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Old October 08, 2019, 08:00   #1
OMCHamlin
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Well, well, an old No4 MK1 with...

Telescopic sight mounting pads, and all of her un-molested wood! Annnnd... a very bad bore, annnnd, a missing rear sight leaf and pin (well gosh, bubba HAD to take THAT off to make room for his bubba scope mount! Oh, and no magazine...
Oh well, a project, I guess...

I'll clean her up a little and post a pic in the next couple of days.



Last edited by OMCHamlin; October 09, 2019 at 02:45.
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Old October 08, 2019, 08:58   #2
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If bubba oly removed the sight instead of grinding the base off, you are not in bad shape. Barrels are not that hard to come by
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Old October 08, 2019, 10:47   #3
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Clean it well, starting with a strong copper solvent. Might just be crud on top of the lands and grooves.

I don't know what it is about the Brits, did they just tell their troops to use motor oil and bootlaces to clean guns...
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Old October 08, 2019, 11:02   #4
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Clean it well, starting with a strong copper solvent. Might just be crud on top of the lands and grooves.

I don't know what it is about the Brits, did they just tell their troops to use motor oil and bootlaces to clean guns...
Probably just used the best propellant in the world, cordite...

After all, they blew up (more or less) a couple of their own battleships with it.

So did the Imperial Japanese Navy...

Forrest
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Old October 09, 2019, 08:33   #5
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Clean it well, starting with a strong copper solvent. Might just be crud on top of the lands and grooves.

I don't know what it is about the Brits, did they just tell their troops to use motor oil and bootlaces to clean guns...
I do wish that worked with my FN-49 barrel. It looks rough.


It seems French soldiers in the desert during the MAS 49 and 49/56 years were told to clean the bolts in diesel and lube with used motor oil. Gas tube was cleaned by shooting more.
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Old October 09, 2019, 08:46   #6
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I might have a No 4 mag. PM me if you're so inclined
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Old October 09, 2019, 18:12   #7
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I might have a No 4 mag. PM me if you're so inclined
PM sent.
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Old October 09, 2019, 20:29   #8
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Clean it well, starting with a strong copper solvent. Might just be crud on top of the lands and grooves.

I don't know what it is about the Brits, did they just tell their troops to use motor oil and bootlaces to clean guns...
Well, so I've started. Good grief, that HAS to be the nastiest non-muzzle loading barrel I have ever tried to clean! I led strong with Butch's Bore Shine, then patches with #9, oil and dry. Then more Butch's, brush, #9, oil, dry, repeat, repeat, repeat. My patch stash is going to take a material hit on this project.

Before, it was like a black hole, even sucking up the light from my LED Key light, making it look like a 80's vintage Mini Mag Light AAA beam! It's slightly improving, the lands look decent(ish), but the grooves are packed still. Maybe hope (probably not...) Tomorrow: J&B Bore Paste.

I took the Bubba-Gump "No-Gunsmithing Mount" off of it, and I don't see where anything was filed, ground or cut, so I guess a replacement stamped rear sight would be okay for this? Can one of you guys in the know tell me what parts go along with that? Some sort of axle and flat spring for the sight body to the receiver, I guess? The Bubba mount also replaced a screw forward on the left side of the action, down low, is that the ejector screw?
If I can scrounge those parts and sub assemblies, along with a sling swivel (front, but not all the way forward.), I think I'll have it complete, maybe I'll even luck out and find a spike bayonet sheath & frog at the next gun show, who knows?
Anyhow, if anybody can tell me of those areas mentioned, if my mental parts list is correct, or if I am leaving something out, that would be great!
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Old October 09, 2019, 20:32   #9
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Well, so I've started. Good grief, that HAS to be the nastiest non-muzzle loading barrel I have ever tried to clean! I led strong with Butch's Bore Shine, then patches with #9, oil and dry. Then more Butch's, brush, #9, oil, dry, repeat, repeat, repeat. My patch stash is going to take a material hit on this project.

Before, it was like a black hole, even sucking up the light from my LED Key light, making it look like a 80's vintage Mini Mag Light AAA beam! It's slightly improving, the lands look decent(ish), but the grooves are packed still. Maybe hope (probably not...) Tomorrow: J&B Bore Paste.

