The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > News & Political Discussion > Police Issues

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 16, 2019, 21:30   #51
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 9,056
So if someone did fire back at popo for killing innocent relative in their own like in the story, would it be self defense?
0302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2019, 21:33   #52
Jaxxas
Don't Tread On Me!
Bronze Contributor
 
Jaxxas's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 34933
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 6,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0302 View Post
So if someone did fire back at popo for killing innocent relative in their own like in the story, would it be self defense?
Yep, were I on the jury!
__________________
“I'm not sure what part of the internet sent you to us, but I expect it had something to do with gravity. You have not reached your point of equilibrium." W.E.G.

A golf course is a complete waste of a good rifle range. Jarhead
Jaxxas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2019, 22:21   #53
Riversidesports
keeping it cool
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxxas View Post
Yep, were I on the jury!
I'm thinking in England it was permissible to spy, even dump part of a Stirling mag, blast some one with a L1 in Belfast
That's Gman's background
Complete Suppression.
It wasn't ever America was it

He's a bit jaded due to origin, it's understandable
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 09:45   #54
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
I'm thinking in England it was permissible to spy, even dump part of a Stirling mag, blast some one with a L1 in Belfast
That's Gman's background
Complete Suppression.
It wasn't ever America was it

He's a bit jaded due to origin, it's understandable
What? GMAN grew up in Belfast?

I don't think he's a bad guy even though we got into a little here, and sure I disagree with some of the stuff he says. From what he posts he sounds like he tries to do the right things in his profession.

I always knew Northern Ireland was a cluster-f. I saw that move " '71 " and if that's at all accurate WOW what a train wreck horrible place that must have been.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 10:13   #55
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 20,529
https://nypost.com/2019/10/17/cop-wh...welfare-check/


If this report is correct,,,,answers the question why the officer showed up with his firearm out and at the ready..................
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 10:19   #56
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post
https://nypost.com/2019/10/17/cop-wh...welfare-check/


If this report is correct,,,,answers the question why the officer showed up with his firearm out and at the ready..................
It sounds like other LEOs and 'experts' are trying to reframe the situation for the pending court case to cast the officer's actions in a better light.

Quote:
"Neighbor James Smith, 62, who made the original call to a non-emergency police number to request a check-up on Jefferson, told The Fort Worth Star-Telegram he “never mentioned” anything about a burglary.

“All they had to do was come and make sure that they were OK,” Smith told the paper."
But we have 'experts' and 'analysts' trying to shift away from the basic facts provided by the man who made the call.

Quote:
“The information came from the neighbor to the call-takers and while it was relayed to the dispatch, it was determined to be an open structure call,” Fort Worth interim Police Chief Ed Kraus told reporters on Tuesday, according to the network.

Experts told the outlet that the “open structure” classification escalated the situation beyond a welfare check — impacting the way the officers responded. Those types of calls could refer to a burglary or another crime, according to the report
Sorry this just sounds like some damage control.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 10:47   #57
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 20,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
It sounds like other LEOs and 'experts' are trying to reframe the situation for the pending court case to cast the officer's actions in a better light.



But we have 'experts' and 'analysts' trying to shift away from the basic facts provided by the man who made the call.



Sorry this just sounds like some damage control.
Or,,,just the truth????

Folks need to give this a little time for everything to come out in the open.

The lady is dead,,,nothing will change that,,,so no rush to judgement with the officer is needed,,,and with the track record of past events that blew up,,,were horrible on initial reports,,,then turned out to be nothing burgers,,,quiet and steady might be the way to go with this one.

Get all the information,,,sit down and go over everything,,calmly,,,then make some decisions.

Someone wrote once,,,,better to let 99 guilty go free,,than to convict one innocent man.

The lady is dead,,,,now figure out,,,did the officer REALLY do something bad???
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 11:15   #58
J308
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 7448
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post
Or,,,just the truth????


The lady is dead,,,,now figure out,,,did the officer REALLY do something bad???
Yes, yes he did.

Put yourself in her position. I think if I observed someone sneaking through my yard unnannounced at night having opened a gate to do so, I would have a bead drawn on them. And if they turned their light on me and yelled show me your hands, I would light them up like a homeowner in a life or death situation. Would you not?
J308 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 16:56   #59
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post
Or,,,just the truth????

Folks need to give this a little time for everything to come out in the open.

The lady is dead,,,nothing will change that,,,so no rush to judgement with the officer is needed,,,and with the track record of past events that blew up,,,were horrible on initial reports,,,then turned out to be nothing burgers,,,quiet and steady might be the way to go with this one.

Get all the information,,,sit down and go over everything,,calmly,,,then make some decisions.

Someone wrote once,,,,better to let 99 guilty go free,,than to convict one innocent man.

The lady is dead,,,,now figure out,,,did the officer REALLY do something bad???
gotta say YES he really did do something bad.

They got on scene, there were no open doors. nobody screaming for help. no blood trails. no smashed out windows. no reason to believe a crime was in progress or had been committed.

The caller said it himself, again:
Quote:
"Neighbor James Smith, 62, who made the original call to a non-emergency police number to request a check-up on Jefferson, told The Fort Worth Star-Telegram he “never mentioned” anything about a burglary.
and the fact that he called a Non-Emergency number as well.

No reason for him to have his gun out and in hand.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 17:06   #60
7.62FMJ
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 2274
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 70
So call in welfare checks for those annoying neighbors.
7.62FMJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 19:10   #61
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 20,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
gotta say YES he really did do something bad.

