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Old December 31, 2019, 12:11   #1
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Prepping the wife

Taking Laurie to the range today so she can practice and pick which pistol she wants to use for her CCW class. We have it narrowed down to the CZ P-07 and the S&W Shield.
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Old December 31, 2019, 18:16   #2
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We just got back from the range. There is still a ton of work to do...
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Old December 31, 2019, 18:43   #3
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With the topic of so many of your threads being fine cooking I was almost scared to open this up.....
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Old December 31, 2019, 19:01   #4
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With the topic of so many of your threads being fine cooking I was almost scared to open this up.....

Lol
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Old December 31, 2019, 19:26   #5
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Airsoft in the garage until fundamentals are mastered.

Or until it becomes apparent that the pupil has no interest in "mastering" anything related to firearms.

Then in that case, a hammerless 5-shot revolver, with instructions "Shove it in their belt-buckle and pull trigger until gun or goon stops making noise."
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Old December 31, 2019, 19:46   #6
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Airsoft in the garage until fundamentals are mastered.

Or until it becomes apparent that the pupil has no interest in "mastering" anything related to firearms.

Then in that case, a hammerless 5-shot revolver, with instructions "Shove it in their belt-buckle and pull trigger until gun or goon stops making noise."
^^^^ We have a winner!
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Old December 31, 2019, 20:01   #7
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Might I suggest some you tube videos for her to watch? There are some good shooters on you tube that teach a shooter in a way that opens their mind pretty good. Once the mind has a direction the fundemental skills are easier to catch on to.
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Old December 31, 2019, 23:40   #8
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All good advice!

After watching some video of her shooting today I got a couple of things that should be fixable pretty easy. Time will tell...
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Old January 01, 2020, 00:16   #9
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Females do not often accept instruction well from their mates......in any activity.....


...jus' sayin'.......





.....................
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Old January 01, 2020, 00:41   #10
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Females do not often accept instruction well from their mates......in any activity.....


...jus' sayin'.......





.....................
Aint that the truth. Be happy she even pulls it out.

Be happy.

If you don't like how she does it she'll make you pull your own trigger.
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Old January 01, 2020, 05:00   #11
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Females do not often accept instruction well from their mates......in any activity.....


...jus' sayin'.......





.....................
This.
A firearms trainer friend of mine once told me females were some of his best pupils because there was no macho bs involved. As long as their spouses were nowhere around. If their spouses were around they were some of his worst.
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Old January 01, 2020, 13:43   #12
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Yup. Women - can't be told anything by the husband. Will listen intently to the knucklehead saying THE EXACT SAME THING you've said fifty times over the past year.

Don't coach your wife. That's what I say.


Also, Ron: smaller gun equals 'snappier' recoil. If I were the HMAC, I'd make her shoot that P-07.
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Old January 01, 2020, 13:57   #13
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I agree on the P-07.
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Old January 04, 2020, 12:46   #14
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Red face

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Originally Posted by brunop View Post
Yup. Women - can't be told anything by the husband. Will listen intently to the knucklehead saying THE EXACT SAME THING you've said fifty times over the past year.

Don't coach your wife. That's what I say.


Also, Ron: smaller gun equals 'snappier' recoil. If I were the HMAC, I'd make her shoot that P-07.
We do our best to listen to each other, but the more you say it, the less important it becomes. Like that "you left the toilet seat up again!"

Yeah, don't coach your wife. I provide her w/info & experience, even showing her my way of doing it, but it's up to her how to do it. Just like I would with any friend.

"Smaller guns have 'snappier' recoil." It's time to put this BS out to pasture. I have a 3" and a 6" .44 mag. I can't tell the difference in recoil. And a 9mm doesn't have enough recoil to matter.

"Make her shoot that P-07." Can't think of a worse way to get her to give up shooting. Or give up , , , don't want to go there.
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Old January 06, 2020, 10:40   #15
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I bet those .44s have impeccably tuned reciprocating mass physics...
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Old January 06, 2020, 11:01   #16
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I'm gonna have her try the CZ 75 compact and see how that goes.
Worst case scenario she can try my CZ P-10F with the Trijicon SRO



SRO will be here tomorrow.

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Old January 06, 2020, 18:09   #17
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Originally Posted by jekittrell View Post
We do our best to listen to each other, but the more you say it, the less important it becomes. Like that "you left the toilet seat up again!"

Yeah, don't coach your wife. I provide her w/info & experience, even showing her my way of doing it, but it's up to her how to do it. Just like I would with any friend.

"Smaller guns have 'snappier' recoil." It's time to put this BS out to pasture. I have a 3" and a 6" .44 mag. I can't tell the difference in recoil. And a 9mm doesn't have enough recoil to matter.

"Make her shoot that P-07." Can't think of a worse way to get her to give up shooting. Or give up , , , don't want to go there.
Welcome aboard!

