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Old January 11, 2020, 22:23   #1
Bug Tussell
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ExCDNsoldierinTX lured me into another AR...

At the north texas shoot in November last year I got to fire a bunch of weapons. ExCDN let me shoot his Brownells M16a1 clone. This was my favorite one. I trained on one and carried one a bunch. When they went to the A2 version I felt that it was a step backwards away from the lighter a1 version.

Shooting ExCDN's boomstick just felt so right. The m4 profiles are a lot handier and more practical but there is just something about the a1 that fits me.
So I got to looking around and found a Brownell's XM16e1 for sale for a good price. Though not the a1 exactly it was close enough for ergonomics and weight to not matter to me. So I violated my gun buying moratorium and had it sent my way.

I hear that the younger M4 soldiers call the a1 and a2 muskets, so be it. Sometimes the old stuff just feels better.
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Old January 11, 2020, 22:26   #2
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If I were starting over in ARs, maybe A1 is all I would have.
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Old January 11, 2020, 22:37   #3
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Bug,,ya showing your age,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,excelle nt judgement,,,,,, concerning M16's....

A1's were about perfect..............
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Old January 12, 2020, 01:03   #4
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Aside from 1/7 twist and A2 handguard/delta ring, the A2 was a step backwards from the M16a1. I would also argue that the forward assist added to the XM/A1 was redundant.... and in fact dangerous if the soldier encountered a squib round. The forward assist could have scrapped after ammo/barrel bore updates.

The gov’t profile barrel barrel wasn’t designed by trigger pullers. If it was, more meat would be at the chamber under than the handguard, rather than forward of the FSB.

A2 rear sight sounds novel, but WhoTF is adjusting their sights for windage and elevation, other than a Marine on a static condition known distance range during qual?! If isn’t occurring on the battlefield, regardless of branch. If the soldier is a trained Designed Marksman, the solider isn’t utilizing iron sights unless the optic goes tits up.

I don’t understand the A2 stock. Length of pull is WAY too long, especially with body armor. M16/M16A1 stock was the better stock.

Back on point, any person/soldier who calls an M16/M16a1 a “musket” has never handled and fired one. For anyone who embraces iron sights, it is a FUN and effective rifle.
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Old January 12, 2020, 02:31   #5
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Aside from 1/7 twist and A2 handguard/delta ring, the A2 was a step backwards from the M16a1. I would also argue that the forward assist added to the XM/A1 was redundant.... and in fact dangerous if the soldier encountered a squib round. The forward assist could have scrapped after ammo/barrel bore updates.

The gov’t profile barrel barrel wasn’t designed by trigger pullers. If it was, more meat would be at the chamber under than the handguard, rather than forward of the FSB.

A2 rear sight sounds novel, but WhoTF is adjusting their sights for windage and elevation, other than a Marine on a static condition known distance range during qual?! If isn’t occurring on the battlefield, regardless of branch. If the soldier is a trained Designed Marksman, the solider isn’t utilizing iron sights unless the optic goes tits up.

I don’t understand the A2 stock. Length of pull is WAY too long, especially with body armor. M16/M16A1 stock was the better stock.

Back on point, any person/soldier who calls an M16/M16a1 a “musket” has never handled and fired one. For anyone who embraces iron sights, it is a FUN and effective rifle.
I always zeroed mine at about 100 yards and just left the sights alone.
At the ranges I found myself using it,,all seemed to have worked out just fine,,at least for me.
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Old January 12, 2020, 04:59   #6
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Aside from 1/7 twist and A2 handguard/delta ring, the A2 was a step backwards from the M16a1. I would also argue that the forward assist added to the XM/A1 was redundant.... and in fact dangerous if the soldier encountered a squib round. The forward assist could have scrapped after ammo/barrel bore updates.

The gov’t profile barrel barrel wasn’t designed by trigger pullers. If it was, more meat would be at the chamber under than the handguard, rather than forward of the FSB.

