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Old April 04, 2020, 10:23   #1
raubvogel
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Marines complaints about the m16a4

So, when did they go to the M4?

https://www.wearethemighty.com/milit...mplaints-m16a4
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Old April 04, 2020, 10:37   #2
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Still in a transitioning phase. Nearly every 03 will have an M4 now, almost everybody else still has the crusty old A4s. Of course it's the USMC, so it's kinda whatever you're given.
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Old April 04, 2020, 10:42   #3
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October 2015 is the date cited in the article for infantry standardization of the carbine. There are plenty of “muskets” still being issued outside the infantry, however.

4 out of 5 of the article’s complaints about the M16A4 also apply to the M4. I personally never heard anyone complain about the “musket”, though the M4 always won on cool guy points. On that scale it seems to go: M27 > M4 > M16A4.

I also never personally experienced a malfunction of any kind with the “musket” but did have one double feed with the M4.
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Old April 04, 2020, 12:34   #4
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Originally Posted by Artigas View Post
October 2015 is the date cited in the article for infantry standardization of the carbine. There are plenty of “muskets” still being issued outside the infantry, however.

4 out of 5 of the article’s complaints about the M16A4 also apply to the M4. I personally never heard anyone complain about the “musket”, though the M4 always won on cool guy points. On that scale it seems to go: M27 > M4 > M16A4.

I also never personally experienced a malfunction of any kind with the “musket” but did have one double feed with the M4.
These poofs we call soldiers today would shit a brick if they had to carry the likes of an FAL or M1.
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Old April 04, 2020, 12:55   #5
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These poofs we call soldiers today would shit a brick if they had to carry the likes of an FAL or M1.
Would they really though? The average infantryman carries more weight than ever before. I don't think it's too much to ask, to give soldiers better handling rifles.

Not to mention, the M16A4 is already practically the length of a FAL. If the slight weight savings of an M4 means more ammo or more maneuverability, why not?

It's not an issue of soldiers being weaker, but weapons change/evolve. Heavier doesn't mean better nowadays.
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Old April 04, 2020, 13:16   #6
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IMO, we should've moved away from the M16/M4 as it is a long time ago. Namely to an AR-18 or AK-based weapon that allows for a folding stock. Probably why if the German Army decided soon to replace the G36 why the HK433 will win. One, it seems that the German Army wants to one stop shop everything (HK for infantry weapons, Rheinmetall for vehicles/artillery/heavy weapons, Haenel for long range sniper rifles, etc), and two, the 433 seems to be multi-caliber, much more adaptable than the G36, while retaining the better features of the G36, namely the folding stock.

Compactness counts when you're talking mechanized infantry, not to mention that with a folding stock you have more compact storage dimensions even with a longer barrel.

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Old April 04, 2020, 13:26   #7
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Would they really though? The average infantryman carries more weight than ever before. I don't think it's too much to ask, to give soldiers better handling rifles.

Not to mention, the M16A4 is already practically the length of a FAL. If the slight weight savings of an M4 means more ammo or more maneuverability, why not?

It's not an issue of soldiers being weaker, but weapons change/evolve. Heavier doesn't mean better nowadays.


No kidding. Former reserve 0331 and later NG mortarman and my knees are tired.

In my civilian career I spent a lot of time in the training area of fort drum. Those poor light infantry guys are going to need new knees. The protective armor load out has to be as much as all the gear I carried in the flak jacket and Kevlar days. Then you throw on the packs.

Our Ww2 guys carried pillows compared to the current loadout. Well until you you carried MG ammo and mortar rounds.
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Old April 04, 2020, 13:36   #8
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But, but, but... It's all mechanized...

OK, just a joke...

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Old April 04, 2020, 13:42   #9
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Our Ww2 guys carried pillows compared to the current loadout. Well until you you carried MG ammo and mortar rounds.
I have often felt a pang of jealousy when watching WW2 movies and seeing how light they traveled.

Watch a modern soldier and fireman compete with a fully plate-armored knight in an obstacle course.

