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Old November 09, 2018, 10:56   #1
Randall
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.458 SOCOM, .450 Bushmaster, or .50 Beowulf?

For no particular reason (maybe its just the season); recently, I've been considering a large caliber upper for when the mood strikes. Not really interested in a dedicated rifle, just an upper to fit on a 5.56 lower. Thoughts?

One other question. Which red dots would you recommend to handle the recoil?
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Old November 09, 2018, 11:25   #2
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I have had the "urge" for a thumper, but so far have managed to resist.

I think if I did give in, it would be with the 458 Socom.....or in second place the 450 Bushmaster. I like the speed demons of the thumpers!

But I have no plans to get one as of yet.......
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Old November 09, 2018, 11:40   #3
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I love my .50 Beowulf but damn it was expensive to get into and develop a decent cheap load. It kicks the hell out of everything. I like the .458 socom but it doesn’t do what the Beowulf does. I feel my 7.62 battle rifles can cover the .458 socom need. The Beowulf is like a semi auto 45/70 with max loads.
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Old November 09, 2018, 12:39   #4
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I've had my Beowulf over 20 years. Don't take it out much but it's great fun to shoot when I do.
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Old November 09, 2018, 12:53   #5
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I can only speak of 458 SOCOM and 450 Bushmaster. In straight walled restricted states the SOCOM round gets left out of the picture if hunting is what you have in mind.
The Bushmaster takes a bit more care in selecting magazines the will feed reliably. Aluminum and plastic mags lack enough feed lip strength to hold back a full stack and will send rounds flying every which way if bumped. Steel have worked quite well for me with a bit of tuning. For a hunter on the go, or for a non-reloader, the Bushmaster can be found nearly everywhere.

SOCOM rounds feed better from mags and chamber better due to the bottle necked cases. And it hits hard and suppresses well too. Better have plenty on hand for an outing because ammo is hard to find if you run out.

The 50 Beowulf is something I have no experience with. I would think that the lips in a steel magazine could easily handle the large diameter case. Here is another cartridge that you need to make sure you have brought enough on a outing.

All three are thumpers and are effective at rearranging anything hit with one. Considering bullet selection, case availability, ease of reloading, mainstream availability, and performance expected will determine which is best for you. I always used EOTECHs on my builds. You pays the money and makes your choice.
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Old November 09, 2018, 13:39   #6
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I just took advantage of the Primary Arms sale on .458 SOCOM barrels and bought a couple. Totally an impulse buy though and no experience and little knowledge of the cartridge. I will get a bolt and carrier from somewhere, Brownells has them for a little over $100, and I already have an upper receiver that is not being used. Then a gas block, a muzzle device and a few other small parts and I can put it all together. I have found ammo for about $42 a box. Why got involved in another project, I don't know.
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Old November 09, 2018, 15:23   #7
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Beowulf ammo is the cheapest of the three starting at $1.11/round with .458 Socom starting at $1.35/round and .450 Bushmaster $1.17/round according to ammoseek.com
As stated before Beowulf and Bushmaster are straight walled.
The Beowulf probably has the shortest effective range of them.
I bought my Beo upper at one of the Black Rifle Conventions held back in the early '90s after myself, my girlfriend and another couple ate dinner at the same table as Bill Alexander and his chief engineer (don't recall his name, though he was from H&K). This was before they were selling complete rifles and only uppers at the time IIRC.
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Old November 09, 2018, 17:48   #8
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[QUOTE=Gazz;4656091] I will get a bolt and carrier from somewhere, Brownells has them for a little over $100, and I already have an upper receiver that is not being used.

Be warned that those large caliber thumper rounds need to have enlarged ejection ports for fired cases to pass though. You will have to modify your own or purchase one made to accommodate the larger size. Tromix and others sell them plus has drawings for the do-it-yourselfer.
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Old November 09, 2018, 19:25   #9
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Thanks for that tip! I have an upper that has no forward assist and was made without provisions for a dustcover so should be easy enough.
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Old November 09, 2018, 23:16   #10
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I considered the cost of building a straight cased ammo rifle, but chose to buy a NIB Ruger AR-556 MRC in .450 Bushmaster. Cost was around $750. It is a well built rifle, and I appreciated the beefer bolt and chamber profile. the rifle also comes stock with a two stage trigger compared to RRA and Larue.

I found that building an upper would run me around $500, give or take, excluding shipping (and time). Taking into consideration the lower with decent trigger and Magpul furniture (… also a MIL-SPEC receiver extension), $750 was a good buy.

I was pleasantly surprised by how mellow the .450 Bushmaster round is to shoot! I really enjoyed zeroing it, despite crappy weather, and laying in the grass/mud on a buddy's private property (40 degrees and rain, but it was the only chance I had before hitting the wood line next week). The rifle comes equipped with a carbine weight buffer, I am looking forward to playing around with heavier buffers and springs to lighten the recoil (thought it isn't really necessary).

I tossed on an Aimpoint that I pulled from another zeroed AR to speed up zero time. I also tossed on an old KAC Sop-Mod buttstock (creature of habit).

The .450 Bushmaster is a FLAT shooting round! I launched my first round at 25 yards, made a mild adjustment and went straight to 100 yards. Shot three rounds, made another minor correction. Laying prone off a rubber block in the rain, with the Aimpoint, I confirmed a final three round group and called it a day!

The ACS Magazine that came with the rifle worked flawlessly. It isn't just a 20 round 5.56 mag with a different follower in it.


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Old November 14, 2018, 15:15   #11
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Considered all, now have two 458 SOCOM's and waiting for Form 1's to return to finish another pair. I run them 90% subsonic but plan on setting one up as a supersonic gun once get all four completed. Will most.likely be the longest barrel 458 SOCOM of the group. 330 grain Barnes TTSX are wicked destructive and a 550 grain JSP still makes huge energy at 1,050 fps plus the bottle neck design feeds and extracts very reliably even inna nasty rifle from suppressor blowback.
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Old November 14, 2018, 17:41   #12
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I have no experience with 450 Bushmaster and don't recall anything about it.

I have shot 458 SOCOM and 50 Beowulf, full auto as well. I expected both cartridges to shoot the same and was more interested in the 458 SOCOM thinking it would be cheaper to reload for. After shooting them I did not like the 458. It was obnoxious and just didn't feel right. The 50 Beowulf of course is a big thump of course but smooth and I liked shooting it. Myself with what I have seen I would buy the 50 Beowulf, but always open to new ideas.
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Old November 16, 2018, 09:15   #13
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While I am not a fan of anything made in the Philippines then branded with a big logo that says AMERICAN TACTICAL imports in a manner most see the AMERICAN very boldly and the "made in Philippines" only if you hunt for the fine print LGS has sold a boat load and never seem to have one of their AR 15 or scatter gun designs come back with any complaints and why always a few on the wall due to price point and getting folks out the door with a complete rifle instead of a lower and dreams of ordering internet parts. We have an ATI AR 15 on the wall right now in 450 Bushmaster that will go out the door for $599 all taxes included and probably a box or two of ammo with a little negotiating. I understand the 450 Bushmaster is deer legal in many states the 458 is not plus get a couple hundred more ft/lbs of energy but energy at subsonic velocity is my thumper goal.

