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Old July 01, 2019, 12:00   #51
7.92 Dreamin
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Originally Posted by fal308762 View Post
for sure you have a nice rifle, if you live in CA the rifle you show is it CA legal whatever that even means.
Not as pictured, CA DOJ would throw a fit. For pictures sake i took them without all the goofy legality stuff.

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My goodness you're stupid! I made a foolish mistake, I corrected it and apologized to you for it.
...
Did you read the minutes of the 1921-1924 Ordnance Board meetings on flash hider competing designs?
Do the courtesy of posting your source like i did mine, 1920's ordinance papers aren't exactly floating around where they're easily found.

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You doubled down on your idiotic comments. Cutting and pasting esoteric pretentious blather is not an argument. It remains, your assertions that 1950s weapon designers were stupid and didn't know what they were doing, is completely unfounded bullshit.
Never said they were stupid. But they absolutely didn't know what they were doing. Because the guys 15 years later just starting to do some of the necessary testing to really understand what was going on. Like i said:
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Originally Posted by 7.92 Dreamin
You gonna start arguing for the viability of the blish lock too? They worked with the knowledge that they had. Can't fault them but things improve over time for a reason.
And your assertion that i'm talking the difference of something like 95% flash reduction and 99% flash reduction just isn't true. 1966 testing showed that cone type flash suppressors, while better than bare muzzle, work fairly poorly to reduce incidence of muzzle flash. Talking something like 30% reduction in flash incidence vs 99% with more cutting edge designs. Yet you'll find plenty of examples of cone types being issued on rifles like the M1 and M2 in the previous decade. They just didnt know.

I've never said weapons designers were stupid. I've always said that their understanding of flash suppression wasn't complete, and they're attempts to address it were inadequate and usually done through trial and error rather than actual design.

Last edited by 7.92 Dreamin; July 02, 2019 at 02:32.
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Old July 08, 2019, 21:49   #52
J. Armstrong
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Okay, just got two of the muzzle devices in from Northridge. My observations:
Mine are both entirely aluminum except for the retainer spring and the insert. The insert appears very much like a spring steel collar apparently press fitted into the device. I haven't done a direct comparison yet, but they are about the length of the standard "long" FH, definitely longer than the combo device. The o.D. of the device is the same as a combo device. The devices do in fact lock in place via rotating the barrel lug behind a raised internal machined collar, the spring is, in my estimation, simply to provide friction to prevent the device from rotating out of engagement with the lug.
When assembled, the muzzle is only recessed approximately one inch from the forward end of the device, and has a bit of fore and aft play, perhaps 1/32" or less between the muzzle and the aft end of the steel insert and the lug/collar aft. The forward insert is not a true cylinder in that its forward end has two "lobes" or raised, rounded projections. ( Keep in mind this insert is entirely enclosed by the body of the device; it ends with the front of the lobes recessed about 1/2" from the forward end of the device.

With the above in mind, I am quite certain the device will have virtually no flash suppressive capabilities. However, being that the outside diameter is the same as the combo device indicates to me that this is likely a grenade launching accessory. In additin there is a small bump on the outside circumference of the catch spring that serves as a stop to prevent the grenade from going on too far, although I do note that the genade telescopes a bit further on this device than it does on a combo device.

Israeli practice grenades fit just about perfectly. Based on the above, I'm thinking the mystery device is in fact a grenade launcher attachment. Any thoughts ?
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Last edited by J. Armstrong; July 08, 2019 at 21:55.
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Old July 08, 2019, 22:26   #53
jeffrey
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Pappy sez: Stupid is as stupid does.

Stupid?
The ArrogantBastardAsshole just bought a box of lousy flash hiders that don't work, and now he has a box of rare Hebrew grenade launchers that are prolly worth $200 or $300 hundred apiece.

