I may never resize or trim another .308 case

[ammolab]

Originally Posted by boman

Most likely M118LR pulldown. Same brass as m80 but w/o primer crimp.

Steve

I thought that at first, but 2018 production would have “LR” on the headstamp.

[W.E.G.]

Originally Posted by Sig220

WEG, have you checked the neck size/tension yet? Other then that, looks like you got some good brass!

I need to take some measurements.

[meltblown]

Originally Posted by Sig220

Sounds like you got some well used brass!

The last LC brass I got was picked up off the range after the USCG guys shot it through their Mag58's or whatever they are called now. Still have quite a bit I have not even resized yet. The ones I have resized and shot are holding up well after at least 2 more firings.

Yep, probably MG brass. But it didn't act like this before and it's on a new build. I don't care about picking it up anymore after 1 reload off an FAL. It's all the same HS. Seems commercial brass isn't quite as brittle

[W.E.G.]

O.D. is about 0.340"

I.D. is about 0.298"

Thickness of brass at neck is about 0.015"

I grabbed a half dozen cases to measure. I notice one of them has the case mouth slightly rolled - surely due to contact with the pulling-collet when the ammo was disassembled.

Some pieces will need to be culled. Others may need some work on the neck if it turns out there are enough to even bother. I'll load all the pieces that don't need adjustments first.

So far, I'm pretty satisfied with the brass. Not 100% turnkey like the Wolf primed brass - but still mostly good to go.

[W.E.G.]

and lastly - headspace dimension

Base-to-shoulder runs 1.630 - 1.632 on small sample measured.

Tool used was RCBS precision mic calibrated with Forster 1.630 headspace gage

[Mebsuta]

Hey! There's still a little of the old spherical in there, so load cylindrical and get a custom double-atomic duplex.

[boman]

Originally Posted by ammolab

I thought that at first, but 2018 production would have “LR” on the headstamp.

yea, you are correct. I was thinking of the m118 special ball that used to be available. I looked closer at the pictures and I'm pretty sure this is just standard m80 pulldown. those primers look like they have a standard LC military crimp(one is even off center a bit) and Gary says there is sealant in the neck. anyways good brass even with culls at that price.

Steve

[V guy]

Reloading manuals have great references regarding how to inspect and load ammo.

Brass resizing and hs info is best found here for .308.
Many, many threads and posts regarding hs, chs, brass, etc etc; spend a day reading.

I would avoid Wiki for reloading advice, but if that is all you got.........

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by V guy

Reloading manuals have great references regarding how to inspect and load ammo.

Brass resizing and hs info is best found here for .308.
Many, many threads and posts regarding hs, chs, brass, etc etc; spend a day reading.

I would avoid Wiki for reloading advice, but if that is all you got.........

I didn't know that.

Probably no one else commenting here does either.

Maybe I'll pick up a reloading manual...

Forrest

[V guy]

Not directed at you, just the post #45, about using WIKI for ammo reference, instead of Speer, Hornady, etc, etc, or this forums extensive information.

Amateurs and newbies do not know about the last 70 years of reloading history.

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by V guy

Not directed at you, just the post #45, about using WIKI for ammo reference, instead of Speer, Hornady, etc, etc, or this forums extensive information.

Amateurs and newbies do not know about the last 70 years of reloading history.

Well, there is that...

Perhaps I overreacted...

Sorry...

Forrest

[W.E.G.]

Crimp is very light.

But primer IS crimped.

[jjjxlr8]

I received my order today and it looks really good. Certainly annealed cases. Some cases have some very minor tarnishing and some ball powder stuck to the neck sealant residue, but overall seems like a great deal. Hopefully the bullets will seat tight enough without neck sizing but we'll see. I might use some bullets with cannelures so I can use a crimp.

[W.E.G.]

I'll say this about crimping bottleneck rifle brass.

DON'T DO IT.

Size the necks down if you have to, but don't crimp bottleck rifle brass.

And yes, I know about the collet crimpers, and "just giving it a kiss."

