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Old January 31, 2018, 01:53   #101
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the katrina mess showed one must be adaptable. its not so much having pallets of gear laying around but the ability to adjust. shtf means something different to everyone, i know a lot of geezers who can barely walk , the weakest of the weak, going to leave them to die in place? children? or just write their ass off?
i am moving back to a more urban area & need to get my mind right, can’t walk around urban areas with an fal, tavor a better choice, go grayman, must adjust.
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Old January 31, 2018, 02:08   #102
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
I were a EMT and combat aidsman (rode a bus, and patched up after IED'S.) And the FD is working on dates for an EMT class for me to get that back. (What I WANT is Wilderness EMT.)

+ one of my buddies is a former combat medic.

Dinner tonight was my 18 hour smoked (wild) pulled pork that I pressure canned. (500-600 home canned jars of food on the wall behind me.... I STRONGLY recomend tattler reuseable lids!)
Tossed it in a pot on the wood stove, added some cheese and then dumped it onto nachos.
Never dated a woman who could cook better than me (sadly not that that's saying much these days.)
Dinner and my Creme Brule is a certified 100% panty dropper.

Although being from Southern La my cooking tends towards either meat (Which except seafood which I import myself is mostly locally sourced, a good % of which I butcher myself) or things like Gumbo, red beans and rice, shrimp fettuccine...
Cajuns don't eat to live, we live to eat! I'm just lucky I'm blessed with a fast metabolism!

So no, not really. I do allright.

Eta: did I mention I'm also offgrid?
Sounds like you're pretty well set, good for you, now we just need to get several million others prepared.
We seem to have an abundance of old combat medics here on the forums.
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Old January 31, 2018, 02:23   #103
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No one in their right mind thinks that urban areas would be safer than rural areas in a "SHTF situation".

And while the U.S. is not Serbia, we can look at the guy (Selco) who runs SHTFschool.com, and talks about his experiences with a rapid collapse (overnight...). Long story short: 1/3 of city dwellers died hard and fast. 1/3 joined gangs for protection and to loot. 1/3 made "uneasy" alliances with other strangers for mutual aid - some/many of whom made it through to the other side.

Rural people? They had tough times (no cash = sometimes difficult to barter and/or had to do without some things...), but they were fine - and excellent by comparison.


I'm semi-rural, which is the same thing as suburban IMO - just with less people. We're 80 miles from major population center, but on the edges of 50K professionals, professors, and college kids. They'll come to the "country", they are within walking distance, and I'm pretty sure they'll think that they're entitled to things that aren't theirs.

I think I'd rather be out in BFE, but I've got people and a plan here.
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Old January 31, 2018, 02:44   #104
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No one in their right mind thinks that urban areas would be safer than rural areas in a "SHTF situation".

And while the U.S. is not Serbia, we can look at the guy (Selco) who runs SHTFschool.com, and talks about his experiences with a rapid collapse (overnight...). Long story short: 1/3 of city dwellers died hard and fast. 1/3 joined gangs for protection and to loot. 1/3 made "uneasy" alliances with other strangers for mutual aid - some/many of whom made it through to the other side.

Rural people? They had tough times (no cash = sometimes difficult to barter and/or had to do without some things...), but they were fine - and excellent by comparison.


I'm semi-rural, which is the same thing as suburban IMO - just with less people. We're 80 miles from major population center, but on the edges of 50K professionals, professors, and college kids. They'll come to the "country", they are within walking distance, and I'm pretty sure they'll think that they're entitled to things that aren't theirs.

I think I'd rather be out in BFE, but I've got people and a plan here.
I would suspect your situation is the norm for most people in the country.
Out a ways, but not too far, as to be able to work, get medical care, close to stores, but not right downtown.

Inner cities, zero hope.

Your area, going to be hard for a while and you'll need a lot of help, close by support.

Many of these type areas won't make it, people will need to relocate after a while.

Something not spoken of much, fires in suburban areas, say one home on half an acre density or less, will become a constant concern.

So many ways to die and so narrow a window to survive come hard times.
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Old January 31, 2018, 02:49   #105
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I have a different outlook

Shit goes to hell I would do these things:

1...secure National Guard Armories

2...secure bulk fuel

3...secure Pharma

in that order
with manpower I would secure the bottle shops & grocery stores as well

further

Backhoe up roadways, all of them
may even take out cell and other towers

Warlords
You become that before anyone else can
too many here see themselves as potential prey doing a rehash of Waco
that's weak and gets you and yours dead

What fuel you can not pump out and isolate, you burn down
create a 70 mile plus no fuel zone around the redoubt.
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Old January 31, 2018, 02:58   #106
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Well, if city people were on foot I would feel pretty safe.
90% are not going to last more than 3 days walking distance.
No skills to get them that far out, really.