I have some news for you, and it's called "Physics". Smaller guns of the same caliber and operating system have 'snappier' recoil. Not because I say so, but because 'mass' and 'acceleration' and stupid stuff like that. You can measure acceleration of a mass by the 'force' applied to it - and frequently this acceleration is related to how much it weighs. But don't take my word for it - you can check out any authors starting with Newton and ending with some random physics text the kids at the high school are using.

Furthermore, 9mm may not have enough recoil to "matter" to you, but it matters to anyone who is at the edge of being able to handle it. This applies to children, some women, and probably some men, too.

Lastly, I know sportsnut and his wife. He knows me well enough to know that I didn't actually mean "make" her shoot one. Just strongly suggest or to have it on hand so she can switch when the little gun is not as handy as she might have thought. Oh, and I own the Shield and have taught classes with students who are using them.

But thanks for the tips.
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Old January 06, 2020, 18:10   #18
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I bet those .44s have impeccably tuned reciprocating mass physics...
Ha-ha. I just wrote my thing as soon as I saw the post. Then I read the thread and saw this...
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old January 06, 2020, 18:19   #19
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Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Airsoft in the garage until fundamentals are mastered.

Or until it becomes apparent that the pupil has no interest in "mastering" anything related to firearms.

Then in that case, a hammerless 5-shot revolver, with instructions "Shove it in their belt-buckle and pull trigger until gun or goon stops making noise."
WEG pretty much sums it up IMHO. My wife and daughter both carry an air-weight Lady Smith for this very reason.


ETA: It took a LOT of restraint to not comment on how to "prep the wife"
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Old January 06, 2020, 18:30   #20
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As in... "y'all are doin' it wrong."
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old January 06, 2020, 18:45   #21
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WEG pretty much sums it up IMHO. My wife and daughter both carry an air-weight Lady Smith for this very reason.
Yeah - mine won't work at anything related to shooting, so she doesn't carry anything. She's a home-body, and this small town is low risk (I know, I know - they *all* are...).

She has a G17 with a light and an AR-15 at home, but I swear they are medicine man amulets or pseudo-religious talismans more than anything. I'd rather the 14 year old daughter - rather than the wife - pick up the rifle...
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old January 06, 2020, 19:51   #22
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I’m gonna call it now.

That red-dot sight on a pistol is a HUGE MISTAKE for self defense for anyone other than a devoted enthusiast.

Once the shooter becomes accustomed to a red-dot pistol in a controlled setting, you may see improved groups at the range. In a dynamic situation, that element of technical complexity and focus will result in deadly hesitation.

Those dot sights on combat pistols are for shooters who have their head 200% in the game.

If the objective is training a non-self-motivated person for for self defense, use of sights should be low priority. Focus on fast, and controlled, manipulation of a simple gun at 3 yards and 5 yards. Pie-plate sized groups, without mishap, or evidence of fear, are a win.
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Old January 06, 2020, 19:56   #23
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I’m gonna call it now.

That red-dot sight on a pistol is a HUGE MISTAKE for self defense for anyone other than a devoted enthusiast.

Once the shooter becomes accustomed to a red-dot pistol in a controlled setting, you may see improved groups at the range. In a dynamic situation, that element of technical complexity and focus will result in deadly hesitation.

Those dot sights on combat pistols are for shooters who have their head 200% in the game.

If the objective is training a non-self-motivated person for for self defense, use of sights should be low priority. Focus on fast, and controlled, manipulation of a simple gun at 3 yards and 5 yards. Pie-plate sized groups, without mishap, or evidence of fear, are a win.


Lol, we are still a pie plate or two off from 20'
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Old January 06, 2020, 20:35   #24
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All the guns I buy for my wife that are semis is me wanting to give her another gun for me to have. She's that bad. She shot a hole in the wall just messing with one on the counter
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Old January 06, 2020, 20:47   #25
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Ron -

Two-thirds of the Michigan State Police qualification happens at 3 yards and 7 yards. Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) starts Handgun 1 at two or three yards on full-sized IPSC silhouettes.

I would let her 'win' at hitting paper plate at three yards to start. Seems too easy for us, but might be a good way to not stress about 'hits' and more about having success while learning that 'loud gun' + 'recoil' isn't going to bite her. Also - .22 LR handguns for the beginning-training-win.

JMHO.
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Old January 06, 2020, 20:58   #26
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I would let her 'win' at hitting paper plate at three yards to start. Seems too easy for us, but might be a good way to not stress about 'hits' and more about having success while learning that 'loud gun' + 'recoil' isn't going to bite her. Also - .22 LR handguns for the beginning-training-win.