Look if all it needs is a kiss, you don't need to crimp it. Now if you are one of those guys who is such an amazing hard-holder who can see a one-eighth-minute improvement in accuracy because you have "perfect neck tension," then pay no attention to any of what I've said.

Otherwise, DO NOT CRIMP bottleneck rifle brass.

Here's how I know whether I've got enough neck tension:
I seat a bullet on a powder charge, then I walk over to my gun safe. I press the nose of the loaded round against my gun safe. If the bullet doesn't move in the case when moderate pressure is applied against the gun safe, you have plenty of neck tension to run in any gun. Again, if you are the Regional Deadlift Champion, and you can push ten-penny nails through 3/4" plywood with your pinky-finger, maybe YOUR idea of "moderate" pressure is different than my idea of moderate pressure. I'm a middle-aged guy with arthritis, but still enough strength to hump my rifle gear across-the-course and change my own brake rotors. Use that as your rough standard.

Don't crimp that case. You'll just buckle the mouth or the shoulder, and then you WILL have problems.

[tdb59]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

....... Again, if you are the Regional Deadlift Champion, and you can push ten-penny nails through 3/4" plywood with your pinky-finger, maybe YOUR idea of "moderate" pressure is different than my idea of moderate pressure.......

https://youtu.be/pRtLEhV1nho

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

I'll say this about crimping bottleneck rifle brass.

DON'T DO IT.

Size the necks down if you have to, but don't crimp bottleck rifle brass.

And yes, I know about the collet crimpers, and "just giving it a kiss."

Look if all it needs is a kiss, you don't need to crimp it. Now if you are one of those guys who is such an amazing hard-holder who can see a one-eighth-minute improvement in accuracy because you have "perfect neck tension," then pay no attention to any of what I've said.

Otherwise, DO NOT CRIMP bottleneck rifle brass.

Here's how I know whether I've got enough neck tension:
I seat a bullet on a powder charge, then I walk over to my gun safe. I press the nose of the loaded round against my gun safe. If the bullet doesn't move in the case when moderate pressure is applied against the gun safe, you have plenty of neck tension to run in any gun. Again, if you are the Regional Deadlift Champion, and you can push ten-penny nails through 3/4" plywood with your pinky-finger, maybe YOUR idea of "moderate" pressure is different than my idea of moderate pressure. I'm a middle-aged guy with arthritis, but still enough strength to hump my rifle gear across-the-course and change my own brake rotors. Use that as your rough standard.

Don't crimp that case. You'll just buckle the mouth or the shoulder, and then you WILL have problems.

Damn...

Now you tell me after crimping tens of thousands of rounds, 5.56x45mm, 7.62x51mm, .30 CAL M1, .30-30 Win, among others, all with absolutely no problems...

I'm not sure what problems you're having, Gary.

Forrest

[W.E.G.]

Originally Posted by ftierson

Damn...

Now you tell me after crimping tens of thousands of rounds, 5.56x45mm, 7.62x51mm, .30 CAL M1, .30-30 Win, among others, all with absolutely no problems...

I'm not sure what problems you're having, Gary.

Forrest

I'm not saying it CAN'T be done.

I'm saying its 100% non-necessary for AR-15, FAL, M1A, Garand, and very likely a liability.

I can see some necessity for something like a Model 94. But even then, if you have decent neck tension, you still don't need to crimp. And you have plenty of leverage at your disposal if you have to force a round into - or out of - the chamber.

If you truly know what you're doing, and you are truly willing to do the job right, you likely won't get in trouble crimping bottleneck rounds. I've seen plenty that were squashed. Fugk all that. If it doesn't NEED it, why is anybody doing it?

[boman]

completely agree about "no crimp necessary". In all the years I've been reloading I don't recall ever crimping any round, be it pistol or rifle. correct neck tension is adequate. Same with small base dies just haven't found them necessary.
I've shot no crimp reloads in semi-autos and full autos with no problems. In fact the only problem I ever recall with any reloads is my m-60 pulling the case heads off some crappy brass. It was a pain in the ass, next round would jam the gun---



Steve

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

I'm not saying it CAN'T be done.

