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Old October 21, 2019, 12:47   #251
hueyville
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Well,,,
you did in fact purchase a full length FF forend from me sometime back. Whether that's the one I can't say. I'm happy it went to a good home.
This is the one, like fact it's stainless steel, lightweight, holes don't shread my hands if run the rifle offhand for extended periods of time and rock solid with ability to add pic rail sections. When purchased it didn't color match anything I had but when built the W.O.A. HBAR with O.D. Green accessories gave it a squirt the next time HVLP was loaded with proper color Cerakote. O.D. Green is color I spray more than any other as works great in southeast. Shame they discontinued this model in favor of Keylok and M Lok but I try to snap up everyone I find on discussion groups and fleabay. A full length rail across top and usually one or two mounting points for snapping on a bipod or light/I.R. illuminator is most I ever need. Anyone wants to part with any of the older Midwest forearms I am always in the market at a fair price.

Hueyville off topic drivel:
This rifle lives in the master bathroom of the Ponderosa along with a 10.5" piston drive 5.56 pistol. Pistol has a can and is for event backed all the way into the master bath which was the first ballistic panic room added to the house. Due to size of master bath it's big enough for two people to comfortably take shelter in during a sudden storm or home invasion but small enough was not a budget buster to harden. When purchased the house and had to replace most of the drywall used 5/8" ballistic fiberglass instead of fiberboard or green board sheetrock on inside walls and ceiling of master bath. The outside walls surrounding master bath used 1/2" ballistic fiberglass which was able to blend in with the drywall going down hallway and in 1/2 bath that is next to it and one wall of bedroom that's shared with it which as time and money allowed entire master bedroom now has 1/2" ballistic fiberglass instead of drywall and is its own safe room.

The master bath was also first room installed exterior firing ports as has best view of back yard all the way to lake two stories up and almost center of house and an invisible port till opened that covers main hallway to bedrooms and door from living room. Allows us to get in a secure room, armor up and shoot out if know how to find and open ports. With total of 1.125" of ballistic fiberglass protecting three interior walls, 5/8" inside and brick on exterior walm plus steel plate inside wall between studs it was toughest room in house for a few years. Used a NIJ Level 3 door plus has cast iron tub and shower enclosure made from 3/4" abrasion resistant polycarbonate which will stop up to 7.62x39 not counting the two layers of ballistic fiberglass. Keep my heaviest IOTV overt armor kit on back of master bath door which has Level 4 plates plus Level 3 side plates, shoulder & bicep DAPS, groin & sacrum protector and neck yoke plus helmet in closet. Also have a bomb blanket in closet and wife is supposed to crawl in tub and cover herself with the bomb blanket in case of tornado sneaking up on her.

Thus the 4x401 surplus handguard is living in my version of the Mel Gibson movie Conspiracy Theory bathroom as the go to rifle for burning down back yard zombies or the 10.5" suppressed piston drive to keep the interior of house sprayed for zombies. If wife and I both retreat to bathroom then we can cover both ports. We now have two upstairs panic rooms, primary panic room in basement and all exterior doors NIJ 3+ or NIJ 4 force entry rated over 27 years of upgrades. With a couple of home invasions in north Metro ATL per week and a yet uncaught group of five men who have successfully invaded multiple homes posing as cops and wife in wheelchair on bad days feel keeping the bogeyman out is much better solution than having to beat him down after already gaining entry but if bogeyman/zombies do get in its going to be worse than a carnival funhouse run by Freddie Kruger for them as have all sorts of surprises. Odds are I will eventually get whacked by one of my home built toys meant to discourage neer-do-wells like an old console tube television capacitor with the bleed off resistor removed, fully charged and in bottom of sock drawer.... Yikes!
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Old October 21, 2019, 13:23   #252
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...

Odds are I will eventually get whacked by one of my home built toys meant to discourage neer-do-wells like an old console tube television capacitor with the bleed off resistor removed, fully charged and in bottom of sock drawer.... Yikes!
Note to huey: Try to stay clear of Alzheimer's...

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Old October 24, 2019, 07:04   #253
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6 page's of WTF is going on in this thread ?
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Old October 24, 2019, 07:13   #254
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6 page's of WTF is going on in this thread ?
Multi-track drifting
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Old October 24, 2019, 10:06   #255
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Hey, you guys say things I don't like about my thread, I'll be 'forced' to delete it (like the namesake thread)...

Oh, wait, maybe not...

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Old October 24, 2019, 10:47   #256
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Hey, you guys say things I don't like about my thread, I'll be 'forced' to delete it (like the namesake thread)...

Oh, wait, maybe not...

Forrest
Go ahead!
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Old October 24, 2019, 11:07   #257
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Go ahead!


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Old October 24, 2019, 13:45   #258
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Originally Posted by ftierson View Post
Hey, you guys say things I don't like about my thread, I'll be 'forced' to delete it (like the namesake thread)...

Oh, wait, maybe not...

Forrest
Can you imagine the hate that would flow your way from proven flame-war experts hardened like iron in the fire from this barely-survivable flame-war training ground you've started up?

You'd be like Soviet army invading Afghanistan. Looks easy at first, and then years of misery to follow...
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 24, 2019, 13:47   #259
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6 page's of WTF is going on in this thread ?
This is like any thread full of The (ahem!) Committee Members and Honorary Committee Members (Forrest). We're going places we don't know, and doing things that other people quake to consider...
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 24, 2019, 13:57   #260
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Hueyville off topic drivel:
Holy smokes, Huey!!

1. Paragraphs

2. Warning

I read the entire thing! It's not the first time I've read your entire posts - as I've read a bunch of the mountaineering posts and other stuff. Also, I'm a moderately fast reader, so I can invest a small amount of time to stay in the flow. That being said, sometimes I can't make it. This ^ organization makes it a lot easier to consume, so I (for one unimportant vote) vote you keep it up.

Also: I have questions:

1. is 1/2" fiberglass 9mm and .45ACP proof, or is it also rifle-rated? Related to this question is the fact that last month at Kotengu's 5th Group/Legion 9/11 Memorial match, we strapped a fiberglass/kevlar hard panel on top of a truck cab because we had a bunch of rifle shooters sending rounds out of the bed (over the cab) on a target 75 yards away while the truck was moving. You may not think this is a big deal, but if you saw some of the shooters, you'd know why I had night sweats...