Since my number one use for a thumper was subsonic suppressed have gone with 458 SOCOM and not looked back. Have a can waiting on a BATFE Form to come back that has a very good baffle design, two inch internal diameter and eight inch internal length. Have all my math done so that when form comes in can tack the can to an 8.5" barrel and have 16.1" from bolt face to end of can. Right now running subsonic through my AAC Hybrid can from a 10" 458 SOCOM it's quiet. So quiet that have been working on buffer and bolt noise as that along with sound of 400 to 550 ground bullets striking the target are my largest hurdles. Already got a lot of that worked out with a Tubbs Flatwire Spring, M16 Clinic buffer pad, lapping bolt run inside of upper and more. Still the AAC can is a bit overwhelmed but believe the new can is going to have enough internal volume and baffle design that will pretty much have bullet strike sound pressure being the loudest part of the system.

A 400 to 500 grain bullet at 1,050 fps does exactly what I want it to do. Now have more 6.8 spc II's than I can accurately count without going to the list which have all the horsepower I need in a poodle shooter running supersonic. The 300 BO is useless to me as it just doesn't have the juice subsonic to slay zombies with authority or carry any real energy full power and seen too many folks blow up 5.56 rifles with 5.56 headstamp converted 300 BO ammo even though it takes a lapse of reasoning seems to happen often. When I want a real thumper just grab one of my AR 10's in 338 Federal and they will thump the ever living crap out of about anything I need.

Had an excellent opportunity to go with 50 Beo when scored over 500 commercial cast, 300 commercial jacketed projectiles and several hundred cases in an estate deal but was able to sell the cases and projectiles for most parts needed to build another 458 and gave away the cast bullets here. As mentioned above for Gazz's benefit the big bores need different ejection port sizes to chunk out the shells. First one I built I opened up the port on my upper on my mill but since am using the DPMS heavy walled uppers with no forward assist or dust cover doors for extra meat in the uppers in case I decide to run a few mag loads of binary fire with full power ammo. Put a binary in one of my 458's and the one touch double taps are impressive even with subsonic. Brownell's sells the DPMS properly designed upper and a nice HPT/MPI shot peened bolt and carrier group for way cheap most of the time. Now have my fleet of 5.56 and 6.8 AR 15's which niche needs are filled by four 22 Noslers and soon to have four 458 SOCOM's and may call the poodle shooter game over except for occasional special builds and working at LGS.

For the OP who asked about building a 450 Bushmaster upper may want to carefully price all your build parts and may be able to buy a complete rifle for same price or within a hundred bucks and not have to move uppers and worry about gas system settings, buffer weight, etc. More an upper is moved the more steel pin on aluminum receiver wear is accelerated though it's a seldom discussed issue except with the precision shooting crowd.
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Old November 16, 2018, 15:28   #14
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Originally Posted by lockjaw View Post
I considered the cost of building a straight cased ammo rifle, but chose to buy a NIB Ruger AR-556 MRC in .450 Bushmaster. Cost was around $750. It is a well built rifle, and I appreciated the beefer bolt and chamber profile. the rifle also comes stock with a two stage trigger compared to RRA and Larue.

I found that building an upper would run me around $500, give or take, excluding shipping (and time). Taking into consideration the lower with decent trigger and Magpul furniture (… also a MIL-SPEC receiver extension), $750 was a good buy.

I was pleasantly surprised by how mellow the .450 Bushmaster round is to shoot! I really enjoyed zeroing it, despite crappy weather, and laying in the grass/mud on a buddy's private property (40 degrees and rain, but it was the only chance I had before hitting the wood line next week). The rifle comes equipped with a carbine weight buffer, I am looking forward to playing around with heavier buffers and springs to lighten the recoil (thought it isn't really necessary).

I tossed on an Aimpoint that I pulled from another zeroed AR to speed up zero time. I also tossed on an old KAC Sop-Mod buttstock (creature of habit).

The .450 Bushmaster is a FLAT shooting round! I launched my first round at 25 yards, made a mild adjustment and went straight to 100 yards. Shot three rounds, made another minor correction. Laying prone off a rubber block in the rain, with the Aimpoint, I confirmed a final three round group and called it a day!

The ACS Magazine that came with the rifle worked flawlessly. It isn't just a 20 round 5.56 mag with a different follower in it.
I have seen multiple flyers for the last several weeks where you could buy a 450 or 458 upper with the oversized ejection port receiver w/o bolt,carrier and charging handle for less then $200.

A couple of years ago, I made a promise to myself to not add any different cartridges to my reloading stable and I have been pretty good about keeping it. The "thumper" AR's have been my biggest temptation so far!

Still holding out, but sometimes I wonder why I hold out and then next I am wondering why the hell I want one....
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Old November 17, 2018, 07:06   #15
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I have seen multiple flyers for the last several weeks where you could buy a 450 or 458 upper with the oversized ejection port receiver w/o bolt,carrier and charging handle for less then $200.

A couple of years ago, I made a promise to myself to not add any different cartridges to my reloading stable and I have been pretty good about keeping it. The "thumper" AR's have been my biggest temptation so far!

Still holding out, but sometimes I wonder why I hold out and then next I am wondering why the hell I want one....
Based upon reviews, many of these inexpensive uppers and barrels are a gamble. It appears that a number of them come from a single source and rebranded, with many poor reviews. Then you still have to add $$$ or BCG (and a crap bolt can also sideline a build), lower ect., muzzle break, decent trigger, furniture, the Ruger for $750 pans out as a solid deal. The Ruger also comes with the beefier chamber and bolt with rounded lugs, which I have found to be a smart move.... it takes some energy to chamber that large round from.the magazine. I'm very pleased with my purchsse.... highly recommended.

Here in Michigan, we can only use straight case ammo during rifle season, hence popularity of .450 Bushy and .50 Beowolf.

I took a large doe night before last for the freezer.... .450 Bushy rocked.it. Blew the heart to pieces, made a mess of its shoulder at exit, leg hanging off by skin. Fielding Hornday Black.

Currently sitting in the blind waiting for a.buck!
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Old November 17, 2018, 13:56   #16
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Congratulations on your kill this year. I think you did yourself right with that Ruger purchase. A friend bought the Ruger bolt gun for hunting and was initially disappointed with it. Didn't like the plastic stock. Once he got the optics mounted and did the sight in, he was like "HEY!, this thing shoots".

Still couldn't convince him to run with it, though. He wanted me build him up an AR like the other guys. So with a new barrel and an assemblage of parts out of the parts bin, he got his wish. Tagged a nice nine point buck at 80 yards with it yesterday. He says he couln't understand wtf was going on. Hit it with a broadside shot and the buck did a little shiver then took a few more steps. Hit it again and it stopped and wobbled. Fired one more and it was lights out.

Last nights autopsy showed first shot took out bottom half of lungs. Following shot exploded heart. Third took out plumbing in it's neck. Damn thing was a zombie that didn't know it was dead. A little patience would have netted results after the first hit. This was his first experience with a semi-auto and he liked it a wee bit too much. It's nice to have quick follow up shots available, but damn, easy on the bullet hose.

Hunting ammo used was the Hornady black factory stuff. Performance was considered to be very efficient and effective by the troops. Comparison to the 12ga slug loads was described as every bit as deadly with the shotgun hollow point being more explosive internally. 450 wound channel was just as deadly but without excessive tissue damage to good meat when the hollow point falls appart.

