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Old March 07, 2020, 14:17   #1
ftierson
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AR accuracy

Given the seeming diversity/variability in what we all think about what the term 'accuracy' means with ARs (and I'm especially thinking expensive vs cheap here), I thought that a thread dedicated to this 'discussion' was appropriate.

Up front, I admit that I have my own biases here, especially since I have dozens of 'cheap' PSA uppers on 'cheap' Anderson lowers that I am very happy with...

Of course, 'happy with' revolves around what we expect from our rifles, and there seem to be great differences in our expectations related to that...

While I'm somewhat pressed for time at the moment, I'll be back...

Please feel free to share your comments on all this (as if you need my permission to do so, of course, but I'm sure that goes without saying ).

Forrest
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Old March 07, 2020, 14:32   #2
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Any rifle that shoots under 2 MOA is plenty good, as that means that I cant out-hold it with irons using 61 year old eyes and nerve damaged fingers..

With good glass, under 3/4 MOA is my criteria, otherwise, why is there glass on it ?


Now I may have to assemble a flippin' lightweight, small-caliber bottom feeder.

dammit.


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Old March 07, 2020, 16:27   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdb59 View Post
With good glass, under 3/4 MOA is my criteria, otherwise, why is there glass on it ?
For the same reason people put scopes on FAL's, deer rifles, lever actions, M1A's and the ten's of millions of other perfectly good rifles out there....
Or is that some kind of trick question......
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Old March 07, 2020, 17:14   #4
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Accuracy for me is based on perceived need else I would likely not own an FAL/L1a1/L2 rifles. 2 to 2.5 MOA in an MBR designed for concripted troops is fine, especially in countries where majority of people can't even hold a rifle unless join the military or police. Most will just put rounds down range while specialty trained shooters do the precision shooting. In this case reliability is king and a well built FAL/L1/L2 in most cases never need more than gas adjustment to keep chugging along.

For AR 15s I pretty much have no use for any that won't hold 1.5 MOA with good irons. Have 12.5" barreled ARs which if pull the red dots and nail scopes on will hold 3/4 to 1 MOA easily, my 18" SPR/SDM fighting rifles all shoot 1/2 to 5/8 MOA with glass and my varmint builds if can't shoot five round single ragged hole groups at 100 yards will be useless on crows and iffy on ground hogs at typical varmint ranges. I work from the golf bag approach on rifles even in the AR genre.

Limiting factor on my ability to keep builds going as much as like is accuracy that comes from becoming a barrel snob. While occasionally find good shooting barrels at decent price point in the ARP and Ballistic Advantage BA Hansen line for years a Lothar-Walther was an entry level tube and pretty much stuck with White Oak Armament, Noveske/Pac-Nor, Douglas and lately Compass Lake Engineering/Bartlain barrels. I want the shooter (aka me) to be the weak link in the system. Why all builds are tested with a 6-20x or 8-24x test scope (keep two test scopes ready for builds as come off the bench) so can test inherent accuracy of the build as tune gas and buffer before they are swapped to red dots, lower power scopes, sometime higher power glass and even iron sites.

Built an AR 15 in 22 Nosler using their 24" varmint profile barrel that is mated to a 0.999" diameter extended gas block for more thread engagement and super tight fit compared to normal 0.998" diameter gas block in DPMS Lo Pro upper that landed a 12-36x BDC scope using 22-250 BDC as with my hand loads the long tube loading 69 grain SMKs and 70 grain Nosler RDF projectiles needs just a tad of dope to adjust from the 22-250 hard click 100 range incriminates from 100 to 1,000 yard hash marks top turret. It is built to kill crow to 400 yards and ground hog/coyote to 800 and make multiple shots if get into a pack. It pretty much has to run all rounds through one hole at 100 to be successful at the longer ranges.

Have a pair of ARs built exactly the same using White Oak Armament profiled 24" 1:12 twist varmint profiled tubes. Every detail on the pair are identical from Lo Pro uppers to 2.1 pound pull Hyperfire Eclipse triggers at present, 16.5" free float forearms with bipods, LMT bolts and Sightron 8-32x56mm scopes. Built them to shoot 36 to 52 grain varmint bullets at prairie dogs out west predominately with crows locally as secondary use. It's amazing how well above top of charts varmint weight bullets will range accurately and when shooting prairie dogs have always had issues with overheating barrels if take just one rifle. Thus another pair of Siamese twins.

