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Old December 18, 2019, 11:52   #1
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investing in metals

with a few extra bucks what is the consensus on investing in brass and lead vs silver. Ammo is available at reasonable prices right now and silver is at a reduced pricing from prior years. Thanks in advance for your responsel
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Old December 18, 2019, 12:28   #2
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with a few extra bucks what is the consensus on investing in brass and lead vs silver. Ammo is available at reasonable prices right now and silver is at a reduced pricing from prior years. Thanks in advance for your responsel
Investing is about the future. You are making a bet with your money that you will make money with your investment. Let me know what your crystal ball says.
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Old December 18, 2019, 12:45   #3
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with a few extra bucks what is the consensus on investing in brass and lead vs silver. Ammo is available at reasonable prices right now and silver is at a reduced pricing from prior years. Thanks in advance for your responsel
Brass and lead is always usable.


Buy it cheap and stackitdeep !


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Old December 18, 2019, 12:55   #4
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I recently picked up $1k in AR 15 mags.

If you go back before the tech boom of the 90's financial advisers recommended ~5% of your wealth in precious metals, and I could give historical examples of how 1-2 oz of gold per member of the family saved quite a few people.

But I don't view them as an investment, but as a hedge.

I'd your looking to hedge, fine.

If your looking for an investment.... You can do better IMHO.
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Old December 18, 2019, 13:30   #5
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I have short term investments now days because I am too old to think long term It's a buy and sell world out there, buy it today if you can sell it quick. Long term investments are for the young.
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Old December 18, 2019, 13:43   #6
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Brass and lead is always usable.


Buy it cheap and stackitdeep !


..................
This ^^. The late great Jeff Cooper used to call it Ballistic Wampum. If and when it ever does come to a barter economy odds are that .22lr will be substantially more useful for trades than Krugies.
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Old December 18, 2019, 13:58   #7
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This ^^. The late great Jeff Cooper used to call it Ballistic Wampum. If and when it ever does come to a barter economy odds are that .22lr will be substantially more useful for trades than Krugies.
You ever try to carry 86 bricks of .22 in your pocket?
Everything in its place.
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Old December 18, 2019, 14:03   #8
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This ^^. The late great Jeff Cooper used to call it Ballistic Wampum. If and when it ever does come to a barter economy odds are that .22lr will be substantially more useful for trades than Krugies.
And 22lr is as cheap as its been in the last 7 years. Bought a bit for 3.2 cents a round to shoot in my new Ruger.
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Old December 18, 2019, 14:05   #9
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You ever try to carry 86 bricks of .22 in your pocket?
Everything in its place.
Ever try killing a rabbit with a kuegerand?
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Old December 18, 2019, 14:42   #10
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Ever try killing a rabbit with a kuegerand?
I typically just break their necks.

Note second part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
You ever try to carry 86 bricks of .22 in your pocket?
Everything in its place.
Both is better.
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Old December 18, 2019, 14:47   #11
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I am well prepped in all metals so no problem here. I have more ammo than I could use in two lifetimes, a few hundred firearms and maybe a quarter of my investment portfolio is in physical Silver and Gold bullion. Have food storage and basic necessities to last a few years as well as land (rural and rental real estate). So now as long as I have no debt if I were to add anything it would be more physical precious metals (American Silver-Gold Eagles) along with additional rental real estate and income producing paper securities (Private Equity - non accredited and accredited, High Yield Stocks, Royalty Trusts, MLPs, ETFs, CEFs, REITs, etc.).
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Old December 18, 2019, 15:20   #12
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You ever try to carry 86 bricks of .22 in your pocket?
Everything in its place.
Yes, or rather no but I can imagine. Along the same lines, ever try to buy a cold beer or a couple gallons of high-test with a krugerrand? Especially when the other guy doesn't want to make change?

Yes, everything in it's place.

b.
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Old December 18, 2019, 15:26   #13
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Yes, or rather no but I can imagine. Along the same lines, ever try to buy a cold beer or a couple gallons of high-test with a krugerrand? Especially when the other guy doesn't want to make change?

Yes, everything in it's place.

b.
You understand they make various denominations of Krugerrands... Right?
Maple leaves too.
I even have a 1/10 oz Chinese panda.
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Old December 18, 2019, 15:49   #14
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You understand they make various denominations of Krugerrands... Right?
Maple leaves too.
I even have a 1/10 oz Chinese panda.
Ya I would not take gold on trade, don't know if it's real.

No really, what will you do if nobody takes your PMs in trade?

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Old December 18, 2019, 16:05   #15
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Ya I would not take gold on trade, don't know if it's real.
I wont take gold in trade, no matter......well, at 10 cents on the dollar I would...