I'm saying its 100% non-necessary for AR-15, FAL, M1A, Garand, and very likely a liability.

I can see some necessity for something like a Model 94. But even then, if you have decent neck tension, you still don't need to crimp. And you have plenty of leverage at your disposal if you have to force a round into - or out of - the chamber.

If you truly know what you're doing, and you are truly willing to do the job right, you likely won't get in trouble crimping bottleneck rounds. I've seen plenty that were squashed. Fugk all that. If it doesn't NEED it, why is anybody doing it?

I guess that we disagree about the necessity of crimping bullets in semi-auto ammo. I've seen OP bullets get pushed back into the case in non-crimped ammo (even with a good neck tension) in 5.56mm AR rifles. I don't like that...

Something like this is almost never seen because, generally, you shoot a chambered round. Not seeing a pushed-back-into-the-neck bullet in such a case is simply because the bullet is in the target/berm downrange. You'd only notice it if the round failed to chamber and you ejected the unfired round.

I use Lee Factory Crimp Dies for all semi-auto rifle ammo that Lee makes the collet crimp dies for (I've never seen a 7.5x54mm French one, for example). With the collet die, I can't see how you could even buckle the neck/shoulder like is possible/likely using the bullet seating die to also crimp. Of the cartridges mentioned, the .30-30 WCF Lee Collet crimp die is the most important because the neck is so long and the brass there so thin that you're almost guaranteed to buckle the neck when using non-collet crimping dies. You never will with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, and I think that a crimp is necessary for the .30-30 Win. (since I shoot it in M94 Winchesters and 336 Marlins).

I just finished up another 2500 rounds of 5.56x45mm M193 using PPU M193 bullets (which have the M193 cannelure, of course). All the crimps are perfect. And, with the Lee Factory Crimp Die (for bottleneck rifle cases, at least) the collet will work perfectly even if the cases vary somewhat in length (for me, that wouldn't be a problem anyway since I trim the cases every time).

The only case that would be worse than the .30-30 WCF that way would probably be the .22 Hornet, where even simply seating the bullet can push back the thin, fragile neck. Then again, I have no .22 Hornet guns, even bolt guns.

For the 5.7x28mm FN round, the bullet is not crimped in the short neck of the bottle-necked case, but is glued in place to prevent bullet pushback...

Obviously, that's my experience and yours obviously varies...

Forrest

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by boman

completely agree about "no crimp necessary". In all the years I've been reloading I don't recall ever crimping any round, be it pistol or rifle. correct neck tension is adequate. Same with small base dies just haven't found them necessary.
I've shot no crimp reloads in semi-autos and full autos with no problems. In fact the only problem I ever recall with any reloads is my m-60 pulling the case heads off some crappy brass. It was a pain in the ass, next round would jam the gun---

Obviously, my feelings about crimping bullets for semi-auto rifles differs from yours...

However, I agree 100% about no need for small base resizing dies...

Forrest

[W.E.G.]

If a guy is so meticulous that he is trimming his cases on each firing, he doesn't need any advice from me.

Its a good idea to check your handloads if used in a semi-auto. Check them to see if normal cycling is pushing the bullet back. I have checked it. The bullet is not being pushed back on my non-crimped loads during normal cycling. It may help too that I'm using a single stage press. I feel the tension as the bullet is seated on every round. Anything that feels weird gets looked at.

If you are loading antique/obsolete cartridges, you'll learn what you gotta do to not mess it up.

[boman]

Originally Posted by ftierson

Obviously, my feelings about crimping bullets for semi-auto rifles differs from yours...

However, I agree 100% about no need for small base resizing dies...

Forrest

No harm---no foul

Hey Gary,jjxlr8, FWIW a big box of q-tips, a good tv program and some MEK is just the ticket for cleaning that sealant out of the necks.

Steve

[W.E.G.]

I'll probably just let the sealant ride unless it causes something weird during seating.

I might run a batch through the tumbler with some fresh media to remove the powder from the necks - at least see what happens.

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

If a guy is so meticulous that he is trimming his cases on each firing, he doesn't need any advice from me.

