The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapon Specific Forums > The HK Files

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 18, 2020, 04:30   #1
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 7,322
PTR 91 pistol vs DSA SA58 pistol

Took a pass on a PTR 91 pistol with folding brace back before Christmas as was saving cash for AR 10 parts deals. Had very few rounds, Choate folding brace and 12" barrel. Was so close to buying that walked it to register then returned to rack twice after doing full inspection on headspace/bolt gap. My issue was two fold, first my price was $900 (a decent deal) but 12" barrel is considered rifle in several states I travel so as a MBR truck gun the barrel was a deal killer though chopping an inch and rethreading is not impossible. Have two HKS and a PTR Match rifle so lack of compatability with in-house rifles was not an issue.

Now looking at the DSA SA58 FAL OSW PISTOL - 11" Barrel - Folding Arm Brace & Rail Handguard Included but it's $1,800 retail though can get for cost through employee discount purchase. Again totally compatability with my metric FALs, has folding brace for small package and 11" barrel makes it legal in more states as a loaded truck gun under my CCW/GWL reciprocal rights. I do know my 16" short gas FAL is decent to shoot it's a bit stout and prefer not to shoot it without a suppressor.

Also have several CETMEs and putting a folding stock on one would be cheap and easy but still have a rifle. If SBR a CETMES still have NFA B.S. to deal with if travel. Anyone know of a CETMES 308 pistol or legal way to go from rifle to pistol. Know it's o.k. to convert pistol to rifle and not rifle to pistol unless was a pistol in past life on a 4473.

For some reason am wanting a 7.62◊51 battle rifle in pistol trim for truck gun use even though totally happy with our pair of Noveske 10.5" piston drive AR 15s in 6.8 as are handy plus deliver much more downrange thump than 5.56. Have considered an AR 10 pistol build but just seems boring though would give the option to build in 338 Federal for extra thump but can't fire from folded stock. Does the hive have recommendations on above mentioned firearms or possibly something have not considered. Would like to keep this under $1,500 as may find it oppressive and move to rear of a vault sooner than later.

The 11" DSA SA58 is a slick looking pistol and know it will likely spew much past 200 yards but enough rounds will either scare aggressor off or hook up and end a fight quickly. All choices have magazines and spare parts to support. The "pistol" will be all I need except for optic if chose to run a 1x or 3x dot. The DSA with Elcan 1x-4x throw lever scope would be a wallet burner but would fill a lot of truck rifle gaps. Am I missing an option?
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18, 2020, 15:28   #2
grumpy1
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 72190
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: ut
Posts: 696
Why are you wanting a 308 pistol? To me it is complete waste, as a large amount of powder will be un- burnt which translates to lower velocity with a very large muzzle flash. A friend of mine has a 16.25 inch FAL and even with that his fire ball is impressive even durning daylight shooting and at night it is just plain fun to watch but sucks to shoot.

In my opinion your best option is for you to build an AR10 which you donít sound all that excited about doing as it most likely will just end up in the back of the vault.

I would say stick with your 6.8 and be happy and stop looking for a solution to a problem that doesnít exist. But that is where you and I differ, I choose quality over quantity (not to say you donít have quality guns).
grumpy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18, 2020, 16:25   #3
zombie hunter
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 62660
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 312
I just finished building an 11" OSW clone (mix of DSA and surplus parts and Imbel receiver), but it's mostly for fun. It ended up weighing 9lbs and throws fireballs like grumpy1 mentioned. .308 from an 11" barrel still has better ballistics than intermediate rounds, but it's hard to justify the weight and blast.
zombie hunter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 18, 2020, 19:07   #4
lew
Registered
 
lew's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 16727
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 8,966
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy1 View Post
Why are you wanting a 308 pistol? To me it is complete waste, as a large amount of powder will be un- burnt which translates to lower velocity with a very large muzzle flash.
Right? May as well go with 7.62x39 and get better performance. If the pistol is just for shits and giggs, then whatever.
__________________
Statism: Ideas so great, they're mandatory.