They got on scene, there were no open doors. nobody screaming for help. no blood trails. no smashed out windows. no reason to believe a crime was in progress or had been committed.

The caller said it himself, again:


and the fact that he called a Non-Emergency number as well.

No reason for him to have his gun out and in hand.

Richard Jewel was guilty as sin too,,,,until he turned out to be a hero,,,and then that police officer in Ferguson,,,,,oh wait,,,,,,,,I seem to remember everyone believe all them eyewitness reports too,,,,until that was proven a damnable lie.

I just can't believe folks around here believing press reports and eyewitness reports,,,,,as if people don;t lie,,,often,,,,and early.............and later on are proven to have simply lied.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 21:24   #62
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post
Richard Jewel was guilty as sin too,,,,until he turned out to be a hero,,,and then that police officer in Ferguson,,,,,oh wait,,,,,,,,I seem to remember everyone believe all them eyewitness reports too,,,,until that was proven a damnable lie.

I just can't believe folks around here believing press reports and eyewitness reports,,,,,as if people don;t lie,,,often,,,,and early.............and later on are proven to have simply lied.
Sorry but I don't think that's much of a comparison.

He was not witnessed by anyone actually making, building, or planting a bomb. He witnessed in the area by many because he was there walking around an working. Oh, and no video of him making, planting, or detonating a bomb. FBI was told they needed a scapegoat and the chunky middle age white guy fit the profile the FBI used at the time, so they picked him when they couldn't find any evidence.

We have the report from the man who called it in. I am sure the non-emergency line is also a recorded line. So we'll see if this guy is a flat out liar and said something different.

We have the video which shows the cop on the scene, with the doors to the home all CLOSED.

We have the video of him shooting the resident through the window while she was legally in her own home, acting in a legal fashion.

We have the audio of him shouting unlawful commands and firing through the window about .75 seconds later.

So - no real comparison to the Richard Jewell case. Clint Eastwood has a moving coming out soon about that case I heard.

Ferguson - no video evidence. Plus a whole lot of people called bullshit on that one right away. Oh plus that guy was not in his home and the cop wasn't on welfare check.

Sorry there's just way too much evidence at this point that shows the officer was badly in the wrong here on a few levels.

Maybe it will come out the guy who made the call was trying to SWAT a neighbor who was fuggin his wife or something and the call will show something totally different. Not holding my breath on it though.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 21:25   #63
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.62FMJ View Post
So call in welfare checks for those annoying neighbors.
If these cases go unpunished, its the new legal way to SWAT people to death.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2019, 22:05   #64
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 20,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Sorry but I don't think that's much of a comparison.

He was not witnessed by anyone actually making, building, or planting a bomb. He witnessed in the area by many because he was there walking around an working. Oh, and no video of him making, planting, or detonating a bomb. FBI was told they needed a scapegoat and the chunky middle age white guy fit the profile the FBI used at the time, so they picked him when they couldn't find any evidence.

We have the report from the man who called it in. I am sure the non-emergency line is also a recorded line. So we'll see if this guy is a flat out liar and said something different.

We have the video which shows the cop on the scene, with the doors to the home all CLOSED.

We have the video of him shooting the resident through the window while she was legally in her own home, acting in a legal fashion.

We have the audio of him shouting unlawful commands and firing through the window about .75 seconds later.

So - no real comparison to the Richard Jewell case. Clint Eastwood has a moving coming out soon about that case I heard.

Ferguson - no video evidence. Plus a whole lot of people called bullshit on that one right away. Oh plus that guy was not in his home and the cop wasn't on welfare check.

Sorry there's just way too much evidence at this point that shows the officer was badly in the wrong here on a few levels.

Maybe it will come out the guy who made the call was trying to SWAT a neighbor who was fuggin his wife or something and the call will show something totally different. Not holding my breath on it though.
Well,,hell then,,,with all of that,,,why allow the officer to even present his side of the story,,,just take him out and hang him????

We;ll just ignore,,,innocent until proven guilty.

If you ever have ten people accuse you of anything,,,we'll just hang you,,,no reason to hear from you or to allow any defense of your actions,,,just get a rope and be done with it,,,,,,,,,,,why,,,,,,,because ten people would never be confused,,wrong,,telling a lie,,pushed by politics or G-D forbide,,race of accused victim,,,,yep,,,,just get a rope.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 07:06   #65
Buddy Lee
Registered
 
Buddy Lee's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 19204
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Here. Now... maybe.
Posts: 546
Two news reports that should be taken into consideration:



The first may explain the final instant of Officer Dean's actions.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Vi...563141541.html

Quote:
An arrest warrant obtained Tuesday quoted the Jefferson's 8-year-old nephew as saying his aunt "heard noises coming from outside, and she took her handgun from her purse. The boy said his aunt "raised her handgun, pointed it toward the window" and "was shot and fell to the ground."
This does not, IMHO, excuse what the officer did. But, as yellowhand said all the facts should be known.



The second addresses what I wrote in my first post of this thread.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...lures-n1067801

Quote:
LaRhonda Young, a former Fort Worth police officer from 1992 to 2004 who had once patrolled that neighborhood, said if time permits, officers must adequately scope out a scene before knocking on a door and potentially startling someone.