Meaning if you were 80-100 miles out from a major population,
your chances go up from fooked to might have a chance. That's
if you can get your shit together with your neighbors in that time.

You will have zero time if it happens. Or it will feel like it.
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Old January 31, 2018, 03:58   #107
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Originally Posted by Tuscan Raider View Post
Well, if city people were on foot I would feel pretty safe.
90% are not going to last more than 3 days walking distance.
No skills to get them that far out, really.

Meaning if you were 80-100 miles out from a major population,
your chances go up from fooked to might have a chance. That's
if you can get your shit together with your neighbors in that time.

You will have zero time if it happens. Or it will feel like it.
Just for discussion let's think about those city people in say the Willamette Valley oregon. Valley runs about 120 miles from Portland to Cottage Grove and is basically the interstate 5 corridoor. Portland, Wilsonville,Salem,Albany Corvallis and Eugene gives you the majority of the state's population in about a 100 mile strip. Valley is about 60 miles wide on average and maybe three million people.

On the east side of the valley you have few roads leading out, Hwy 58 at Eugene, 20 at Albany or Corvallis, hwy22 in Salem and interstate 84 out of portland but portland has another out toward mt hood. So basically we have 4 roads to move 3 million people if we have to flee to the east and only one that is an interstate.

West side goes to the coast and there isn't a Hwy with more than two lanes but there are 5 Hwy in the hundred mile strip going west with one splitting outside of corvallis philomath.

Portland you could escape by boat to the west but too many dams headed east.

We have the worst roads and they plug in a heartbeat so you would have to drive aggressively and push stalled cars off the road as they run out of fuel.

Most people won't make it out of the valley but will be scared out of their homes with little to survive on. Where they run out of gas they will either die or walk a couple of days and die as the weather here will kill most with hypothermia.

Where they run out of gas they will look for food and shelter so they will come to people's houses looking for help until they get desperate then the weak ones will give up and the strong ones will be hungry and aggressive. I am guessing about three days into an event (nuke) all the weak ones will be dead because they won't be prepared and don't bring enough food.

One of the biggest problems folks will run into is man made fires. People will try to stay warm in abandoned houses by building a fire and poof. Then the water supply will be polluted by dead bodies and no sanitation. Pets will become food or feral and try to kill you to eat.

So my point is, on the map in your area how many people will end up out of gas close to you? Around my house maybe a million depending on which way they run.
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Old January 31, 2018, 12:15   #108
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Sounds like you're pretty well set, good for you, now we just need to get several million others prepared.
We seem to have an abundance of old combat medics here on the forums.
A combat aidsman is more a 1st responder who can stick.
Due to my background and large veins I was mostly a living IV dummy for the class.

I've given up on saving the world.
I can feed everyone within 2 miles a: "rice and beans, beans and rice diet" for 3 months. That'll have to do.

You can put up 3,000 lbs of wheat in milar, with oxygen absorbers, in 5 gal buckets for the price of a midgrade FAL.

I don't know about yall but I've got 24 FAL'S and 6-9 parts kits.
Seemed rather dumb not to hedge ones bets.
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Old January 31, 2018, 12:34   #109
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A combat aidsman is more a 1st responder who can stick.
Due to my background and large veins I was mostly a living IV dummy for the class.

I've given up on saving the world.
I can feed everyone within 2 miles a: "rice and beans, beans and rice diet" for 3 months. That'll have to do.

You can put up 3,000 lbs of wheat in milar, with oxygen absorbers, in 5 gal buckets for the price of a midgrade FAL.

I don't know about yall but I've got 24 FAL'S and 6-9 parts kits.
Seemed rather dumb not to hedge ones bets.
I suspect, we're speaking of different time frames for the use and abuse of combat medics and what they were and were not expected to be able to do in the field.

My year group was expected, actually it was demanded, we be able to do whatever, whenever to keep our people alive.
A period of near zero restrictions, as in, if you knew how to do it, you did it, if you could do it, you were expected to teach the young ones how to do it.

But this was when medical transport was referred to as Dust offs and the Huey's of the day, could not fly at night or above certain altitudes, with radios that did not work well or at all and help was often days away.

I'm told that times have changed, but not always for the better.
Lawyers and large heads of people in the rear with the gear will do that if allowed.
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Old January 31, 2018, 13:00   #110
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Originally Posted by Tuscan Raider View Post
Well, if city people were on foot I would feel pretty safe.
90% are not going to last more than 3 days walking distance.
No skills to get them that far out, really.

Meaning if you were 80-100 miles out from a major population,
your chances go up from fooked to might have a chance. That's
if you can get your shit together with your neighbors in that time.