Initially built a pair of White Oak 20" 1:12 5.56 rifles with Vortex 6-20x scopes for this purpose but when used for crow locally and got a feel for them and had an oportunity to pick up the 24" tunes built the second set of twins with an extra 12x magnification to pick up quick moving prairie dogs soon as pop their heads out of their holes to see if coast is clear to do their prairie dog thing. Set the pair side by side and after eight to twelve shots spaced closely shuffle to rifle/shooting mat almost overlapping each other to a cool rifle and continue till see mirage off rising from heat of barrel then back to the other rifle. Saves a lot of burned throats which was a real problem with my 22-250 Ackley Improved turn bolts and why ended up with a pair after smoking a new barrel that was just barely broken in in a matter of days one trip to edge of Colorados front range and was taken to prairie dog heaven for varmint hunters and he'll for the rancher who owned the property.

Asking me about accuracy is a loaded question as always looking for more to point of trying 1:7.5, 1:7.7 and 1:8-6.5 gain twist, button rifling, 5R rifling, 3R rifling, cut rifling, hammer forged, cryofreezing, melon it treating and every new idea in barrels looking for a little more accuracy and velocity. For what I have spent on AR barrels and parts to build them over past five to eight years could have bought a new top line new truck. Could have likely bought three trucks if count cost of optics on top of the builds. It has become a total obsessive compulsion probably need to seek psychological therapy for as its now bled over to AR 10'so and can't seem to buy parts fast enough as disposable income comes available on AR 10 barrels as always have most of the other parts sitting by the dozens waiting on barrels and glass.

Even my 1x red dot equipped rifles suffer from this obsession as tend to buy C More Railways as allow me to swap from 2, 4, 6 and 8 MOA dots (bigger cover too much target) or Eotechs so able to use a 3x magnifier with the 1 MOA dot and it not blow up too large. Understand Eotech just released a 5x magnifier so guess I am on the hook for one soon. Honestly if a 5.56, 22 Nosler or 6.8 spc II AR rifle build won't shoot 1 MOA it's because I used an OEM takeoff barrel got for a deal and goes in the locker of iron site rifles that are loaners and give aways. Same reason have so many M1a in Loaded, National and Super Match configuration. Always want to issue down range to be the operator and not the equipment. If a grout opens up or shot is dropped it's all on me, can't usually blame the boom stick in my hands, dangit...
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Old March 07, 2020, 18:04   #5
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I consider combat type accuracy/consistency suitably accurate for most anything a rifle could be called on to do. Anything more accurate is wasted money and stress from my point of view which is this, I only need a rifle accurate enough to showcase my own abilities under mental and physical stress and exertion.
I know the topic is AR's here which is a broad brush with which to paint because the array of types and uses is so broad. My go-to is a 2 moa gun, maybe better from a bench and better ammo. But it's perfect for my intended use. If I had a dedicated target gun, one that never sees grass or dirt but only bench tops on sunny days and only shoots paper or tiny furry critters where only optics can see then I'd like it to be 3/4 moa.
To me the only right answer to the question is dependent on the intended use. So one must ask a more precise question to get a more precise answer.

Something I've learned over the years, the tighter a semi auto firearm will shoot the more things that can go wrong and render it inoperative or problematic. I favor reliability over that last 1/8th moa.
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Old March 07, 2020, 18:08   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdb59 View Post
..... otherwise, why is there glass on it ?


Because my eyes simply can't see like they once did. Hard to hold MOA accuracy when I can't decide which of the three targets to aim at.
That reminds me, I'll have to discuss that Mauser sight with you when we get to that point.
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Old March 07, 2020, 18:59   #7
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Realistically, most decent AR uppers are capable of better accuracy than the person squeezing the trigger (assuming that the rifle is of decent quality to begin with).

I would argue that $$$ is initially best invested in a decent trigger and range ammo.

ENJOY YOURSELF AND PRACTICE!

After that, THEN start worrying about high end barrels, optics, custom loads ect..

Let the internet commandos yank each other’s cranks as they regurgitate useless BS that they read online.
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Old March 07, 2020, 19:29   #8
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My White Oak 5.56 service-rifle uppers, when new, shoot X's just about as easy as pressing the letter "X" on a keyboard.

My blaster-grade AR's usually shoot better than they should for the price I paid.

I did try to make a Palmetto PA-10 upper shoot to the accuracy-standard I expect from my match-grade service rifles. It would hold 10-ring windage, but would not hold elevation for some reason.
41.1 grains TAC with a 168 SMK and Leupold scope.
Same scope holds the 10-ring consistently on 5.56 guns.
On the 7.62 Palmetto gun, and using that same scope, it kicked shots high and low into the 8 ring on the 200-yard target reduced to simulate 600 yards.
And it chewed the living shit out of the bolt.
Running Geissele trigger, and firing prone at 200 yards.