JMHO.
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Old January 06, 2020, 22:15   #27
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That’s awesome, I just pulled the ole Ruger bull barrel target 22 out for her to shoot.
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Old January 06, 2020, 23:27   #28
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Mrs Andy is fine with either a G23 or G22, G27 she is better throwing it at the target, she also finds that it will short cycle on her (yes limp wrist I know) more often than either of us would be comfy with, the 22 or 23 run like tops (as does my 1911) for her.
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Old January 07, 2020, 01:30   #29
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That’s awesome, I just pulled the ole Ruger bull barrel target 22 out for her to shoot.
Amen. She'll dig it. Then handguns will be less scary, and she'll be able to handle the larger ones in no time.


@Andy the Aussie: Don't. Say. Anything. Else.
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Old January 07, 2020, 11:59   #30
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I have some news for you, and it's called "Physics". Smaller guns of the same caliber and operating system have 'snappier' recoil. Not because I say so, but because 'mass' and 'acceleration' and stupid stuff like that. You can measure acceleration of a mass by the 'force' applied to it - and frequently this acceleration is related to how much it weighs. But don't take my word for it - you can check out any authors starting with Newton and ending with some random physics text the kids at the high school are using.

Physics. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.

Small, relatively heavy autos in acceptable calibers are what I find to be the best idea. Bought the wife a Kahr K9, and she loves it. It has enough mass to offset it's small size, but it's not so heavy it's cumbersome. It also fits her hand well, and the factory rubber grips make for nice purchase. It's also nice in that there are no external controls to have to deal with under stress, just a long, excellent trigger pull.

As to the CZ I find that to be a decent choice if it fits here hand. It can be carried with safety off and hammer down, as the long heavy DA trigger can serve as a safety. Same goes for the compact, which I know to be an excellent choice. Good friend is a 90-nothing lb, 4'10" of hot little Asian, and that is her carry piece of choice (sorry, you don't get pics). Like my wife's Kahr it has mass enough to tame recoil, while being a small enough package to control at speed.

I would, however, recommend getting a trigger job done to lighten the DA trigger, as they are like 12 or more lbs. I've had mine brought down to the 8ish lb area, and significantly cleaned up. Made a HUGE difference, and it's not so light it's unsafe, but makes first-shot hits far more likely. Just have to find someone that knows them. Better grips like Hogues go a long way to helping control as well. The G10 works, but it can get uncomfortable to hands that aren't doing manual labor for a living.
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Old January 07, 2020, 13:02   #31
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Physics.

I would, however, recommend getting a trigger job done to lighten the DA trigger, as they are like 12 or more lbs. I've had mine brought down to the 8ish lb area, and significantly cleaned up. Made a HUGE difference, and it's not so light it's unsafe, but makes first-shot hits far more likely.


Here is what my P-07 is showing on a ten pull average after 300 rounds.

Single:


Double:


When new OTB unfired. Ten pull average.

Single:


Double:
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Old January 07, 2020, 15:01   #32
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My DIL likes my son's P01, but her hand are so small she has problems with the grip and double action trigger. He got her the 75B Compact and she really likes that. He put a set of thin LOK grips on it and she can reach the trigger okay now. LGS has a used SOLO that might become her birthday present. It fits the bill with her small hands and short fingers.
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Old January 09, 2020, 23:35   #33
jekittrell
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Originally Posted by brunop View Post
Welcome aboard!

I have some news for you, and it's called "Physics". Smaller guns of the same caliber and operating system have 'snappier' recoil. Not because I say so, but because 'mass' and 'acceleration' and stupid stuff like that. You can measure acceleration of a mass by the 'force' applied to it - and frequently this acceleration is related to how much it weighs. But don't take my word for it - you can check out any authors starting with Newton and ending with some random physics text the kids at the high school are using.

Furthermore, 9mm may not have enough recoil to "matter" to you, but it matters to anyone who is at the edge of being able to handle it. This applies to children, some women, and probably some men, too.

Lastly, I know sportsnut and his wife. He knows me well enough to know that I didn't actually mean "make" her shoot one. Just strongly suggest or to have it on hand so she can switch when the little gun is not as handy as she might have thought. Oh, and I own the Shield and have taught classes with students who are using them.

But thanks for the tips.
Thanks for the welcome.

Oops. I probably came across as macho/braggart/hot air/BS'r. That's not me. I spent over 3 decades making software behave itself, aka programming. One has to be extremely concise and accurate, damn the torpedoes. If not, it will byte you HARD. I don't see any reason to not be same in The Real World. Besides, there's no way to talk about a .44 mag, or larger, w/o sounding macho. I'm no wordsmith, so I won't try.