Anyhoo... this panel was 3'x4', and I could lift it myself. Probably could NOT lift 3' x 4' of 1/2" AR500...

Kevlar / fiberglass panel was rifle rated. I'm guessing you didn't spend the coin to put kevlar panel in the bathroom, hallways, etc. - but maybe you did.

2. What did those panels cost?

3. Did you put greenboard over the top of the fiberglass, or did it stand alone and then take a plaster finish?


Thanks for taking the time above and in answering my questions.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 24, 2019, 17:45   #261
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At my wholesale price 1/2"x48"x96" ballistic fiberglass panels is about $500 per sheet when buy minimum of six panels. Considering it lasts forever and once have ripped out drywall and remodeling a small to medium size room the extra cost is not a deal breaker. I get my ballistic rated doors from a government supplier who sells me their blems that just don't pass some criteria for a contract or had an extra at end of project. Having safe master bath and now safe master bedroom to gunfire when wife is disabled and can't escape a home invasion easily is a lot of peace of mind.

Using 1/2" on inside of wall and outside of wall gives a total of one inch of ballistic fiberglass which will stop 7.62x39 and M193 in mosf cases but it's the limit and why bury scrap abrasion resistant steel in high threat areas based on what find in my steel suppliers rack of drops. Remember I install ballistic polycarbonate in logging equipment along with both polycarbonate and ballistic fiberglass in cash teller windows, churches and executive offices, especially human resource offices for big local companies can always buy an extra sheet on each job and collect all the drop pieces. It has become a good side business with lots of disgruntled employees shooting up the offices of people who terminated their job, churches with good budgets and gone through a threat along with local check cashing/title pawn/etc type businesses. Has taken me 27 years to armor three rooms so amortize that out over time it's not huge cost per year to add hardened locations and doors to your home.
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Old October 24, 2019, 17:49   #262
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Hey, you guys say things I don't like about my thread, I'll be 'forced' to delete it (like the namesake thread)...

Oh, wait, maybe not...

Forrest
Delete your silly thread, am going to save it all out and will repost it all just to exasperate the flame war and multi track thread drift. Just to steer drift down a spur track have all parts ready for my next AR 10 build except for barrel. Have found a 6.5 Creedmoor carbon wrap barrel from reputable company at a deal for $535 but lightweight for this build is not of primary concern would like to see how this barrel shoots though would be a tad miffed if didn't shoot to expectations for the rifle.

Throwing everything at it did with the 6XC builds so that there is nothing left to chance. SIG carbon fiber "A2" rifle stock, DPMS Lo Pro receiver set, two pound trigger and all the tricks I know along with a Vortex Viper PST 5-25x scope. Waffling between the carbon wrap barrel and a Bartlein/Krieger/etc single point cut rifling in 22" length. The BSF 22" carbon wrap barrel have found is six groove button rifled and can buy it for just under $500 from a vendor have wholesale account with. Have read a lot of positive reviews and could jump to the 24.5" version without any weight issues if wanted. After having to send a Proof Research barrel back for refund due to crooked chamber would rather risk the deal can currently get on the BSF if go carbon wrap.

That said have never had a complaint from any single point cut rifling match barrel from reputable manufacturer. Have used more Krieger than any other single point cut rifled barrels just because had a source for them at wholesale for some time. Relatively new to having more than a couple of Bartlein and all are impressing me. Am considering a Proof Research stainless barrel without the carbon wrap in single point cut rifling as found a vendor with a 24" at darn good price and is last they have before drop them from their offerings.

Have two very nice shooting 6.5 Creedmoor AR 10s with 20" tubes but want to up the ante a bit. With 22" or 24" lengths it's easier to get rifle plus two inch gas lengths and we all know I like the longest gas system I can get when building repeaters for accuracy. My 26" 6XC have plus three inch gas systems and shoot nearly as well as my custom bolt rifle in same cartridge. My M1a/M14s in 6.5 Creedmoor have me wanting to sell some 7.62s and buy more in 6.5 or rebarrel some 7.62s in 6.5 Creedmoor. While can't beat the 6XC in accuracy it has no energy left past 600 yards but for punching paper at 600 to 1,200 yards it is my go to in repeaters and turn bolt.

If anyone trips across a super deal in name brand single point cut rifled name brand 6.5 Creedmoor rifle barrel in 22" to 24" with rifle plus two inch gas system post up a link. Have all the parts gathered but also have enough projects to keep me busy and plan is to wait and see what may pop up on Black Friday and After Christmas sales before drop the cash on my next 6.5 AR 10 tube.

When I have my first issue using rifle plus one, two or three inch gas systems will be sure to cry about it and bet for help in solving the issue. Also if use a carbon wrap barrel of which many have no shoulder to index gas block off of will pitch a little fit demanding barrel makers to add shoulders to such barrels and for the collective to solve my issue asap.
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Old October 25, 2019, 00:06   #263
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I'm going down the "spur" myself.

To all the Oregon & Washington people who've given me crap because I can't get my 6.5C AR-10 to run? All you people killing me at every opportunity?

It ain't my fault.


Proof just sent me an RA and shipping label. Turns out that they ran some barrels with short headspace. I happened to get one.

Yay.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 25, 2019, 00:26   #264
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It ain't my fault.
Proof just sent me an RA and shipping label. Turns out that they ran some barrels with short headspace. I happened to get one.

Yay.
Yes Virgina, there Is a Santa Claus...
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Old October 25, 2019, 02:43   #265
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I'm going down the "spur" myself.

To all the Oregon & Washington people who've given me crap because I can't get my 6.5C AR-10 to run? All you people killing me at every opportunity?

It ain't my fault.


Proof just sent me an RA and shipping label. Turns out that they ran some barrels with short headspace. I happened to get one.

Yay.
Oh, sure...

Likely story...

Everyone has an excuse...



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Old October 25, 2019, 07:43   #266
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Holy smokes, Huey!!