I try my damn-dest to not shoot for real accuracy with iron sights anymore.
Reality good.
Delusion bad.
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Old March 07, 2020, 19:41   #9
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16” CL barrel, 4x Acog, and my 77grain load
can do just over 1” at 100. Front sandbag only.

Good enough for me.
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Old March 07, 2020, 20:00   #10
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With AR's its all about the components.
Ive got Varmint AR's that shoot sub moa all day with the right ammo. The guns are more accurate than the shooter. Ive found the 4 elements outside of the shooter.
Ammo
Glass
Barrel
Trigger

Yesterday I broke out this one. It shoots three round groups in one hole on a best day, clovers on a bad.

PRI Mk12 Mod 0/Nightforce 2.5-10x44 with Black Hills sierra match grade.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old March 07, 2020, 22:13   #11
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Most of what I think on this topic has been said above. The thing I started over in the Guy Epic Thread thread was about "ROI" related to "Accuracy vs. Cost". I'm not done yet, and I don't know how to get to the bottom of the Cost/ROI thing for "Total Value" without destroying components by shooting thousands of dollars of ammo per quarter through multiple guns for at least a year. Not gonna do it. So for me, the "ROI" question is strictly about "Tolerable Accuracy" vs. "Tolerable Expense". This ^ too, is different for each person.

In games, like Run 'n' Gun, Three Gun, High Power, etc., terminal performance doesn't matter, so getting hits at 800 is super cool. "Accuracy" matters for the job, more than for my "personal requirements" - except as they are related to the 'job'. For me, that 'job' is a Run 'n' Gun game where I carry rifle and gear 10K and shoot targets from 5 yards to 500 yards away.

IRL, which I have zero experience in, people use these things in four categories as far as I can tell:

1. PDW / Truck Gun: 7.5" to 11.5" barrel & collapsible/foldable stock or pistol w/ brace. 5.56mm / .223 or .300 B.O. Possibly supressed.

2. Carbine: 12" to 16" barrel & 6-position stock. 5.56mm / .223

3. SDM/DMR: 16" to 20" barrel. Showing up as part of a four-man stick. 5.56mm / .223

4. SPR: 16" to 20" barrel. Something bigger than 5.56mm / .223, but 75 gr. ammo in .223 could do in a pinch...


Truck Gun: I think 4MOA would be sufficient for a truck gun / PDW / First Response to Crazy Guy on the Freeway scenario. Because, literally, I can't think of how I would shoot a guy more than 50 yards away and say that there was an immediate threat to me or mine. And that 4MOA would be 2" at 50. If that Bad Guy is 100 yards away, I'm still gonna hit him with a 4MOA rifle - that's the Appleseed Standard: rack rifle + surplus ammo = 4MOA and get your hits on a 16" torso out to 400. Above all else, the gun has to run like a Scalded Dog.

Carbine: 4MOA would work here, too. Not ideal, but not terrible. If three of every four shots landed in a 16" circle at 400 yards, I'd be a giant pain in the ass to someone who meant me harm. We can test this theory lots of ways, but we can check "tolerable accuracy" by figuring if we'd be satisfied ringing a 4" steel round at 100 yards at the range, or a 12" steel round at 300 out in the desert (or wherever...). Right, we wouldn't be World Champions, but we'd be happy about it - especially in field conditions.

DMR: I think 2MOA is where I'd want to cut it off here. Not because 4MOA isn't good enough, but for confidence in the gear to make those longer shots. If the 4-man stick is getting stretched out, are we really going to be a quarter mile apart? 4MOA is easily good enough if we're inside 300 yards, but we may want to put something between two trees or through a window or whatever, and that might show up as a head only at 300 yards. Gonna need better than 4MOA to do that.

SPR: This should be 1.5MOA or better just because of the potential tasks we're asking of it.


All of this ^ is my version of "Tolerable Accuracy" per job I think these rifles are asked to do. It's based on classes, competitions, and conversations only - not on actual job performance.
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Old March 07, 2020, 22:38   #12
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So that ^ is the "Tolerable Accuracy" thing from my perspective.

This is the "Tolerable Expense" thing from my perspective: light weight components are either expensive, or they're crap. I'm old compared to the twenty-something guys that show up to the Run 'n' Guns. I'm also less fit by a wide margin. So I'm willing to pay for lighter gear that is quality and lends itself to accuracy and durability.