I took the Bubba-Gump "No-Gunsmithing Mount" off of it, and I don't see where anything was filed, ground or cut, so I guess a replacement stamped rear sight would be okay for this? Can one of you guys in the know tell me what parts go along with that? Some sort of axle and flat spring for the sight body to the receiver, I guess? The Bubba mount also replaced a screw forward on the left side of the action, down low, is that the ejector screw?
If I can scrounge those parts and sub assemblies, along with a sling swivel (front, but not all the way forward.), I think I'll have it complete, maybe I'll even luck out and find a spike bayonet sheath & frog at the next gun show, who knows?
Anyhow, if anybody can tell me of those areas mentioned, if my mental parts list is correct, or if I am leaving something out, that would be great!
Oh, and one more question; Why is my cocking piece different from other ones?
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Old October 09, 2019, 20:48   #10
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You have an earlier round cocking piece,

The sight has a spring, a plunger thingy and the sight goes on top. Easy to replace if you have the parts.

Keep cleaning!
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Old October 09, 2019, 21:42   #11
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You have an earlier round cocking piece,

The sight has a spring, a plunger thingy and the sight goes on top. Easy to replace if you have the parts.

Keep cleaning!
Interesting, does the "S" on the L side indicate Savage made in 1942? Gosh, I wonder if this could have been an unmarked T at one time? (Or still is?)
I guess the proper rear sight might be the milled micrometer, with the battle peep ground off for scope clearance?
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Old October 12, 2019, 12:05   #12
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With those pads in place I would recommend one of these.

It's an exact reproduction of the mount used in WW2 on there No 4 Mk 1 T rifles. They are made by a Mr. Roger Paine in the U.K., last I checked he was out of them. This is an extra that I have if you're interested.






Also here is a link to a thread on how I got my T, there are some good pics that maybe will help you ID some markings on your new baby. These rifles shoot really well, that barrel might surprise you.

https://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438260


Cheek riser
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1085330

https://www.sarcoinc.com/no-4-mk1-t-...e-cheek-piece/

Rear sight
https://www.apexgunparts.com/enfield...ear-sight.html

Heck just check out Apex's page they have tons of stuff for the Enfield
https://www.apexgunparts.com/catalog...ult/?q=enfield
Spike bayonet
https://www.northridgeinc.com/product-p/smle-16.htm
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Anonymous
The FAL is not a "platform".
It is a lady-lookin' foreign made collection of sexy Belgian curves that intimidates the shit out of today's Pajama-boy males.

It's not an Assault Rifle, it a Sport Utility Rifle

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Old October 12, 2019, 13:54   #13
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While I was looking for items that you could use in your restoration I found & BOUGHT this

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/835291655

Now if I can find a .308 barrel, magazine & No 32 scope.....
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Originally said by hkshooter…
"Youth has it's advantages but having money isn't usually one of them."

Anonymous
The FAL is not a "platform".
It is a lady-lookin' foreign made collection of sexy Belgian curves that intimidates the shit out of today's Pajama-boy males.

It's not an Assault Rifle, it a Sport Utility Rifle
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Old October 12, 2019, 15:54   #14
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While I was looking for items that you could use in your restoration I found & BOUGHT this

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/835291655

Now if I can find a .308 barrel, magazine & No 32 scope.....
Wow! That's a nice find, glad you snagged it! I've got a pile of small parts on the way from various sources, and some ammo as well. I'll get a rear sight on it, shoot it some and see if:
A. It will clean up by warming the bore and running some more patches through it.
B. If it shoots worth a crap at all either way.

Then, based on that, I'll look at a scope mount and proper kit for it, or move it on to someone that wants it as a larger project.
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Old October 12, 2019, 18:41   #15
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Don't give up on the barrel until you have given it a last and final try......scrub it with a rod, and WD40 soaked STEEL WOOL.

I have been amazed at what an be accomplished with a fierce scrubbing and steel wool.
Bore Brushes, steel or copper, are only for good barrels.
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Old October 12, 2019, 21:17   #16
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Take the rifle and some ammo to the range with your cleaning gear. Pop off a couple of rounds to warm up the barrel and go to town with the cleaning rod, solvent and patches. Rinse and repeat .
I was able to clean up a very nasty barrel on my U.S. Model 1917. I couldn't believe the amount of crud that I was able to remove. This was after scrubbing the barrel for about a week and not getting it cleaned up.
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Old October 12, 2019, 22:54   #17
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Take the rifle and some ammo to the range with your cleaning gear. Pop off a couple of rounds to warm up the barrel and go to town with the cleaning rod, solvent and patches. Rinse and repeat .
I was able to clean up a very nasty barrel on my U.S. Model 1917. I couldn't believe the amount of crud that I was able to remove. This was after scrubbing the barrel for about a week and not getting it cleaned up.
Yep, that right there. That's just about the level of success I need, I've got a week scrubbing, so a few rounds and patches, if that would loosen up the garbage down in the groves, that'd be great!
(we'll see though...)
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Old October 14, 2019, 23:17   #18
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HOPPIES Bench rest bore cleaner --soak with an squirt bottle ..scrub with a SS Brush and soak again =leave over night repeat as necessary--works for me !