1. Paragraphs

2. Warning

I read the entire thing! It's not the first time I've read your entire posts - as I've read a bunch of the mountaineering posts and other stuff. Also, I'm a moderately fast reader, so I can invest a small amount of time to stay in the flow. That being said, sometimes I can't make it. This ^ organization makes it a lot easier to consume, so I (for one unimportant vote) vote you keep it up.
The Tao of Huey is the Files' manifesto for 21st century 'merica, gems like single Lego blocks waiting on the carpet in the darkness for deciphering by bare feet.
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Old October 25, 2019, 14:45   #267
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I'm going down the "spur" myself.

To all the Oregon & Washington people who've given me crap because I can't get my 6.5C AR-10 to run? All you people killing me at every opportunity?

It ain't my fault.

Proof just sent me an RA and shipping label. Turns out that they ran some barrels with short headspace. I happened to get one.

Yay.
Oddly I had to send a 7mm-08 carbon wrap Proof Research barrel back and am considering their stainless 6.5C as a replacement. Have read of many people not being satisfied till installed second Proof barrel and know two people have come into LGS that had to return Proof Research barrels. Do they just send them out when come off the line without running any Q.C.? That said everyone that gets a good one absolutely loves it. I want one but after sending the 7mm back as could tell it was off with naked eye am a bit leery how they will act if have one that just doesn't shoot to my satisfaction and try to say they can't stand behind a barrel put on a "home built" rifle.

That said while like to find bargains and plan to look through Black Friday till After Christmas for a Proof, Kreiger, Bartlein or other single point cut rifled barrel at a deal if have to pay full price I will on this next build. My plan is to build the best 6.5C I possibly can for 1,000 yard shots if necessary. Because have always been a big 7mm fan had started down the 7mm-08 road before 6.5C became the hot new kid on the block. Doubt will find any cartridge that does want 7mm Practical does but can't pack that big cartridge in an AR 10 chassis. Now have pair of 6.5C in AR 10, M1a/M14 and turn bolt. Am finding if do it right unless spend big to have a custom turn bolt built by top name smith can build AR 10's that shoot with many off the rack precision turn bolts. Of course a properly built and blueprinted light benchrest/F Class build is in its own realm.

Keep us apprised of how the Proof 6.5C project turns out as will drop $900 to get a lighter barrel that holds a descent group to 1,000 yards. Most likely the rifle will be used to cull deer over south Georgia crop fields where range of rifle is only limiting factor in distance you can engage deer and farmers don't care if you drop twenty in five minutes then wait and repeat soon as the smoke clears. Missing opportunities for shots on the third or fourth deer due to time takes to cycle the bolt and get back on target with the big 7mm. Hoping a top notch 6.5C repeater will allow me to transition from deer to deer until all are moving too fast or laying dead.
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Old October 25, 2019, 19:08   #268
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This is like any thread full of The (ahem!) Committee Members and Honorary Committee Members (Forrest). We're going places we don't know, and doing things that other people quake to consider...
My thoughts exactly .
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Old October 25, 2019, 19:31   #269
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If I was going to spend $3,000 on a factory AR 15 would buy the MGI Hydra that comes in a nice case and can swap it to four different calibers with barrel lengths of choice basically without any tools.

https://www.mgi-military.com/store/i...e=&category=21

If going that far in would buy the five caliber kit that can choose from many choices but their most popular kit comes with any five of the below listed calibers that all snap together on a single registered receiver. Actually can buy all listed and use on same receiver and technically only own a single rifle.

22 Long Rile
5.56 x 45
.300 Blackout
5.45 x 39 (AK-74)
7.62 x 39 (AK-47)
6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC
9mm SMG-9C (Colt-Style Mags)
.50 Beowulf

https://www.mgi-military.com/store/i...e=&category=21
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Old October 27, 2019, 19:43   #270
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Oddly I had to send a 7mm-08 carbon wrap Proof Research barrel back and am considering their stainless 6.5C as a replacement. Have read of many people not being satisfied till installed second Proof barrel and know two people have come into LGS that had to return Proof Research barrels. Do they just send them out when come off the line without running any Q.C.? .
The guy said that when Proof got into the AR-10 game, they were trying to deliver "match" accuracy and dimensions for gas guns without there actually being a standard for .308 bolt dimensions (or other .308 standard 'specs'), so they were cutting the chambers to .001 over SAAMI minimums.

They got a bunch of returns. I just happened to buy an older barrel - which means that the retailer (Rainier Arms) probably knew it and let it go out with the Customer Service issue falling on Proof.


They don't cut 'em like that no more.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old October 28, 2019, 18:35   #271
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Good to hear about the chambers. Also about not trying to attain match quality with carbon wrap barrels as my next build accuracy is much more important than weight. Will be very interested to see what kind of accuracy you get out of yours. What length will it be? I would be upset to spend upwards of a grand on a barrel not knowing was paying for a good shooting lightweight barrel and not a great shooting barrel period.

Am now waffling between 24.5" and 26" for my next 6.5 build and will now defiantly be a single point cut rifled stainless tube and sent off to be cryotreated before installed. My turn bolt smith swears by it for stabilizing a barrel and adding some durability allowing throat to last longer before has to be lapped then eventually recut. Wonder if you can remove the gas block from an AR barrel, shave 1/4" off the back, recharger and reinstall the barrel extension with a little addition to threads? Have done this with several of my highly over bore turn bolts and gotten twice the life out of a barrel before the rifling starts to erode past usable for precision?

In fact the first 22 Nosler barrel I smoke the throat on an AR 15 may send to White Oak Armament and ask them to give it a try if they will. Have seldom had a barrel that rifling was not still sharp when throat went past point of no return. Would likely be a big money saver and encourage more 22 Nosler builds. Read an article over the weekend where a well known gun writer was doing very well using his 22 Nosler AR 15 builds at 1,000 yards as the bullets stay supersonic out to 1,200ish yards based on weight. 77 grain bullets shoot great in the typical 1:8 tube but article I read author was chambering Bartlein and Kreiger 1:7 tubes in 22 Nosler and with handle ads shooting sub 1/2 MOA five shot groups at 100 yards using 90 grain Bergers and still holding 1 MOA at 100 yards in no wind when all came together.