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Old December 18, 2019, 16:31   #16
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I wont take gold in trade, no matter......well, at 10 cents on the dollar I would...


..................
Well Terry, if that's all a man has to trade and nobody takes it then what are his options?
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Old December 18, 2019, 17:21   #17
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Well Terry, if that's all a man has to trade and nobody takes it then what are his options?
Trade his labor. Skills do matter.






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Old December 18, 2019, 17:28   #18
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I even have a 1/10 oz Chinese panda.
I bet that is a cute little feller. Probably donít eat much either.
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Old December 18, 2019, 17:40   #19
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Trade his labor. Skills do matter.

........
Mmmmm I don't know, if he doesn't have his own tools then what can he do but haul firewood?
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Old December 18, 2019, 17:43   #20
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I bet that is a cute little feller. Probably donít eat much either.
I did get a small touch of Gold bug and bought my wife a gold necklace that held a 10th ounce coin in a gold band. Not sure if it was a maple leaf or panda. Daughter has it now so I will have to ask her when I see her.
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Old December 18, 2019, 18:09   #21
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You understand they make various denominations of Krugerrands... Right?
Maple leaves too.
I even have a 1/10 oz Chinese panda.
Yeah, but you're still paying $140 plus for a beer, just sayin ....
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Old December 18, 2019, 18:10   #22
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Trade his labor. Skills do matter.






.......................
At the end of the day that's just about ALL that matters. Rest is just a placeholder.
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Old December 18, 2019, 18:36   #23
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Take your family on a memorable vacation. Who wants to live out their old age in a buried school bus full of dried fruit and ammo.
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Old December 18, 2019, 18:52   #24
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It's funny how the topic of PMs goes on. Remember back when gold was around $1800 and they were saying gold is headed to $4600? Er it went to about $1200 I think.

Investment, who is in control of your investment because it doesn't seem to be supply and demand. Who sets the price of pms?
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Old December 18, 2019, 19:11   #25
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Mmmmm I don't know, if he doesn't have his own tools then what can he do but haul firewood?
Laundry.

Pull weeds.

Do bird calls and shadow puppets for entertainment.


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Old December 18, 2019, 19:18   #26
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Laundry.

Pull weeds.

Do bird calls and shadow puppets for entertainment.


..................
And what would you be willing to trade to him for those services?
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Old December 18, 2019, 19:22   #27
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It's funny how the topic of PMs goes on. Remember back when gold was around $1800 and they were saying gold is headed to $4600? Er it went to about $1200 I think.

Investment, who is in control of your investment because it doesn't seem to be supply and demand. Who sets the price of pms?
Who indeed?? Depends on the PMs. By and large it's central banks, or the entities that own them that set the price of gold.

And before leaving this topic it's worth remembering who 'they' were. In particular 'they' were the folks who wanted you to buy. Funny, that ...
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Old December 18, 2019, 20:24   #28
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And what would you be willing to trade to him for those services?

On which day ?

How good a launderer / botanist / entertainer is he ?

Are his specific skills in high demand ?

How desperate am I for the work to be done ?

Is it a piece work arrangement, or daily labor ?

Is he a good negotiator ?

What is available for me to barter ?

Did it rain ?

Who was our 11th President ?

Does spotted owl taste like alligator ?

.................
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Old December 18, 2019, 22:14   #29
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Old December 19, 2019, 00:17   #30
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Ya I would not take gold on trade, don't know if it's real.

No really, what will you do if nobody takes your PMs in trade?
I'm going on my 5th year living in my 100% offgrid house.

I heat (and in winter mostly cook) using my Waterford Stanley wood stove.

I have 1,400 sqft of raised beds, and added 80 fruit and nut trees to my orchard this year.

I like to can, I have about 900 jars full now since I jared about 200 quarts of Apple and pear cider I picked and juiced myself. (I'm also making gallons of pear vinegar (had far more pears than apples)
My buddy I did this with chose to make wine, but I'm not much of a drinker.

I butcher a fair % of the meat that I eat, own livestock (lost my bees, but I'll get some again. I have Friends with hives locally if nothing else.)
-I have a real problem with freezer space as my 14.8 cubic foot (solar powered) freezer stays full. Even with canning and dehydrating.

I use tattler reusable canning lids. I have 3,000+ but only about 1,700 canning jars. (~450 assorted quarts will feed you for a year per a 1920 's ball canning book.

I 'may' have a spare gun or two, and your not a gunnut till you've bought a pallet Jack to move your ammo.

Don't have a Tractor yet, (technically I have one, but not sure if I'll keep it.) but have a 500 gal farm tank for fuel.

Pretty sure I'll be fine.