You will have zero time if it happens. Or it will feel like it.
Sounds good in theory, the greater Los Angeles area has a population of about 19 million. Kinda suck if 1.9 million people showed up at your door.
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Old January 31, 2018, 14:45   #111
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Sounds good in theory, the greater Los Angeles area has a population of about 19 million. Kinda suck if 1.9 million people showed up at your door.
They can just about reach your area on a single tank of gas, correct???
Plus the ones from the San Diego area?
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Old January 31, 2018, 16:40   #112
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You don't agree? Ya that's good because you never want science to be settled. I respect disagreement because it opens the mind to think.
I do not agree that the situation at waco properly identifies the circumstances being discussed here. That was an entirely different situation from the circumstances being discussed here.

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I would say to compare your thinking with real results like Waco. Did the community come to their rescue? Did all their guns keep them alive?
No the community did not come to help, as I stated here:

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there was nobody behind the besiegers shooting at them due to community defense, there likely would be under the circumstances discussed here.
the reason for that being they were considered deviant criminals, not people rightfully defending thier property from criminals. Therefore no one came to help them.
We would be considered law-abiding people rightfully defending our property from criminals under the circumstances being discussed here. No one would consider ourselves deviant criminals for doing so, therefore they'd have no moral objections or legal considerations to helping each other do so.
Again, a different situation.

Neither would what firearms they had have made a difference or likely helped keep them alive. Unlike the circumstances we are discussing, they faced an opponent with unlimited resources, time, and manpower. They also faced an opponent who carried moral approval amongst the populace, unlike the circumstances we are discussing.
They also faced an opponent for whom that place burning to the ground represented no loss to them, they were not there to engage in violence for the purpose of material gain, ie: raiding. Therefore that church being destroyed did not mean those people lost any gain to be had, unlike the circumstances we are discussing.
Again, a different situation.


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Maybe it's because they really didn't understand the threat.
Which threat? Federal law enforcement possibly bent on revenge motives or armed raiders?
Again, two different situations.

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Originally Posted by Bawana jim View Post
What if Sambo gets his 15 veterans together and they run out of food or they join 15 more veterans to take food? Venezuela and Argentina are not heavily armed America motivated by hunger, death and destruction.
and that is an entirely different situation from what happened at waco, as I've stated and listed reasons why.

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Just saying if a farm or ranch is going to survive it's going to take more than just guns.
No, you said waco is an example of the failure of trying to defend ones land or farm with firearms, as you specifically stated here:

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I can't post images so maybe one of you guys can post up images of Waco, pretty much sums up a group of 80 men, women and children defending their farm with just firearms.
and I don't agree it is a proper example of what we are discussing here for the reasons I've listed.
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Old January 31, 2018, 16:44   #113
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I say it depends on migratory patterns of people leaving the cities. Given my town's close proximity to California, and the fact that we are right on the Colorado River while being in a desert means there's a good chance a bunch of Californians will come rolling into town. I doubt many would stay though, as it gets fairly hot here (120 isn't uncommon during the Summer), and there are very few suitable locations to grow crops, raise cattle, or even hunt for food.

So I don't think people in rural areas will be entirely safe, as often times they are the locations with access to food, water, and often open land with a pleasant climate most of the time. Naturally that means resources, and people from the city don't often have any of those resources naturally, so they'll flock to the country. Not to mention people will be leaving for safety reasons as well.

All I can say is I wouldn't be looking forward to a Summer down here when the grid goes down, so I might consider moving North for the Summer, and back down South during the Winter.
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Old January 31, 2018, 17:53   #114
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They can just about reach your area on a single tank of gas, correct???
Plus the ones from the San Diego area?
Yepper! LA is just under 500 miles from Tucson. Could get lucky, half of them probably won't make it driving a Prius , I'll only have to stack a million or so rounds!

Of course I'll have nearly a million Tucson zombies to deal with, God only knows how many from San Diego and Phoenix. Sounds like I'm going to be busy. Maybe I can get a team of dozers and cut a massive canyon across I10 at Picacho!
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Old January 31, 2018, 18:01   #115
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In most locations in this country, if, big if, you can even see 150 man size potential targets from one location, you're doing good.

So you see this 150 man size targets heading toward your AO with evil on their minds, planning to do bad things to you and yours, then what????

You and the other four people with you, shoulder their AR's with one each 30 round magazine, maintain their own fields of fire, then shoot, killed/wound half of the attackers in your field of view, reload, and watch the remaining 75 run for the hills.

Go out later, collect boots, coats, hats, ammo and weapons, repeat as often as required.

If anyone here has not seen what 4 to 12 rifles can do working on a single location, its brutal to say the least.

Anyone coming at you en mass, is moving, moving means presentation of targets, when the target presents itself, shoot it, then move on to the next moving target.

5 rifles, with 30 round mags, can lay down 150 rounds of aimed fire in what, under 30 seconds?

In a relative small area.

Fighting from a defensive position is far better than assaulting a defensive position.