I'll pay for the $275 Daniel Defense pencil barrel. It's CHF and chrome lined. And it weighs less than 2 lbs. And every one I've got shoots just over 1 MOA. Then I want light things and reliable things: sometimes I can afford light *and* strong/reliable things when they're on sale.


I think with iron sights these guns are about 1500. It seems expensive. But they are 6 3/4 pounds and they shoot ~1MOA. And since I don't know what my ARs are going to do besides go to Run 'n' Guns, those guns have to do all four jobs listed above. Don't "need" 1MOA truck gun. Don't "need" 6 3/4 lb. DMR. Don't need expensive carbine to do normal 'carbine' stuff. That is my "Tolerable Expense" to match "Tolerable Accuracy" and "Job Description" for my particular use.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

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Old March 08, 2020, 10:53   #13
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Standard accuracy for a military issue M4 or M16 is 4 MOA..

My home built AR with a BCM upper and BCM pencil profile barrel gets about 4 MOA.

A friend of mine has a Colt, his shoots about 4 MOA as well, another friend with a Bushmaster gets between 3-4 MOA.

I read all the time about people that supposedly have 1 or even .5 MOA ARs, I don't know what parts they are using to get that kind of accuracy but from what I've seen at the range with people shooting ARs I'm skeptical of those claims.
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Old March 08, 2020, 11:18   #14
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Standard accuracy for a military issue M4 or M16 is 4 MOA..

My home built AR with a BCM upper and BCM pencil profile barrel gets about 4 MOA.

A friend of mine has a Colt, his shoots about 4 MOA as well, another friend with a Bushmaster gets between 3-4 MOA.

I read all the time about people that supposedly have 1 or even .5 MOA ARs, I don't know what parts they are using to get that kind of accuracy but from what I've seen at the range with people shooting ARs I'm skeptical of those claims.
I'm not at all and in fact no AR I've ever owned has shot over 2 moa, even the Model 1 Sales junk. I had what I considered an odd duck Bushmaster CAR, the one with the 11" barrel and 5.5" "Flash Hider"? With a carry handle mount and a Simmons shot gun scope that gun shot easily into 1.5 inches at 100 with AA 55 gr. and I have witnesses who also did the same with it. I could go on forever. Best friend has an old Knight M4 that shoots 1/2 with his reloads. His son has a very custom JP Ent. that shoots little clover leafs with hand loads.
I'm sure your experiences and observations at the local range are just what they say they are but maybe that says more about the clientele than the guns.
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Old March 08, 2020, 11:23   #15
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ARs are generally pretty accurate rifles.

Ammo seems to be the limiting factor - most factory ball ammo is 2moa at best.

Federal American eagle 50gr HP & BT is my go to load for testing stuff as it shoots well.
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Old March 08, 2020, 14:45   #16
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I read all the time about people that supposedly have 1 or even .5 MOA ARs, I don't know what parts they are using to get that kind of accuracy but from what I've seen at the range with people shooting ARs I'm skeptical of those claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkshooter
I'm not at all and in fact no AR I've ever owned has shot over 2 moa, even the Model 1 Sales junk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvcdl
Ammo seems to be the limiting factor - most factory ball ammo is 2moa at best.
I'm not skeptical of 1MOA AR claims - at all. I've got more than one. I am VERY skeptical of 0.5MOA AR claims, though I know there are a few out there. They usually look like the (very nice) 12lb. monstrosity / varmint gun pictured above, or the KAC gun referenced by hkshooter. And there are very few ammo-shooter combos that can shoot 0.5MOA, and fewer yet that can do it without a sled or at least both front and rear support.

Ammo is the first limiting factor. Most factory match isn't 0.5MOA ammo. Secondly, most shooters aren't 0.5MOA shooters. I'm aware that they are out there, but there are far fewer out there than the number of people who claim they're in the group. Having that one great day when the stars aligned and the Gods of Shooting let your three rounds touch each other in a perfect clover leaf does NOT mean that you (or the gun) are a 0.5MOA shooter.
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Old March 08, 2020, 14:53   #17
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........ Secondly, most shooters aren't 0.5MOA shooters. I'm aware that they are out there, but there are far fewer out there than the number of people who claim they're in the group.
Preach it Brother !








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Old March 08, 2020, 15:05   #18
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Standard accuracy for a military issue M4 or M16 is 4 MOA..
I think, but I'm not positive, that this is the 2MOA rifle + 2MOA ammo combo. Rack-grade rifle is hardly a tack-driver, and neither is the M855 I've shot.