Its a good idea to check your handloads if used in a semi-auto. Check them to see if normal cycling is pushing the bullet back. I have checked it. The bullet is not being pushed back on my non-crimped loads during normal cycling. It may help too that I'm using a single stage press. I feel the tension as the bullet is seated on every round. Anything that feels weird gets looked at.

If you are loading antique/obsolete cartridges, you'll learn what you gotta do to not mess it up.

Is 'meticulous' a polite way of saying 'anally retentive?' If so, thanks for the kindness...

I like to deal with cases the same length and, since I use a Giraud case trimmer, trimming is really effortless. If nothing needs to come off, nothing will come off. If it does, well, it does...

I also do all my loading on a single stage press, so weirdness does get felt.

I'm not saying that, if someone gave me several boxes of reloaded ammo without the bullet being crimped, I wouldn't shoot them because of that alone. I wouldn't shoot them because someone else loaded them...

Will I shoot factory ammo without a crimp in my guns? Certainly...

Do I load some ammunition for bolt guns without a crimp? Certainly, even usually...

Forrest

[W.E.G.]

For semi-auto, I trim after first firing.

Shoot it two more times, and recycle.

I've had too many malfunctions/failures with cases on 4x+ firing. Brass aint that expensive. My time gets more expensive with each passing second.

Eat 90 points on a match aggregate on account of a case failure, and just spend another day in the sun?

[boman]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

I'll probably just let the sealant ride unless it causes something weird during seating.

I might run a batch through the tumbler with some fresh media to remove the powder from the necks - at least see what happens.

Let us know how it works out. I tried a batch in my vibrator with dirty walnut shell and that didn't work---sealant collected the dirt. After that figured the sealant would just grab some of the powder(I use Tac, ball powder) when I dropped a charge so I took the tv/mek route---Made me more comfortable---also ran a bushing die over the neck to set tension for the same reason.

Steve

[ftierson]

How sticky is the sealant?

I haven't pulled down any loaded LC M80 recently, so I don't have much of a feel for that...

I have loaded many thousands of LC cases from the '05 -'15 time frame, they they didn't have any wet sealant.

Decades ago, I bought several cases of the CBC 75 M80 that was marked Reengastada (you know, the stuff that was later recalled for blowing up guns). I bought it because it was cheap (about $100/case(1000) as I recall. CAI 'offered' to buy it back because of the problem, offering $50/case (as I recall). I said no...

What I found was that the ammo was beautiful (the cartridge cases gorgeous, although Berdan primed, of course), and the bullets were much better made than the current US M80 bullets that I was seeing at the time.

Since it was suggested that the ammo had been sabotaged in storage to make it explode rifles, I decided to pull down a couple of cases of it. So I did, pulling the bullet, dumping the powder (a ball powder), weighing the powder charge for about 20rds per case (same lot) to establish an average charge weight (and then checking periodically over the case), and then resizing the cartridge cases, recharging the cases with the original powder (average weight of the 20 rds), then crimping the bullet (with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, of course ). I left the original primer since they were Berdan. I shot up these two cases of ammo in some bolt guns, an StG-58 and an Imbel, a CAI CETME and a RRA LAR-8, among others. It performed quite well, especially with the beautiful bullets.

I mention this here now because the bullets were sealed in the neck with a tar-like black sealer similar, I'm sure, to what we're talking about here. What I found while pulling the bullets was that there was great variability in the neck tension on the bullet (rounds were factory crimped).

The sealant was 'thick,' but not sticky in my definition of the word. When resizing the unfired cases, I found that the sealant would gum up my sizing die, and I had to clean the die every 100 sized cases or so. As I remember, I used a plastic bristled test tube brush and probably some BC Sheath (now Barricade). Even though it's not really a cleaner, it seemed to work well to clean out the die. I never attempted to clean any of the sealant from the inside of the case neck.

I charged the cases with a Lee Perfect Powder Measure, and I don't remember any of the powder sticking to sealant in the neck.

I then seated the bullets and crimped them...

And shot the shit...

Which shot extremely well.