I have rubbed a patch with valve lapping compound and worked and worked and WORKED a badly rusted bore --sometimes they can be saved !!
I am going to try the emery infused bullets trick when I get a chance !!
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Old October 15, 2019, 01:22   #19
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I have found that foaming bore cleaner excels for cleaning up nasty old rifle barrels, especially milsurps. Fill the bore and chamber and allow it to sit overnight. Clean. Repeat as needed. A couple of applications should get you down to bare metal. You may not like what you find, but...

Sarco is advertising some like new barrels for a not unreasonable price, and I believe that also Criterion offers a new No.4 barrel.
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Old October 15, 2019, 03:03   #20
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I have found that foaming bore cleaner excels for cleaning up nasty old rifle barrels, especially milsurps. Fill the bore and chamber and allow it to sit overnight. Clean. Repeat as needed. A couple of applications should get you down to bare metal. You may not like what you find, but...

Sarco is advertising some like new barrels for a not unreasonable price, and I believe that also Criterion offers a new No.4 barrel.
Darn! And I was out and forgot to look for that, oh well, I'll get out and look today, that sounds like a good idea, maybe even soak overnight, patch dry and shoot, repeat, might do something? I haven't ruled out steel wool but want to keep that as a last resort
Well, or steel wool on a rod on a cordless drill, no, maybe that's a last resort...
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Old October 15, 2019, 18:33   #21
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It took me three weeks to get my Model 1917 bore cleaned to where it would shoot groups instead of patterns. Just keep at it and it will come clean.
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Old October 17, 2019, 20:06   #22
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Well, the bore cleaning has come to a certain plateau, so it's time to go put a round or two through this to see what it does. On the plus side, I am beginning to believe I may actually have one of the earlier Savage made No.4 MK1(T) rifles, insofar as the Savage guns weren't marked in the conventional methodologies in use in the UK a short time later. I also note, it appears to have a S51 marked buttstock, with two holes drilled in it for a cheek pad, not present with the rifle, which at least seems to mean the buttstock was an item from the Holland & Holland "rifle conditioning" program(e).

Kinda cool to think it might be, but if other, more knowledgeable folks care to discuss the "it might actually be a real one" theory, please do! Tell me what to look for. It does not have that angled sling swivel forward of the magazine, but apparently that was not done on the earlier ones, although if they have been through an FTR, one could have been added, or by an armorer.

Last edited by OMCHamlin; October 18, 2019 at 03:58.
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Old October 17, 2019, 22:50   #23
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Bore size

Found on my #4 Mk1 the nice shiny bore slugged at .315 . Looking to purchase some cast bullets now as all jacketed ones are .311 - .312 . From what I've read the Brits did not hit the .311 groove dimension on a lot of rifles. Maybe your Savage is better made.
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Old October 18, 2019, 03:44   #24
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Found on my #4 Mk1 the nice shiny bore slugged at .315 . Looking to purchase some cast bullets now as all jacketed ones are .311 - .312 . From what I've read the Brits did not hit the .311 groove dimension on a lot of rifles. Maybe your Savage is better made.
It's a SAVAGE, of course it was better made! (maybe?)
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Old October 18, 2019, 12:16   #25
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S51 is H&H wartime code
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Originally said by hkshooter…
"Youth has it's advantages but having money isn't usually one of them."

Anonymous
The FAL is not a "platform".
It is a lady-lookin' foreign made collection of sexy Belgian curves that intimidates the shit out of today's Pajama-boy males.

It's not an Assault Rifle, it a Sport Utility Rifle
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Old October 19, 2019, 15:08   #26
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Originally Posted by TerryN View Post
I have found that foaming bore cleaner excels for cleaning up nasty old rifle barrels, especially milsurps. Fill the bore and chamber and allow it to sit overnight. Clean. Repeat as needed. A couple of applications should get you down to bare metal. You may not like what you find, but...

Sarco is advertising some like new barrels for a not unreasonable price, and I believe that also Criterion offers a new No.4 barrel.
Seconds on the foaming bore cleaner route. I had an SMLE that patterned like a shotgun...spent an entire winter decoppering it with foaming bore cleaner (just kept using it till the patches stopped coming out blue), took it to the range the next spring and it was like night and day. Not like a new rifle, obviously, but it shot a LOT tighter than before.
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Old October 19, 2019, 19:30   #27
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For you evening reading now that most of the football games are over.Tried to give lots of pics for comparison as well as markings for similarities.