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -H.L. Mencken
lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28, 2020, 23:11   #5
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 7,322
The goal is 11.5" legally defined barrel length so "weapon" is classified as a pistol. Some states define any 12" barrel a rifle which were game laws often implimented when the Thompson Contender type pistols were being used on managed pistol hunts. Thus need to stay under that length to carry loaded when travelling under reciprocal rights with CCW. Have three 10.5" 6.8 spc II piston drive AR 15 pistols that are tack drivers at 100 yards and easily used to 250 yards with red dot optic. Also have a pair of 10.5" 5.56 piston drive AR pistols and down range energy is easily observed as less effective than the 6.8s.

I trip across 12" PTR pistols in 7.62◊51 at fair deals on occasion and if we're 11.5" would have owned one but don't want to go to effort of chopping a half inch off. Also, when not travelling an 11.5" barrel with a suppressor still comes up as an 18" weapon with standard size can and 16" with compact can. As to need? No real need and not interested in ◊39 pistols as personal preference. Admit there is significant velocity fall off in 7.62◊51 when barrel length drops this far but still out runs ◊39 and 300 BO by 250 fps but adds huge muzzle blast issues. Basically am looking at a toy can run with suppressor for room clearing exercises that could be carried loaded as a pistol when travelling if wanted.

Right now my favorite short barrel round is 458 SOCOM and it can't really be beat for energy on target with 550 grain bullets out to 100 yards where projectiles begin falling like a brick. Subsonic in room clearing a suppressed 8.5" 458 SOCOM is a game changer. While have plenty of short barrel toys don't have a 7.62◊51 and am interested in it to play with and flip if do not like it.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28, 2020, 23:53   #6
grumpy1
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 72190
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: ut
Posts: 696
Well Huey, being one that has spent 6 years on a SWAT team I think I have an understanding of what works and what doesnít work when clearing rooms. Our primary weapon was an M4, our pistol was almost never used. We trained and practiced with them a lot but we never relied on them. There is a saying, your pistol is there to fight your way to your rifle. A pistol in any configuration or caliber is still a just a pistol. Use the right tool for the right job. While you can use a ball end mill to cut a slot, the proper tool would be an end mill.

Now if itís just for chits and giggles, get what everyone blows your hair back or which ever you happen to fall into a good deal with. If it were me, Iíd look at an AR10. That way if I got bored with it I could always turn it into a rifle very easily.
grumpy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2020, 00:18   #7
HenryIV
Je me souviens
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 80384
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Western KY
Posts: 226
Donít do it. You will not like it. No normal person will shoot a very short barreled .308 more then a few times?

How do I know? My Knob Creek friends have a 1919A4 rigged with a 10Ē barrel. I have shot a belt through it. I have been nearby when others have dumped many belts through. It is so unpleasant to be near you canít even imagine the concussion and sensation of cumulative brain and ear damage. Of course the purpose of my friends creation is to be as loud and obnoxious as possible. They succeeded. Unless this is also your sole purpose I would give it a pass.
HenryIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2020, 07:28   #8
Grinder
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 3407
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: PA.
Posts: 1,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryIV View Post
Donít do it. You will not like it. No normal person will shoot a very short barreled .308 more then a few times?.
I guess I'm not normal
Grinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2020, 10:24   #9
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 7,322
Honestly won't shoot my 16" FAL without suppressor and it has had a can on it for two years now. Keep tripping across PTR Pistols lightly used at a deal and sure muzzle blast is why they come back to LGS quickly. My primary choices for clearing a structure are 10.5" AR piston drive in 6.8 spc II with compact suppressor and 8.5" 458 SOCOM with a big 2"◊10" can to launch 550 grain JSPs. My interest in the PTR is what it may take to make shootable. If it likes Tubbs 355 grain subsonic Absolute 2 Hole ammo it could be shootable and effective.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2020, 15:59   #10
jam762
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 68968
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: OHIO
Posts: 1,462
Considered a kel-tek RFB? Itís very compact(27.5Ē OAL) with 18Ē bbl and itís 7.62. Plus it takes FAL mags. They run very well and have adjustable gas system.
jam762 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2020, 20:44   #11
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 7,322
Have 16" FAL, two 16" AR 10s, 18" Springfield M1a, two 18" AR 10s then can start lonngg list of 20", 21", 22", 22.5", 24" and 26" assorted medium battle rifles. Seeing a trend? Am seeing trade in 12" PTR pistols which can buy used at cost the LGS credited previous owner as a trade. Like another LGS that is a huge SIG dealer and usually has two and part of a third display case of SIG pistols and one with nothing but SIG 1911s. Roughly 1/4 of the 1911s they sell in 357 SIG, 10mm and 45 acp come back in two to eight weeks to be traded for a 9mm due to excessive recoil and usually still have rounds left in original box of ammo sold with the pistol.