If one is fighting trained troops, they ain't assaulting nothing on a frontal plane.

This discussion is about confronting untrained starving people that might be somewhat armed.
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Old January 31, 2018, 18:08   #116
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Yepper! LA is just under 500 miles from Tucson. Could get lucky, half of them probably won't make it driving a Prius , I'll only have to stack a million or so rounds!

Of course I'll have nearly a million Tucson zombies to deal with, God only knows how many from San Diego and Phoenix. Sounds like I'm going to be busy. Maybe I can get a team of dozers and cut a massive canyon across I10 at Picacho!
If or when it gets smelly there, come on down this way.

Remember though, if ya kill it, ya got to either eat it, bury it, drag it off downwind, before it stinks up the base camp.

Rule number 8
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Old January 31, 2018, 18:28   #117
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Yepper! LA is just under 500 miles from Tucson. Could get lucky, half of them probably won't make it driving a Prius , I'll only have to stack a million or so rounds!

Of course I'll have nearly a million Tucson zombies to deal with, God only knows how many from San Diego and Phoenix. Sounds like I'm going to be busy. Maybe I can get a team of dozers and cut a massive canyon across I10 at Picacho!
God, the Phoenix mega city is going to be terrible, I mean there's close to what, three million people in that area alone? I'd wager that Tucson would be just as bad, same with Vegas to my North. I'm curious to see what the emigration patterns would look like from those areas. I bet a lot of folks in Phoenix would head North, and Vegas South or Northeast.
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Old January 31, 2018, 19:48   #118
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I do not agree that the situation at waco properly identifies the circumstances being discussed here. That was an entirely different situation from the circumstances being discussed here.



No the community did not come to help, as I stated here:



the reason for that being they were considered deviant criminals, not people rightfully defending thier property from criminals. Therefore no one came to help them.
We would be considered law-abiding people rightfully defending our property from criminals under the circumstances being discussed here. No one would consider ourselves deviant criminals for doing so, therefore they'd have no moral objections or legal considerations to helping each other do so.
Again, a different situation.

Neither would what firearms they had have made a difference or likely helped keep them alive. Unlike the circumstances we are discussing, they faced an opponent with unlimited resources, time, and manpower. They also faced an opponent who carried moral approval amongst the populace, unlike the circumstances we are discussing.
They also faced an opponent for whom that place burning to the ground represented no loss to them, they were not there to engage in violence for the purpose of material gain, ie: raiding. Therefore that church being destroyed did not mean those people lost any gain to be had, unlike the circumstances we are discussing.
Again, a different situation.




Which threat? Federal law enforcement possibly bent on revenge motives or armed raiders?
Again, two different situations.



and that is an entirely different situation from what happened at waco, as I've stated and listed reasons why.



No, you said waco is an example of the failure of trying to defend ones land or farm with firearms, as you specifically stated here:



and I don't agree it is a proper example of what we are discussing here for the reasons I've listed.
Then we don't agree again, I am good with that. See I am setting a higher standard with myself to not argue or even make pointed replys. Life is good now and while threats are out there I see nothing that worries me today. I am glad you have it all figured out. Thanks for the conversation.
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Old January 31, 2018, 21:02   #119
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I suspect, we're speaking of different time frames for the use and abuse of combat medics and what they were and were not expected to be able to do in the field.

My year group was expected, actually it was demanded, we be able to do whatever, whenever to keep our people alive.
A period of near zero restrictions, as in, if you knew how to do it, you did it, if you could do it, you were expected to teach the young ones how to do it.

But this was when medical transport was referred to as Dust offs and the Huey's of the day, could not fly at night or above certain altitudes, with radios that did not work well or at all and help was often days away.

I'm told that times have changed, but not always for the better.
Lawyers and large heads of people in the rear with the gear will do that if allowed.


Less different time frame.
More different services.

The Corps has no "Medic" MOS.
It's medical needs are supplied by the navy.

In the field thus is "Docs" or "Corpsmen"

However (different era): it was determined that MORE at least semi trained hands woukd be needed.

Enter the Combat Aidsman class for Marines.

Trackin?
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Old January 31, 2018, 21:16   #120
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Less different time frame.
More different services.

The Corps has no "Medic" MOS.
It's medical needs are supplied by the navy.

In the field thus is "Docs" or "Corpsmen"

However (different era): it was determined that MORE at least semi trained hands woukd be needed.

Enter the Combat Aidsman class for Marines.

Trackin?
All the Navy "docs" I knew, and sometimes worked with, we had some overlap in missions, were just like us, in that time frame.

So, Marines are now training Marines in first aid, always thought they did that anyway.

Marines in my experience, need a lot of medical care.

SO, Its all good.LOL
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Old January 31, 2018, 21:22   #121
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Basic first aid is taught.