A2 rear sight sounds novel, but WhoTF is adjusting their sights for windage and elevation, other than a Marine on a static condition known distance range during qual?! If isn’t occurring on the battlefield, regardless of branch. If the soldier is a trained Designed Marksman, the solider isn’t utilizing iron sights unless the optic goes tits up.

I don’t understand the A2 stock. Length of pull is WAY too long, especially with body armor. M16/M16A1 stock was the better stock.

Back on point, any person/soldier who calls an M16/M16a1 a “musket” has never handled and fired one. For anyone who embraces iron sights, it is a FUN and effective rifle.
while I agree with you on some, well other points you make in my opinion are just ignorant.

just where oh ever do I start...

forward assist was the end result of Dod think changing the AR design from IMR to military ball powder resulting fouling
saving dollars resulted dead Americans which DoD blamed on then gun and modified it resulting in the fwd assist on the A1s

Rate twist radically changed as well
very early gun were 1x14
that evolvled to 1x12
later 1x7

1x7 was all about the USMC making the mouse gun a longer range weapon with a very slightly heavier projectile on target
1x12s do the same thing with 55 grain ammo but less mass

gets better
much of the ammo is 193' spec
55 grain ball and asshats try to run it at range through 1x7 twist guns
just comical
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Old January 12, 2020, 06:49   #7
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I have 1/7 and 1/9. I shoot mostly 55 grain and can't tell the difference.
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Old January 12, 2020, 07:23   #8
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while I agree with you on some, well other points you make in my opinion are just ignorant.
l
Not quite sure how any of my points were “ignorant” as you basically agreed with everything I stated, but I’ll assume that you were drunk at the time.

In regard to the forward assist.... yes, I understand why it was implemented. You would understand why it didn’t need to remain once ammunition was addressed, soldiers were kicked in the ass to maintain their weapons, and the eventual adoption of a fully chrome lined barrel by end of Vietnam war. The adoption of the upgrades negated the need for a forward assist.... but Uncle Sugar kept it, and we stupidly still have it today.

.... in regard to ammo, you have it ass backwards. M193 in 1/7 generally runs fine. Running M855/SS109 in a 1/12 barrel will generally result in keyholes and terrible accuracy.
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Old January 12, 2020, 07:31   #9
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The gov’t profile barrel barrel wasn’t designed by trigger pullers. If it was, more meat would be at the chamber under than the handguard, rather than forward of the FSB.
I've always thought the chunk on the front was for harmonics
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Old January 12, 2020, 07:39   #10
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I've always thought the chunk on the front was for harmonics
It had more to do with assumptions that soldiers were bending barrels.

A 1/7 usgi spec profile pencil barrel will shoot side by side with an A2 profile barrel. Concern regarding the barrel overheating should have placed material at the chamber where the most heat is generated. Of course, you could beef up the entire barrel as a whole (such as SOCOM profile in M4A1), but that would make for a HEAVY rifle length barrel!
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Old January 12, 2020, 07:49   #11
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Not all 1:12" twist barrels are horrible with M855....
While my personal test experience is limited to only 4 specimens and at 100yds,,Ive yet to find one that spits bullets sideways or shoots worse then 3moa.
And my 24" 1:12 twist varmint rifle literally shoots bug holes with the nosler 62gr hp.
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Old January 12, 2020, 07:50   #12
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.... another note, 1/9 was intended for M855/SS109 (60-64 grain projectile) , but it was found that 1/9 would not stabilize the long length M856 tracer round. 1/7, considered the standard by armchair commandos, was actually a compromise.
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Old January 12, 2020, 07:58   #13
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Not all 1:12" twist barrels are horrible with M855....
While my personal test experience is limited to only 4 specimens and at 100yds,,Ive yet to find one that spits bullets sideways or shoots worse then 3moa.
And my 24" 1:12 twist varmint rifle literally shoots bug holes with the nosler 62gr hp.
I have shot m855 through 1/12 USGI M16 barrels, and they didn’t keyhole either. The barrels shot tighter groups with M193. I have not shot M855 in the same barrels at longer distances (200+ yards), but I would expect the groups to widen exponentially.