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Old April 05, 2020, 05:22   #10
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A fully equipped USGI IOTV vest with soft armor panels, ESAPI front, rear and side rifle plates, groin protector, neck yoke, seven loaded magazines, IFAK, handheld radio, two grenades and standard military water bladder filled weighs right at 42 to 45 pounds based on size. Add helmet, day and half pack or three day assault pack and a man I'd carrying a mule. This is for single hit rated NIJ 3 protection, maybe two rounds as the ceramic plates turn to dust at full threat level

My two primary IOTV vests AR NIJ 4 rated and with my choice of plates and same load out except for dual radios and pistol each kit is 30 to 32 pounds and a full level higher protection. And that includes 11"×14" plates in front rather than military standard 10"×12" plates. My two Tactical Tailor kits with NIJ 3a soft armor verses NIJ 2 soft armor in IOTV and newest military vests, NIJ 4 plates still using 11"×14" which is much more frontal rifle protection plus a sacrum protector and throat protector added with all the latest bells and whistles to have maximum protection with least weight carrying nine loaded mags, pistol with spare mags added plus dual radios, better IFAK and same size water bladder plus knife, multitool and other needs both weigh in at 26 to 28 pounds with much greater load out than a standard setup IOTV.

By using better boots that weigh less, also a newer and better MICH NIJ 3 rifle rated versus standard military MICH Level 3a helmet I can carry virtually same load out made to same blast resistant, flame proof, bug repellant cloth and drop a full twenty pounds off a full higher lever rated kit. Can stop 300 Win Mag rather than 308 with more square inches of protection. Soft armor is full threat level higher and helmet will stop 308 rather than 9mm pistol. If I can afford to buy two kits out of a civilians pocket Uncle Sugar could do it for our combat troops. We could up the power on their rifles and cut weight switching the M4 to 6.8 and furniture to carbon fiber. I can see easily dropping thirty total pounds off a troop with day pack plus give them higher protection level and more ammo. Have done the math and bottom line Congress would rather spend useless money on pork than best equipment for our troops in the field.
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Old April 05, 2020, 07:37   #11
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I have often felt a pang of jealousy when watching WW2 movies and seeing how light they traveled.

Watch a modern soldier and fireman compete with a fully plate-armored knight in an obstacle course.

Man, I wish! A lot has changed since 1990.

There have been strides to lighten our loads, and body armor requirements (plate carriers vs. full IOTV kit).

Rubbed shoulder with many Marines (still do), and according to most Marines stubbornly held on to the A4 because of tradition and views of their “superior” marksmanship. Especially after all the door kicking and CQB fighting in Fallujah, the Marines leadership really started to pull their heads out of the sand. They tried hard to hold on to the A4, even did things like working to develop different buffer systems in order to reliably use a collapsible stock with the rifle length upper (which has its merits I guess).

Then again, a few year back, while training up at Camp Grayling, there was a company sized element of Marines Reserves carrying nothing but HKs (M27 rifles) outfitted with optics. We (Army guys) found it “cute” after learning that the unit was comprised of HQ types. Meanwhile, our grunts just started carrying M4A1 rifles upgraded from well worn M4s. “Look at you, aren’t you special!” Reminded me of during my first deployment to Iraq when all the officers and HHC fobbits were running around with M4s outfitted with ACOGs and we had A4s and fighting for M68s. Shit never changes, regardless of branch.
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Old April 05, 2020, 08:45   #12
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Then again, a few year back, while training up at Camp Grayling, there was a company sized element of Marines Reserves carrying nothing but HKs (M27 rifles) outfitted with optics. We (Army guys) found it “cute” after learning that the unit was comprised of HQ types. Meanwhile, our grunts just started carrying M4A1 rifles upgraded from well worn M4s. “Look at you, aren’t you special!” Reminded me of during my first deployment to Iraq when all the officers and HHC fobbits were running around with M4s outfitted with ACOGs and we had A4s and fighting for M68s. Shit never changes, regardless of branch.
Sounds about right!
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Old April 05, 2020, 10:03   #13
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Marines complain 24/7.
I carried the M16a2, it was not a big deal. Trained in mountain warfare, okinawa jungles, deserts (29 palms), mout, forests of quantico, mountains of korea, never even saw an m4. There is a lot of chatter about urban combat now but mout is only part of the picture. Only body armor i used was the kevlar helmet and old flak jacket, and hated that flak jacket, it was only designed for shell frags and would not stop a rifle round and really sucked in hot weather. The Marine grunts are going to the HK design M27 which is great change. The stoner direct shit design has always sucked. If i was in charge i would adopt the tavor or galil.

“The Marine Corps is fielding thousands of its new M27 Infantry Automatic Rifles to grunts across the service and, for now, it’s not buying any more.”
Remfs need not apply.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...t-getting-one/
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Old April 05, 2020, 10:04   #14
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Give all relatives and close friends kids a Randall Model 15 Airman knife when get deployment papers for the War on Terror. Have nephew (actually first cousins kid but we are closer than I an to biological brother) who is a Blackhawk pilot and gave him my personal Randall Airman at his family send off party and suggested how he wear it and it was designed during Vietnam for helicopter crews to chop their way out of downed helicopters and still have a good survival knife to help get them to safety.