Like the 6XC AR 10s my top notch 22 Noslers just have no gas left past 800 yards to really kill anything big enough you could hit cleanly. Why I want to build a precision 6.5C AR 10 and see if I can find 1 MOA from a gas gun and have enough energy to kill stuff at a 1,000 yards as the military claims.
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Old October 30, 2019, 16:57   #272
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The Project has begun: I just bought a Deal of the Day rifle (kit) from PSA for $299. The only thing I have to supply is a lower, which I think I can do for $51.00. I'm going to keep the price of the optic out of the rifle cost calculations, but i'm going to put some cheapo on there to see what happens.

Next up... convert expensive parts into expensive rifle. I've got a Noveske Stainless 'match'/SPR barrel with gas block waiting to become something special.

More later as the parts start to come in. Let the hate begin to flow...

Am looking at scopes for my cheap versus premium builds. Midway has this "Athlon Optics Ares BTR Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 2.5-15x 50mm Side Focus First Focal Illuminated APLR3 MOA Reticle Matte" retail $799 on sale for $399. Is this a good enough scope for the premium build? Only have one Athlon scope which came on a bolt rifle which was used as a donor chasis for my rifle smith to build into a semi custom general purpose rifle in 25-06. The Athlon scope from that donor rifle is so crappy it sits in a box with at least a dozen other such scopes that would not put on a $79 rimfire.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018816211?pid=812085

If anyone has experience with this at $800 retail on sale for $399 and it's a good scope only putting $400 into a project scope could pair it against a $199 Vortex Diamondback 4-12x found on clearance. WhIle want to do this project a worthy attempt would rather not drop a thousand dollars or more on a single piece of glass. But just because the Athalon is half price don't want to use it if their scopes are crappy.
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Old November 02, 2019, 22:58   #273
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I don't know the Athlon scope brand. Got nothing to say about 'em either way.

I just bought a used Primary Arms 1-6 in the Marketplace here for under $200. That's the one going on the El Cheapo for the ongoing competition - which has been going slowly lately.

Need to get the match ammo set up for these things, because it's in short supply here in my neck of the woods. That and I'm not spending $1/round for this stupid test.

Hey, Forrest, can you just delete this thread or what?
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Old November 02, 2019, 23:15   #274
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Run 'n' Gun Lightweight....

My Run 'n' Gun rifle - almost there...

It's stupid money, but I just sold the Unfired/NOS 50.42 a few weeks ago, so I'm (mostly) keeping with my 'horse-trading' commitment on guns instead of new money.

I've also lost 8 pounds in the past six weeks from running and eating better. 10 to go (207 target). So since I'm actually saving weight on the frame (mine), I feel like I can justify also trying to save some weight on the equipment. I think it's going to be 5 pounds before sights - and that's WITH

16" chrome-lined barrel (DD)
Full Mass bolt and carrier (JP)
Ambi-safety (Radian)
13" handguard (V Seven)

This rifle (parts) currently weighs 4.75 pounds. I have to add:

1. titanium port door = negligible weight
2. Geissele trigger = 2.2 oz
3. Radian safety = < 1.0 oz
4. titanium compensator = 1.0 oz.


I *could* get it to 4 pounds total IF I were willing to use an aluminum bolt carrier, carbon fiber receiver extension, and a 'minimalist' butt plate screwed to the extension tube. Not willing to do the aluminum carrier and/or risk reliability issues in these matches. I hate running so much I can't imagine inducing failures because I can't carry 7 ounces of bolt carrier.


My goal is / was to shed 18 pounds on myself, 2 pounds on rifle, and 3 pounds on extra ammo carried for a total of 23 - which is HALF of the 45 pound pack I've got to carry to run in the 'Tier 1' class in user kotengu's Legion 9/11 Memorial Run 'n' Gun that happens every year in (wait for it...) September at Rockcastle.


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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

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Old November 04, 2019, 11:17   #275
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I thought this was going to be deleted, what happened???
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Old November 04, 2019, 12:14   #276
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I thought this was going to be deleted, what happened???


I don't do deletions.

Guess some are stuck with doing what they said they were going to do...

Or not, as the case may be...

Although it's always unclear what's really being tested in such cheap vs expensive comparisons, it's still interesting to see the results of the 'test.'

Forrest
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Old November 04, 2019, 13:24   #277
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I don't do deletions.
Guess some are stuck with doing what they said they were going to do...
Or not, as the case may be...
Although it's always unclear what's really being tested in such cheap vs expensive comparisons, it's still interesting to see the results of the 'test.'
Forrest
Going to hack your account just so I can delete it and repost under my name. I want the credit. Oh, and a badge with one bullet for shirt pocket.
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Old November 04, 2019, 17:13   #278
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I don't do deletions.

Guess some are stuck with doing what they said they were going to do...

Or not, as the case may be...

Although it's always unclear what's really being tested in such cheap vs expensive comparisons, it's still interesting to see the results of the 'test.'

Forrest
I'm doing it.

Damn it.

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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old November 04, 2019, 17:25   #279
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stupid money
If it's worth doing...
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Old November 04, 2019, 17:29   #280
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Sorta.

I'm using it as motivation to keep losing weight. Kind of a "Potential Public Humiliation" type of external motivation.

But they're nice parts, and the rifle is super light.


If I'm anywhere in the 210 range, and I save another 5 lbs. between rifle and unneeded ammo, I'm gonna handle that pack like a boss.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old November 05, 2019, 18:08   #281
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Did a Google search on lightweight AR 15 builds and this was in the description of the top post on the first search page.

Quote:
The general (unofficial) consensus is that ultralight begins under 4 lbs, while lightweight runs between 4 and 6 lbs.
My first build under five pounds without optic or mount just a set of BUIS sights was a total accident. Used a complete MAG Tactical billet magnesium upper and lower receiver set on a 13.7" barrel pinned to 16.015" with an AAC 51T suppressor adapter. Had a milspec buffer tube with Magpul stock and somebodies aluminum M Lok free float forearm.