Young said sensory clues, such as the lights being on inside and it being one of the first cool nights in Fort Worth in days, would be signs to assume a burglary wasn't taking place. Walking around the backyard of someone's home in the dark would only make the situation more fraught, she said.

"I can understand that this is an open structure call and you need to take precaution, but it's just that — take precaution," Young said. "Take in your surroundings."


Both articles are worth reading in full as I believe they provide a well rounded presentation of not only the incident itself, but the backdrop of why it may have happened.

I am not trying to exonerate officer Dean in the slightest. A court of law will decide his fate. But, I think we need to realize that there are deeper issues needing to be addressed well beyond any criminal culpability in this case.

Buddy Lee
__________________
When in doubt about reality, look for Rod Serling.

Last edited by Buddy Lee; October 18, 2019 at 07:52.
Buddy Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 09:18   #66
7.62FMJ
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 2274
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
If these cases go unpunished, its the new legal way to SWAT people to death.
That was my point. Obviously with trigger happy police and anyone seen with a firearm, even in their own home- can now be murdered by the state without repercussions.
7.62FMJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 19:59   #67
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 7,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Sorry but I don't think that's much of a comparison.

He was not witnessed by anyone actually making, building, or planting a bomb. He witnessed in the area by many because he was there walking around an working. Oh, and no video of him making, planting, or detonating a bomb. FBI was told they needed a scapegoat and the chunky middle age white guy fit the profile the FBI used at the time, so they picked him when they couldn't find any evidence.

We have the report from the man who called it in. I am sure the non-emergency line is also a recorded line. So we'll see if this guy is a flat out liar and said something different.

We have the video which shows the cop on the scene, with the doors to the home all CLOSED.

We have the video of him shooting the resident through the window while she was legally in her own home, acting in a legal fashion.

We have the audio of him shouting unlawful commands and firing through the window about .75 seconds later.

So - no real comparison to the Richard Jewell case. Clint Eastwood has a moving coming out soon about that case I heard.

Ferguson - no video evidence. Plus a whole lot of people called bullshit on that one right away. Oh plus that guy was not in his home and the cop wasn't on welfare check.

Sorry there's just way too much evidence at this point that shows the officer was badly in the wrong here on a few levels.

Maybe it will come out the guy who made the call was trying to SWAT a neighbor who was fuggin his wife or something and the call will show something totally different. Not holding my breath on it though.
Sorry dude, but as before (and which you have now admitted) you are wrong again. The front door is WIDE open as you can see in the video.

I am NOT saying this officer did the right thing in shooting this woman. I am also a firearms instructor and use of force investigator, qualified to investigate police use of force and specifically officer involved shootings. I used this video this morning while training 12 cadets in our academy firearms program.

The lead instructor and I covered several points:

1. Yes, they were sent on an open structure call rather than a simple welfare check. Dispatch assigns the type of call for the officer rather than the caller; caller said door was open, wanted a check on the occupant. Dispatch says its an open structure. This does add stress to the call.

2. Arrive on scene with back up and check the front door which is open. Look inside; has the door been forced open or kicked in? If not, are there any signs of the house being burgled? If not, can you hear anything disturbing like screams, crying or similar? If not, can you see any blood or anything that might indicate something is amiss? If ANYTHING like the above is present, 2 cops ain't enough to secure the residence. You need to call for backup then wait for them. Once they are present, send units to the back and make an announcement at the front door. Homeowner shows up, explain what happened and move on. If in doubt, SLOW down.

3. Once you have worked through above checklist and haven't seen, heard or discovered anything untoward, you work through the list of other possibilities; wind blew the door open, occupant is looking for dog, cat got out, homeowner is hot, letting cool air in and so on. Then you knock and announce who you are. Homeowner comes to door, all is well.

4. Officer didn't go there intending to kill anyone. He went there to help his community and do the right thing. He FAILED. He made a mistake, a deadly, horrible, terrible and tragic mistake but it wasn't murder. Murder requires mens rea or the "guilty mind" or the premeditated determination to take another person's life. That's NOT what happened.

5. It is clear he is startled, out of control and unable to cope under stress. He is what is commonly referred to as a "fear biter" in the dog and Reality Based Training (RBT) world.

Quote:
A fear biter is not generally a fierce dog but rather an extremely scared dog. This type of dog biting happens when a fearful or panicked dog has no other way to escape or express himself
I run the RBT program for my agency and think it is the most valuable tool, nay, predictor of future performance of cops under stress. In RBT, we attempt to put officers and deputies under stress by placing them in situations where they are forced to make decisions which may be life threatening within a compressed time frame. We use role players to simulate real life scenarios that place the cadets and officers under pressure. Some scenarios use air soft or marking cartridge rounds (often called by the generic name of Simunitions) to stress them to the point of using deadly force but not all do. Of course, the cops are always armed but not every scenario requires them to use deadly force.

I am dedicated to RBT because unlike any other kind of training, it most accurately simulates situations cops can find themselves in and with the addition of the threat of being "shot," it builds pressure like no other training can. If the cadet/officer folds under this kind of pressure, they will invariably do so on the street. I am working to have a couple of fairly simple RBT scenarios built into the testing/hiring process for my agency. Hopefully, I will get my way and we will eliminate potential fear biters from being hired. I can train anyone to write citations do lots of other shit cops do but when circumstances like this arise, I need people who aren't fear biters.