Oh:
None of this is because I live in fear of anything. I like this lifestyle. I like learning skills like tanning, and the old way of doing things. I like (like now) sitting next to my wood stove and surfing the net.

But I AM an adherent to "The Alpha Stratigy"
By buying in bulk and sales I've saved more money that that same money invested in IRA'S (which I also have)

And I like knowing where my food comes from. I am a Master Gardner and practice seed saving also.

If "something" WERE to happen I am a member of a group that runs into burning buildings for free (Vol FD) it includes a number of vets And several (such as myself) combat vets.
I have a variety of denominations from bars down to silver dimes to help 'kickstart' bardertown.... A pocketfull of change is much easier to carry than 12 different sizes of shoes or a wagonload of apples.

You people should look up "hacksilver"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacksilver
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Old December 19, 2019, 00:18   #31
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Yeah, but you're still paying $140 plus for a beer, just sayin ....
I don't drink beer, have silver, and a hatchet.
See link above.
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Old December 19, 2019, 10:58   #32
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I don't drink beer, have silver, and a hatchet.
See link above.
For emergency trade purposes i've long favored silver myself. So-callled 'junk' silver is what I maintain as it's coined in known and accepted quantities, but hacksilver and pure silver rounds (liberty, sunshine etc) work too.

Gold is really more about wealth preservation and best left to those who don't care if they lose half or more in value and can afford to make the calculation that if 30% survives it's OK. Most folks don't fall into that category. And in any case it's more of a prepping for teotwawki scenario than what typically is meant by 'investing'.

Frankly I find gold a bit overpriced as it has traditionally been valued at 10x what silver is until recent times, which would put it in the $150-200 range. And of course there are those who will counter by saying that silver is undervalued, but with production costs being what they are that is a harder argument to make. In any case both markets are manipulated so it's really hard to gauge what a true 'free market' price might be. That by itself is enough to scare me away from dumping serious assets into metals.
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Old December 19, 2019, 11:15   #33
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
I'm going on my 5th year living in my 100% offgrid house.

I heat (and in winter mostly cook) using my Waterford Stanley wood stove.

I have 1,400 sqft of raised beds, and added 80 fruit and nut trees to my orchard this year.

I like to can, I have about 900 jars full now since I jared about 200 quarts of Apple and pear cider I picked and juiced myself. (I'm also making gallons of pear vinegar (had far more pears than apples)
My buddy I did this with chose to make wine, but I'm not much of a drinker.

I butcher a fair % of the meat that I eat, own livestock (lost my bees, but I'll get some again. I have Friends with hives locally if nothing else.)
-I have a real problem with freezer space as my 14.8 cubic foot (solar powered) freezer stays full. Even with canning and dehydrating.

I use tattler reusable canning lids. I have 3,000+ but only about 1,700 canning jars. (~450 assorted quarts will feed you for a year per a 1920 's ball canning book.

I 'may' have a spare gun or two, and your not a gunnut till you've bought a pallet Jack to move your ammo.

Don't have a Tractor yet, (technically I have one, but not sure if I'll keep it.) but have a 500 gal farm tank for fuel.

Pretty sure I'll be fine.


Oh:
None of this is because I live in fear of anything. I like this lifestyle. I like learning skills like tanning, and the old way of doing things. I like (like now) sitting next to my wood stove and surfing the net.

But I AM an adherent to "The Alpha Stratigy"
By buying in bulk and sales I've saved more money that that same money invested in IRA'S (which I also have)

And I like knowing where my food comes from. I am a Master Gardner and practice seed saving also.

If "something" WERE to happen I am a member of a group that runs into burning buildings for free (Vol FD) it includes a number of vets And several (such as myself) combat vets.
I have a variety of denominations from bars down to silver dimes to help 'kickstart' bardertown.... A pocketfull of change is much easier to carry than 12 different sizes of shoes or a wagonload of apples.

You people should look up "hacksilver"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacksilver
I grew up in a poor family so you learn a lot of survival skills like making do without what others have. Ate a lot of wild game we killed and butchered ourselves. Killed gutted and cleaned thousands of chickens that my mom took in trade for rent money for the extra room out back. You learn a great deal when forced to do without, it's not the way I want to live and I don't but I can.

Do I prep? I did prep pretty good until the wife died. What do we prep for if it isn't for longer life and life isn't that important now. Age too is a factor, my eating isn't near what it was when I was working 16 hours a day so how much will an old man eat?

Plus I try to think out needs, I have lots of firewood for my woodstove. I have lots of hand tools and know how to use them. Worked in the building trades most of my life and can build from underground on up. The older you get you realize you won't be doing any building.

So I figure if it get rough I will be a merchant that trades, buy and sell. The guys that think they will tough out a living don't realize what it takes and most cant. Really hard work people run from, I worked heavy construction my entire career and most men are not suited to labor.