Not IV's etc till 'aidsmen'
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Old January 31, 2018, 21:47   #122
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rural areas would make for great “hunting”, just wait till the goobers pop their heads up & squeeze slowly. the neighbors are far away. the day of the “countryboy” is gone, most modern goobers can’t find their ass in the dark.
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Old January 31, 2018, 22:06   #123
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rural areas would make for great “hunting”, just wait till the goobers pop their heads up & squeeze slowly. the neighbors are far away. the day of the “countryboy” is gone, most modern goobers can’t find their ass in the dark.
Yep!
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Old February 01, 2018, 11:10   #124
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God, the Phoenix mega city is going to be terrible, I mean there's close to what, three million people in that area alone? I'd wager that Tucson would be just as bad, same with Vegas to my North. I'm curious to see what the emigration patterns would look like from those areas. I bet a lot of folks in Phoenix would head North, and Vegas South or Northeast.
SouthWest there is no water. Everyone from the cities will be dead from lack of water inside a week.

Right?
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Old February 01, 2018, 11:28   #125
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SouthWest there is no water. Everyone from the cities will be dead from lack of water inside a week.

Right?
No, plenty of water wells here, even springs and such, Phoenix has a water reserve, a big ass pond thingy up there.

Suspect, half the folks will head somewhere, concerned about water, excessive heat without power, there is a good reason not many folks lived out this way before air-conditioning, its hot, like damn hot at times.

Give it six months, say after an EMP, real estate in the valley of sun will be damn cheap.

People can live out here without electricity, just not that many, as many as here now.

I have a "river" about three miles from the house, its about 6 feet wide most days, and 12 inches deep, LOL and even runs north, also tons of natural springs etc.
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Old February 01, 2018, 13:06   #126
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Read Lucifer's Hammer. There in lays defense for the hordes. Over a beer, we can discuss snipers and heavy stuff. We are not in the sand box yet.
Great book. I think it's one of the most realistic ones out there.

They used mustard gas against the cannibals and lived in a valley they could control access to.

Pretty good setup.
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Old February 01, 2018, 13:47   #127
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Interesting that there is a common thought regarding " invaders " from other areas.

I would suggest that taking care of, or taking care of those local to you may be more critical.




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Old February 01, 2018, 14:09   #128
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...I would suggest that taking care of, or taking care of those local to you may be more critical...
Your plight?



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Old February 01, 2018, 14:35   #129
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Your plight?



NutttZZZZ !

You look so slim !





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Old February 01, 2018, 14:39   #130
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NutttZZZZ !...You look so slim !......
It's the skinny jeans T! Now stop staring at my junk and tell me and all my hipster invading buddies where the gluten free tacos are damnit! We are famished!
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Old February 01, 2018, 15:19   #131
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It's the skinny jeans T! Now stop staring at my junk and tell me and all my hipster invading buddies where the gluten free tacos are damnit! We are famished!
I was staring at your man purse satchel.

You said you always packed extra tofu in there......or maybe that was in that luxurious soft beard....



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Old February 01, 2018, 15:29   #132
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Nice!!!! "Most" dudes in my local actually know how to use an axe Brother. Hipsters won't be needing the "taking care of" here (we do have a few lurking in NVA) like you good folk there. Here we are more worried about all the "fooking prawns" that will flow out of Richmond, DC, Baltimore, etc...
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Old February 01, 2018, 15:37   #133
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It's the skinny jeans
They're a good look for you bro. I like your new hair-doo as well !!!
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Old February 01, 2018, 15:46   #134
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They're a good look for you bro. I like your new hair-doo as well !!!


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Old February 01, 2018, 16:08   #135
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That was last SUMMER. Now it is WINTER.

My beard looks more ZZ Top/Duck Dynasty-ish now
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Old February 01, 2018, 16:26   #136
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SouthWest there is no water. Everyone from the cities will be dead from lack of water inside a week.

Right?
Not entirely true, there's several towns right on the Colorado. No clue about Phoenix, but the towns with water or access to water here will have to worry about the high heat levels, and lack of food. Naturally there aren't enough resources to sustain such population levels, but as YellowHand put it, people can live out here.
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Old February 01, 2018, 18:25   #137
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Hi, I am the stupidest poster ever to post on the Files and I wear the badge with honor

Do you have 15 friends you trust when and if it all went to hell? Do you know people well enough that you can pick people to side with? Just because they wore the uniform in the past does it mean they won't kill you and your family?

We have some sharp people that post here and Huey is probably the most technically perfect poster here. Well learned and a host of knowledge in book form of posting Please enjoy the discussions and bring your opinions, worst they can say is you will be the stupidest poster ever to post on the files. No really just funning. Glad to see another oregon person here.
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Old February 01, 2018, 19:33   #138
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There is a sickness around these parts at times.