The other advantage of RBT is it allows cops to make mistakes in training, be given the chance to fix it and replay the scenario with the correct outcome. This way, they have a frame of reference should they run into something similar in the future. This cop clearly had no frame of reference; he saw someone pointing a gun at him, gave them a command but no time to react to it and acted out of fear. I seriously doubt he had been through a good, realistic RBT program at any time. He is probably going to go to jail but what he did wasn't murder. Was he negligent? Yep but not premeditated and that's the difference.

Sorry for the wall of text, I didn't intend to go all Huey on you guys but some stuff is complicated and requires more than a couple of sound bites.
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 20:01   #68
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 7,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.62FMJ View Post
That was my point. Obviously with trigger happy police and anyone seen with a firearm, even in their own home- can now be murdered by the state without repercussions.
He lost his job, was charged with murder and is facing an investigation by the Federal govt goons; what else do you want to happen to him? Publicly executed?
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 20:59   #69
jam762
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 68968
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: OHIO
Posts: 1,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
He lost his job, was charged with murder and is facing an investigation by the Federal govt goons; what else do you want to happen to him? Publicly executed?
The fact that he will have to live with his decisions possibly in the pen with others that would love to get their hands on him is enough for me. He will live in fear for the next number of years(if he survives). If he would’ve been self conscious, properly trained, and identified himself we wouldn’t be talking about this.
jam762 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 21:01   #70
Jaxxas
Don't Tread On Me!
Bronze Contributor
 
Jaxxas's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 34933
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 6,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
He lost his job, was charged with murder and is facing an investigation by the Federal govt goons; what else do you want to happen to him? Publicly executed?
Almost true but then we know how you are allowed/encouraged to 'lie'! He QUIT his job! WHY? No se! Seemingly a big difference....?


YMMV
__________________
“I'm not sure what part of the internet sent you to us, but I expect it had something to do with gravity. You have not reached your point of equilibrium." W.E.G.

A golf course is a complete waste of a good rifle range. Jarhead
Jaxxas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 21:02   #71
Riversidesports
keeping it cool
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
Sorry dude, but as before (and which you have now admitted) you are wrong again. The front door is WIDE open as you can see in the video.

I am NOT saying this officer did the right thing in shooting this woman. I am also a firearms instructor and use of force investigator, qualified to investigate police use of force and specifically officer involved shootings. I used this video this morning while training 12 cadets in our academy firearms program.

The lead instructor and I covered several points:

1. Yes, they were sent on an open structure call rather than a simple welfare check. Dispatch assigns the type of call for the officer rather than the caller; caller said door was open, wanted a check on the occupant. Dispatch says its an open structure. This does add stress to the call.

2. Arrive on scene with back up and check the front door which is open. Look inside; has the door been forced open or kicked in? If not, are there any signs of the house being burgled? If not, can you hear anything disturbing like screams, crying or similar? If not, can you see any blood or anything that might indicate something is amiss? If ANYTHING like the above is present, 2 cops ain't enough to secure the residence. You need to call for backup then wait for them. Once they are present, send units to the back and make an announcement at the front door. Homeowner shows up, explain what happened and move on. If in doubt, SLOW down.

3. Once you have worked through above checklist and haven't seen, heard or discovered anything untoward, you work through the list of other possibilities; wind blew the door open, occupant is looking for dog, cat got out, homeowner is hot, letting cool air in and so on. Then you knock and announce who you are. Homeowner comes to door, all is well.

4. Officer didn't go there intending to kill anyone. He went there to help his community and do the right thing. He FAILED. He made a mistake, a deadly, horrible, terrible and tragic mistake but it wasn't murder. Murder requires mens rea or the "guilty mind" or the premeditated determination to take another person's life. That's NOT what happened.

5. It is clear he is startled, out of control and unable to cope under stress. He is what is commonly referred to as a "fear biter" in the dog and Reality Based Training (RBT) world.



I run the RBT program for my agency and think it is the most valuable tool, nay, predictor of future performance of cops under stress. In RBT, we attempt to put officers and deputies under stress by placing them in situations where they are forced to make decisions which may be life threatening within a compressed time frame. We use role players to simulate real life scenarios that place the cadets and officers under pressure. Some scenarios use air soft or marking cartridge rounds (often called by the generic name of Simunitions) to stress them to the point of using deadly force but not all do. Of course, the cops are always armed but not every scenario requires them to use deadly force.

I am dedicated to RBT because unlike any other kind of training, it most accurately simulates situations cops can find themselves in and with the addition of the threat of being "shot," it builds pressure like no other training can. If the cadet/officer folds under this kind of pressure, they will invariably do so on the street. I am working to have a couple of fairly simple RBT scenarios built into the testing/hiring process for my agency. Hopefully, I will get my way and we will eliminate potential fear biters from being hired. I can train anyone to write citations do lots of other shit cops do but when circumstances like this arise, I need people who aren't fear biters.

The other advantage of RBT is it allows cops to make mistakes in training, be given the chance to fix it and replay the scenario with the correct outcome. This way, they have a frame of reference should they run into something similar in the future. This cop clearly had no frame of reference; he saw someone pointing a gun at him, gave them a command but no time to react to it and acted out of fear. I seriously doubt he had been through a good, realistic RBT program at any time. He is probably going to go to jail but what he did wasn't murder. Was he negligent? Yep but not premeditated and that's the difference.