Waiting for three more hunters to report in. Michigan season is off and running and 450 bushies are evrywhere.
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Old November 17, 2018, 15:17   #17
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My next door neighbor hunts with Remington 742 in 30-06 and does not stop shooting till deer hits ground or magazine runs dry. Most were dead upon first shot just not smart enough to fall down so got four more rounds scattered through bodies in the meantime so they look like hit by an A-10 tank buster with 1/2 the meat ruined. Won't recount shooting a deer with a 350 Rem Mag where 250 grain bullet entered chest/shoulder as almost facing me and exited the opposite rear hip turning all internal organs into soup and ruining shoulder, one side of ribs and rear quarter. Now quite happy dropping them with one shot into ear canal with my 22 Hornet. Only damage is trickle of blood from ear and their eyes bug out of their sockets.
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Old November 17, 2018, 15:44   #18
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I witnessed a head shot via a 7mm magnum. Shot was taken close range walking back to truck, and when partner fired at the head peeking through the brush, all I saw was the red mist explosion with both antlers flying off spinning in opposite directions. Damnedest thing I ever saw.
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Old December 27, 2018, 11:06   #19
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I just ordered a Bear Creek Arsenal 18" complete upper in .450 BM for deer hunting here in MI. In rethinking my bullet choice in my black powder rifle - which is what I hunt with in both firearm and BP seasons - I found talk of the .450 all over FB in an outdoor group. Looks good and looks to work well. A friend's wife took two bucks within a few minutes of each other with her .450 AR.

Looking forward to getting it sorted out and hunting with it next year. I'll hunt down a mag or two and find an optic to put on it, most likely a red dot or small magnification scope. I'll also be working up a new load for the BP rifle. I'm going to go to the Barnes Expander MZ 195 gr saboted bullets. I'm shooting a .45 cal that I want better terminal performance out of.
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Old December 28, 2018, 11:37   #20
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Reports back from the field covering the three 450 Bushies I built up for friends are all a thumbs up. Ranging shots taken from 40 to 180 yards and accuracy reported to be spot on. All hits were from either DRT to 50 yards and drop. Three nice bucks and then another full harvest for the doe cull season. DNR pushing for a much reduced deer herd to fight off that wasting disease threat.

Internal damage to organs was reported to be of the "train wreck" class to the targeted area, yet less tissue damage with surrounding muscle mass. Less blood trail was noted in some cases, but considering how far they could move after being hit, was not an issue. One shot taken passed through the boiler room and exited in shoulder blade area leaving devastating destruction to the joint as it passed through.

Michigan hunting requires a straight walled cartridge case for deer hunting. That's why 458 SOCOMs aren't used here. Scarcity of ammo and cost per round precludes the 50 Beowulf usage. 450, while not cheap, is still a bargain compared to those Winchester 12 gauge sabot slugs. Perfect meat on the table medicine for Michigan Whitetails.
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Old December 28, 2018, 11:51   #21
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I witnessed a head shot via a 7mm magnum. Shot was taken close range walking back to truck, and when partner fired at the head peeking through the brush, all I saw was the red mist explosion with both antlers flying off spinning in opposite directions. Damnedest thing I ever saw.
I love that stuff. Last six deer I have shot used a 22 Hornet into ear canal. They drop DRT with trickle of blood from ear and eyes bulge out. Neighbors don't even notice the Hornets.
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Old December 31, 2018, 14:37   #22
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I have the build at the shooting stage and took it to the range. First thing I find that it does not feed well, or should I say not at all, from the few AR magazines that I tried. The cartridge gets about halfway there and stops the bolt. I am shooting Xcaliber 300gr HRN JHP rounds and I did buy a proper upper receiver for the .458 with an enlarged ejection port as well as a .458 bolt anf carrier from Brownells. If I drop the magazine when the jam occurs, I can withdraw the bolt a bit and the cartridge straightens out and gets loaded properly when I let go the charging handle. I fired two rounds this way and the first ejected okay while the second got shoved back into the chamber so I have some unsticking to do. I will try a few more magazines but wonder if I need to do some feed ramp polishing. Rounds that have jammed and were not fired show a small flattened area on the bullet nose. Any ideas on what may fix this?
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Old December 31, 2018, 23:15   #23
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Pictures of the jam before cleared and deformed projectile on round after removed may help diagnose your issue.
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Old January 01, 2019, 11:46   #24
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Feed lip break in is probably the culprit causing issues. Sharp edges dragging on soft brass slows down the works considerably. Smooth edges will improve the loading process. Best magazine/follower combo to use is 10 round Lancer magazines with the Tromix aluminum follower. This will net you a four round magazine that works about the best of any ever used. Parts can be had from Tromix.com as well as a write up to optimize same. A little polishing of the underside of the feed lip edges helps reduce friction that inhibits smooth loading. Four rounds of those fat bodies precludes inserting a full mag into a closed bolt. Ar15s are just not made for these thumpers.
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Old January 02, 2019, 20:27   #25
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Got to the range for a bit today and tried a few more rounds through it. I did grind away part of the upper receiver feed ramp as it was taller than the one in the barrel extension and figured that can't be good - its all nice and smooth now. I have been putting only two rounds in a magazine to test and when I let the bolt go on the first round, it chambers just fine. The problem now seems to be an inability to eject a fired case as I'm getting stove pipe type failures. after getting home, I found the gas block to be a little loose so I maybe get short cycling from leaking gas. I'll try again tomorrow.
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Old January 02, 2019, 23:10   #26
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You did use an upper with oversize ejection port for the big thumpers? Unsure if that would cause feeding issues but will lead to ejection issues. I do all.the recommended tricks during build process based on lots of research before built my first thumper and all have worked fine with a bit of gas and buffer tweaking.
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Old January 03, 2019, 08:11   #27
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Yes, an upper receiver with the large ejection port specifically for the .458. I also thought about the buffer and spring and wondered if they might need any tweaking. What kind of gas tweaking are you speaking of? The lower I am using runs .223/5.56 just fine.
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Old January 04, 2019, 11:41   #28
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If feeding it plenty of gas then a heavy buffer may help slam those rounds home. What length barrel, what length gas and what is port size on barrel? Need to wrap brain around how much gas your feeding it in relationship to dwell time. If have a heavy buffer laying around or in another rifle give it a try. Two of mine have Slash Heavy Buffers.
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Old January 13, 2019, 15:29   #29
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I put the .458 upper on a carbine lower - adjustable stock and carbine buffer - with some success. Still trying with only two rounds in a magazine and both fed properly, fired and ejected but the bolt did not lock back on the empty magazine. The empties basically dribble out the ejection port and are right there on the bench. Glad I don't have to chase them but it needs more robust ejection I think. The gas port in the barrel is .086". Another two rounds in different magazine produced a failure to feed on the second round. The round was half in the feed ramp and half in the magazine with the bolt behind it. Are lighter buffer springs made or do I start lopping coils off? Actually, I think I need all the power in the buffer spring to help with feeding. More gas?
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Old December 22, 2019, 21:05   #30
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While these are made on the same swaging press I use most of the time most likely, know the swage dies come from them, dropping a grand just to mash a few 458 subsonic pills considering how many fairly priced can be found doesn't seem to be where I want to spend a grand on dies at the moment. Almost no cost cast get it done just fine in my 458 SOCOM at subsonic speeds as do the 550 grain JSPs have found fairly priced. Have enough high tech specialty 458 pills put back had about stopped looking for anything new feeling I had all my big fat subsonic bases covered.

Tripped across Outlaw State Bullets. Now this is some subsonic expansion from a 500 grain bullet at 1,050 fps muzzle velocity. Expanded to 0.750" and penetrated 29 inches of ballistic gelatin.