Not a judgement, just a simple observation.
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Old February 02, 2018, 08:45   #139
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the katrina mess showed one must be adaptable. its not so much having pallets of gear laying around but the ability to adjust. shtf means something different to everyone, i know a lot of geezers who can barely walk , the weakest of the weak, going to leave them to die in place? children? or just write their ass off?
i am moving back to a more urban area & need to get my mind right, can’t walk around urban areas with an fal, tavor a better choice, go grayman, must adjust.
Most of the dangerous urban types stayed and spent time looting. When teams came to open roads and bridges they would shoot at them to try and keep their hoods isolated from police and rescue getting in. FEMA actually had to employ contract sniper teams to protect work sites that came under fire. Most of the folks that are ultra dangerous predators in the city will not leave their concrete environment. Will not realize resources from looting will eventually run out so will stay in place till too late to get out.
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Old February 04, 2018, 00:23   #140
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Post EMP, how far can people on foot travel per day and how many days of supplies can they carry? The farther one is from a major population center the fewer the people that will make it that far.

Post EMP, how far can those with heavy weapons travel without resupply? Considering that fuel will be in short supply outside of a base and there would likely be no resupply, how far can armored vehicles travel without fuel trucks? Fuel would be worth more than gold, how much would a group be willing to risk inside a vulnerable truck? Considering that no spare parts will be available, how likely will a group be willing to risk a breakdown of a vehicle far from the base?

So distance from major population centers and military bases would reduce head on encounters with large groups of people and marauders with heavy weapons. Rural areas would then be safer if they were a significant distance away, not just because they were rural areas, rural areas a few miles from cities or bases would not be safer.

Distance would be safer, and not just horizontal but also vertical. Mountainous terrain would increase the difficulty of travel for those on foot with limited supplies, and those with heavy weapons with limited fuel and supplies. Mountainous wooded terrain would also increase the defensive options against massive numbers and heavy weapons.
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Old February 04, 2018, 01:26   #141
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Post EMP, how far can people on foot travel per day and how many days of supplies can they carry? The farther one is from a major population center the fewer the people that will make it that far.

Post EMP, how far can those with heavy weapons travel without resupply? Considering that fuel will be in short supply outside of a base and there would likely be no resupply, how far can armored vehicles travel without fuel trucks? Fuel would be worth more than gold, how much would a group be willing to risk inside a vulnerable truck? Considering that no spare parts will be available, how likely will a group be willing to risk a breakdown of a vehicle far from the base?

So distance from major population centers and military bases would reduce head on encounters with large groups of people and marauders with heavy weapons. Rural areas would then be safer if they were a significant distance away, not just because they were rural areas, rural areas a few miles from cities or bases would not be safer.



Distance would be safer, and not just horizontal but also vertical. Mountainous terrain would increase the difficulty of travel for those on foot with limited supplies, and those with heavy weapons with limited fuel and supplies. Mountainous wooded terrain would also increase the defensive options against massive numbers and heavy weapons.

Trained and conditioned folks can move on foot say 25 miles per day, and carry what they need, minus water, for say a week.

Un trained and badly conditioned people, say most of this country, are simply afraid of the dark and once the lights go out, most will die roughly in place????

I go to Tucson once a week, exactly 88 miles one way from the house by road.

I've told my wife, not to expect or look for me in event of an EMP event for at least 8 days, most likely ten days to give me time to cover that distance on foot.

I have water for a couple of days in my Jeep, and food for about 6, which I can stretch to 8, maybe a day more.

I ain't as young as I used to be, panic and chaos will be the order of the day, I've got to get out of a huge ass city, and then cross a high desert.

It would be a damn good weight loss program though.
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Old February 04, 2018, 01:29   #142
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And there is zero truth to the rumor, that I would look to steal a horse and make the trip in three days on horseback.
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Old February 04, 2018, 10:57   #143
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And there is zero truth to the rumor, that I would look to steal a horse and make the trip in three days on horseback.
What about a llama that was fed with grass organically grown on the Andes by a Women-only far and only drank organically grown water from a stream in Madagascar?
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Old February 04, 2018, 14:41   #144
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What about a llama that was fed with grass organically grown on the Andes by a Women-only far and only drank organically grown water from a stream in Madagascar?
Not that I gave that a ton of thought prior to this, but it could be a possibility given the circumstances of the given day.
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Old February 05, 2018, 00:30   #145
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My point was not that gangs would acquire armored vehicles, but that those already using armored vehicles would become gangs.

If you don't normally talk to those who have been kicking in doors and 'pacifying' people in far off places, well, you might consider doing so. Many have 'plans' for the scenarios being discussed here...
Forrest
We have a local Army National Guard unit and a Marine Reserve. Army is an ordinance group and Marines are mechanized and have a few tanks. If were to band together then with local sheriff, police and SWAT believe they would look at situation very rationally as have 30 days food and fuel then think about best way to protect their families.