I think some people overcome the 2MOA ammo problem by hand loading, and this is where a LOT of 1MOA rifle claims come from: 1.5MOA rifle + 0.5MOA ammo delivers a bunch of 2MOA groups, and (periodically) quite a few three shot groups right at 1" @ 100.

People (all of us) tend to select and over-emphasize data that matches our biases or our pre-determined outcomes ("I have a 1MOA rifle"), and ignore or not include the data that contradicts these needs/outcomes. So then lots of people go on the internet and talk about this rifle they've got...
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:07   #19
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Secondly, most shooters aren't 0.5MOA shooters. I'm aware that they are out there, but there are far fewer out there than the number of people who claim they're in the group.
Agreed. Back in the day when my eyes were better, I was twenty years younger and twenty pounds lighter, and I shot every weekend, I could shoot .5 MOA if the equipment was capable. Bipod and rear bag. Today? I haven't fired a rifle capable of MOA accuracy in years and I highly doubt I could do it even if I had the gear. My most recent acquisition obtained with sub MOA in mind will tell the tale. A Ruger RPR in 6mmCR. I've been missing a minute of groundhog accurate rifle for years and some gentle poking from my best friend led me down this path. The rig should do it but it remains to be seen if the loose nut behind the trigger can. Will find out as the weather improves.

But it's no AR.

That same best friend has been doing uber accurate custom rifles for years, long before and ever since I went the milsurp path. He's perfectly capable of squeaking out every last bit of accuracy from whatever he shoots and spends tons on AR stuff. You name it, he's had it. Some really high dollar gear that wouldn't perform up to his standards has found it's way to GB. Keep in mind his standards are pretty tight, if it won't shoot 3/4 he has no use for it. His most recent is a 6.5G that wouldn't "shoot for shit" and needed a new barrel. He's big on barrels and says the only way to get an AR to shoot is to start with the best barrel possible. He replaced it and sent me pics of the targets with tiny little clover leafs.
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:13   #20
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Preach it Brother !








...............................
Amirite?!?!

Back in the old days of the Files, I made more than one public offer of buying a plane ticket AND giving $1,000 cash to members here who said that they could shoot such-and-such ridiculous claim. I don't see those guys post anymore.

One guy told me he once shot a "lit cigarette in half" at 1000 yards with iron sights and a surplus Mauser. My response to that was

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:14   #21
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People (all of us) tend to select and over-emphasize data that matches our biases or our pre-determined outcomes ("I have a 1MOA rifle"), and ignore or not include the data that contradicts these needs/outcomes. So then lots of people go on the internet and talk about this rifle they've got...
Yeah, like the infamous "flyer", that internet catch-all blamed for everything that didn't go their way.
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:18   #22
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most shooters aren't 0.5MOA shooters.
Amen

I'm a 2 MOA at best with optics. 5+ MOA with irons and 55 y/o eyes. I can however hit a 10" paper plate (or steel plate) out to 250 yards with confidence and reliability.

If you want to challenge me on shooting cloverleafs, I'm out of the game before we start. If you want me to drop big game animals, steel plates in an action match, or zombies coming down the driveway, then you do want me on your team.

Truly, I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the ones who can shoot cloverleafs. It is no small task for man or equipment. That is however outside of my own skill-set and not my interest in trying to chase it down.
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:20   #23
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Agreed...

That same best friend has been doing uber accurate custom rifles for years, long before and ever since I went the milsurp path. He's perfectly capable of squeaking out ever last bit of accuracy from whatever he shoots and spends tons on AR stuff. You name it, he's had it. Some really high dollar gear that wouldn't perform up to his standards has found it's way to GB. Keep in mind his standards are pretty tight, if it won't shoot 3/4 he has no use for it. His most recent is a 6.5G that wouldn't "shoot for shit" and needed a new barrel. He's big on barrels and says the only way to get an AR to shoot is to start with the best barrel possible. He replaced it and sent me pics of the targets with tiny little clover leafs.
Yeah - those shooters are out there. But you just pointed out that this guy is someone who has basically dedicated his life (avocation / hobby / whatever) to the pursuit.

The rest of them? They're liars.
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:21   #24
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Amen

I'm a 2 MOA at best with optics. 5+ MOA with irons and 55 y/o eyes. I can however hit a 10" paper plate (or steel plate) out to 250 yards with confidence and reliability.

If you want to challenge me on shooting cloverleafs, I'm out of the game before we start. If you want me to drop big game animals, steel plates in an action match, or zombies coming down the driveway, then you do want me on your team.