Store owner does not like to fill a case with nice clean used SIG 1911s as folks buy the used pistol and then bring it back as a two owner then a three owner pistol. When someone trades a SIG 1911 in major caliber it's put on a shelf in back room and when I come in they sit closed box on counter and a 4473 which I fill out and pay a flat rate. Unless marked on side of box or they already have pistols information on the 4473 I don't even know which model and caliber I bought. Pay a flat rate whether it's a $795 or $1,295 retail, has one magazine fired or a hundred rounds fired (usually two to three magazines is all the armchair 1911 warriors can tolerate before crawling back for a minor caliber pistol) price is always the same and have a stack of SIG 1911s climbing to the ceiling. Especially like the Double Nickel Compacts as they come flying back to the store.

The other LGS of three I frequent seems to sell and take back a lot of PTR 308 12" pistols as usually one used down low and off to the side of the new units. Same deal here, I get a lot of the trades they want off the rack for one reason or another at stunning prices. Along with 308 pistols this store gets lots of semi custom, full custom and wildcat turnbolts. Have bought two 22 CHeetahs from them and most people have never seen two 22 CHeetahs as an odd wildcat that can only use Match 308 cases necked down to 224, only shoots 50 to 52 grain projectiles stable and average barrel life is 800 to 1,200 accurate rounds before throat is smoked. But for killing crows over a big corn field right after spring planting a 22 CHeetah with 12-36x scope will turn crows into little feather grenades.

I love oddball rifles especially rifles others have given up on for one reason or another. Both CHeetahs had crisp throats and believe owners were not proficient enough handloaders to find a load they shot well as finicky animals. Have one that shoots 50 grain bullets in one hole but spews 52 grainers. One ladder of each and I know. Have 7mm Practicals, 7mm RUM, 300 RUM customs all off same rack which some had sold twice after person who had built traded in and came back two more times with ten more rounds fired and a bruised ego. Most built by same guy who built my consigned 7mm Practicals, 22-250 Ackley Improved and other wildcats.

I just want a 7.62◊51 pistol to play with and figure out the combination of accessories and ammo that makes it a fun and possibly useful toy. The PTR will have to cut an inch off barrel to be a pistol is several mid south states. The 11" DSA SA58 is a pistol in all states I travel but don't see them used would have to order up a new one using employee discount. Thus chopping an inch off a used PTR would likely be cheaper. Figure between loading light charges of fast powder behind heavy bullets, heavy subsonics, or maybe the right full power load, playing with and without a suppressor may come up with magic or another odd gun for back of the vaults.

Between 100 to 250 grain bullets and a variety of powders may find something it really likes or not. If find right combo for the Maximum Effective Range am satisfied with can put it into the truck gun rotation or range toy group to confound other shooters. When I begin to see a lot of any pistols traded in that can be purchased cheap (except Glocks) will usually jump in and find a use for them. Had no attraction to the SIG 2022 or 40 Smith but purchased one new in 40 Smith for $275 out the door, stopped at Walmart and bought a 250 round range pack of white box Federal ammo and when ran out of ammo about two hours later went and bought the other new one store had at same price. Now own nine or ten 2022s in 9mm, 357 SIG and 40 Smith which was picking them up lightly used for $175 at times.

Call be a bottom feeding hoe, but if can find something with potential cheap will give it a try. If make it work to my satisfaction then will stack them like firewood. If buy a PTR, figure out a way to make it useful will tell LGS owner and manager to stop putting trade-ins on rack but hold in back and tag with my name. Like older style Browning A5 scatter guns, have a metric ton of them as bought another dozen in 18 months looking for a host to use my Rhodesian kit with but all were too nice to chop so kit still sits waiting for a host. I believe a PTR pistol has to have some sort of use if enough effort is put into it even if leave 12" and use as suppressor host around the house. If not, won't buy a second and can write that project off the list. If anyone spots an 11" SA58 at bargain let me know as its my first choice for a 308 pistol but FAL varients seem to be a rarity in my area unless drive across the county line to Stimpson's homestead.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2019 The FAL Files