Best way to protect community would be drop bridges. Look at map, we are a lake community and if the interstate bridges east of town were dropped along with those traversing rivers and all the lake areas we would become isolated quickly. Look at top center of map
Will see a peninsula that is almost totally surrounded by water and virtually unreachable without bridge or boat. Our bridges will not survive.



This is the finger of that peninsula I live on. Know people all around that by blocking or destroying have plans to make all the bridges around them useless. Imagine a man with a mid to large size track hoe digging into bridges surrounding his home and people for three counties following suit. We become a series of islands with plentiful game, fish and water plus no hoards invade unless trained in amphibious assaults. Think I did not thinky very carefully when purchased my home? Was just as careful in choosing design, construction materials, basement and 25 years of remodeling/hardening.



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I were a EMT and combat aidsman (rode a bus, and patched up after IED'S.) And the FD is working on dates for an EMT class for me to get that back. (What I WANT is Wilderness EMT.)

+ one of my buddies is a former combat medic.
Do not know nomenclature for different certifications these days but in my day it was EMT (check), Wilderness First Responder (check), and due to time I spent climbing in high mountains around the world, NCRC Level 1 Vertical Rescue (check) and Mountain Rescue (check). Have two doctors with high altitude mountaineering experience less than four miles from me and a recently retired Army Ranger combat medic. Wife was in the dental trade.

Our island will become disconnected from surrounding land soon and there is a reason I have two marine radar units at house, one land unit, one ground to air, weather radar, weather fax, marine radio, all band/all mode ham radio, public service radio and European systems that easily hack into bands of interest like military low band VHF. Army MARS trained and we can stay situationally aware, isolated from anyone without a boat or neighbors, live in very hardened position with perimeter systems most don't know exist much less how to bypass. We may die within five minutes of event horizon or may be some groups first target of choice. Either way we have tried and will most likely put up a good fight with neighbors and friends.

Have enough fishing equipment to last three lifetimes. Even have commercial fishing nets with my game traps and equipment to make hunting autonomous or much easier than legal if emergency need for food is imperative. We have 20 to 40 pound stripers running in site of house as see the striper fisherman out often. Go out with nets or explosives instead of rods and reels will load some fish. No plan is perfect and few men can be fully trusted. My plan is to make myself so handy many will want to be friendly and if it looks like the Ponderosa is lost have a system in place that guarantees the attackers get nothing but dead and hurt followed by entire place burning to ground as can turn off all our automated fire systems if choose. Cooperate or get nothing. Hope 30 years of networking in community pays off.
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Old February 05, 2018, 01:11   #146
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The city dwellers first wait for help and pray it will get better. When the food runs out and the store shelves are empty then they wander out to fight for scraps among the other hungry hordes.

Then the gangs and various groups begin to steal and kill as law and order breakdown. The unarmed law-abiding are just grist for the mill. They are robbed and killed and the females taken for sport or worse. Then they fight among themselves.

Eventually those who are left (but weakened) may migrate out toward the suburbs and country side. It could be a long gauntlet of death and destruction with little if any food and clean water.

Those who make it out to the country side are by now weakened and not in very good shape to fight. Most will just give up. Those who don't will travel on and may fight those on the edges of the cities and in the country side for what they can find or take.

Those who survive that will try to penetrate small towns that are likely to have barricaded the towns and outlying communities and set up choke points along travel routes to deal with outsiders. These folk will more likely be well armed and have some supplies and may be growing their own food.

If they bypass the towns and go beyond to the edges of ranch lands and remote rural areas they will be in very sorry shape and be easy pickins' for the well armed remote rural dwellers who will likely band up with other remote rural folk and ranchers.

Depending on the time of year the remote rural dwellers ... many who are prepped and well stocked will wait it out and in the winters months the outsiders will probably perish ... (think Aesop's fable "Ant and Grasshopper").

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Old February 05, 2018, 01:35   #147
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The city dwellers first wait for help and pray it will get better. When the food runs out and the store shelves are empty then they wander out to fight for scraps among the other hungry hordes.

Then the gangs and various groups begin to steal and kill as law and order breakdown. The unarmed law-abiding are just grist for the mill. They are robbed and killed and the females taken for sport or worse. Then they fight among themselves.

Eventually those who are left (but weakened) may migrate out toward the suburbs and country side. It could be a long gauntlet of death and destruction with little if any food and clean water.

Those who make it out to the country side are by now weakened and not in very good shape to fight. Most will just give up. Those who don't will travel on and may fight those on the edges of the cities and in the country side for what they can find or take.

Those who survive that will try to penetrate small towns that are likely to have barricaded the towns and outlying communities and set up choke points along travel routes to deal with outsiders. These folk will more likely be well armed and have some supplies and may be growing their own food.