M855 in my old SP1 carbine (16” 1/12 barrel) is a joke.... rounds keyhole and doesn’t group for bunk.
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Old January 12, 2020, 09:13   #14
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1:9 was found not to stabilize tracer,,,In Arctic conditions.
They went to 1:7 because thats what FN and Sweden had already tested and excepted,,,with their humanitarian testing for making the ss109 round more stable in contact with tissue and 'less lethal'.
Everybody seems to forget that part,,,or they never actually read anything about FN developing the ss109 or its testing in the FNC for Sweden.
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Old January 12, 2020, 10:58   #15
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The gov. profile was started because GI's used the 3 prong flash hider to snap steel banding straps on pallets of stuff
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Old January 12, 2020, 12:19   #16
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I have at least six reatively recent AR 15 builds with DPMS Lo Pro uppers without forward assist. When they were dirt cheap purchased six Smith M&P15 "slick sides" without forward assist and a dozen with. Pulled one of each to test and yet to miss forward assist. All of the AR 15 "slick side" builds have done in past three years have 22" to 26" heavy profile 1:12 twist barrels for varmint kiling. A 52 grain SMK loaded to above max chart level in a long 1:12 tube will reach out and kill vermin while still shooting 55 grain ammo well.

In AR 10s both of my 6XC are DPMS Lo Pro uppers without forward assist. Have three more DPMS Lo Pro AR 10 slick side uppers right now to use on my next three 6.5 Creedmoor builds. Any rifle that is built in a fashion may be pressed more into a tactical role or is built in defensive/offensive cartridge gets a forward assist mainly because if ever forced to sell it most buyers want to see that know they never use.

Post Sandy Hook when ARs waiting lists grew short and were just starting to stay on rack over a few hours as unbound and displayed about half the M&P15s shipped by distributors were "slick sides". As parts became available and prices dropped I would guess about half or more of the guys who bought slick sides would show up with a Palmetto forward assist upper and pay us to swap it for the factory slick side. Often they would do a new barrel and free float at same time. Why they just didn't order an extra upper have no idea. Luckily most left store not wanting their original parts. I brought home about two dozen lightly used Smith uppers and their stunning melon it barrels with 20,000 round lifespan. With all the lowers and $59 to $79 bolt carrier groups have stockpiled next shortage all those barrels with forearms and front sight towers will become full rifles for the next batch of panic buyers that will through a thousand dollar bill at a working AR15.
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Old January 12, 2020, 12:21   #17
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The gov. profile was started because GI's used the 3 prong flash hider to snap steel banding straps on pallets of stuff
I used mine to cut the strap on C Rat cases...Thing still worked just fine.
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Old January 12, 2020, 12:25   #18
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1:9 was found not to stabilize tracer,,,In Arctic conditions.
They went to 1:7 because thats what FN and Sweden had already tested and excepted,,,with their humanitarian testing for making the ss109 round more stable in contact with tissue and 'less lethal'.
Everybody seems to forget that part,,,or they never actually read anything about FN developing the ss109 or its testing in the FNC for Sweden.
They? You mean NATO... which included the US?

One of NATO's requirement for the new round to replace 7.62 NATO is that it must penetrate a steel military helmet (same requirement of 7.62 NATO). The steel projectile made this possible. The steel projectile also compromised the ability for the SS109 round to fragment.... and provided a convenient spin in stating that it was "more humane." It was surely not designed to be "less lethal."