Truly, I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the ones who can shoot cloverleafs. It is no small task for man or equipment. That is however outside of my own skill-set and not my interest in trying to chase it down.
Brothers in shooting.
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:23   #25
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Amen

I'm a 2 MOA at best with optics. 5+ MOA with irons and 55 y/o eyes. I can however hit a 10" paper plate (or steel plate) out to 250 yards with confidence and reliability.

If you want to challenge me on shooting cloverleafs, I'm out of the game before we start. If you want me to drop big game animals, steel plates in an action match, or zombies coming down the driveway, then you do want me on your team.

Truly, I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the ones who can shoot cloverleafs. It is no small task for man or equipment. That is however outside of my own skill-set and not my interest in trying to chase it down.
I'll be on your team - I'm not looking to ask the zombie if that head-shot at 75 was "inside" or "outside" the ocular cavity.
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:26   #26
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Shooting at anything, that shoots back at you,,,use that 30 round magazine until it(whatever you're shooting at) can't shoot back at you.

2 to 5 inch 100 yard AR's will keep "most" rounds on target out to 500 yds,,target being,,18 inches by say 20 rectangle.
Or,,minute of man.

Reliability,,,in harsh conditions,,without a lot of cleaning,,going bang every time the trigger is pulled,,far more important than how tight a bench group can be shot.

Can any AR,,,regardless of price,,hold 2moa or less,, while being fired over your head,, from behind a truck,tree,or out of a hole in the ground,,,,or while running for your life?????

They make,,,SSG's and Rem 700's for that one shot one kill stuff.

AR's are for carrying/humping,,with a ton of ammo,,,and designed to hit a fellow out to 500 yards or so,,,most of the time,, with a trained rifleman.
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:26   #27
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Yeah, like the infamous "flyer", that internet catch-all blamed for everything that didn't go their way.
"Flyers" are 'real', but most of them are shooter-induced rather than some awful miracle of the Gods of Shooting that kept that group from being 0.49".

As usual, different people use the same word to mean different things. Some people do it on purpose to slide around what actually happened. Those are people to avoid in business, friendship, and elsewhere - like the rifle range.
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"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:28   #28
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Shooting at anything, that shoots back at you,,,use that 30 round magazine until it(whatever you're shooting at) can't shoot back at you.



Reliability,,,in harsh conditions,,without a lot of cleaning,,going bang every time the trigger is pulled,,far more important than how tight a bench group can be shot.
Word.

Wisdom offered duly noted.
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:36   #29
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Paul, Troy, Terry, and Jeff, put this in the back of your minds.

The second annual western KY FAL shoot will be July 11

I'll post up a real thread on it when it gets a bit closer, but......
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Old March 08, 2020, 15:41   #30
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This guy did some outstanding work with the pictured rifle.

Only ~2 MOA, but no change in zero in changing weather conditions.

His fieldcraft was probably in the top percentile of American males at that time, though.





“Snipers today talk about half-minute of angle. Carlos Hathcock’s rifle barrel looked like it had been sandblasted. On the inspection sheet, you’d say, ‘Slight pits throughout.’ His rifle would hold about two minutes of angle. That’s 20 inches at 1,000 yards and that’s what he had to work with." - E.J. Land


https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...ds-on-history/







...............................
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Old March 08, 2020, 16:00   #31
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Paul, Troy, Terry, and Jeff, put this in the back of your minds.

The second annual western KY FAL shoot will be July 11

I'll post up a real thread on it when it gets a bit closer, but......

Mike -

I'm super keen to do this. We think Jonathan is leaving on his mission that week. If he's already gone, I'm headed in your direction. If he's here on his last weekend before leaving for two years, I'm staying home.
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Old March 08, 2020, 16:04   #32
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My only concern is minute of man accuracy...
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Old March 08, 2020, 16:35   #33
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"Flyers" are 'real', but most of them are shooter-induced rather than some awful miracle of the Gods of Shooting that kept that group from being 0.49".

As usual, different people use the same word to mean different things. Some people do it on purpose to slide around what actually happened. Those are people to avoid in business, friendship, and elsewhere - like the rifle range.


Forrest
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:21   #34
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Granted most ARs are combat style weaponry but I really think some of you are overlooking how accurate these guns are.
Ive seen guys smoke a entire prairie dog population at 300 yards.
Many high end precision guns are guaranteed sub moa out of the box.
.5 groups are really not that hard to achieve if you practice and all the odds are in your favor.

I like to blast as much as the next guy, but there are days I prefer to take out the AR's and shoot teeny groups for no other reason than the practice.

