for $500
Messed up part of it I told him exactly what retail was
Grandad's guns his sisters wanted gone
I was lucky to have snagged the guy after he was showing a vendor the contents of the pistol case
pulled up Gunbroker listing on everything however the wimmins wanted it all sold that weekend.

More messed up
dealers were offering way less, two to three hundred
anyways there is still tons of this crap out there in boondocks America

again, that's likely a $700+ slide to someone
30 years ago, maybe you might have pulled a couple hundred on it
you did good brother !
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Old March 05, 2020, 01:09   #16
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My father in law had a US&S. I told him they were rare and if he ever wanted to sell it let me know and I would research it on the net and get him the best price. Well being the hard headed old Kraut he was, he took it to a gun store and sold it. Never did find out what he got for it. This was 15 years ago.
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Old March 05, 2020, 09:36   #17
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Yes,,,mixmaster...all usgi, but put together with the first part grabbed out of the bin.
That covers about 95% of actual usgi stuff,,,except all those returned to original once they retired from service....lol

Speaking of supers,,,,Ive also a clean pre war super match complete top end,,,,looking for a frame...
Though I may just build that into a parts gun myself,,,I love supers and have a few others already...
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Old March 07, 2020, 11:07   #18
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US&S

I traded this .45 off years ago believing it was a US&S as it fell within this number group. Got it back like 20 years ago with the sad news that it had been sent away for a complete USMC build as a marsoc pistol complete with Dawson rail and high dollor one off Surefire light. Sad to say at the least but now my best shooter. I still question the numbers shown here or is it something else as Remington Rand would fall in line and make it less painful to look at.





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Old March 07, 2020, 11:20   #19
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Looks Remmy to me, but check the inspectors stamp..
FJA= Remmy
RCD= US&S
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Old March 07, 2020, 19:17   #20
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Looks Remmy to me, but check the inspectors stamp..
FJA= Remmy
RCD= US&S
Thats what i hope and this just shows not all "Experts" are so when it comes to numbers. This was from a publication like in 1972 that is "Know your .45's". Sad thing is the slide was raped also with dropped ejection port. FJA on inspector.
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Old March 08, 2020, 13:02   #21
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Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
Singer is the rarest 1911a1 out there with only 500 pieces and is a true holy grail.
Its interesting to note that Singer didnt actually produce any 1911a1's for WWII.

They did an 'educational' run of 500pcs. right before the war (1940 iirc) to see if they could fill govt contracts. The govt owned machinery they used was then transferred to Remington who went on to produce them for the war effort.

WWII production in round numbers;
Remington 900k
Colt 400k
Ithaca 400k
US&S 50k
But it was Remington Rand and Remngton Arms. Remington UMC made a limited number of 1911s during WWI but nothing in WWII. Remington Rand originally made office machines and such. I have an 8ft conference table with a Remington Rand plate on it that came out of Ft Ord
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:17   #22
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40 years ago I had a chance to trade my old Colt New Service .44 Special, and like $50 boot as I recall, for a very well worn Singer. Could have been a fake I suppose, it had a tremendous amount of wear and zero finish remaining. Anybody faking them that long ago?
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:40   #23
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40 years ago I had a chance to trade my old Colt New Service .44 Special, and like $50 boot as I recall, for a very well worn Singer. Could have been a fake I suppose, it had a tremendous amount of wear and zero finish remaining. Anybody faking them that long ago?
If you are talking maybe 80s...really no
90s it churned up some but they were all 70%+ looking guns
no faker made up beaters
no big cash in that
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Old March 16, 2020, 18:05   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
Singer is the rarest 1911a1 out there with only 500 pieces and is a true holy grail.
Its interesting to note that Singer didnt actually produce any 1911a1's for WWII.

They did an 'educational' run of 500pcs. right before the war (1940 iirc) to see if they could fill govt contracts. The govt owned machinery they used was then transferred to Remington who went on to produce them for the war effort.

WWII production in round numbers;
Remington 900k
Colt 400k
Ithaca 400k
US&S 50k
Once the "educational order" was completed, the government offered Singer a contract for 15,000 more pistols...Singer basically countered that making M1911A1s was beneath their abilities, and asked for something more complex...so the Singer tooling went to Remington-Rand, and Singer instead spent the war making fire-control equipment for artillery.
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Old March 19, 2020, 12:57   #25
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Years ago, like back in 1981, I was a Navy firearms instructor working with the Seabee unit at Point Hueneme, CA. One weekend I was drawing weapons to use for training a group of Medical people. One of the 1911A1's that we got out of the Armory was a Union Switch & Signal in nice condition. I told the guy that I'd give them a Colt for it, but they wouldn't go for that. Something about serial numbers not matching. I've always wondered what happened to that gun. Same with the Armalite AR-15's with green furiture that were in storage at Norton Air Force Base in 1990. Always wondered what happened to them, too. They were probably just as rare as the Union Switch & Signal 1911A1. The government did something with all of those, but I have no idea what.
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