Sorry for the wall of text, I didn't intend to go all Huey on you guys but some stuff is complicated and requires more than a couple of sound bites.
Look Ironman, you are not no SuperHero
some asshat calling on an open door on a home across the street really don't run up into major Threat management situation does it where some moron stalks the perimeter, ready killer within the curtilage of the residence

You and I know you don't do that bullshit
Gal had a legal firearm, was aware of the stalking outside the home and was shot dead by some idiot window peeping pigger
Legally he's toasted, he violated a ton of shit G
but yeah he went home at the end of shift didn't he

Are you actually stating it's all okay for piggers to play peeping tom, that if they then see an armed homeowner to then shoot them dead ?

this isn't Belfast Asshat
keep at this though it likely becomes such a shitty thing with many more dead piggers
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 21:46   #72
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
Sorry dude, but as before (and which you have now admitted) you are wrong again. The front door is WIDE open as you can see in the video.

I am NOT saying this officer did the right thing in shooting this woman. I am also a firearms instructor and use of force investigator, qualified to investigate police use of force and specifically officer involved shootings. I used this video this morning while training 12 cadets in our academy firearms program.

The lead instructor and I covered several points:

1. Yes, they were sent on an open structure call rather than a simple welfare check. Dispatch assigns the type of call for the officer rather than the caller; caller said door was open, wanted a check on the occupant. Dispatch says its an open structure. This does add stress to the call.

2. Arrive on scene with back up and check the front door which is open. Look inside; has the door been forced open or kicked in? If not, are there any signs of the house being burgled? If not, can you hear anything disturbing like screams, crying or similar? If not, can you see any blood or anything that might indicate something is amiss? If ANYTHING like the above is present, 2 cops ain't enough to secure the residence. You need to call for backup then wait for them. Once they are present, send units to the back and make an announcement at the front door. Homeowner shows up, explain what happened and move on. If in doubt, SLOW down.

3. Once you have worked through above checklist and haven't seen, heard or discovered anything untoward, you work through the list of other possibilities; wind blew the door open, occupant is looking for dog, cat got out, homeowner is hot, letting cool air in and so on. Then you knock and announce who you are. Homeowner comes to door, all is well.

4. Officer didn't go there intending to kill anyone. He went there to help his community and do the right thing. He FAILED. He made a mistake, a deadly, horrible, terrible and tragic mistake but it wasn't murder. Murder requires mens rea or the "guilty mind" or the premeditated determination to take another person's life. That's NOT what happened.

5. It is clear he is startled, out of control and unable to cope under stress. He is what is commonly referred to as a "fear biter" in the dog and Reality Based Training (RBT) world.



I run the RBT program for my agency and think it is the most valuable tool, nay, predictor of future performance of cops under stress. In RBT, we attempt to put officers and deputies under stress by placing them in situations where they are forced to make decisions which may be life threatening within a compressed time frame. We use role players to simulate real life scenarios that place the cadets and officers under pressure. Some scenarios use air soft or marking cartridge rounds (often called by the generic name of Simunitions) to stress them to the point of using deadly force but not all do. Of course, the cops are always armed but not every scenario requires them to use deadly force.

I am dedicated to RBT because unlike any other kind of training, it most accurately simulates situations cops can find themselves in and with the addition of the threat of being "shot," it builds pressure like no other training can. If the cadet/officer folds under this kind of pressure, they will invariably do so on the street. I am working to have a couple of fairly simple RBT scenarios built into the testing/hiring process for my agency. Hopefully, I will get my way and we will eliminate potential fear biters from being hired. I can train anyone to write citations do lots of other shit cops do but when circumstances like this arise, I need people who aren't fear biters.

The other advantage of RBT is it allows cops to make mistakes in training, be given the chance to fix it and replay the scenario with the correct outcome. This way, they have a frame of reference should they run into something similar in the future. This cop clearly had no frame of reference; he saw someone pointing a gun at him, gave them a command but no time to react to it and acted out of fear. I seriously doubt he had been through a good, realistic RBT program at any time. He is probably going to go to jail but what he did wasn't murder. Was he negligent? Yep but not premeditated and that's the difference.

Sorry for the wall of text, I didn't intend to go all Huey on you guys but some stuff is complicated and requires more than a couple of sound bites.
The screen door was closed. Screen door = door.

Time 20-24 seconds we see the main door is open but the screen door is closed.

Please explain how it's open.

at about 33 seconds we see another door, again a screen door, again it's closed.

Please explain or illustrate where you see the open door.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 21:49   #73
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
He lost his job, was charged with murder and is facing an investigation by the Federal govt goons; what else do you want to happen to him? Publicly executed?
wait, why are the Federal Agents 'goons' ?


as aside, if you're implying the Feds investigating this is needless and outside their charged duties, I'd agree with you there.