After this experience with the first two cases (and realizing the variability in tightness of the bullets in the neck (none moved by finger twisting)), on the next case I just crimped the bullets in the case without doing anything else. It shot just fine too...

I resorted to this different approach on the 3rd case only because of the tight tolerances I had measured for bullet weight and powder charges on the first couple of cases.

I still have a couple of cases of the ammo, so I might still have a Kaboom somewhere in my future. Then again, I'll probably never get to it since I have plenty of more recent ammo to shoot up first...

My point here, probably hard to pick out with all the hueyness , is that leaving the sealant in the neck will probably work just fine...

Forrest

[Tuscan Raider]

Glad you guys are having minimal problems.

My main concern at this point would be neck tension.

Don’t think if a few load Ok that’s going to be the norm.

[boman]

How sticky is the sealant?

I mention this here now because the bullets were sealed in the neck with a tar-like black sealer

Forrest, pretty much the way I remember it. thick black sticky tar like. It's been 3 or 4 years since I reloaded those primed pulldowns(LC 13 or 14) and there's still close to 1k in a can out there in the pile somewhere.

we all load to different personal standards it seems which is all right, seems every ones safety threshold is well in hand. I'm not real particular with 5.56 or 7.62 because my ar's and Fal's are for fun and blasting and the only gas guns I shoot anymore.
Now when it comes to boltguns, I am meticulously anal even to the point of checking the bore for copper fouling with an endoscope(seriously).
I'm old school(turned 70 in Sept.) and really enjoy building and hunting with custom rifles, mostly on Mauser actions.
When I load for them, once the cases are preped and once fired they never see a full length die again. necks get a bushing die and thats it. no need to ever trim again and no split necks. can reload cases indefinitely if I anneal.
weigh each powder charge and seat to max mag length.
When I get the right load worked up the guns shoot pretty well

these are 5 shot groups from my current hunting rifle--30-06 1908dwm Mauser with a 25in barrel bedded in a Bell&Carlson stock. timney trigger
20180614_180413 by steve bowman, on Flickr
20180703_122056 by steve bowman, on Flickr

[HankC]

I bought 2K "blemished" primed 308WIN brass from another source 2 yrs ago at 12 cents/round, 90% LC, all good and like new, I was very happy until one day I got a missed fire and realized the primer is installed backward. I checked all the rest and about 2% have backward primer. Just your primer!

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by HankC

I bought 2K "blemished" primed 308WIN brass from another source 2 yrs ago at 12 cents/round, 90% LC, all good and like new, I was very happy until one day I got a missed fire and realized the primer is installed backward. I checked all the rest and about 2% have backward primer. Just your primer!

A way of testing your flinch...

Forrest

[jjjxlr8]

Thanks for the warning about crimping. I learned about that the hard way many years ago after pulling down a bunch of 'squashed/ruined' 5.56 rounds.

Unfortunately I end up trimming (or at least measuring) every case because I have a wide variety of semi-autos and it seems that the brass gets stretched more in some than others. It's not unusual when I process my brass that I find half a dozen or so out of a couple hundred cases that are longer than the rest even after three reloads. I guess the stuff is getting a little thinner each time!

I haven't measured any of these LC 7.62 primed cases yet, but I'm hoping they are consistent in length to facilitate easy neck crimping. I'll seat some bullets first and see if there is enough neck tension to avoid the hassle, though. My match bullets don't have a cannelure anyway, and I never crimp bullets without cannelures.

[maxaks]

Originally Posted by boman

Most likely M118LR pulldown. Same brass as m80 but w/o primer crimp.

Steve

Wouldnt m118 be extruded?

[hueyville]

Originally Posted by V guy

Not directed at you, just the post #45, about using WIKI for ammo reference, instead of Speer, Hornady, etc, etc, or this forums extensive information.

Amateurs and newbies do not know about the last 70 years of reloading history.

Is picture below a reloading Wiki? Some of the best information I have is in the manuals written between WW I and WW II. I have a phobia about online reloading references and until verified information from at least the bullet makers manual and powder makers manual don't drop powder based in internet loads posted in discussion groups or manufacturer online manuals.