This 405 grain JHP impacted gelatin at 975 fps, expanded to 0.600" and penetrated 14" of a bullet test tube.



From companies website:
Quote:
530 grain bullet is constructed of a pure lead core that*is segmented in the nose of the bullet.*It has a*serrated*jacket that is*drawn*of guilding metal. The base of the bullet is a rebated boattail design. The nose is an open tip design. We dual diametered the shank which allows the bullet seating*closer to*magazine length.*

Upon impact the nose explodes.* This releases the four segmented mini cores into a radial pattern around the main projectile giving a MASSIVE wound.*This allows you a*better chance of destroying vitals.***Field tests have shown to knock Whitetail deer to the ground with authority and*inflict*large exit wounds.**This is achieved with a muzzle velocity 1050 fps.




When get that last pair of four total 458 SOCOM suppressed SBRs if start shooting them a lot then buying all the dies to make these bullets along with other designs possible such as can be done with the Corbon Sabre Tooth internal core punch die, X-Cut Die and others.

Here is a 218 grain 0.308" bullet made using Corbon dies by another bullet company with the Sabre Tooth internal punch die fired into Corbon Simuflesh. Velocity is 1,028 fps and getting 2x expansion from a 308. May need the Sabre Tooth die as can be used with a myriad of calibers and routinely mash out 0.308 bullets but not many subsonic due to poor performance thus have been buying Tubbs.



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Old December 23, 2019, 08:54   #31
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I have the big three and each has its pros and cons:
The .50 Beowulf was easy enough to get into becasue I was already shooting and loading .500 S&W, and Bear Creek was offering complete, side-charging uppers for a stupid low price I bit. Only issue I experienced was not seating the bullets deep enough causing them to stick in the rifling, preventing the bolt from closing. (was a pita to open the action too) Living in a "Ban State" we lock magazines into the receiver and load shotgun style; The ten round Mag-Pul magazines have no issues feeding the .50, SOCOM, or Bushmaster rounds.

The .458 socom is really my favorite: fey years ago a friend gave me five or six boxes of Hornady 500gr. FMJ/RN Bullets and seated deep they look like .45acp Ball, and let me tell you they hit HARD! If you like shooting 45/70 Govt. (which I do) it's about the same...the Barns X-Bullets cause vaporization of whatever they hit, so I don't recommend shots into meat areas. Additionally, this rifle was assembled from Parts...easy enough.

.450 Bushmaster: Like the Beowulf, it's a straight walled cartridge, feeds very well from the Plastic Mag-Pul Magazines (doesn't scratch/scar the cases) shoots as well as the other two, has the advantage or disadvantage depending on how you see it of using .452 "Pistol Bullets" which open up better at lower velocities.

Brass: Besides picking up stuff here and there, I ordered Starline cases through Midway, get on Alexander Arms website; sometimes they offer "once fired" for a really good price and are reasonable with new brass and ammo.

Next on the "build one" list is .350 Legend, and now I find out there's a .358 (.350 uses .355 bullets same as a 9mm and the .358 uses .357) suppose I'll have to do both now.
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Old December 23, 2019, 11:37   #32
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I had to give up chasing one of everything due to my need to hoard thousands of rounds of ammo per cartridge own. My rule is when finish a build if it's a new cartridge to order 2,000 rounds minimum. If is a cartridge already own order 1,000 and have another 1,000 on the way next good sale. I like to have a minimum of 5,000 to 10,000 rounds per military style rifle in the fleet. Built five 6.8 spc IIs in a single month and luckily found a bunch of unfired pulled factory brass along with 90 grain Gold Dots and new TNTs cheap. Loaded 25,000 rounds as 6.8 was a reasonably new cartridge for me at the time and found myself with eight rifles and only 5,000 rounds of XM68GD. By time I had built my tenth 6.8 had 50,000 rounds and added 1,000 per build and just ordered 800 factory loaded 115 grain hollow points over the weekend as still not reached 10,000 per rifle due to new rifles sprouting.

With specialty rifles like 22 Nosler where I have been told by my preferret barrel profiler that a 22 Nosler barrel is accurate for 2,000 rounds and then a high velocity shorter range armor puncher for another 1,000 then replace barrel. Only feel the need to hoard 2,000 rounds per 22 Nosler build but have five now. 458 SOCOM should last forever as subsonic guns except bolts and possibly carriers plus buffers/springs. So easy to cast for am happy if have 1,000 thumping loads and 1,000 low pressure cast loads per rifle.

This was a reason I dropped 204 Ruger. Tiny pills that had no mass, the wind played havoc with them and bore life was short. Had two 204 Ruger and a pair of 20 Practicals, pulled barrels and bolts on each then rebuilt into something else selling the 0.204 barrels and all ammo. 5.56 and 6.8 have tremendous bore life and match barrels have 5,000 round match life and another 5,000 as a practice rifle. Have seen good melonite barrels in 5.56 tested to 20,000 rounds then split on a band saw to discover still had decent throat and good bores.

6.5 Grendels broke bolts and had moderate bore life so they were torn down and rebuilt into durable cartridges. As much as I love quarter bores I sold off the barrels of both 25-45 Sharps due to fact they never gained popularity. Tore down my 277 Wolverines because not much better than 6.8 spc II, ammo was unobtainable and had lower bore life. Same with 300 OSSM but have not sold barrels, brass, ammo and dies yet as may need a hotrod 30 caliber AR 15 some day. Have built, shot and then torn down to pass along a passel of wildcats but am strongly considering either a 358 Yeti (concerned about bolt breakage) and 375 SOCOM which can launch heavy subs or flatter shooting full power loads than 458 SOCOM.

During Sandy Hook and other shortages discovered the guy with a rifle, pile of spare magazines and case of ammo didn't have to even price an AR or AK. Since most people couldn't find even one of the three components needed much less all I had to be careful not to oversell. Had AR 15 packages with a lower grade factory new rifle, ten magazines and 1,000 rounds of factory ammo. People would ask "how much?" to which I replied "what will you give" with both of us seeing the crowd begin to gather around in parking lot of LGS or gun show and buyer would spout out a number that usually stunned me and it was theirs. Same with my AK, six mags and 600 round tin of ammo. I never had to counter an offer or ask a person to raise their offer.

Since they had been looking for a month or more and not found a rifle yet nor ammo and mags seeing a NIB rifle with sealed case of factory ammo and stack of mags usually offered me several hundred dollars over what I was willing to take. Guys with rifles were all running out of ammo. Guys with reloading equipment were running out of components. People with nothing could not put a package together and finally my wife advised me to slow down selling my preban AKs which still have value especially in ban states.

Now I have majority of ARs in 223/5.56 and all resale rifles are $499 NIB factory rifles with ten P mags and 1,000 rounds put back. I know my rifles are scrap metal without ammo so when finish the 5,000 round run of 6.8 have 20,000 5.56 cases prepped and 10,000 cases of 7.62×51 prepped. Have over two dozen 5.56 AR builds and over 30,000 rounds of handloads along with about same in various milsurp flavors. In 1999 purchased a 55,000 round pallat of IMI green tip of which I still have about half and never quit buying more. Purchased 2,000 rounds of M855 green tip and 4,000 rounds of M193 ball snice Black Friday. My goal is have minimum of half a rifles rated lifespan in ammo loaded and ready. Also try to have enough components to reload enough to finish it's life off and maybe a spare barrel/bolt or two along with enough ammo to sell/trade if price leaps high enough without getting into my personal stash for myself and my heirs. Whoever inherits these rifles will need ammo. My Colts am not concerned with mega quantities of ammo for collector rifles.