I mounted a Vortex 1-6x Strike Eagle at 17.6 ounces using an Aero Ultralight cantilever scope mount at 6.9 ounces bringing optic weight mounted to 24.5 ounces and taking me over six pounds. Since all this happened accidentally initially when realized I was on the way to a lightweight build found a carbon fiber forearm, swapped to milspec stock (saved 2.2 ounces over the Magpul), Magpul pistol grip (saved a whopping 0.28 ounces), then ordered some titanium parts from our "favorite" FAL accessories vendor DS Arms. Purchased their dust cover door with titanium hinge pin, titanium takedown pins, forward assist, titanium buffer tube castle nut, buffer retaining plunger, titanium buffer castle nut, titanium pistol grip screw and a JP titanium firing pin.

Also dug through all my backup sights and found the lightest set in the locker. The titanium parts were all relatively cheap and added less than $200 total cost to build, the difference in price from the other parts swapped was less than $100 difference and even though had to unpin suppressor adapter left my "heavy" adjustable gas block instead of using a DSA titanium gas block. Even added a Burris Fastfire II so had my red dot that love for close in moving targets plus with an unloaded USGI new generation M4 thirty round mag designed for M855A1 the rifle topped the scales at 5.9 pounds with a decent scope and good red dot while leaving my heavy milspec M16 full auto bolt carrier and a few other parts that could have easily dropped it down to 5.5 pounds with optics and sights but that half pound was going to.cost price of.a decent barrel for the next build.

Funny thing is when I put on a full kit with rifle armor fully kitted out with spare loaded magazines, rifle loadex, helmet, water bladder and basics for a walk around just the perimeter of the Ponderosa can't tell any difference between my 5.9 pound build with optics and my Mk 12 Mod H builds with 18" barrels and very few ultralight or even lightweight parts. Especially the 2.5-10x to 4-16x fat scopes and mounts plus full length rail on top adding weight. Now my 20" HBARs and 24" varmint tube builds will begin talking to me any 7.5 pound rifle before optics just does not give me.any real feeling of wishing I had picked up a light rifle.

Want to lament a heavy rifle I just have to pick up an L2a1 with thirty round magazine and twenty pounds of loaded rifle will start talking to me. If world is that loopy would pick up one of my DPMS Oracle AR 10s with 16" barrel, fifty round beta mag, day scope and I.R. laser to use with my PVS 14.
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Old November 05, 2019, 18:38   #282
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can't tell any difference between
Me too. My personal experiences are more about shaving 10 or 15 pounds off a 200 pound off-road race bike, but similar to shaving one pound off a rifle.

A pocket 9mm weighs less than a 1911, which is less than an AR, which is less than a scoped model 70, which is less than a fully loaded FAL, which is less than a BAR, which is less than a 1919, ad nauseum.

You can throw a shit-ton of money at trying to save a small percentage of weight. A large, significant percentage will change the usefulness for the intended purpose. A very small percentage of weight savings may be very notable to "the pros" in that particular genre of sport (and I mean Olympic level pros), but is truly negligible to most folks versus the cost to do so.

YMMV
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Old November 05, 2019, 22:20   #283
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After having spent a few hours running with rifles and packs and trying to be ready to shoot well - either fast 'n' close or out to 500 or 600, I've come to the conclusion that I want as much of an advantage as I can get while I run against the 20-somethings. I'm not trying to beat them for running: I'm trying to shoot smoothly enough to stay in the game while I'm running like the Delta Diamond/Desk Jockey that I am.

If it's built well, a 5 lb. rifle is superior to a 7 lb. rifle in almost every regard: it lets me mount an optic "for free". I need it. I don't want a 9 lb. rifle before ammo while I'm running up and down the hills and carrying a pack + ammo + handgun + ammo + water.

I'm pretty sure that this non-Olympian can tell the difference between 5lbs. and 7lbs. in this case. At least it feels like I can somewhere around the 8K mark when my stuff is starting to fall apart. Meanwhile, in my case, it's supposed to be one part of a larger weight-saving solution: Goal is 23 lbs.: 18 on me, and 5 on gear. We'll see how it goes.
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Old November 06, 2019, 03:15   #284
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Me too. My personal experiences are more about shaving 10 or 15 pounds off a 200 pound off-road race bike, but similar to shaving one pound off a rifle.

A pocket 9mm weighs less than a 1911, which is less than an AR, which is less than a scoped model 70, which is less than a fully loaded FAL, which is less than a BAR, which is less than a 1919, ad nauseum.

You can throw a shit-ton of money at trying to save a small percentage of weight. A large, significant percentage will change the usefulness for the intended purpose. A very small percentage of weight savings may be very notable to "the pros" in that particular genre of sport (and I mean Olympic level pros), but is truly negligible to most folks versus the cost to do so. YMMV
I have spent huge money shaving weight off bicycles, remember when carbon fiber first started coming out of small custom shops. Found a company making seat posts that cost $375 plus shipping, had a 150 pound rider limit and no warranty. If broke it first day it was on you. They had to do that because so many home bicycle parts swappers and even bike shops didn't have an inch/pound torque wrench and overtightening just a fudge and they split. Advertisement said straight up would get a full racing season if didn't misuse, gain weight or smack it against something. Believe their name was Bison and their seatpost were half the weight of the lightest aluminum and 30% lighter than the lightest titanium.

I was buying two per year for my Guerciotti road racing bike which could only ride from mid season through peak season or following a mountaineering trip as frame also had a 150 pound weight limit and my average "peak" weight at 5% body fat was 153 to 155 pounds according to muscle mass. Every fall would put on weight for winter ice climbing in both muscle and fat. At peak winter climbing weight was 160 to 163 at 9% to 11% body fat. Before a mountaineering trip would try to put on twenty pounds buy eating a half gallon of ice cream every evening along with tons of protein powder as generally lost thirty pounds on a four to six week trip. When came back from long trips to the Andes people thought I was an AIDS or cancer patient was so emaciated.