While we are talking bargains, it's time to do another 10,000 count run of 5.56. Have found new Hornady 62 grain FMJBT for $419 per 5,500 count quantities (7.5 cents each). Anyone know of better deal without going to pulls? Have found Armscor 62 grain projectiles (6.9 cents each) slightly cheaper but unsure if they are good enough shooters to warrant saving less than a 1/2 cent per projectile. Have mega stores of new and pulled M855 which new are just 6.0 cents each, shoot decently but hammering on steel targets non stop with them is unnecessary wear on my and my friends steel plates, especially at closer ranges.

Just scored 5,000 Speer 6.8 90 grain Gold Dots at a great price which have brass prepped for and will worry about dropping those till get some bulk 5.56 projectiles in without getting into my emergency stores. Finally have enough 6.8 put back not worried about two dozen plus 6.8 ARs along with Mini 14s and bolt rifles running out of food to munch if had an extended ammo shortage. Since Speer released 90 and 115 grain Gold Dots as new components in bulk don't have to depend on a disproportionate number of 90 grain TNTs to feed them. As built my inventory of ammo as number of rifles increased the extra cost of powder and projectiles when shooting high volume has sent me scurrying back to my 5.56 poodle shooters for making noise.

Have somewhere between another 10,500 and 11,500 5.56 cases prepped ready to go when finish dropping what seems like a 55 galling drum to fill the ~5,000 fat 6.8 cases prepped. Amazing how much faster powder goes with 30% more case capacity. While am a die hard 6.8 man now have had to go back to 5.56 for range plinking as the extra 30% cost to run poodle shooters on the range it's much more economic to get my trigger time in shooting 5.56 when ringing steel and killing cardboard cutouts. Rather shoot 30% more 5.56 than worry about cost of same number of 6.8's just for run and gun range practice.

Am now in the same curve building 6.5 Creedmoor inventory as had been with 6.8 spc II as number of 6.5C rifles increase. With right shoulder having rotator cuff surgery twice and bad back am enjoying to softer recoil impulse of 6.5C over 7.62×51 on range and don't worry about cost. Just don't have to run as many 7.62 loads these days without depleting my zombie hoard or long term ammo shortage inventory. Seems odd that just a few years ago how Sandy Hook took so many folks out of even shooting rim fire and folks like me had to ration weekly limits on 5.56 especially.

Am in a position and have been for decades do not think it possible to ever run out of rim fire. Was mashing a lot of rim fire cases into 5.56 bullet jackets during Sandy Hook and was even going to local ranges and picking up rim fire cases as was unsure how long the shortage would last as it seemed to go on so long. Also amazes me how many people didn't learn from that event and still only buy ammo amd components as consume it. Plus if Internet goes down I can still reload as have enough information in print can work out almost any combination of cartridge, power and projectile. Know reloads that don't own a hard print manual because say it's much easier to look up load data on internet but my older books also show me how to paper patch a 6.5mm or 7mm bullet up to 308 if need to.

[W.E.G.]

Originally Posted by boman

Let us know how it works out. I tried a batch in my vibrator with dirty walnut shell and that didn't work---sealant collected the dirt.

Thanks for the warning. On your experience, I will forego adding walnut shell to the mess.

I'll just brush out the necks on a small batch with a nylon brush and see how it goes just leaving the residual sealant in place, and not initially bothering with any sort of neck-sizing.

[W.E.G.]

Originally Posted by ftierson

How sticky is the sealant?


I have loaded many thousands of LC cases from the '05 -'15 time frame, they they didn't have any wet sealant.

It was obviously very sticky when the rounds were pulled down. Sticky enough to really grab the powder.

When brushing with a nylon brush, one in-and-out clears all the powder from the neck. I suspect the stickum has dried-out. I guess I'll find out for sure when I drop powder charges.