When finish rifles on bench will have two dozen 6.8s and load all my prepped cases am up to about 45,000/50,000 rounds of mixed factory and handloads 6.8 ammo. 50,000 rounds sounds like a lot but it's only 2,000 per rifle and have had many days fired 2,000 rounds at the range in one day. Like my 5.56 rifles am now trying to get up around 10,000 rounds per 6.8 plus a reasonable hoard of components as when I retire and living on a fixed income ordering several thousand rounds of ammo won't be as easy. Need it all ready when retirement time comes and out shooting rather than working. Need enough rifles all heirs have a couple and can subsidize my retirement in event of runaway inflation hits.

Looking at rounds per rifle having over a dozen different cartridges in AR 15s and half dozen in AR 10s consolidated the fleet. Thus single flavors of ammo can be shared across more rifles. Have six AR 15 cartridges and four AR 10 cartridges and trying not to add many if any. I can build more 5.56 and 6.8 (especially with military going to 6.8) and let the rounds per rifle count flex as rifles finish and find sales on ammo or components. My goal is by age 60 to have enough ammo and components to shoot several days per week till age 90. That's 30 years of ammo I need along with some for the heirs who inherent the rifles. Are a dozen AR 15s any good for your kids or grand kids if you didn't leave them any ammo and the liberals have added a $3 per round tax to ammo? Will they be able to fire $100 per magazine loads of ammo?

Add a rifle, add ammo for it. Shoot ammo, order more. Don't get caught in a Sandy Hook where it all disappears in a week and dot gov adds taxes to point where nobody but the rich and government employees can afford to shoot before the panic stabilizes. I was afraid Obama was going to push the Firearms & Family Safety Act through with 50% in new ammo taxes and 20% in firearms taxes. They can't abolish the Second Amendment but they can add taxes to point most of us won't be able to buy more than fifty rounds of ammo per month or year. Less cartridges is less to support which ammo can't be shared.
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Old December 23, 2019, 12:23   #33
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I just finished a 350 Legend build on a 12.5 barrel with a XM-177 type moderator permanently attached for 16 inch legality. Looks and feels just like my XM-177 carbine. Came out pretty nice looking, but have not been to the range with it yet. Took a bad tumble that has me laid up for the time being.

Was walking the dog down the ramp in front of the house early before breakfast and fell victim to black ice from frozen fog that morning. Neighbor across the street said it looked like Popeye's Olive Oil on ice skates with all the flailing arms and legs. Took out my right knee and exacerbated my lumbar issues. Face plant on handrail worthy of a baseball bat to the head left me with a sizeable knot over left eye. Damn! That hurts plenty.
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Old December 23, 2019, 12:58   #34
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Next on the "build one" list is .350 Legend, and now I find out there's a .358 (.350 uses .355 bullets same as a 9mm and the .358 uses .357) suppose I'll have to do both now.
Tiz a sickness, “just one (or two) more”.
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Old December 23, 2019, 18:23   #35
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You know it's a sickness when you own more AR 15 rifles than your buddies have AR 15 magazines. Last quick count (they go in log book as receivers then built as finished) looking down my serial number list which has all firearms in order of date acquired had 26 5.56 builds, 21 6.8 spc II builds, five 22 Nosler builds, four 458 SOCOM builds and a pair of 5.7×28s. That's 38 ARS built and still somewhere in the house, at work or in a truck. When give a rfile away it comes off the list. This count does not include factory built rifles as have ten to twelve Colts from late 1960's SP1s to ban period LEO Colts.

EDIT:
Forgot the vault with two dozen 13.7" and 14.7" milspec M4 clones for eventual give away in above count. And below factory rifle counts.

Have at least a dozen Smith M&P 15 forward assist and six slick sides all in original boxes but also have two M&P 15 forward assist rifles that have tweaked to my specifications after testing in factory trim that technically should go onto the "build" count. Have a half dozen DPMS AR 15s all in original boxes for future consideration as to what happens with them but also have one that like the two Smiths bought extra for testing in factory trim then modifying to fit my personal desires.

The Colts almost never get shot, the modified Smiths and DPMS are used a fair amount but 90% of my poodle shooting is done with total ground up home builds as most are purpose built for a specific job or built as very flexible do all rifles. Right now have three more 6.8s almost finished, another 22 Nosler almost done and two more 5.56 builds almost done. Today did all the work I had to finish before end of year at the shop and realized I had a solid two hours to kill and still leave before 4:30 to beat the few people riding the 5:00 pm clock grid locking the roads through center of Mayberry.

Looked at all the builds and all needed parts Cerakoted or detailed fitting and it's too humid to spray anything from an HVLP plus didn't feel like hunting up tooling needed for any of the "builds" in process. Recently picked up another pair of DPMS Oracle AR 10s with 16" barrels with plan to add one to my NIB AR 10 hoard and use the other for a quick and easy modification as a house gun. Have pulled two apart, squared front of upper receiver then put both back together using free float forearms with factory 16" barrel on one and aftermarket 18" on the other. Both have suppressor adapters and binary triggers.

Used my spare time today to remove the binary trigger from the 18" barreled DPMS and replaced with a Hiperfire 24E. Took the binary pulled from it and put in the one pulled out of the box today along with swapping the flash hider with a suppressor adapter. Now it is exactly like the other 16" except the front of receiver has not been squared and free float forearm added. Want to break this one in and see just how much if any accuracy squaring front of receiver and addition of a free float forearm added as that is now only difference between the two. Both have same binary triggers, suppressor adapters and rest is factory except for the one that has been squared and free floated.

While do not like 16" 7.62×51 MBRs learned with my short gas, short barrel FAL a 16" 308 makes a great suppressor rifle. Just the extra two inches to an 18" barrel and it's noticeable in how the rifle handles. So now in AR 10s in ground up builds have a pair of 338 Federals, pair in 6XC and a single in 6.5 Creedmoor with parts in house for three more premium 6.5C builds once I clear all the AR 15 projects on bench. So now I have five ground up AR 10 builds and three modified factory rifles. Will be eight builds when get all the parts that have arrived in past month together into complete rifles.

Like AR 15s have a growing pile of NIB DPMS Oracle AR 10s that will be to decide their fate as market changes or grow closer to meeting Jesus and heirs will decide though there are many people (quite a few who came through my Boy Scout hunter safety courses and marksmanship training who have not really more than swapped "hellos" in grocery or church have rifles tagged with their names) who will get letters from my lawyers saying they need to come in as some old geezer left them something from his estate. Already know who is getting 44 years of reloading equipment gifted to him. Good kid in mid twenties now see at church and the range who loads a lot of ammo using a single RCBS Rock Chucker kit with uniflow powder measure. He and wife recently had their first kid and plan for another so doubt buying enough reloading equipment to fill two rooms is not in his plans till kids stop requiring his money or gets a few promotions and since wife had her accident he has stopped coming to use my equipment though told him it's o.k. but every couple weeks his wife has him stop a cassarole by to help take some of the cooking burden off me.