I think thats the great thing about the AR, it is so adaptable for any role but lets not forget accuracy is definitely a role it has cornered in the semi auto market.
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:29   #35
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I think thats the great thing about the AR, it is so adaptable for any role but lets not forget accuracy is definitely a role it has cornered in the semi auto market.
Yep - it's a good platform.

I've got a 5 lb. race gun, and you've got a Prairie Dog Terminator (among other things), but they're both ARs built for their particular job.

I don't want to haul your PDT around a 10K race course, and you don't want to shoot prairie dogs at 300 with my race gun.

All the rest of my ARs are trying to be a compromise between all those different jobs.
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:30   #36
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I have a Colt 6920 upper that came with a 16” government profile chrome lined barrel... 3-4 Moa @ 100 meters is all it could manage with decent ammo and that was disappointing ... I replaced it with a 14.5” Remington SOCOM medium weight profile barrel in addition to a DD RIS ii FSB rail. it significantly improved my carbines accuracy... 2 moa or better is what I got last time I fired it.

I’m thinking the improvement has more to do with the heavier profile of the barrel and the firing vibration harmonics than the quality of the Colt vs Remington barrels.
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:36   #37
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Yep - it's a good platform.

I've got a 5 lb. race gun, and you've got a Prairie Dog Terminator (among other things), but they're both ARs built for their particular job.

I don't want to haul your PDT around a 10K race course, and you don't want to shoot prairie dogs at 300 with my race gun.

All the rest of my ARs are trying to be a compromise between all those different jobs.
Preach it!

I have a hard time with firearms in general. I start down a tangent and wake up and notice I have ten of this, or twenty of that. It happens to us all at some point I guess.
But the AR platform is my main go to due the ability to build them to do almost anything. Nowdays even with calibers..


And I completely agree there is no such thing as a "flyer" We call that a miss!
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:41   #38
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@Tip_drill -

Quality barrel is the most important part of AR accuracy IMO.
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:45   #39
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I do love my lil sbr gun though....Sighted in for 50, and just ringing steel, spraying and praying. Good times...
[IMG][/IMG]

And sometimes you want to be reminded of the suck.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old March 08, 2020, 17:49   #40
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wake up and notice I have ten of this, or twenty of that. It happens to us all at some point I guess.
NOT ME !!!

Five or ten of anything is plenty enough! Well, of course if you are not talking about FALs or 1911s
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Old March 08, 2020, 18:28   #41
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G-D made five pound AR's!

He felt sorry for GI's having to hump the damn things day in and day out.

10.5 barrel AR "pistol" is not a CAR,,,but its close enough without a transfer fee and a lot of paperwork.
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Old March 08, 2020, 20:26   #42
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I have a Colt 6920 upper that came with a 16” government profile chrome lined barrel... 3-4 Moa @ 100 meters is all it could manage with decent ammo and that was disappointing ... I replaced it with a 14.5” Remington SOCOM medium weight profile barrel in addition to a DD RIS ii FSB rail. it significantly improved my carbines accuracy... 2 moa or better is what I got last time I fired it.

I’m thinking the improvement has more to do with the heavier profile of the barrel and the firing vibration harmonics than the quality of the Colt vs Remington barrels.
Possibly had something to do with the fact the 6920 wasn’t floated, and your SOCOM barrel was.

That said, a 6920 barrel IS a quality barrel, and surely capable of better than 3 MOA. I’d trust it over a Remington barrel.
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Old March 08, 2020, 20:28   #43
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I do love my lil sbr gun though....Sighted in for 50, and just ringing steel, spraying and praying. Good times...
[IMG][/IMG]

And sometimes you want to be reminded of the suck.

[IMG][/IMG]
Nice A4 clone. You need a Matech or KAC USMC BUIS, and stock mounted mag pouch!
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Old March 08, 2020, 20:33   #44
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Mike -

I'm super keen to do this. We think Jonathan is leaving on his mission that week. If he's already gone, I'm headed in your direction. If he's here on his last weekend before leaving for two years, I'm staying home.
I understand that completely and don't want to rush him off. A fine young man you have raised there. Please tell him I said so and hug him for me when he starts on that journey. Get here if you can.
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Old March 08, 2020, 21:50   #45
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brunop-- your inbox is full. How does that even happen at silver level?
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Old March 08, 2020, 22:28   #46
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Having spent some time as a range officer for the Department of Defense, I’ve seen plenty of M16 and M4 shoot in qualifications. I’ve had lots of trainees say this gun can’t hit the target. I’ve gotten behind the same gun and within 2 or 3 groups have the gun zeros and in a nice grouping.