[hueyville]

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RUST REMOVAL

Use it in an ultrasonic cleaner and by now most serious shooters and reloaders should have an ultrasonic. Also in the past before found a chemical that didn't screw up brass. Had a friend that would shine his carry bullets with Brasso whenever they got dull until one day at the range after end of shooting a few hundred rounds of range ammo through whichever handguns carried would grab the magazine of carry ammo that had been in pistol for a while or speed loaders of carry ammo from wheel guns that had been loaded for a while and ran the mags and cylinders dry. He asked why and told him after being in gun for weeks to a couple months in heat, weather, paint overspray at work plus chemicals I used like to burn my old carry rounds and replace with fresh. Also after training with nothing but cast range ammo wanted to remind myself of carry ammo recoil and verify it hit where aimed.

He thought about all his shiny carry ammo being well over a year in his guns and decided to follow my lead. His auto pistols immediately began having failures to extract and eject. His wheel guns when fired all rounds more cases were split than not. Asked him how old rounds were and said all a year or two which didn't make sense. Noticed they shined like new pennies and in asking questions he said he kept them clean using Brasso when got to looking dull. I explained Brasso was ammonia based and cleaned brass by actually eating the top surface away also causing it to become brittle.

Turpentine has been tested for years cleaning brass bushings in machines, carburators (have your carb cleaner eat up a 1918 Harley or 1969 Chevy Camara pair of cross ram carburators and a client might kill you) and more items with small and precise brass parts. After running though a cycle of SharperTEK Shellac Buster then always run through another cycle of liquid brass cleaner to flush the chemical well as unsure if residue inside cases might have a negative reaction with gun powder over time. There are several high end mechanic and machinist cleaning fluids that are safe on brass and you have to test for yourself and use caution.

A little knowledge of chemistry or someone who does is a good thing. I have Berryman Chem-Dip in shop for cleaning engine parts and have been told it's safe on brass but noting how aggressive it is have not even tried it. Much of the mixed brass I have purchased or been given over the years just to be sure it's all properly softened from the start I run it though my annealing machine before I even tumble it. A pair of propane torch heads heating the necks as they spin and turn will burn most sealants off military brass but now I use the ultrasonic first. Most brass I get is either new or once fired so don't deal with this issue often. I did buy over 18,000 XM68GD pull down cases and even more projectiles when 6.8 was new and military was doing initial testing but none has sealer on necks, only primers. All brass alloys are slightly different so suggest running a small test batch before pouring a thousand or more cases into a chemical you have never tried.

[boman]

Originally Posted by maxaks

Wouldnt m118 be extruded?

Max, I'm not sure I understand your question. If you're asking about the cases/brass all cartridge cases/brass are extruded from a preform.

Steve

[boman]

Originally Posted by Tuscan Raider

Glad you guys are having minimal problems.

My main concern at this point would be neck tension.

Don’t think if a few load Ok that’s going to be the norm.

I'm with you on this concern. Since this is essentially new brass with annealed necks one can assume there is not much inherent tension in the neck as it was technically dead soft from annealing. The necks have been slightly work hardened from loading and subsequent pulling but not enough in my opinion to securely hold a bullet. A once fired case that's been run thru a full length die with a spindle is a whole nother beast and has adequate work hardening to hold the bullet w/o a crimp in my experience. Edit: Gary measured the od. on the neck of this brass at .034 which tells me this brass never had a bullet seated. If a bullet had been seated it would at least measure >.037. neck tension shouldn't be an issue.

FWIW--aside from rough handling by the end users in the military--I believe the main reason the military specification calls for crimping is because they also call for annealling the necks before loading.

Steve

[boman]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

It was obviously very sticky when the rounds were pulled down. Sticky enough to really grab the powder.

When brushing with a nylon brush, one in-and-out clears all the powder from the neck. I suspect the stickum has dried-out. I guess I'll find out for sure when I drop powder charges.

Sounds all good. even if a few kernels stick---no big issue.

Steve

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by boman

Max, I'm not sure I understand your question. If you're asking about the cases/brass all cartridge cases/brass are extruded from a preform.

Steve

I think that he was talking about extruded powder, not ball...

Then again, I might be wrong. I think that I was once...