His mother busted out in tears and before end of party told me she was going to have presented to 1st Lieutenant John Smith buy Uncle Huey on knife or embossed on sheath. Told her absolutely not till he mustered out. She asked why and said he may have to fly mission(s) at some point in helicopter with no U.S. markings, no insignia on uniform, no name or dog tags in event was lost the U.S. could deny any involvement in operation. Thought she was going to stroke out and die right there. Was actually kind of funny as she had no idea how the real world operates.

When they muster out all get an AR 15 cloned as closely to rifle they used in theater. Figure it's least I can do for family that puts lives on the line for our freedom. All are proud of their Randall knife knowing their kids and grand kids will pass it down as knife dad/grand dad carried to war. Funny thing "nephew" was in-country about two months when a General walked by and said soon as he snapped to attention and saluted the General said "at ease, where did you get your Randall" ( had a two year wait list on knives at time). Told the General his "uncle" gives all family one when deploy and was invited to eat dinner with him. He became the Generals protégé and made captain then wing commander in record time because of that knife. Had planned to do his contracted time but is now a career man because of the fast promotions because he was properly wearing a Randall 15 on his flight gear.
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Old April 05, 2020, 10:20   #15
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“The Marine Corps is fielding thousands of its new M27 Infantry Automatic Rifles to grunts across the service and, for now, it’s not buying any more.”
Remfs need not apply.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...t-getting-one/
M27 rifles have been around for roughly three years, at least that is when I encountered Marines training with them at Camp Grayling during a joint training exercise. We interacted with these Marines numerous times every day for nearly three weeks and their new M27s were a popular topic of discussion, as they manned one of the primary gates to the training area (poor bastards, what a shitty detail!). They were Reservist HQ Remfs... go figure?
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Old April 05, 2020, 10:29   #16
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Marines complain 24/7.
In my experience, the Marine trigger pullers are resilient and put up with a lot of shit. True definition of "Grunts," much respect given. Wen shit needs to get done and people/things need to be broke, they make it happen!

Now, many of the Marine POGs were/are loud mouth primadonnas who don't walk the talk (not all, but the ones that are DEMAND to be heard... yawn). The Marine Grunts will tell you the same.
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Old April 05, 2020, 10:41   #17
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In my experience, the Marine trigger pullers are resilient and put up with a lot of shit. True definition of "Grunts," much respect given. Wen shit needs to get done and people/things need to be broke, they make it happen!

Now, many of the Marine POGs were/are loud mouth primadonnas who don't walk the talk (not all, but the ones that are DEMAND to be heard... yawn). The Marine Grunts will tell you the same.
POG = Pogue?
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Old April 05, 2020, 10:53   #18
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POG = Pogue?
Yes. Army (and Navy) tends to use the term Pogue based upon the history dating back to WWII.

Marines tend to lean towards POG "Persons Other than Grunt."

In the context of the discussion, I used "POG" to curb a Marine argueing whether the term was "Pogue" or "POG" ... it was more applicable to the discusison.

The flip occurred. Go figure, someone looking for an argument.
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Old April 05, 2020, 10:54   #19
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Is there any thought to lightening up all the other crap they carry? That would be my focus,rather than on-loading more crap to carry,and lightening the rifle.
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Old April 05, 2020, 11:19   #20
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Is there any thought to lightening up all the other crap they carry? That would be my focus,rather than on-loading more crap to carry,and lightening the rifle.
Powered exoskeletons would help with weight (carrying it (the weight) and just weight, if you catch my drift... )

Of course, while wearing it, don't fall out of the boat...

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Old April 05, 2020, 11:41   #21
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Is there any thought to lightening up all the other crap they carry? That would be my focus,rather than on-loading more crap to carry,and lightening the rifle.
There is.

We are still reeling back from the mid to late 2000s military mindset of strapping a shitload of body armor to soldiers to help them survive IEDs. Instead, it compromised the soldiers' mobility, beat up their bodies... and when/if they survived an IED hit, they were left severely mangled and wishing they were dead anyway. It was f'ing retarded. Of course, this is the same leadership that required us to were reflective PT belts inside the FOB, in the middle of the daytime.

By the end of my last deployment, we were basically wearing simple plate carriers and IOTV vests w/o all the extra attachments.