In hard time and you see those hard times in the streets of Kali right now,folks get by with eat, sleep and drink because they have no choice. I could live on the streets but I wont.

Really this gun nut thing, you ain't a gun nut until you have shot up pallets of ammo. Run with the NFA crowd a lot of years. I don't have pallets of ammo anymore but can roll my own should the need arise.

Still if you come to me wanting something I picked up I won't take gold, too much of its been faked and I can't tell which is which. You would have to bring something I want or I know others want to trade. A jar of food you canned will be worth more than the gold you carry to me and I can look at the seal and know if it's good. Canned a lot all my life. Growing dill outside the kitchen window.
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Old December 19, 2019, 20:53   #34
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Mining activities are expensive propositions.
A great deal of the all in sustaining costs of mine production in the gold and silver specific mining operations is the cost of energy, both electricity and diesel fuel.
Some gold and silver is produces as a byproduct of other metal mining operations, but if you are curious about what it costs to produce an ounce of gold at the major gold producers, here is an article that spells it out for you.
This article is a year or so old so costs may be slightly different today.

https://srsroccoreport.com/analysts-...-market-price/
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Old December 20, 2019, 06:31   #35
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Mining activities are expensive propositions.
A great deal of the all in sustaining costs of mine production in the gold and silver specific mining operations is the cost of energy, both electricity and diesel fuel.
Some gold and silver is produces as a byproduct of other metal mining operations, but if you are curious about what it costs to produce an ounce of gold at the major gold producers, here is an article that spells it out for you.
This article is a year or so old so costs may be slightly different today.

https://srsroccoreport.com/analysts-...-market-price/
Yes they are. Then again whenever the price of a metal climbs operations which were previously uneconomical become viable and new production starts up. So one would expect that the base production costs will climb with the spot price.

You're also right about how metals occur in mixed ores, in particular silver. Which leads to some 'creative' accounting practices with respect to how costs are allocated, both production costs and depletion allowances. Production facilities very often want to show little profit for obvious reasons, saving the black ink for years when they need it. Likewise they'll try to flush red ink in years when they're gonna have it anyway. If you're gonna have a write down, get it all done at once is the thinking. All this makes it *especially* tough to gauge accurately where the cost really is.

Then there's the price manipulation of the final product as previously discussed. All these factors together lead for a pretty sketchy investment landscape from the standpoint of generating revenue at least.
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Old December 25, 2019, 10:48   #36
Whydah
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PMs do not increase or decrease in value. The Dollar does, however. If you have PMs as an investment and sell them once the Dollar prices rises significantly, you are only trading stable-valued PMs for depreciated Dollars. Net gain = zero.

Read recently that since 1971 and nixon taking the Dollar off the gold standard that the Dollar has decreased in value by 80%. Concurrently during the same time golds value has increased in Dollars over 3,000%. Something to consider.

Ammo, however, is always a good hedge as long as the government doesn't confiscate it.... (same for PMs).
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Old December 30, 2019, 21:12   #37
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Have you seen the run up of Palladium. Story: before we got married my wife asked me what I wanted for my birthday. I said a rare metal tiebar. She asked what was that and I gave her a number for a good friend in Canada who was a chemist for one on the mining firms. Anyway, for my birthday I got a 2oz Palladium tie bar trimmed with fuzed gold. The bar was laser machined and the gold ion beam laid in. She said it cost her almost $300.00.
She then asked for her birthday a set of rare metal ear rings. She got 2 earrings made of 1 oz platnium bars bent around black perals ( That was an engineering feat). Things one does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vN0xMawsPo
Palladium is going to be interesting if the hydrogen technology takes off.
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Old January 04, 2020, 16:51   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bawana jim View Post


Ya I would not take gold on trade, don't know if it's real.

No really, what will you do if nobody takes your PMs in trade?
Acid test determines purity of gold and is fast and oh so super easy to do.
I'll take that gold, thank you.
Trading requires finding acceptable terms for both parties. Don't want gold? How about some tobacco or some whiskey? Bic lighter?

Duh.
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Old January 04, 2020, 17:44   #39
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Problem with PMs is the buy and sell spread. It's huge in some cases. I would rather have gold than lots of idle cash. But I don't have lots of idle cash. Any cash I have is basically a buffer in case of an emergency where I will need cash quickly.

Ammo OTOH is something that is always at risk of being limited. A 5-10 year minimum supply is my thoughts. Though 1/3 of my 308 is components. Think of the number of guns you have versus dividing the rounds you have for each caliber. That way when you're stocked up, you don't get prone to freaking out when 2013 happens again. I was in a gun store and they were selling 10 rounds of steel case combloc 556 for $10.
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