Had a full time trainer, full time dietician, climbing coach, cycling coach, masseuse and more. We looked at my climbing and road racing schedule and all would consult and plan my meals, training and even rest to keep me able to be competitive at two sports. During most of season and training kept a Trek Project One full custom down to paint with my name painted on the frame. Wife was stunned to first discover my bikes (ordered withojut wheels, seat or bars) cost $6,000 to $9,000 back 25 years ago. Winter rode a steel frame Guerciotti that is possibly the most comfortable road frame have ever ridden and also used it when racing Criterion's due to its durability. Could bunny hop over curbs, hop onto the sidewalk, hit speed bumps at full speed and tangle with other bikes still getting out of the pile road worthy while others were looking at broken strands of carbon fiber.

Raced on Rolf Vector Pros and trained on Rolf Vector Comps which were all handmade in Switzerland and could buy a good used car for price of a set of Rolf Vectors. Rode Michelin tires that cost more for a bicycle tire than paid for an all terrain Michelin truck tire. People think guns or even motorcycles are expensive start chasing a road bike racing fleet. Main road racing bike with backup for training and to ride if main bike suffers a mechanical on race morning. A Criterion bike for super tight course shoulder to shoulder, wheel to wheel racing where folks are pushing and even throwing the odd punch all while trying not to have a man hole cover, curb, speed bump or speed table, etc take you down. Night bike set up with lights in case work load forces you to ride after dark to get miles in. Then they every two to three year major drivetrain upgrade because manufacturers come up with new system that has more speeds and is lighter, at least one new frame per year to keep them current enough over time the fleet gets the job done without causing undue work on rider. Then the travel costs to races all over a region like the Southeast.

When I began to see the same trend in AR builds I made the decision was not going that route and seriously trying to build lightest rifle possible. Am sure can build a sub four pound rifle without scope and mounts but will have to use so many overly light parts that I would not trust it for anything more than a range toy. I have a few range toys but mine are usually built to shoot very small groups in paper then can take varmint hunting as well. Last I checked the lightest factory AR 15 was 3.65 pounds with integral 3D printed suppressor and the lightest build claimed over on barfdotcom was 3.41 pounds. I know the 3.41 pound build could be beat but not revealing which trick parts the others in the sub 3.5 pound group have not used yet that I have. When did a parts count based on weighing all parts on a $3,000 scientific scale that have not seen others use then going on manufacturers claims on parts I didn't have in stock to weigh know 3.3 pounds is obtainable with a sub four pound weight running a scope. That was about a year back I built the parts list and weight but didn't account for material would remove by machining slots, drilling holes and parts that have been released in past year. As twitchy as my body is getting with age shooting a three to four pound rifle off hand would likely end up with me duct taping a brick to rifle to help me hold it still.
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Old November 07, 2019, 11:34   #285
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After having spent a few hours running with rifles and packs and trying to be ready to shoot well - either fast 'n' close or out to 500 or 600, I've come to the conclusion that I want as much of an advantage as I can get while I run against the 20-somethings. I'm not trying to beat them for running: I'm trying to shoot smoothly enough to stay in the game while I'm running like the Delta Diamond/Desk Jockey that I am.

If it's built well, a 5 lb. rifle is superior to a 7 lb. rifle in almost every regard: it lets me mount an optic "for free". I need it. I don't want a 9 lb. rifle before ammo while I'm running up and down the hills and carrying a pack + ammo + handgun + ammo + water.

I'm pretty sure that this non-Olympian can tell the difference between 5lbs. and 7lbs. in this case. At least it feels like I can somewhere around the 8K mark when my stuff is starting to fall apart. Meanwhile, in my case, it's supposed to be one part of a larger weight-saving solution: Goal is 23 lbs.: 18 on me, and 5 on gear. We'll see how it goes.
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Old November 07, 2019, 11:41   #286
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Whenever my kids walk into the garage and see me doing dry-firing or working on guns, they want to know if they can play Fortunate Son on the playlist. I don't know if that's Freedom Rock, but it's something like it.

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Can you imagine the hate that would flow your way from proven flame-war experts hardened like iron in the fire from this barely-survivable flame-war training ground you've started up?

You'd be like Soviet army invading Afghanistan. Looks easy at first, and then years of misery to follow...
Confound the children.

Or go start an AK build thread.

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Old December 11, 2019, 12:00   #287
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Chirp, chirp...



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Old December 12, 2019, 05:18   #288
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I thought that this thread was dead!
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Old December 12, 2019, 08:08   #289
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After having spent a few hours running with rifles and packs and trying to be ready to shoot well - either fast 'n' close or out to 500 or 600, I've come to the conclusion that I want as much of an advantage as I can get while I run against the 20-somethings. I'm not trying to beat them for running: I'm trying to shoot smoothly enough to stay in the game while I'm running like the Delta Diamond/Desk Jockey that I am.

If it's built well, a 5 lb. rifle is superior to a 7 lb. rifle in almost every regard: it lets me mount an optic "for free". I need it. I don't want a 9 lb. rifle before ammo while I'm running up and down the hills and carrying a pack + ammo + handgun + ammo + water.

I'm pretty sure that this non-Olympian can tell the difference between 5lbs. and 7lbs. in this case. At least it feels like I can somewhere around the 8K mark when my stuff is starting to fall apart. Meanwhile, in my case, it's supposed to be one part of a larger weight-saving solution: Goal is 23 lbs.: 18 on me, and 5 on gear. We'll see how it goes.
Try Tactical Tailor out of Washington States Fight Lite line of soft gear. From gear racking, packs, clothing and more can trim several pounds off your kit but they do admit its not as durable as their main line. Designed for a few missions then replace but when going into the vortex if a soldier can drop ten pounds off their load that's ten more pounds of ammo they can carry. Or just be ten pounds lighter.

https://www.tacticaltailor.com/index.aspx
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Old December 13, 2019, 21:34   #290
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Chirp, chirp...



Forrest
I know!! I just got back from the east coast, so I'm a little behind.


I wonder if I"m going to get any David vs. Goliath shooting in this weekend. It's kinda cold out there.
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Old December 13, 2019, 21:38   #291
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A true Operator with a pure heart would visualize a 0 lb 0 oz carbine, and once unencumbered defeat all enemies.



The rifle I"m building ain't 0.0 lbs, and I'm not The Chosen One, so I can't make my mind imagine one.

But I'm working on the Pure Heart thing. I ate dinner with one John Hutt last night, and that SOB was telling me that he ran 19 miles the day before - just getting ready for the January Run 'n' Gun in Oklahoma.