Let the department, the prosecutor, and the State Police investigate it.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 21:53   #74
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
Look Ironman, you are not no SuperHero
some asshat calling on an open door on a home across the street really don't run up into major Threat management situation does it where some moron stalks the perimeter, ready killer within the curtilage of the residence

You and I know you don't do that bullshit
Gal had a legal firearm, was aware of the stalking outside the home and was shot dead by some idiot window peeping pigger
Legally he's toasted, he violated a ton of shit G
but yeah he went home at the end of shift didn't he

Are you actually stating it's all okay for piggers to play peeping tom, that if they then see an armed homeowner to then shoot them dead ?

this isn't Belfast Asshat
keep at this though it likely becomes such a shitty thing with many more dead piggers
man and that's the problem. Most cops are good. Most do the right things. but this stuff continues to happen and is not addressed, people aren't going to give the benefit of the doubt or benefit of assuming good intentions anymore. WE have a right to go home safe at the end of the night too. Coppers nationwide need to get this under control. there's already enough hatred out there (largely unwarranted and media driven) as there is. This chit ain't helping. it's indefensible.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2019, 23:07   #75
Riversidesports
keeping it cool
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
man and that's the problem. Most cops are good. Most do the right things. but this stuff continues to happen and is not addressed, people aren't going to give the benefit of the doubt or benefit of assuming good intentions anymore. WE have a right to go home safe at the end of the night too. Coppers nationwide need to get this under control. there's already enough hatred out there (largely unwarranted and media driven) as there is. This chit ain't helping. it's indefensible.
As I see it
extremely poor training

Again pound and yell up front
police have no business acting like potential back yard perps and stalkers
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 00:06   #76
old_spambo
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 75387
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Nowhere/OR
Posts: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
Color me bothered by your opinion, not. I NEVER said the guy was justified for firing through a window. He's been charged, resigned and his worthless, politically motivated chief has tossed him under the bus by referring him to the DOJ/FBI for "civil rights violations" whatever the fcuk that means.
I am sick and tired of cops sneaking around in the middle of the night
on someone's private property. And walking through an open door into
the house..... WTH don't they announce themselves as police? WTH is a
person supposed to think?

Some MF'er sneaking in my house gets a load of buckshot center mass.
These guys are nothing more than home invaders with badges.

Our tax dollars at work.

Old_spambo
old_spambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 01:11   #77
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 7,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
Look Ironman, you are not no SuperHero
some asshat calling on an open door on a home across the street really don't run up into major Threat management situation does it where some moron stalks the perimeter, ready killer within the curtilage of the residence

You and I know you don't do that bullshit
Gal had a legal firearm, was aware of the stalking outside the home and was shot dead by some idiot window peeping pigger
Legally he's toasted, he violated a ton of shit G
but yeah he went home at the end of shift didn't he

Are you actually stating it's all okay for piggers to play peeping tom, that if they then see an armed homeowner to then shoot them dead ?

this isn't Belfast Asshat
keep at this though it likely becomes such a shitty thing with many more dead piggers
Don't post when you're toasted. Keep going and you'll likely pick up another ban you dumb fcuk.
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 01:13   #78
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 7,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
The screen door was closed. Screen door = door.

Time 20-24 seconds we see the main door is open but the screen door is closed.

Please explain how it's open.

at about 33 seconds we see another door, again a screen door, again it's closed.

Please explain or illustrate where you see the open door.
The main door to the residence is wide open, with a clear view into the house through the screen door. You already had to eat crow with the accusation of the cop entering the house. The cops got called because the front door was wide open...
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 01:17   #79
Andy the Aussie
Dinosaur
Bronze Contributor
 
Andy the Aussie's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 216
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Down Under
Posts: 16,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
I am working to have a couple of fairly simple RBT scenarios built into the testing/hiring process for my agency.
..... I was in OR in 2001 visiting with friends and one of their larger local Department's was recruiting. They used acted scenarios (out here your RBT is SBT Scenario Based Training) as part of their hiring process, I was actually playing a character in several of their scenarios (apparently a strong foreign accent and unusual greeting throws some ). Waaaaay back in 1992 scenarios were part of the recruitment process here. I have been on both sides of them and they are an excellent way to sort the wheat from the chaff !!!

SBT is now a core activity for most agencies out here.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by GOVT1911
You could do some searching and find a nice TLC and do the same thing, still saving a bunch of $$ and end up with a nice, comfortable CAPABLE rig...
(Jiminy Christmas, did I just recommend a 'yota?!!??)
Andy the Aussie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 01:28   #80
Right Side Up
Registered
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,943
So having your front door open at night is a criminal act these days?

And the police have a right to go Rambo on the occupants?
Right Side Up is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 06:25   #81
Riversidesports
keeping it cool
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
Don't post when you're toasted. Keep going and you'll likely pick up another ban you dumb fcuk.
Hardly "toasted"
mostly tired of idiot excuses for out of line conduct

Here's the facts as known:

Neighbor cross the street sees the door open, calls in for a basic welfare check
wasn't even a 911 emergency call

Two Officers arrive on scene, one decides to go skulking about around the home playing window peeper in the curtilage of that residence

Gal alerts to the porker who probably was bumping up against the home with a flash light, retrieves her sidearm, Cop shoots her dead bang within a couple seconds of screaming at her to drop her piece while never identifying himself as LE

Nobody disputes any part of that, it's real clear from the body cam footage

Are you actually claiming it's at all proper on a non emergency Welfare call for an Officer to be within the residential curtilage peering in windows ?
That's the shit invasion of privacy lawsuits are made of dipshit
Further, that it's kosher to light up someone in a residence when you are already playing peeping Tom because you see what may or may not be a firearm ?

Again shout out, beat on the screen door, shit pull the squad car up in the front yard and hit the emergency strobes and bullhorn, whatever you damn' Road Ninja tax addict, anything other than becoming a yard prowler in uniform and shooting somebody up in their own home

Full on retard part over this was it was all over a door being open
Screen door was closed, main door was open
How many times have you left your own doors open ?
I do it all the time at night when it's warm during the day to cool down the home.