So, yes, "they" (Belgians) designed the SS109 (US calls it XM855... pretty sure I stated XM855/SS109 earlier) round around 1/9, as I stated earlier. Also, as stated earlier, "they" used 1/7 as a compromise to stabilize the significantly longer tracer XM856 round (don't recall what the NATO equivalent was called)…. and no, it wasn't just in arctic conditions. 1/9 marginally stabilizes the longer rounds in most condiitons, and is very temperamental resulting in inconsistent performance. Tracer rounds need to reflect the performance of M855/SS109 as cloe as possible in all conditions. I challenge you to shoot M856 tracer rounds at 100 - 300 yards through a 1/9 twist AR barrel, and compare to performance of M855. You might find the results amusing and/or borderline shocking (I have done it). I'm a dork, I find this stuff interesting.
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Old January 12, 2020, 12:26   #19
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I used mine to cut the strap on C Rat cases...Thing still worked just fine.
I would have traded the C-Rats to some Vietnamese for some rice and rat meat and the occasional recently dressed cat.
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Old January 12, 2020, 12:30   #20
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I would have traded the C-Rats to some Vietnamese for some rice and rat meat and the occasional recently dressed cat.
That tells me,,,you were never in SEA.

GI socks,,two,,,packed full of rice,,,some Texas pete,,still sucks for a meal.
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Old January 12, 2020, 12:34   #21
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I used mine to cut the strap on C Rat cases...Thing still worked just fine.
Thank you for your service.
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Old January 12, 2020, 12:54   #22
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Thank you for your service.
And you yours sir........
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Old January 12, 2020, 13:08   #23
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That tells me,,,you were never in SEA.

GI socks,,two,,,packed full of rice,,,some Texas pete,,still sucks for a meal.
You need to visit Peru where when invited to eat with locals they generally serve honored guests with a local delicacy of guinea pig cooked with head and split from neck to @$$ with guts pinned in position with toothpicks so they cook properly as the entrails are the delicacy part. First time you stare at guinea pig guts with a proud smiling cook and host waiting for you to start before they do is a learning experience. Learned to tell them when invited am a vegetarian which usually results in them recruiting a cook from one of the many Krishna cult communities in Peru who cook a mean plate of local yams, potatoes and onions.
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Old January 12, 2020, 13:17   #24
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You need to visit Peru where when invited to eat with locals they generally serve honored guests with a local delicacy of guinea pig cooked with head and split from neck to @$$ with guts pinned in position with toothpicks so they cook properly as the entrails are the delicacy part. First time you stare at guinea pig guts with a proud smiling cook and host waiting for you to start before they do is a learning experience. Learned to tell them when invited am a vegetarian which usually results in them recruiting a cook from one of the many Krishna cult communities in Peru who cook a mean plate of local yams, potatoes and onions.
All of which,,,above,,,is why I prefer C rats,,,MRE's,,old mess Sgt's,,cooked hots,,,vs bloody diarrhea and worms for a week.

GI's ain't tourist,,,screw up your feet or bowels,,,you're out of the fight,, and out of the fight,,,you ain;t worth much to no one.
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Old January 12, 2020, 13:19   #25
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You need to visit Peru where when invited to eat with locals they generally serve honored guests with a local delicacy of guinea pig cooked with head and split from neck to @$$ with guts pinned in position with toothpicks so they cook properly as the entrails are the delicacy part. First time you stare at guinea pig guts with a proud smiling cook and host waiting for you to start before they do is a learning experience. Learned to tell them when invited am a vegetarian which usually results in them recruiting a cook from one of the many Krishna cult communities in Peru who cook a mean plate of local yams, potatoes and onions.
And,,,I've been to Peru,,,about like most third world countries,,,don't drink the water,,and the women smell funny...............
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Old January 12, 2020, 14:42   #26
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All of which,,,above,,,is why I prefer C rats,,,MRE's,,old mess Sgt's,,cooked hots,,,vs bloody diarrhea and worms for a week.

GI's ain't tourist,,,screw up your feet or bowels,,,you're out of the fight,, and out of the fight,,,you ain;t worth much to no one.
Some of the c-rats weren't bad. Main units were good excepting pork and ham slices which tasted the same to me. But would fill your belly if you were hungry. Pound cake, peachs were divine. Chocolate nut roll was okay.

Take all of the beef units and toss in a pan with instant rice and jalapenos over a fire. Good stuff.