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...le-(less-scope)

http://www.lsbauctions.com/3434/rare...e-mfd-1942-cr/

Serial numbers (long read) https://forums.gunboards.com/archive...php/t-735.html

https://www.northeastshooters.com/xe...escope.297507/
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Old October 20, 2019, 03:42   #28
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For you evening reading now that most of the football games are over.Tried to give lots of pics for comparison as well as markings for similarities.
Man, what great resources, thank you VERY much!
S/N on this guy is 13C68XX, if you are a member of Gun Boards, could you report that one for me with a 1942 date? S marked, 1942 No4 MK I (no"*" visible, just "MK I"). Again, it also has an S51 on the butt stock, but no "T" or "TR" anywhere. Also, button cocking piece and S/N numbered to bolt, on back of bolt handle. Pads in place. I had to replace the rear sight, got a milled micrometer version, but of course it has the battle peep. I had to put something there. Oh, and it does have holes drilled for a (missing) cheekpiece.
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Old October 20, 2019, 15:27   #29
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Does it have the M47C stamp on the band in between the buttstock & receiver?
If so try to clean up that band, maybe there is a TR that you just cant see right now.
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Originally said by hkshooter…
"Youth has it's advantages but having money isn't usually one of them."

Anonymous
The FAL is not a "platform".
It is a lady-lookin' foreign made collection of sexy Belgian curves that intimidates the shit out of today's Pajama-boy males.

It's not an Assault Rifle, it a Sport Utility Rifle
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Old October 20, 2019, 19:29   #30
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Does it have the M47C stamp on the band in between the buttstock & receiver?
If so try to clean up that band, maybe there is a TR that you just cant see right now.
That's one thing that really concerns me, it does not have a single marking on that band except the serial number.

I did manage to pick up a decent original magazine today at the VA Beach gun show, one with the follower marked S.M.C.
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Old October 23, 2019, 19:41   #31
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So I got my foaming bore cleaner today (Wipe Out) and used it according to directions. I have not recleaned it yet, but I will again, just to see what shooting does for it.
Even with a "less than stellar" bore, she does just fine, even shoots to POA w/S&B 170 gr SPs.

Two shooters, same group, the X is a double. I think she wants to shoot, I really do. I may not be done with her yet...

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Old November 08, 2019, 14:52   #32
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Would love to return my "T" to its original H&H glory. Sadly it was a victim of post-war sporterizing. I have the original scope base with the original wheel bolts screwed to the T-marked receiver, but for some reason the top of the rings were replaced at some point. The worst part is the cut barrel. I know I can always sort of reproduce at least the look of the stock, but the barrel would need complete replacement as it's only 20" long now. Interestingly though the old girl will shoot about 1.5moa with recent factory ammo, so it serves today as my daughter's deer and pig rifle. She appreciates the relatively big boom with conversely relatively soft recoil. One of these days I'll work up a load and see just what it is really still capable of here near 75 years later, but for the meantime it does its job with aplomb, just like it should.
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Old November 11, 2019, 18:20   #33
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maybe i have found out why my lee enfield is lucky to as they say in scotland " could not hit a cow on the arse wi a stick" i have owned the rifle for 15 years only took it to the range once. been to busy on life things like work. anyway reading this post i will try the bore cleaner first and see how we go. i love this site some great info and knowledge. any advice is appreciated.
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Old November 14, 2019, 10:06   #34
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So glad I stumbled across this post! I'm from the UK originally and shot the No8 (.22) in the Cadets. Was chuffed to find a cheap No4 Mk1*. The barrel is also pretty mucky, the grooves look great, but the lining is a bit dull. Like you, I've spent ages running patches through with solvent (the Hoppes stuff), but still getting dirty patches all the time. I've bought that foaming stuff you recommended to see. From what I remember, accuracy issues with these are either bedding issues (front band or receiver) or damage to the crown of the barrel. There's a good channel here that goes over it https://www.youtube.com/user/EnfieldAccurizing/videos. Have a look at the 100yrd targets below. I'm not overly pleased with them, but I spent years shooting expensive stuff (badly) in competition, so I'm never going to be.




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Old November 14, 2019, 10:07   #35
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Sorry about the huge images, I was assuming PHPBB would resize them :/
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Old November 16, 2019, 14:09   #36
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I need to shoot mine some more, using that nice micrometer and smaller aperture sight rather then that big, sloppy battle peep rear sight.
I just don’t know if I going to follow through with a replica scope and mount, too much money to tie up in a gun that is really neat, but would still not be a true, complete #4 MkI T. Once I’m satisfied that it shoots with irons, maybe I’ll pass it on to someone who will take it all the way.
I’ll have to figure out where to advertise it and what is a realistic asking price when I do.
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Old November 29, 2019, 12:10   #37
BiGB808
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Those are terrible cleaning rods to use.

Your going to cause more damage than good.

Go buy a 1 piece Dewey coated or similar if you're going to be going to town with a case of patches
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