Since wife flipped truck end over end, cut a utility pole in half causing the truck to start rolling rather than flipping and spent a week in the trauma unit after coming out of ICU while in coma and flat lining randomly. First three months out of hospital I could not leave her unattended and she required help getting to bathroom for first six months. Add in work and my building, reloading and shooting slowed though did get a good bit of loading the three months was mostly at home and she was sleeping. A lot of my shooting buddies, ham radio friends and church family really stepped up. One ham radio friends son came and kept the shop clean entire time (still stops by once a week or so.) and would not take a dime. People like that will get hooked up if the hoard is not sold to pay bills if I live longer than planned for as if live past 94 money will get tight if don't sell guns.
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Last edited by hueyville; January 04, 2020 at 19:32.
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Old December 23, 2019, 22:43   #36
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(Trim)
Was walking the dog down the ramp in front of the house early before breakfast and fell victim to black ice from frozen fog that morning. Neighbor across the street said it looked like Popeye's Olive Oil on ice skates with all the flailing arms and legs. Took out my right knee and exacerbated my lumbar issues. Face plant on handrail worthy of a baseball bat to the head left me with a sizeable knot over left eye. Damn! That hurts plenty.
Sounds like me and ladders. I work on ladders every day. My most used ladder is a five for Werner double step A-Frame. Have a 4', 5', 6', 8', 10' all in double step A-Frames then 10', 12" and 14' in single step A-Frames, 18', 22' and 28' extension ladders all in insulated fiberglass so don't fry myself working on electrical devices. Ever since the deer ran out in front of my motorcycle resulting in a tibia/fibula double compound spiral fracture have a titanium rod from knee to ankle in left tibia, three titanium plates holding left fibula together with 13 screws scattered about holding all the hardware together.

Take the lumbar and S.I. joint spinal injuries have Sciatica from low back running down left leg all the way to my ankle and from hip to my knee in right leg. It is very common for me to look well, tell my foot where to go but the signal gets scrambled between brain and foot causing it to go a few inches in a different direction than aimed and miss a ladder rung. Taller the ladder the more careful I am and seldom have issues on extension ladders till been on one for hours and on way down when get almost to the ground stop paying as close attention and being sure foot is placed before weighting and foot goes between the rungs and I fall backwards onto my tail bone or lower back.

Same with my 4' and 5' ladders are super strong with wide steps on both sides and trying to get one or two extra jobs done or its wet and I hit edge of step instead of center causing foot to slide off sending myself and my tools tumbling. Fell off the top step of the five foot ladder in February and following the MRIs had a total of three additional ruptured disks with 7mm to 11mm tears and three additional slipped disks and a half dozen other new injuries I can't spell or even pronounce. Once you blow the spine out once then your likelihood to injure it again goes up.

Scrambled lumbar and thoracic spine originally in two MVAs where I was rear ended by house wives texting and driving. First was lady in Suburban who had her cruise control on 45 mph and was paying so close attention to phone she didn't see me stopped at light and never touched her brakes. Investigating officer downloaded that information from her on board flight computer. Second woman was driving a Taho and rear ended me at a stop sign scrambling my thoracic spine. Fractured my skull and broke my neck twice once in MVA where woman ran off road and hit me working just off the right of way. Second time I fell off a tower fracuring skull again and rebreaking C2 and C3 cervical vertebrae.

Saw a dozen surgeons of which six wanted to do three spinal fusions, two wanted to do two and one only the lumbar. By then I had gotten to head of brain and spine at Emory, Piedmont and Shepard Spinal Center. All three of the top dog surgeons said way I worked and played if did three spinal fusions would refracture a fusion every couple to few years and have to get it redone and be worse. Recommended I do P.T. and these regular nerve blocks as long as able to stand pain. Been 13 years since first injury that three doctors said I was ruined, needed surgery and would never go back to my type work, mountain climbing or lifting anything heavier than a gallon of milk much less shooting large bore rifles.

Kept getting opinions till reached top of the ladder of spinal doctors and the three best agreed no invasive surgery and I keep chugging along. Have a nerve block day after Christmas and another in January but will keep doing the blocks if allow me to stay in the game. That said worse back gets the more I hurt it. Had I gone for three fusions between 2007 and 2011 most likely would be cripple now due to snapping all the hardware they used to fuse those areas together a time or two. Good luck on healing, it's always the dumb stuff that takes us out. Can't be something spectacular like lifting a bus off a dozen trapped kids saving their lives. It's usually just trying to wait on a light or trying to walk that takes us out.
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Old December 24, 2019, 12:01   #37
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Sounds like me and ladders. I work on ladders every day.

Good luck on healing, it's always the dumb stuff that takes us out. Can't be something spectacular like lifting a bus off a dozen trapped kids saving their lives. It's usually just trying to wait on a light or trying to walk that takes us out.
Thanks for the well wishes, Huey. Retired as an electrician and spent many hours on ladders and climbing way up in the steel pulling heavy cables and such. Spinal injuries is what happens doing heavy work out of position at weird angles. Plenty of dumb stuff on motorcycles too. Each little incident just adds more to the agony.
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Old December 24, 2019, 18:19   #38
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Thanks for the well wishes, Huey. Retired as an electrician and spent many hours on ladders and climbing way up in the steel pulling heavy cables and such. Spinal injuries is what happens doing heavy work out of position at weird angles. Plenty of dumb stuff on motorcycles too. Each little incident just adds more to the agony.
Why I kill deer like ground hogs and coyote around here just another varmint. Wife and I grew used to hitting them in our trucks but when one ran out in front of my motorcycle resulting in majority of left leg from knee down being titanium I lost all humanity and went from hunting in season to getting a permit for legal murder.

Easter before last were getting ready for sunrise service when wife was stung by something. Popped her with an Epi Pen which got her back to breathing and color went from purple to red and white striped like a candy cane. She was swollen so bad looked like the Michelin man before got the Epi Pen but after was still so swollen was considering 911. Asked her where her liquid benedryl was and said she was out. When went to to get a bottle out of my kit she told me had used all mine previous fall when got in a nest of ants and didn't tell me had taken all from my kit. She has a tendency to use my med kits like a drug store and if I don't do regular inventory to see what's missing it's gone when really need it.

Hopped in truck to go to closest 24/7/365 drug store and when turned out of driveway into road about time went from 1st gear to 2nd gear had one deer run out of neighbors yard on our side of street and hit truck right in front of rearview mirror and at same time had a second come from across the street and hit me in the passenger side rear quarter panel. Turned in yard once and we're six deer in front yard that panicked. One ran into side of my parked half ton 4×4, another ran full speed into chainlink fence, third ran into passenger door of truck I was driving and the other three kept running in circles as the others got up and tried to figure out how to get out of the gate.

At least one or two mornings a month call the county road deprtment to come gather up dead deer in ditch in front of house or laying against fence. Before make it the 1/2 mile to first turn there is a dead deer on side of the road more mornings than not and immediately call the county DOT barn. They much prefer to come get them immediately rather than after have layed in sun till after lunch and started swelling or late afternoon and buzzards already hAve them chewed full of holes.

In fall and winter when I shoot them have a list of people that want them for freezer. In summer if in my or neighbors back yard he buries with his backhoe and if in front yard drag close to road and call DOT. I leave house, drive 5/8 mile on two lane and turn left on divided four lane. About a mile down four lane is my insurance company and they have a rack in break room where usually four to six agents/employees have bows at the ready during season. If they see a deer it's a race to the rack and they will team stalk a deer if don't just shoot it grazing in their front yard.