We'd take the case of c-rats and dump them upside down (label side down) and take turns picking your meals thinking that this was a fair way to distribute the meals. That is until one of the guys pointed out that the cases of c-rations were always packed in the same order. He shared that info after he high graded his meals for a long time since he would memorize the order and knew where to grab.
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Old January 12, 2020, 15:07   #27
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Some of the c-rats weren't bad. Main units were good excepting pork and ham slices which tasted the same to me. But would fill your belly if you were hungry. Pound cake, peachs were divine. Chocolate nut roll was okay.

Take all of the beef units and toss in a pan with instant rice and jalapenos over a fire. Good stuff.

We'd take the case of c-rats and dump them upside down (label side down) and take turns picking your meals thinking that this was a fair way to distribute the meals. That is until one of the guys pointed out that the cases of c-rations were always packed in the same order. He shared that info after he high graded his meals for a long time since he would memorize the order and knew where to grab.

Seen some nasty fistfights over this very thing.

Green ham and Lima beans makes a man right mean and nasty after several days.
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Old January 12, 2020, 16:33   #28
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They? You mean NATO... which included the US?

One of NATO's requirement for the new round to replace 7.62 NATO is that it must penetrate a steel military helmet (same requirement of 7.62 NATO). The steel projectile made this possible. The steel projectile also compromised the ability for the SS109 round to fragment.... and provided a convenient spin in stating that it was "more humane." It was surely not designed to be "less lethal."

So, yes, "they" (Belgians) designed the SS109 (US calls it XM855... pretty sure I stated XM855/SS109 earlier) round around 1/9, as I stated earlier. Also, as stated earlier, "they" used 1/7 as a compromise to stabilize the significantly longer tracer XM856 round (don't recall what the NATO equivalent was called)…. and no, it wasn't just in arctic conditions. 1/9 marginally stabilizes the longer rounds in most condiitons, and is very temperamental resulting in inconsistent performance. Tracer rounds need to reflect the performance of M855/SS109 as cloe as possible in all conditions. I challenge you to shoot M856 tracer rounds at 100 - 300 yards through a 1/9 twist AR barrel, and compare to performance of M855. You might find the results amusing and/or borderline shocking (I have done it). I'm a dork, I find this stuff interesting.
SS109 came out of FN testing for a longer range bullet in the FNC with 1:12 twist.
It Swedish testing with the 1:12 fnc (long before equivalent tracer ammo was thought of) it displayed a tendency to tumble almost immediate on impact with soft tissue.
Sweden's testing board ruled that such tendency would be considered inhumane, as at that time there was also talk of updating the 49' Geneva agreements on such things.
Sweden asked FN to change the twist used to one fast enough that tumbeling would be all but eliminated in soft tissue, ie make it less lethal.
The German helmet (3.5mm mild steel) penetration test was previously easilly passed by ss109 out of 1:12 twist fnc.
The US submitted the m16a1 (1:12) with xm777 ammo to NATO testing. While judged much superior in terms of incapacitation and lethality in soft tissue, it was less effective at the penetration testing. This stemed from the fact that they had production issues and couldent keep the penetrator core strait and centered in the lead core and jacket.
If your interested in this stuff, you should really search out and read some of the info and history for the 1980 nato findings and the compromise the US made to keep NATO happy...
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Old January 12, 2020, 19:37   #29
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I trained on one and carried one a bunch. When they went to the A2 version I felt that it was a step backwards away from the lighter a1 version.
I hear that the younger M4 soldiers call the a1 and a2 muskets, so be it. Sometimes the old stuff just feels better.
This.

Also, thread needs music.

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Old January 12, 2020, 20:00   #30
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This.

Also, thread needs music.



I'll just park this here.