I was at a training class where we were shooting at a steel target at 300 yards. I knew I was in trouble as my light weight Colt AR 15 holds good groups at 100 yards but by 300 yards it’s all over the place. The guy that “won” it, was using an SBR with an 11 inch barrel. He was able to keep 9 of 10 rounds on target. I believe most of us were able to keep fewer than 5 rounds on target. We were all shooting prone from a sandbag support and we’re all firearms instructors who were supposed to be some of our department’s top shooters.

As for what I want from my AR15s is a minimum of 2 MOA. But I was issued a M24 SWS and I expect myself to shoot small groups. Anything less than 2MOA to me is useless in my opinion, regardless of what role it is to be used in. There are plenty of ways to make an AR15 more accurate and for relatively inexpensive. I do like what LaRue says, we don’t promise that our guns shoot under 1 MOA because of variables like ammo, optics, and shooters ability.

Now, if I was a fraction of what Carlos Hathcock I would be very happy. I just wonder what he could have done with a M24SWS or even some of the newer weapons out there rather than the off the shelf Model 70 that Carlos had.
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Old March 08, 2020, 22:36   #47
hkshooter
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Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
Paul, Troy, Terry, and Jeff, put this in the back of your minds.

The second annual western KY FAL shoot will be July 11

I'll post up a real thread on it when it gets a bit closer, but......
Already have it planned.
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Old March 08, 2020, 23:05   #48
brunop
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brunop-- your inbox is full. How does that even happen at silver level?
Cuz I'm still waiting for my Platinum thing to get updated.
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Old March 09, 2020, 00:09   #49
yellowhand
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Already have it planned.
Yep,,date marked on calendar.
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Old March 09, 2020, 11:21   #50
jhend170
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I have to admit I have mixed feelings about what an AR should be able to do, but ultimately it's yet another tool and I simply need it to do the job it was designed for. I have 3, all very different and built with different purposes in mind. Here's the rundown and what they are capable of...

1. First build, SPR in its soul, but not a strict copy. Tactical Innovations STBA matched receiver set (lapped upper), Black Hole 1:8 18" polygonal barrel, Diamondhead VRS-T FFHg, Adams Arms piston, Magpul UBR, JMT Sabre trigger, Leupold 3-9 x 40 Firedot. Yes, as designed, this will shoot better than MOA. When I was shooting far more and well practiced I managed .75ish MOA with my handloads (Varget and 69gr SMKs). It's a pig, comes in at about 10lbs loaded with a full magazine, but will do what I need it to better than I can out to 600 yds.

2. The "truck gun." OAL of about 25". This was built with very nice parts as well. SanTan Tactical receiver (I'm a lefty, it's an ambi receiver), lapped DD upper, Bergara 10.5" 300BO barrel, MI FFHg, Spikes Battle Trigger with Joe Bob's takeup grip screw (if you aren't familiar with these this combination makes for a REALLY nice trigger for about $70 total), Tailhook, AA lightened carrier and piston system, Redfield Counterstrike and PA 6x magnifier. Can't say I've done a lot to test accuracy here, and it's done what it was built to do... kill things to 200ish yds. I've taken pigs with authority to that distance without issue using 125 gr Hog Ham'rs. It was sighted in at 50 yds and put everything into about an inch or so at that distance, so 2-3moa.

3. The "cheapie." Got a free 16" M4 style barrel from Bear Creek for Vet's day, bought a set of flip-up sights from them to throw them "thank-you" business. Had an Anderson lower laying around, bought cheap upper, DI BCG, 6 pos stock, FFHg from Gorilla Machining. Had a Spikes Battle Trigger in #1, put that in here when I got the JMT for it. Just a few weeks ago I was missing targets (Mexican "eagles" in south TX that are a scourge to farmers raising animals) and was all "WTF?" Went to check zero and was 6" high, 3" right. Rezeroed, and was putting 5.56 ball into about 1.5" at 75 yds (2-3 moa). This honestly shocked me, and was likely a fluke. I did, however, kill the next 2 birds I got in my sights at 100-125 yds, so it was at least that good, and that's good enough.

So only 1 of the 3 is at or better than MOA, but my standard is more about "doing the job." The first is built to be as accurate as possible without spending crazy money; it is. The second is to kill mid-sized things (deer, 2&4 legged vermin) to 200 yds, and it does. The last was built to be a plinker with the occasional smallish-midsize vermin of opportunity with no care for keeping it pretty, and it does that. So all return expected and acceptable accuracy to the points they were built to, and maybe slightly better.

In the end "good enough" is, well, good enough.
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