I almost choked on my food. He asked if I wanted to go to the climbing gym after dinner. That time I just laughed in his face.

This ^ is why I need a lighter gun. I'm neither 35, single, nor that disciplined.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old December 13, 2019, 21:40   #292
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Try Tactical Tailor out of Washington States Fight Lite line of soft gear. From gear racking, packs, clothing and more can trim several pounds off your kit but they do admit its not as durable as their main line. Designed for a few missions then replace but when going into the vortex if a soldier can drop ten pounds off their load that's ten more pounds of ammo they can carry. Or just be ten pounds lighter.

https://www.tacticaltailor.com/index.aspx
Huey -

Yeah, but I'm not budget-able to do the disposable gear thing.

I am, however, moving toward some lighter gear stuff. The 500D stuff is good, and the laser cut "hypalon" (whatever) is as strong as cordura - and more durable. Thank goodness I have a grown son to pass the still-nearly-new stuff down to...
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old December 14, 2019, 16:46   #293
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Their Fight Light gear is a little better than disposable as my primary kit is mostly fight light and has held up fine as little as it is used. If I were the Chief Petty Officer for a SEAL Team and had nobody questioning my gear costs per high value mission would buy every member of the team a brand new Tactical Tailor Fight Light kit in best color for upcoming mission or just keep a dozen Fight Light kits in multicam, digital woodland, digital desert and coyote.

For a mission that may be out in the deep dark woods for a possibly long period of time every team member would pull a new kit in chosen color/pattern. Would order all shipped wirhout any labels so the team uniforms are scrubbed unless choose to Velcro on any insignia. Would keep all used kits for fly in, spend 30 to 90 minutes extracting or killing a target where longest part of mission other than flight in and out would be gathering lap tops, hard drives, thumb drives and anything paper of possible value. While the Fight Light is not as durable as a standard issue uniform which is made to be worn regularly for an entire deployment with just a few uniforms in rotation of clean, dirty, laundry and repair.

I have spent fourty years rock and ice climbing and about thirty of that with high altitude mountaineering mixed in. Now my rock climbing is predominantly east coast one to five pitch moderate cragging and ice climbing one to three pitch first ascents not ever climbed by anyone. (a pitch is generally a rope length but based on best place to break a climb up into sections with safe belays a pitch can vary from fifty to two hundred feet) based on climb may carry a single 8.5 to 9mm rope up to a single 11mm rope from 120 to 200 feet long bit usually a 10mm diameter by 160 foot long rope. If in high ice or rock fall area two 8mm to 8.8 mm ropes called "doubles" are used to reduce risk of rope cut and death. Odds of cutting two ropes of even thin diameter are very low.

All of my gear used above 14,000 feet in altitude is lightweight. Once I get above 16,000 feet ounces feel like pounds. I know where all the good street vendor repair shops with men that can sew two pieces of cloth thin as fishnet together where will still hold a hundred pounds up a couple more hills. It's not uncommon for me to pack gear that has blown straps or big rips when going to the Andes as in Huraz Peru and La Paz Bolivia along with other little towns from Eqiudor to Patagonia know where the market is and each markets best seamstress knowing their repair work will be better than any I get in the U.S. and I have a top flight local seamstress along with leather repair shop that can fix most boot issues and heavy sewing my seamstress machines won't handle.

I do not mind using lightweight gear that has been repaired properly a half dozen times or more. It's just what kind of gear is it and who is available to.repair it. If in the Rockies, Cascades, White Mountains of New Hampshire will buy newest and best piece of gear if blow a piece of soft gear out or break hard gear. But next trip the torn gear may have been repaired or packed to have repaired while acclimatizing. Not uncommon for us to land in Huraz which is at 14,000 feet after a twelve hour bus ride from sea level in Lima then spend our first couple days taking packs and clothing to local street vendors using sewing machines that are pedal powered to get all the team gear fixed for first trip into our acclimatization peaks.

Same with my Fight Light and other lightweight uniforms, load bearing gear and such. Every vest has a USGI issue adhesive patch kit. Have one lightweight multicam pattern pack that blew both straps. Had one fixed and other broke within a couple months. But my seamstress then knew where the weak spots were and added more material allowing heavier sewing including a bar tacking machine that basically welds cloth together the sewing is so durable. Can buy lightweight and then repair as needed often upgrading the attachment point of strap that blew and do same to strap on other side before it blows. A specific seam rips reinforce it when fixed and any other similar seams before they blow and can actually turn a lightweight piece of gear into a durable and lightweight piece of gear once the weak points are found in manner you use it and fix appropriately.

It's a fine line learning where you can cut weight and not have failures on the field then it's an art to figure out how to fix those weak areas to point gear is better than when new. My Right Light gear will probably hold up longer than I will at this point but I still use it when training on a heavy load day to look for the weak spots. That said, most current USGI gear is pretty decent except armor which should be remedied with the new system being phased in over 2020. IOTV is actually good stuff if pitch the USGI ceramic level 3 plates and replace with Tencate level 4 that weighs less than five pounds per plate. I test everything from underwear to armor and load bearing to be light and durable. Learn where to give up a little weight for durability and where to shave it for speed.

The best part is every year you get to try new gear and thus the kit is always getting lighter and stronger as old bodies begin to fail. I need every advantage I can get now when twenty years ago humping my pack a team pack and sick clients pack was just another beautiful day in the mountains.
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Old March 05, 2020, 02:21   #294
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Chirp, chirp...



Forrest
I'm back... or, more importantly, the Contest is back.

Terry and I went to the range to do some El Cheap vs. El Guapo shooting. While El Guapo was the winner today with a variety of ammo, I'm pretty sure the ROI just does NOT exist. You'll see what I mean...

All of that ^ being said, there is a reliability factor that may or may not ever get sorted out - at this rate anyway. If I only shoot 16 rounds per gun per quarter, it'll take me 500 years to shoot enough rounds to reach the MRBF on the El Cheapo bolt.