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Old January 12, 2020, 20:19   #31
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So far as twist and 55gr, my 1:7 18" will blow up very thin jacketed varmint bullets. Midway dogtowns to be exact. Other higher quality 55 gr varminters held together. Those dogtowns must be wrapped in copper foil.
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Old January 12, 2020, 20:29   #32
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I'm left handed and wear prescription glasses. My M16A1 ejects brass to my face. So I use a C7 type upper. Much cheaper than new glasses.
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Old January 12, 2020, 23:04   #33
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So far as twist and 55gr, my 1:7 18" will blow up very thin jacketed varmint bullets. Midway dogtowns to be exact. Other higher quality 55 gr varminters held together. Those dogtowns must be wrapped in copper foil.
Dogtown were designed for 22 Hornet and not 5.56 to my understanding.
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Old January 13, 2020, 00:31   #34
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A1s were always my favourite of the breed, add a C7 upper if you conceived shooting offside. The last hurah for the A1 here was in the early 90s when they fished them out of storage and issued them for deployments to East Timor. The M203 kits fo rthe F88 at that point still remained abject failures and the Wombat Gun (M79) was still being issued. They wanted something with a 203 slung so out they came. Most by that point had C7 uppers (as this along with A2 handguards and butts were what were procures for spares never saw anything but 1:12 replacement (A1 profile) barrels but heard unsubstantiated rumours of some 1:9 but I think it was wishful thinking). I actually prefer the A1 handguards to shoot with but they are not as resilient as the A2s.
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Old January 13, 2020, 07:10   #35
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Dogtown were designed for 22 Hornet and not 5.56 to my understanding.
He said 55gr....Nobody 'designs' their heavy 55gr bullet for the hornet...
But cheap ass thin jacked bullets will come apart if spun too fast and/or pushed too hard.
Ive no idea who makes dogtowns for midway, but hornady for one is well versed in building thin jacketed bullets that tend to disintegrate.....
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Old January 13, 2020, 07:23   #36
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Seen some nasty fistfights over this very thing.

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Old January 13, 2020, 10:36   #37
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Like Bigfoot, I heard about this legendary meal but never actually saw one in person ...
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Old January 13, 2020, 11:47   #38
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At the north texas shoot in November last year I got to fire a bunch of weapons. ExCDN let me shoot his Brownells M16a1 clone. This was my favorite one. I trained on one and carried one a bunch. When they went to the A2 version I felt that it was a step backwards away from the lighter a1 version.

Shooting ExCDN's boomstick just felt so right. The m4 profiles are a lot handier and more practical but there is just something about the a1 that fits me.
So I got to looking around and found a Brownell's XM16e1 for sale for a good price. Though not the a1 exactly it was close enough for ergonomics and weight to not matter to me. So I violated my gun buying moratorium and had it sent my way.

I hear that the younger M4 soldiers call the a1 and a2 muskets, so be it. Sometimes the old stuff just feels better.
You know how it is Bug; If you can't be a positive example, be a horrible influence!
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Old January 13, 2020, 17:10   #39
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The two years I did in ROTC never missed any FTX my school held or other colleges that would let me. Both years did a two week summer camp plus a two week camp initiating students scheduled to sign contracts for MS3 which put you under contract, paid a big chunk of tuition and wore "OCS" tabs on collar. Had to sign an eight year contract with your final two years of school counting toward that leaving six years to serve. After being a declared military science minor for two years, highest ranked sophomore in our school and most schools we trained with after my two week orientation course was ruled 4F at my final physical when had sailed through my incoming pysical had to take to qualify for first summer camp.

I spent more time in the military science building than all others combined and was being allowed to take the TEC Tape video class that covered every aspect of different weapons from M16 to stinger missiles and more. Learned real fast when on a monthly weekend FTX, spring break ten day FTX and the three two week courses ROTC cadets got the worst of the worst that the Army couldn't even sell as surplus. It was common to get C-Rats in the previous 1958 date when C-Rations while looked the same and were packaged the same were actually MCIs (Meal Combat Individual) thus the 1960 and later dated C-Rats were better than the 1940 to 1958 issue C-Rats.