Neighbor has to be feeling like a serious turd
He expected an Officer to show up, just check that things were copasetic
instead Deputy Fife had to go all Street Ninja backyard prowler

I honestly don't know that many LEOs that would do shit this way particularly on this kind of call
Okay, so how would you handle this one Belfast Barney ?
it's a serious question...

Crap like this makes me almost want to lay out Conibear Beaver traps within the curtilage of my own home, I have a good two dozen in the shed
dig in a foot deep hole, they would take some peeping asshole right at the knee and crush it

No worries though, I'd rather just keep the curtains closed

anyways, we all know a few indisputable facts regarding what occurred.
personally, I can't even imagine what mitigating factors there could be claimed in this entire matter
However, that's just my opinion
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 11:31   #82
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
The main door to the residence is wide open, with a clear view into the house through the screen door. You already had to eat crow with the accusation of the cop entering the house. The cops got called because the front door was wide open...
Nah chief, I said the door to the home was closed. Screen Door = Door. Screen Door = Closed = Closed Door. A door is a method of controlling entry. When it's closed, entry is barred. Doesn't matter if it's a screen door or not. The screen door is a door to the home, you can't enter that way without opening it or busting through it. Hence the door to the home is closed. There are multiple doors. one was open but the one preceding it was closed. Door is closed.

Tell me with your knowledge of criminal codes and such, if a burglar breaks down a solid door to illegally gain entry to a home, is that breaking and entering?

If a burglar breaks down a screen door to illegally gain entry to a home, is that breaking and entering?

Does the law distinguish between a closed screen door and a panel door for such purposes?

How is a structure an Open Structure if there is a closed door or closed window at each possible access/entry point?

Please explain.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 12:14   #83
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 7,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
Hardly "toasted"
mostly tired of idiot excuses for out of line conduct

Here's the facts as known:

Neighbor cross the street sees the door open, calls in for a basic welfare check
wasn't even a 911 emergency call

Two Officers arrive on scene, one decides to go skulking about around the home playing window peeper in the curtilage of that residence

Gal alerts to the porker who probably was bumping up against the home with a flash light, retrieves her sidearm, Cop shoots her dead bang within a couple seconds of screaming at her to drop her piece while never identifying himself as LE

Nobody disputes any part of that, it's real clear from the body cam footage

Are you actually claiming it's at all proper on a non emergency Welfare call for an Officer to be within the residential curtilage peering in windows ?
That's the shit invasion of privacy lawsuits are made of dipshit
Further, that it's kosher to light up someone in a residence when you are already playing peeping Tom because you see what may or may not be a firearm ?

Again shout out, beat on the screen door, shit pull the squad car up in the front yard and hit the emergency strobes and bullhorn, whatever you damn' Road Ninja tax addict, anything other than becoming a yard prowler in uniform and shooting somebody up in their own home

Full on retard part over this was it was all over a door being open
Screen door was closed, main door was open
How many times have you left your own doors open ?
I do it all the time at night when it's warm during the day to cool down the home.

Neighbor has to be feeling like a serious turd
He expected an Officer to show up, just check that things were copasetic
instead Deputy Fife had to go all Street Ninja backyard prowler

I honestly don't know that many LEOs that would do shit this way particularly on this kind of call
Okay, so how would you handle this one Belfast Barney ?
it's a serious question...

Crap like this makes me almost want to lay out Conibear Beaver traps within the curtilage of my own home, I have a good two dozen in the shed
dig in a foot deep hole, they would take some peeping asshole right at the knee and crush it

No worries though, I'd rather just keep the curtains closed

anyways, we all know a few indisputable facts regarding what occurred.
personally, I can't even imagine what mitigating factors there could be claimed in this entire matter
However, that's just my opinion
I already laid out the way it should have been handled TWICE numb nuts or can't you read? Here's the Cliff notes version for you: if he didn't see any signs of suspicious activity (no kicked in door, no ransacked house, no screams, no blood etc) he should have knocked and announced who he was. No problem. In the absence of the homeowner coming to the door, he could have asked dispatch to locate a phone number for her or made contact with the neighbor. Not hard but you seem to want to ascribe actions or comments to me I have never made. Fairly typical for you, the legend in your own mind...

I have NEVER said this guy did things right nor excused his actions. In fact, in class yesterday, he came in for harsh criticism from me and other experienced instructors because of what he did. Is that clear enough or do I need to break out crayons for you?
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 12:30   #84
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 7,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Nah chief, I said the door to the home was closed. Screen Door = Door. Screen Door = Closed = Closed Door. A door is a method of controlling entry. When it's closed, entry is barred. Doesn't matter if it's a screen door or not. The screen door is a door to the home, you can't enter that way without opening it or busting through it. Hence the door to the home is closed. There are multiple doors. one was open but the one preceding it was closed. Door is closed.

Tell me with your knowledge of criminal codes and such, if a burglar breaks down a solid door to illegally gain entry to a home, is that breaking and entering?

If a burglar breaks down a screen door to illegally gain entry to a home, is that breaking and entering?

Does the law distinguish between a closed screen door and a panel door for such purposes?

How is a structure an Open Structure if there is a closed door or closed window at each possible access/entry point?

Please explain.
Sigh. Apparently, commonsense has deserted you in your vain attempt to justify your bias. The neighbor instituted this incident by calling 911 to report his neighbor's door was OPEN. Not me, not you, not the cops, a neighbor. Yes, the screen door was closed but the main entrance door was wide open, such that the neighbor was concerned for the welfare of the occupants.