They used to be in the county but the city has annexed property to within a half mile of my house. Now hunting allowed with guns in the city and our area has become overrun with deer. Most evenings during last two miles of drive home will see half dozen to a dozen deer grazing in median and sides of road. My neighbors and I areally sick of hitting them in our vehicles. My agent says they have a deer strike claim within a mile either direction from their office several days a week and they are just a small agency for farmers.

I shoot most of them in the ear with a 22 Hornet. They drop like struck by lightning and nothing but a trickle of blood out their ear though sometimes their eyes pop out of their skulls. Shot one with my 458 SOCOM using a subsonic 550 grain JSP and exit hole looked like it was shot with a cannon. Guy who came and got him said their ws no usable meat in opposite shoulder area from entrance hole. Said heart and lungs were mush. Closest thing have ever seen to it was when shot a deer using a Remington 700 in 350 Rem Mag. Just ruined the deer.

The best part of so many deer and year round permit is get to test ammo on living medium game regularly. Learned a M855A1 projectile loaded to maximum velocity in a 22 Nosler will ruin a deer as well. The penetrator goes straight through blowing bone into shrapnel and the rest of the bullet comes apart in petals going every direction doing damage for about six to ten inches. Where the penetrator stops have no idea. 90 grain Gold Dots in a 6.8 spc II may be the perfect deer harvesting cartridge/bullet combination. It's 50/50 based on angle of entry and how much distance bullet has to travel. If shoot in shoulder get a solid thumb size entry hole and fist size exit. If shoot in chest the bullet will be found somewhere in the rear end, usually in a hip and has expanded to 2x of its original diameter. A 6.8 90 grain TNT destroys too much meat so can't use them in winter.

Neighbors on either side have sizeable gardens which Game and Fish gave us permits to shoot any deer in the crops or approaching/leaving the crops. Off the record Game and Fish along with DOT and Corp of Engineers have told us more we kill the better. So many deer have moved in since city annexed so much property that buffers up to farm land and the lake deer have moved in as bad a Mexicans in Los Angeles. DOT has asked the city to allow them to hire a professional hunting group to thin the herd but they don't want rifles (even with suppressors) used and a bunch of men with bows hasn't thinned them yet.

I could kill many more than I do but if it's warm have to call neighbor with backhoe and see if he has time to come bury it and he only has time one to two times per ten calls. Winter I start having people on the list tell me freezers are full between what they shoot and I shoot. We even had them shut down our Hunters for the Hungry program where we could drop off field dressed deer only take deer processed by an approved plant. If pay to process the deer it's not going to them and now it's shut down but have eleven new deer donation drop off processors in Georgia and three are close. Have actually overwhelmed them when rolled in with three or four trucks loaded with field dressed deer. Nice day I can easily kill six to ten from my back deck or side patio.

That is too many deer to coexist with when ride motorcycles. Recently a guy riding a bicycle was injured badly when a deer that had been spooked ran into him. Between work, public highways (mixed with deer and people text messaging), sports that can ocasionally beat a person up life is tough. We are sick of deer, squirrel, coyote and chipmunks. Reason I have been building so many precision 10/22s is for sniping chipmunks. Between their small size and quick speed sniping chipmunks is good practice for the day a quick snap shot may be necessary to defend yourself.
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Old January 04, 2020, 18:56   #39
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Got my brother a Rock River SOCOM upper a few years back - he hunts hogs, and wanted a thumper. With 41P, he went to suppress all the things, and got a .458 suppressor. I finally gave him some subsonic ammo to test w/ as a groomsman gift. He was greatly disappointed it was louder subsonic than his suppressed 7.62x39mm supers.

.458 SOCOM has the advantage that it will run out of unmodified aluminum AR mags - so if we're looking @ a mag ban, then having lots of 10 round .458 SOCOM mags on hand would be very handy. It also runs .458" bullets, which are relatively easy to find in large grain weights.

.450 Bushmaster has the advantage that it's a straight wall case, which gets it around some anti-rifle hunting restrictions - but my mild interest in a 50 state thumper has been eclipsed by Winchester's new straight-walled .350 Legend, which should satisfy any deer sized requirements.

.50 Beowulf is just a .50" to be a .50". If you already have a .50 GI, AE, & BMG, then clearly you need a Beowulf.

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Old January 04, 2020, 19:41   #40
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What suppressor did he use? I have two 8.5" 458 SOCOMs with oversize fat 8" long suppressors built buy small suppressor company that have my rifles launching 550 grain jacketed soft point subsonics quiet as a church mouse. Suppressors are pinned so have full 16" rifles without paying $200 SBR tax. Have another pair of 8.5" 458 SOCOMs and a 10.5" 458 waiting for money to pin cans to them permanently. Before Obama messed up Trusts and 41P I purchased a dozen new suppressors leading up to the time limit. Is your brother running his suppressor dry or wet? I run mine wet as greatly reduces sound signature. Not all cans can be run wet so be sure to check with maker before you blow up an expensive can.
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Old January 04, 2020, 20:27   #41
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If I'm not mistaken, he's running a Titanium Lane dry. .458 is a big hole & SOCOM has a lot of gas, so not too surprising it's still loud. He's hunting pigs in the field, so not too easy to stop & fill up a suppressor w/ cream.

I wouldn't say Obama screwed up trusts w/ 41F - I'd say he achieved his goal of legalizing SBRs in his home state of Illinois. There's now additional paperwork associated w/ trusts, but now you just do one trust per item, easy peasy. And hundreds of jack-booted police chiefs and sheriffs can no longer say boo about an individual stamp.
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Old January 05, 2020, 00:43   #42
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And total quiet is not required hunting pigs at night. Only suppressor a Google search is pulling up on Lane and 458 is the Lane Scorpion 458 which their website and resellers all say still testing or not available on dB reduction. I also have an AAC tiRant 45 that has 33 dB dry and 41 dB reduction wet. My custom made cans are quieter than my tiRant dry or wet. The tiRant short is 21 dB dry and 28dB wet. I have two AAC 762SDN and two 762SDN-6 cans and the extra 1.75" is significantly different. A 3dB reduction means you have halved the sound signatureally but honestly would say with most of my cans the sound signature is halved if run them wet. I only run wet cans with subsonic ammo as the sonic crack of full power ammo defeats the purpose of a wet can and subsonic ammo plus a wet can and full power ammo is rumored to overpressure some cans. Check and see if running your can wet voids it's warranty before you try it and then do what suits you.

Many suppressors have what is known as First Round Pop (FRP) where first round is louder and each successive round will lower in tone a bit. I use a quick spray of WD40 in front of my cans if want to drop sound at range or just a tad of water sprayed in from snout using a spray bottle or pouring a cap from your water bottle in. Water is not something game or varmints are going to smell like a blast of WD40. When pig hunting I would start wet and let the can increase its bark as burns off the tad of water once your slicing up a group of hogs. When things chill and looking for next group another quick shot of water to deaden first round pop and as fire more rounds the hogs know crap has hit the fan anyway but that first round or two of much quieter operation adds some advantage.