Also, and sorta not that big a deal according to the shooting results, but the trigger in El Cheapo sucks giant dog balls. I wouldn't want to be in a hurry to shoot that carefully with a trigger that sucky. I did a lot of do-overs on breathing and holds to get those outcomes. The other rifle shot a lot easier. Who cares?!? For $2000 bucks more than El Cheapo, I do.


Picture of El Guapo:

Ha! There is no picture of El Guapo. Well, there is... but I've already posted it here earlier.


Picture of El Cheapo and 'stats':

No-name, junker LPK. It was going to be PSA, but Terry just used whatever I had in unlabeled boxes. PSA upper. Billet lower I gave $39 bucks for. PSA furniture. Vortex Strike Eagle Gen I 1-6. Chin-made mount. Bitchin' Raiders sticker from Invictus77, because he Freaking Rocks.







And the targets shot by the competing rifles today - complete with explanation...

1. Four types of ammo were shot as part of the test:

a. Hornady Frontier-brand 62 gr. HPBT - not M855
b. Hornady Match 75 gr. HPBT (white box - not 'Superformance', which sucks)
c. Dodge City 'match project': Hornady 75 gr. HPBT tip over 24.5 gr. Varget
d. Dodge City 'bullet project': 70 gr. bullet w/ swaged lead wire core inside brass jacket over 24.0 gr. Varget

2. Four rounds per each ammo type through each of four guns.

3. All shots from prone @ 100 yards: front on rest, rear on shoulder no bag or support.

4. Scopes were moved before the test, but not moved during the test. So we were shooting for groups, not for Bullseyes.

5. Two other rifles shot a bit better than El Cheapo, and one of those two shot better than El Guapo. But who cares - they're not part of this Mano-a-Mano Contest to the Pain, and introducing them would only be making more confusion anyway.

El Cheapo, aka "Raiders"



Same target, close up:



Results:

1. 1.5" for four shots in the bottom group using Frontier 62 gr. BTHP

2. 2.0" for four shots in the bottom red square using Hornady Match 75 gr. BTHP - though you can see the horizontal 'flyer' on the right. Coulda been better...

3. Giant 12" Not-A-Group just below middle red square using D.C. 'bullet project' ammo. It's a Do-Over at this point.

4. 2.5" for four shots in the middle red square using D.C. 'match project' ammo. Needs tuning at this point.


El Guapo:



Same target, close up:



Results:

1. 1.5" Frontier 62 gr. BTHP in four shots just below center red square

2. 1.25" Hornady 75 gr. BTHP 'match' in four shots just below center red square

3. Giant Not-A-Group with D.C. 'bullet project'

4. 1.375" Dodge City 'match project' in four shots just below top red square



So... for today only, it looks like there is a noticeable difference: 1.5" is the smallest group on El Cheapo, and it is the largest group on El Guapo. That being said, there is only 1/4" difference between the smallest groups: 1.25" to 1.5" - so initially it looks like the ROI is pretty weak.
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Old March 05, 2020, 08:38   #295
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After having spent a few hours running with rifles and packs and trying to be ready to shoot well - either fast 'n' close or out to 500 or 600, I've come to the conclusion that I want as much of an advantage as I can get while I run against the 20-somethings. I'm not trying to beat them for running: I'm trying to shoot smoothly enough to stay in the game while I'm running like the Delta Diamond/Desk Jockey that I am.

If it's built well, a 5 lb. rifle is superior to a 7 lb. rifle in almost every regard: it lets me mount an optic "for free". I need it. I don't want a 9 lb. rifle before ammo while I'm running up and down the hills and carrying a pack + ammo + handgun + ammo + water.

I'm pretty sure that this non-Olympian can tell the difference between 5lbs. and 7lbs. in this case. At least it feels like I can somewhere around the 8K mark when my stuff is starting to fall apart. Meanwhile, in my case, it's supposed to be one part of a larger weight-saving solution: Goal is 23 lbs.: 18 on me, and 5 on gear. We'll see how it goes.
You gonna take this show on the road to Oklahoma in July?
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Old March 05, 2020, 09:27   #296
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Man, I sure hope so.

I can't believe how many miles I'm logging on planes instead of running shoes, but I think I'll have a break coming by then.

OK is the beginning of it for me. I should come suffer in the summer time like all the real men out there.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old March 05, 2020, 10:01   #297
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Man, I sure hope so.

I can't believe how many miles I'm logging on planes instead of running shoes, but I think I'll have a break coming by then.

OK is the beginning of it for me. I should come suffer in the summer time like all the real men out there.
Dude - we have a few women that kick some serious butt out there now as well.
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Old March 05, 2020, 10:23   #298
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Yes - didn't mean to leave them out. Kelly beat my ass in the run portion of the last Legion 9/11 match, and I'm sure Melanie did, too. Prolly others there, as well.

I'm working on the 23 lb. reduction. Gear is easier than waistline...
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old March 05, 2020, 11:51   #299
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Fantastic share. Albeit painful. That diminishing marginal utility will get you every time.

Question; does it feel smoother when you shoot El Guapo? I've spent a lot of time and effort to test out different parts/science/snake oil to get my ARs to shoot as smoothly as my Swiss and even US Sigs. It's been a complete waste of time. I'm ready to cave at this point. I know it's just a tool, but... come range day I always much prefer to shoot my Sigs, or FAL, or M1A, or even the AK over my ARs (thus far). Am I missing something?? I feel like I'm choosing light, sugar free, vanilla frozen yogurt at the state fair every time I pick one up. #nosnobbery
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Old March 05, 2020, 19:53   #300
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I find El Cheapo very difficult to shoot, both offhand and prone. I think that these (personal) issues are related to:

1. worst trigger ever = prone/precision difficulty
2. my long, monkey arms = offhand/action difficulty with the short hand guards

I very much like El Guapo for precision shooting, and I think I could do better yet with a little familiarity. Meanwhile, the 18" SS target barrel isn't super handy.

I like best the ARs I've built around the Daniel Defense pencil barrel (16", CHF, chrome) with JP Rifles bolt & carrier. Light, handy/pointable, accurate, and smooth.

And while they don't outshoot El Guapo, they don't cost as much, either. And they DO outshoot El Cheapo. I also expect them to last longer due to the expensive bolt/carrier, but I'm not a big torture-tester, either.
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