Physics shmysics. My hand never met your Mr. Physics. All it knows is how the cannon feels when you light it off. But you insist on physics. What unit of measurement is "snappier"? Oops, must be serious. I figured what better demonstration of "snappier" than 2 identical firearms, the only differences being length of barrel, hence slightly less weight for the smaller. What better comparison than the king (well, prince) of recoil than the .44 mag? Sure, you can calculate kinetic energy of bullet, mass of gun, so on, and determine the impulse. Is this useful? My hand tells me the calculated difference would be negligible. However, it does sound like an interesting project.

If I can compare my S&W Airlite 329 to my S&W 629, I'll update. THAT would put this "snappier" to rest. Or verify.

I posit that "snappier" is subjective recoil, not something measurable. It all goes out the window with various grips. IMO, the Taurus ribber grip minimizes recoil big time, likely making the .454 casull feel like a .357 mag.
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Old January 10, 2020, 00:20   #34
jekittrell
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"9mm [almost] too much for some". I understand the sentiment, especially as the more powerful rounds are variously described as "brutal" and such. Or that old one "the .45 kicks like a mule". IMO, this is what they expect, so when they try it, that's what they experience.

Bluntly, they haven't been trained properly. My favorite example. My wonderful wife, at the time, came in at 4'10 1/2" and 115 lbs. She barely knew the difference between .22, 9mm, .44 mag. Not even sure how to hold the piece. I skipped the .22, and went to .38 spl w/target loads. She got the hang of it fast, and I kept moving her up the scale, at her pace. She got quite comfy w/.357 mag, so IT WAS TIME. She shot a few .44 specials to get the feel of it. Time for full-power .44 mag. Should have seen her face! Wow! Like there was no tomorrow. She immediately emptied the gun, "I like that!"

One day, at The Farm, we were making lead deposits, and one of The Boys--rather large--showed up, obviously intimidated by his .44 mag. He said something about the new red dot sight not being lined up. We discussed a bit, then he asked my wife if she wanted to try it. Rather condescending, he was. "Sure" she said. He said they were full-power magnums. Wife, casually: "I know". Real fast, she proceeded to empty the gun into the 10 ring at 20 yards (I couldn't have done better). She handed it back, hamming it up "nice sights". Could've driven a tractor in his mouth.

Lesson: anyone should be able to learn to handle at least .357 mag. And quite possibly, the .44 mag. It all depends on whether or not their attitude was ruined by hearsay. A rather large friend wouldn't try a .45 because "it kicks like a mule".

Why yes, I love .44 mag. It's always first out of the range bag, and I have many others to select from.
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Old January 14, 2020, 16:07   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jekittrell View Post
Thanks for the welcome.

Oops. I probably came across as macho/braggart/hot air/BS'r. That's not me. I spent over 3 decades making software behave itself, aka programming. One has to be extremely concise and accurate, damn the torpedoes. If not, it will byte you HARD. I don't see any reason to not be same in The Real World. Besides, there's no way to talk about a .44 mag, or larger, w/o sounding macho. I'm no wordsmith, so I won't try.

...


I hope you stay. This place is pretty cool, and the people are excellent.

I meant it when I said "Welcome Aboard."
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Old January 15, 2020, 12:10   #36
tac-40
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Originally Posted by jekittrell View Post
Lesson: anyone should be able to learn to handle at least .357 mag. And quite possibly, the .44 mag. It all depends on whether or not their attitude was ruined by hearsay. A rather large friend wouldn't try a .45 because "it kicks like a mule".
And there in lies the problem on both sides of the coin. Some state it kicks like a mule and that affects their shooting ability. You are making a blanket statement about recoil being subjective and discounting the actual physics. Recoil Physics works on every gun, no matter the size. What does matter is the other physical aspects of the shooter and the gun, including what that person is capable of. Too me, my 4 inch Colt Trooper is a sweet shooting pistol with moderate recoil using full house loads. I can and have shot it all day (couple hundred rounds) with no discomfort. My 3 inch S&W SC360 is another thing all together. Snappier is not a word I would use to describe shooting it, unpleasant is much closer to the truth.I have to stop and let my hand rest after a cylinder of full house .357 rounds. Any more and my hand bruises around the web area. The Colt I shoot one handed, the S&W must be held with two. Same ammo, different pistols, different results. The recoil impulses are the same, but the physical design and size of the Colt mitigates what the shooter is subjected to.

My wife, 5'3"/115, can shoot my 1911 with no issue. But she cannot shoot my G21 comfortably or accurately. Same caliber, approx. the same weight, so same recoil impulse. Why? Her small hands can grip the 1911 properly, while she can barely hold the G21's larger grip.
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Schools uses to start with the "three R's". Reading, writing, and arithmetic. Now they start with the "three D's". Dipshitery, Dumbassery, and Douchebaggery-Retired Bum

If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it.
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Old January 16, 2020, 07:32   #37
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I've taught my wife how to operate the Ruger Sp101 we keep at bedside, but never how to shoot straight or lead a moving target. Had a feeling I would regret it someday
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