Forrest

[jjjxlr8]

I seated 3 different types of bullets in these cases over the weekend as a test. I just made 10 rounds of each type. The M25 tracers and 168gr Nosler Cutomer Competition bullets seem to seat pretty tight. The 147 gr. FMJ bullets, with less bearing surface, seemed to press in pretty easily. I'm a little nervous about those. If I had a neck sizing die I'd probably use it for the peace of mind. For now, I think I'm going to use these cases for the longer bullets. All the bullets measure the same .304" diameter.

Edit: Outer diameters of the necks of the unloaded cases measure around .335", which is pretty much what the diameters of these loaded case necks measure (maybe .3355"). I would have expected the case necks to expand a bit from seating the bullets. This makes me think that neck sizing would be a good idea for these cases.

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by jjjxlr8

I seated 3 different types of bullets in these cases over the weekend as a test. I just made 10 rounds of each type. The M25 tracers and 168gr Nosler Cutomer Competition bullets seem to seat pretty tight. The 147 gr. FMJ bullets, with less bearing surface, seemed to press in pretty easily. I'm a little nervous about those. If I had a neck sizing die I'd probably use it for the peace of mind. For now, I think I'm going to use these cases for the longer bullets. All the bullets measure the same .304" diameter.

That's interesting...

Forrest

[W.E.G.]

You can find out real quick whether those loaded rounds "needed" neck-sizing or not.

First measure the OAL of each.

Load them up in a magazine, and cycle them through the action.
(Don't do this in your basement - AMHIK)

Measure the rounds after they have been cycled through the action. If you have significant movement of the bullet due to the cycling, you probably need to do something to improve neck tension. Otherwise, don't make work for yourself. Handloaders get some wild ideas about what "has to be done" to load good ammo.

[W.E.G.]

I'll also warn, don't get too excited about my measurements of outside diameter of the cases. Especially if you are wanting to rely on it being dead-accurate to one one-thousandth. The cases are all just-enough buggered from perfectly-round at the neck that the numbers I'm putting out are only "close."

[V guy]

https://www.sinclairintl.com/guntech....htm?lid=16099

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/rif...-and-accuracy/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-straightener/

For those days when you want to get on the road to concentricity, after weighing each case and bullet and charge.

[Mebsuta]

I may never resize or trim another 5.56 after they confiscate my sh-t in a few years. We'll see.

[boman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjxlr8 View Post
I seated 3 different types of bullets in these cases over the weekend as a test. I just made 10 rounds of each type. The M25 tracers and 168gr Nosler Cutomer Competition bullets seem to seat pretty tight. The 147 gr. FMJ bullets, with less bearing surface, seemed to press in pretty easily. I'm a little nervous about those. If I had a neck sizing die I'd probably use it for the peace of mind. For now, I think I'm going to use these cases for the longer bullets. All the bullets measure the same .304" diameter.

check your calipers. those bullets measure .308 or they ain't 30 cal also go back and read post 89 about where I reference neck diameter. .034 is diameter of a sized neck and a stretched neck should measure >037.

Steve

[jjjxlr8]

Well, $h!t. That's what I get for using a cheap digital caliper!

I dug out my old Chicago Il. Enco Japanese made calipers and measured the bullet diameters at .3075" or just below .308". A bit hard to read but just below .308", anyway. The diameters of the loaded case necks were just below .375", which still aren't much different than the unloaded case necks.

Now, I need to go back and adjust my OALs as the digital calipers I used to set it aren't working right. Battery is measuring 1.57v but obviously something is wrong.

I'm glad you guys pointed that out! Thanks!

[boman]

Originally Posted by jjjxlr8

Well, $h!t. That's what I get for using a cheap digital caliper!

I dug out my old Chicago Il. Enco Japanese made calipers and measured the bullet diameters at .3075" or just below .308". A bit hard to read but just below .308", anyway. The diameters of the loaded case necks were just below .375", which still aren't much different than the unloaded case necks.

Now, I need to go back and adjust my OALs as the digital calipers I used to set it aren't working right. Battery is measuring 1.57v but obviously something is wrong.

I'm glad you guys pointed that out! Thanks!

no problem. those cases are stretched. to get proper neck tension I would resize. Gary's wern't if they measured .034

Steve