If they bypass the towns and go beyond to the edges of ranch lands and remote rural areas they will be in very sorry shape and be easy pickins' for the well armed remote rural dwellers who will likely band up with other remote rural folk and ranchers.

Depending on the time of year the remote rural dwellers ... many who are prepped and well stocked will wait it out and in the winters months the outsiders will probably perish ... (think Aesop's fable "Ant and Grasshopper").

And many people will be shocked at how fast all of this can take place.
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Old February 05, 2018, 05:38   #148
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Last week was in post office at lunch time when only two tellers working. There were about twenty people in front of me waiting their turn and 20ish female trying to mail an item purchased back to seller for a refund at one teller. She did not have item boxed or addressed, was arguing with employee over who's responsibility it was to properly package items for mailing. She was sure all she had to do was drop item at window with address of vendor on piece of paper. They told her it had to be boxed, sealed, addressed and forms for international tracking filled out before returned to window. She asked for box which they explained she could buy at supply kiosk, package and get back in line. She did not want to pay for box and continued arguing.

She made phone call and another 20ish female came in with ripped to shreds box which was apparently box it came in as she put item in and handed to clerk. Entire time people were freaking out as were trying to run to post office on lunch break and get back to work, many buying USPS Money Orders and the one teller working moving slowly then a Hispanic hit that window that didn't speak Engrish and it ground to halt. Hispanic had black plastic garbage bag of clothing wanted to mail to Mexico and now that clerk was trying to explain to nine year old kid translating that would not make it to Mexico intact unless properly boxed, garbage bag would not make it through international mail intact.

Post master came out to intercede with females about unbound item and international shipping telling them needed to leave the line and return when item packaged and addressed properly. They showed her it was now in box with address. Post master told females as addressed item would come back to them as was addressed in manner that it was coming to them and Asia address was return address and still needed taped shut. They pointed at the priority tape and said to use it and were told if shipped priority price would go up.

Now the kicker, girl says she doesn't want to pay for shipping, wanted to mail it international "postage due" as wasn't her fault it did not work and seller should pay shipping. By then Mexican had clued up, left the post office and I finally got through line to ship my three items and as left the two females were still arguing with post master as she was telling them had tied up line way too long and not to come back till item properly packaged and addressed. Went to my box, got mail, found two locker keys in my box for packages received so got my boxes from two lockers and was loading mail and packages in truck when the two girls came out upset about how mail clerks refused to do their job.

They were torqued and one said to the other she was going to let her "advisor" handle it. Looked up to see them getting in car with parking sticker for local college with sorority sticker one rear windshield. Do all I can to not drive through that campus (post office and two clients in area) as students walk out into traffic from between cars and drive out into street from parking lots without stopping and looking for traffic. How will thesend girls handle an emergency? Will either die or become some perverts play toy till he breaks them or they die because he won't waste food feeding them.

Saturday had three emergency jobs come in and one even put me just a couple miles from a Files member stopped and said hello. Was near a major outlet mall and cars were ignoring signals, cops were working multiple wrecks and it was generally a blue sky day mess on the roads. People as get away from their homes and trying to visit shopping venues outside of normal travels can't work basic traffic signals.

From my personal observations if we had a major event, which one of the first things that will happen is government will shut off Global Positioning System, average person can't find there way home much less out of city without their active mapping system. When Google Earth and on board GPS in cars stops working due to GPS shut down which happened following 9/11 and will happen during any attack scenario to civilian use people won't be able to get out of own neighborhood. My concern of "hoards" escaping from city in "droves" is very low as don't think average city dweller can accomplish getting kids to come home because text messaging quits on phones, vehicles loaded, find fuel, navigate gridlock without GPS or protect themselves from predatory gangs with guns long enough to get out of town. Average person under 35 is incapable of functioning without smart phones which will go down fast in an attack or national sized emergency situation.

The rural folk may have a moderate size wave of panicking people initially that will be easily dealt with if your prepared. My biggest fear is being caught in city myself when event is initiated. Then is when always having armor and truck rifle along with bug home pack and 4×4 truck with full tank of gas plus paper maps will be only chance of escaping to home. I would put my odds of getting home without major effort as low if inside perimeter of Atlanta when a national emergency begins. For those without all wheel drive, ham radio, armor, armored vehicle and rifle along with handgun to fight with odds will be nearly impossible. Why my truck is always stocked with "bug home" supplies.
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Old February 05, 2018, 10:59   #149
Chester Nimitz
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You probably are better off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW-J9YruosA
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Old February 05, 2018, 11:20   #150
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Look at what can happen when something good happens to a big city....all this over a superbowl win....what's going to happen when the EBTs quit working??

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/0...uper-bowl.html
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