The dispatcher, a person sitting in a darkened room several miles from the incident, with no first hand knowledge of the situation, heard the neighbor say the front door was open and he was concerned for the occupants. That dispatcher, not the neighbor, not the cops but the dispatcher, classified the call as an open structure call. The cops have a responsibility to read the computer aided dispatch (CAD) card to get all the details the call taker put into the card prior to arriving on scene but many don't get much past the first few lines while driving to the location.Is that right? Nope. Do I personally train my rookies to read the whole card? Yes but not everyone does.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but thus far, I'm trying to point out the reality of modern police work based on a significant body of experience and training as well as illustrating the cumulative errors this particular cop made which lead to this tragedy. I have repeatedly stated this cop was wrong, that he was negligent and that his fear probably led him to make a tragic and utterly avoidable mistake in using unjustifiable deadly force. It appears you want to argue over semantics to score some undefinable points. From this point on, you and the rest of the folks who want to continue to argue "man in cop suit bad" can do so on your own. Have a nice day.
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 12:35   #85
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 7,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy the Aussie View Post
..... I was in OR in 2001 visiting with friends and one of their larger local Department's was recruiting. They used acted scenarios (out here your RBT is SBT Scenario Based Training) as part of their hiring process, I was actually playing a character in several of their scenarios (apparently a strong foreign accent and unusual greeting throws some ). Waaaaay back in 1992 scenarios were part of the recruitment process here. I have been on both sides of them and they are an excellent way to sort the wheat from the chaff !!!

SBT is now a core activity for most agencies out here.
The guy who essentially invented RBT and brought it to Aussie SAS is a guy called Ken Murray. He's a Canadian but I don't hold that against him. Ken is a great guy and invented the marking cartridges called Simunitions that General Dynamics now sells. We fight an uphill battle against those who prefer to do things the way they've always been done vs the best practice...
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 14:19   #86
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 20,529
Just a little balance around here.

__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 15:10   #87
Andy the Aussie
Dinosaur
Bronze Contributor
 
Andy the Aussie's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 216
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Down Under
Posts: 16,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
Called Simunitions that General Dynamics now sells. We fight an uphill battle against those who prefer to do things the way they've always been done vs the best practice...
..... Simunitions have been a regular feature of the training environment here since at least as far back as 1997 (that was the first time I saw/used them personally but was aware of them here prior) and they continue to be so. You are correct there is a training issue of "well it worked for me" that does continue to prevail and the "why would I need that" when other options are put forward.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by GOVT1911
You could do some searching and find a nice TLC and do the same thing, still saving a bunch of $$ and end up with a nice, comfortable CAPABLE rig...
(Jiminy Christmas, did I just recommend a 'yota?!!??)
Andy the Aussie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 17:38   #88
Tak
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27291
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United States, Georgia
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
Sigh. Apparently, commonsense has deserted you in your vain attempt to justify your bias. The neighbor instituted this incident by calling 911 to report his neighbor's door was OPEN. Not me, not you, not the cops, a neighbor. Yes, the screen door was closed but the main entrance door was wide open, such that the neighbor was concerned for the welfare of the occupants.

The dispatcher, a person sitting in a darkened room several miles from the incident, with no first hand knowledge of the situation, heard the neighbor say the front door was open and he was concerned for the occupants. That dispatcher, not the neighbor, not the cops but the dispatcher, classified the call as an open structure call. The cops have a responsibility to read the computer aided dispatch (CAD) card to get all the details the call taker put into the card prior to arriving on scene but many don't get much past the first few lines while driving to the location.Is that right? Nope. Do I personally train my rookies to read the whole card? Yes but not everyone does.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but thus far, I'm trying to point out the reality of modern police work based on a significant body of experience and training as well as illustrating the cumulative errors this particular cop made which lead to this tragedy. I have repeatedly stated this cop was wrong, that he was negligent and that his fear probably led him to make a tragic and utterly avoidable mistake in using unjustifiable deadly force. It appears you want to argue over semantics to score some undefinable points. From this point on, you and the rest of the folks who want to continue to argue "man in cop suit bad" can do so on your own. Have a nice day.

It doesn't matter how much bold text you use. The doors were still closed. That was the point.

Its not semantics. 'Open' and 'Closed' mean different things. You said I was wrong about the doors being closed. I pointed out I was right, because the screen door (which is a door) was closed. I was wrong about the cop opening the door (he opened a gate, not a door) and had no problem admitting I was wrong on that. I was right about the doors being closed (again, screen door = door).

Not that my 2 cents matter to you, but I commend you and your department for discussing this case on what to do/what not to do.

This kind of tragedy I believe happens in part due to the jacked up situation Obama has created in this nation. Also because of an escalation in the eagerness to use force by some cops these days, for whatever reason.

Carry on.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19, 2019, 19:03   #89
Right Side Up
Registered
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
I'm not going to comment much outside of that

Thank goodness. Hey called, and wants his longeinded useless posts back.
Right Side Up is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 20, 2019, 19:32   #90
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,758
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
He's a Canadian but I don't hold that against him.
HEY!

Excuse me! I resemble that comment!
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 20, 2019, 19:34   #91
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,758
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
Don't post when you're toasted. Keep going and you'll likely pick up another ban you dumb fcuk.






I’m truly not worthy.
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2019 The FAL Files