I have used silencer gel, wire pulling gel and all sorts of mixtures and sprays. I know folks that will fill a can full of water but seems to me the mess from black nasty water spraying is no fun or advantage. If I were prepping to go on a mission from an operators perspective would probably coat the baffles in my can with gel before left the base and probably not use anymore as once in field and burn off your first baffle load the bad guys know your there and fighting is more important than playing with your can. Unless you had time to spit some water from your water bladder into muzzle during a mag swap. My cans that are easy to open are more likely to see gel on occasion but sealed and pinned cans get WD40 or water. I have used and like dB Foam but to use it a lot is expensive and it's funny how a man will whine about the cost of his suppressor wetting material in a $1,500 rifle with $1,000 scope and $700 suppressor running the best ammo can buy like $5 per round Tubbs Absolute 2 Hole.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...uring-db-foam/

Gels are more of a pain to clean but water will cause nitric acid to format in can so be sure to flush it clean after use. If dissolve a little baking soda in your suppressor water before use it will help reduce the formation of acid. At the range or general shooting I run my cans dry. If out in the world taking a shot in a sound sensitive area will use closest thing at hand to wet my suppressors. If shoot dry I leave them alone till they are noticeably nasty. If shoot wet will drop in ultrasonic cleaner for a bit. For my upperson with suppressor pinned to barrel have an adjustable strap that suspends upper from ceiling so suppressor is suspended in ultrasonic without actually touching bottom but fully submerged.
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Old January 05, 2020, 10:47   #43
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I have wondered about using a bike inflator w/ CO2 cylinder to overcome FRP for some time.
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Old January 20, 2020, 17:10   #44
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Guys am ready to do my next pair of 458 cans but need some help. Looking for AR 15 handguards with largest internal diameter I can find. A 2.0" to 2.25" inside diameter would be great. The next two will be 8.5" barrels and plan on building or having cans built 8.5" long so once they are threaded onto barrel to shoulder and tack welded or pinned have a 16.25" to 16.5" length from bolt face to end of can. Would not mind if front cap of can was recessed to flush with tube and threaded so could open can and dump baffles for cleaning and coating with suppressor gel to reduce FRP and allow them to run quieter till burn up the gel.

Have a friend who is a chemical engineer working for Shell Oil and explained the concept of suppresors, use of different liquids and gels to reduce sound signature who says he can model how different additives may allow gels to last longer before burning off and not affect suppressor with any corrosion issues and possibly make it easier to clean, run quieter and possibly even cooler. Hopefully he can use that Georgia Tech/North Atlanta Trade School degree for something worthy. Adopted son has a degree in mechanical engineering from NATS as well and have him using his time when worked on exhaust system design for Cummins to look at photos of common commercial cans which need a CNC mill to make baffle to various home brew designs from freeze plugs to fuel filters and see if he can design me an easy to build and quiet Form 1 can.

Meanwhile am talking with two local suppressor companies about building me Form 4 cans that I just write the check and piggyback their research and tooling. Have told both I want biggest and fattest can I can keep OAL to 16.5" max and fit under factory handguards. What are the fattest handguards you guys have?
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Old January 20, 2020, 20:31   #45
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Quote:
What are the fattest handguards you guys have?
the Yankee Hill handguard I have on my AR-45 is the biggest I have ever seen, did not realize how big it is until after delivered


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Old January 20, 2020, 22:18   #46
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1.75" I.D. is close. Have two AR 15 with handguards (no rails of M-Lok/Key-Lok) that really just knurled aluminum tunes with 1.93" I.D. which would allow for a 1.75" O.D. suppressor and are 15" long so would only leave last inch or so of suppressor exposed. Would like to find something even if carbon fiber had a 2.25" I.D. could build a can with a full 2" O.D.
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Old January 21, 2020, 05:47   #47
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When I built my Beowulf, it was the cheapest of the AR big bores. The barrel was inexpensive and came with a bolt, and the empty brass was less than it was for the .458 and .450. .500/.501 bullets are a bit more expensive than .458 or especially .451/.452, but I built it with intention of casting my own, so that was a wash.
I used a standard upper and opened the ejection port with my mini mill. A Dremel would work too, if necessary.
I probably have just a bit over $500 in the whole rifle. Still don't have a FH on it, though. All of them were expensive in that size.
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Old January 21, 2020, 12:15   #48
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I mainly shoot cast through my 458 SOCOMs but for defemsive/offensive ammo really like the huge selection of specialized projectiles made in 458 which are designed for deep penetration at subsonic velocity, others designed to fracture and send fragments every direction even subsonic plus 500 grain and heavier JSP and JHPs designed to expand at 1,050 fps and slower. Have fired some of the LeHigh fracturing projectiles into sculpters clay at velocities slow as 650 fps and they still did as designed with the center penetrator going deep and the pre-cut petals still scattered.

My decision was based to choose the 458 SOCOM as my big bore subsonic thumper solely based on fact it had a lot of government dollars spent on design and needs of a combat operator. This gives me the ability to keep them loaded with $2.50 per piece specialty projectiles when sitting next to bed for home defense or lob cast bullets which many are fired into my bullet traps then later remelted and recast thus not even the cost of scrap wheel weights or linotype figured into cost of projectiles.
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Old January 23, 2020, 12:17   #49
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Huey, it is a expensive switch but have you looked at

https://www.deltapdesign.com

they are short length large diameter but you cannot take them apart to clean, they are 3D printed and very expensive
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Old January 24, 2020, 00:16   #50
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I have been looking at 3D printed suppressors for over two years. At first the Inconnel type materials were all that was available and now they are 3D printing using titanium. Have seen cross sectioned units and the baffle chambers are complex but for size and performance they are super high speed/low drag. Have seen some hearing safe full auto version from other manufacturers. Delta P Designs won't show cross sections and would have to buy one then cut it yourself to see their design and be sure their competition has.

With prices starting at a grand currently I just can't see it. With 3D printing of exotic materials becoming moreally common in a few years we will likely see such suppressors in the $500 to $700 range or even less based on how fast they can print them. The Firearms Blog reviewed them and said compared to several other traditional suppressors it was quieter than some but louder than a SIG 7.62 can. These are going to evolve quickly and performance will improve but price if doesn't fall won't get higher so not jumping on too soon.

Since 8.5" is close to optimum length for 458 SOCOM need for a super compact suppressor to pin to barrel is counterproductive as would have to get an SBR stamp wasting $200. Pinning an 8" can on an 8.5" barrel still is a compact rifle considering the massive 8" suppressor. I am sure inside of about five years there will be some big players jump in the game, drive the price down and performance up while the size remains small so it's a waiting game for me on them. I can buy $299 5.56 cans and pin to 10.5" and 11.5" barrels to get my 16" and skip the SBR stamps.

Have built a fair number of rim fire cans and have one Form 1 multicaliber can built with applications to build one more 30 caliber and one 338. Basically build a 30 caliber can and spin it on 6.8, 7mm or 7.62 then pin if needed. Am considering doing a pair of Form 1 cans for my last pair of 458 SOCOMs but still negotiating with local suppressor companies about fairly priced cans that when subtract my time and labor are not much more expensive than home brew and have the resources of true suppressor companies with engineers and good machinists working on the product versus my "best effort".

When need smaller I just twist a quick change can on one of my AR pistols. This 8.5" piston drive 6.8 spc II with fast twist barrel to handle subsonic or full power 6.8 ammo is pretty small and built for about the price of just a 3D printed suppressor. Uses Superlative Arms piston kit which dumps all the extra gas that enters block forward from vent hole in block and unlike many DI pistols running cans stays clean a fair amount of time and is not bad about dumping gas in operators face even with 4" long brace. Its shorter with one of my AAC 762SDN-6 cand by a couple iniches or so. Was running a bigger can to test wit no hearing protection this day. Even from an 8.5" bare the 6.8 still delivers a significant thumping. I will be on the 3D bandwagon soon as performance and math shows them surpassing a traditional can by enough to justify price difference.

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