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Old July 09, 2019, 08:07   #54
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Israeli practice grenades fit just about perfectly. Based on the above, I'm thinking the mystery device is in fact a grenade launcher attachment. Any thoughts ?
FN already had a grenade launcher, as did Israel. It incorporates a sight. If this is a grenade launching adapter, the sight would be a separate unit. So I don't think so. Also that tiny bump seems insufficient to prevent a rocket grenade from falling off. But it does suggest something goes on the outside.
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Old July 09, 2019, 09:00   #55
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FN already had a grenade launcher, as did Israel. It incorporates a sight. If this is a grenade launching adapter, the sight would be a separate unit. So I don't think so. Also that tiny bump seems insufficient to prevent a rocket grenade from falling off. But it does suggest something goes on the outside.
I agree the "bump" doesn't retain the grenade. I didn't try forcing the grenade down over the bump, as this didn't seem likely as standard procedure - it wouldn't be consistent . I'm wondering if the shape of the insert is supposed to mesh with or index whatever goes on the device.

Knowing that there were already grenade launchers available, my thought was that maybe these were inexpensive light duty units, possibly for training use, but I'm not sure that makes sense either.
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Old July 12, 2019, 10:40   #56
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Thanks. I wish i took more pics before, there was a lot of gouging/deep scratches and a completely flat spot on the radius of the cheekweld that i built up. Experimented with some epoxy/charcoal/sawdust mix to use as a filler and im happy with the results, i mostly just wanted a smooth surface that wouldn't get dirt or become further damaged.



Some quick and dirty pics:






Looks and feels like aluminum, but it has a steel insert where the muzzle meets the FH on the inside. Very light internal taper going out the full inch or so from the muzzle. Cutouts for the lug to rotate into after it pushes the spring out of the way.


I was wondering if someone sharp eyed would notice that lol. No i just had it off because I hadn't drilled the gas port yet-- drill bit came in today and those last two pieces went on.
Nice looking rifle. So. you are calling this a flash hider? Unique to me and from what i seen before.
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Old July 12, 2019, 19:12   #57
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I'd previously discounted it as an adapter for rifle grenades because where are the sights?

This is what we normally think of for FAL grenade launchers. (BT/AT-52)




Then I saw this Belgian practice grenade



and this MECAR blast and fragmentation BTU rifle grenade, HE-RFL-35 BTU M262 series



and this



All with the sights on the grenade.

Maybe fits BT/AT-44 Dual Purpose or an L74A1?

But the tubes are 21.8mm and it's barely 22 at the nub.
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Old July 12, 2019, 19:39   #58
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and this



All with the sights on the grenade.

Maybe fits BT/AT-44 Dual Purpose or an L74A1?

But the tubes are 21.8mm and it's barely 22 at the nub.
AFAIK, that is how Brazil used rifle grenades in FALs: the sight was attached to the grenade and would fall out when fired.
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Old July 12, 2019, 20:12   #59
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As I mentioned, my Izzy practice grenades fit very well - if anything a wee bit snug. As Mark noted, there is no apparent way to actually secure the grenadebut I guess if you don't tilt the barrel down, that's not a problem
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Old July 12, 2019, 22:58   #60
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A Complete Israeli GL has a sleeve insert.

Although Israeli, and Belgium, Grenade launcher assemblies have more sophisticated locking mechanisms, I do recall the Israeli pattern GL has a sleeve similar to the look of this tube. At least on the bottom edge.

Perhaps these so-called flash suppressors are a sub assembly for something more elaborate that was never completed and scrapped.
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Old July 13, 2019, 08:51   #61
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My friend Bruce in France (author of a FAL book like Kevin and Chuck are here.) says they are a training device for ENERGA rifle grenades. He's traveling now but thinks he has a brochure covering it.

The training grenade for the ENERGA AT was the AT GR PRAC 75 mm

I recall from the Israeli training / practice set that there were multiple tubes of similar style that went into the body of the rubber-headed dummy grenade.
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Old July 13, 2019, 09:08   #62
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Do I win the pony ?
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"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools" Herbert Spenser

“I respect the government only in the sense that I respect any other dangerous predator who views me as food.”

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.” Robert E. Lee
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Old July 13, 2019, 14:33   #63
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Do I win the pony ?
You won!!!! Step over to the left window over there and they will take care of you.
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