We seemed to always get the pre-1958 dates on our rations and remember one FTX all the comments about the food because every case carried a Pre-VE day date thus were made during WW2. Having been rock climbing since age 16 and went on my first mountaineering trip as a prep school present to myself knew all about freeze dried backpackers/climbers food. Knew that the bags they shipped in weighed three times what a zip lock baggie sized just large enough for each item to fit and sealed with a piece of duct tape. Every FTX we went on I would break open and repackage 2.5 meals per day with chess cake (Mountain House Cheese Cake) which was the best dehydrated item going.

Would even have freeze dried ice cream and such. Purchased my own Alice Pack and replaced the frame with a semi rigid aluminum and polymer frame out of a Wilderness Experience backpackers pack that was twice as comfortable as a Alice frame when weighted and only people that noticed were regular Army Non-Coms who I was suprised never said anything. Would have all my food packed under personal gear and when they would start throwing C-Rat boxes at us randomly would pull the few usable items then the rest gave away, put back in stack or hid under a bush or pile of leaves. So for 2.5 years managed to eat like a human and was very careful not to let anyone know I was eating anything other than C-Rats.

Rather than the cheap basic training boots was issued with my uniform purchased me a very well fitting pair of Corcoran Jump Boots which again the regular Army Non-Coms noticed as long as they passed inspection at beginning of exercise was never busted for wearing a good pair of boots. Carried a Randall M15 Airman combat knife on my gear and skated through ROTC eating good food that weighed less than half the other cadets loads. Knew once left ROTC that party would end but by then would be the 2nd Leuitenant all the enlisted hated and most officers looked down own and would have to buckle down and play by the rules. Have to say there were some C-Rats that if I had been forced to use would have lost quickly the heavy cans of suckage and just gone hungry living off what little edible food was in each box.

Had a great aunt that lived very close to F.D. Merrill and when they had trainees out in the field for different exercises she would literally carry the equivalent of a big families Thanksgiving meal out to the "smoke house" and the smell would draw them in like flies and she would feed all she could. Her husband had been one of the Currahee Rangers in WW2 and she felt for them. She would do the full meal after she realized they had been out in the field for several days. She gauged field training by fact she baked two pies every day of the week and would sit them one on the well house to cool. If it had been eaten and pan returned she knew Rangers Trainees were about and would bake three pies so could leave two on the well house and my great uncle still had a fresh pie with his dinner. If the pies disappeared four or five days straight then she cooked the big meal and set a table in the smoke house just before sunset and collected the dishes up the next morning.

When I was a sponsored climber by Petzl and PMI Ropes when they got the contract to upgrade the Ranger Camp from tied Swiss Seats, carabiner wrap rappel and braided green line I had to go with the local rep and train the Cadre on how to properly use the special run of black "Guru" harnesses, Figure 8 rappelling, best knots for Kenmantle ropes and how to use the Petzl self drive hand powered rock drill kit for placing bolted anchors.

This was also about the time I became the American Alpine Club and Southeastern Climbers Coalition representative that would hash out how to best utilize National Forest land climbing resources shared by the Army and civilian climbers. The Army forgot to renew their special use permit and I was smart enough to not let mine expire so legally my guided groups took precisdense over the Army's use but we built a great rapport and for over a decade any anchor placement, removal, or maintenance the Forrest Service used me to meet with the Army to discuss best use so the mountain didn't turn into a trash pit. In one weekend myself and a small crew of Rangers removed over 200 bolts and placed fifty new which ended up giving them more lanes with safer anchors and less complaints from tree huggers about the mess they had made.

Generally whenever their anchors got sketchy they would back up five feet and place a new line. Few years later would repeat till there was row after row of ratty old dangerous and fugly bolts. Taught them how to patch the holes when we pulled old bolts so cliff line always looked much nicer. Now they have a former Ranger who retired from the military and has a contract to maintain the anchors which is a great thing as every time a rotation of new Cadre came in we had to go train them on bolt placement. Interacted with them officially well over a decade and closer to two decades and made a lot of good friends. Turned out the Cadre knew about my great aunts pies and food even after she passed. Said most nights when she would put food out they would be watching to see who the smart Ranger Candidates were and often took the pies before trainees could get them.
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