Every generation of IOTV is getting more comfortable and lighter, as opposed to heavier and more cumbersome during the first couple iterations in the 2000s.

K-pots (helmets) have come a long way to becoming lighter and more comfortable.
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Old April 05, 2020, 12:00   #22
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National Geographic (BBC owned communists like half the channels now) had a two hour special on U.S. Marine Corp and about 1/2 hour was dedicated to the gang problem in The Corps these days. Shoes video from bases in Iraq from Gulf 2 and current bases and FOBs in Afghanistan where there were a mix of Gang tags mostly from west coast Hispanics and white Skin Head (neonazi) groups. Appears in the field they are all Marines, fight and die for each other but once get back inside the wire if not under fire are having a lot of issues involving violence between the groups, even Hispanic gangs against other Hispanics.

Have seen and read articles about current U.S. gang violence and say it has become much more vicious and professional due to numbe of gang members with military training and combat tours. One article read was Cali cops responding to a robbery which turned out per was a Hispanic hang member with two tours in Marine Corp. Had taken out three cops in the gunfight as he was trying to escape from their fast respone when two more cops arrived, one a Marine Corp combat veteran who recognized the gang bangers tactics as pure Marine Corp combat tactics so as other cop engaged he was able to anticancer exactly how the person was going to react and most likely maneuver giving him a clean shot to drop the perp.

It's said all branches are seeing this phenomenon which in past was more a white power groups problem but as Hispanic and blacks with gang affiliations have joined military they are having same issues as the streets in major cities. Think it would suck to have gangs on bases with military firepower getting crossed up. Don't remember, think it was Army but similar story a motor pool worker with gang ties felt disrespected by another worker in motor pool and came back with his weapon and began a firefight in the motor pool killing and wounding a few people before he was taken down. Since my source is mostly television documentaries and press, what say you who have been "in country" on the subject?

Know a local man who was deployed, kept sending letters to people he knew about how tough it was, was constantly under stress of combat and not making enough money to feed his family back home. Community and a couple churches adopted his family keeping them fed and clothed plus making sure their grass was cut and more. Turned out he had a drinking and gamblind problemishes so money was not getting to wife and he had never been outside of the wire in the Iraqi capital "green zone" doing some sort of maintenance job. Amazing how some of rhe REMFs will play the people back home. Of course I say this from my armchair.
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Old April 05, 2020, 12:21   #23
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Yes. Army (and Navy) tends to use the term Pogue based upon the history dating back to WWII.

Marines tend to lean towards POG "Persons Other than Grunt."

In the context of the discussion, I used "POG" to curb a Marine argueing whether the term was "Pogue" or "POG" ... it was more applicable to the discusison.

The flip occurred. Go figure, someone looking for an argument.
I and my Dad were both Marine grunts. He got out in the '60s and I got out in the mid '90s but we only ever used and heard "pogue" and "pogie bait", never POG.

Maybe a regiment/battalion thing?
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Old April 05, 2020, 12:24   #24
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A side and rather stupid question: is the M4 considered a different boomstick or a considered a variation of the M16 family?
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Old April 05, 2020, 12:34   #25
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I and my Dad were both Marine grunts. He got out in the '60s and I got out in the mid '90s but we only ever used and heard "pogue" and "pogie bait", never POG.

Maybe a regiment/battalion thing?
Possibly generational. I went in during the late 1990s. Had plenty of "spirited" (sometimes fueled by spirits)arguments with Marine buddies over the topic. Maybe it was just for the sake of arguing. We tend to look for any opportunity to give each other shit.
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Old April 05, 2020, 12:35   #26
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A side and rather stupid question: is the M4 considered a different boomstick or a considered a variation of the M16 family?
Just a variation.
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Old April 05, 2020, 13:33   #27
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"pogie bait" song

i don't want a BAR all i want is a candy bar
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Old April 05, 2020, 22:24   #28
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Originally US Army slang, it was used as a term of contempt for a non-combat soldier. The term, derived from the Gaelic 'Póg' meaning arse, carries with it an implication of unmanliness, homosexuality, even paedophilia, since Hershey bars and other types of candy are known as ‘pogue bait’. Demonstrating the complete contempt of the combat soldier for any kind of REMF, it was probably first used troops of Irish descent but quickly became widespread as unpopular WASP officers would not know what it meant.

In Gaelic one use of the word would be in the phrase ‘Póg mo thóin’ (pronounced pogue mahone) meaning 'kiss my arse'
That pedo journalist out here on assignment is stockin' up on pogue bait again.
That pogue, REMF, asswipe wrote me up when he caught me jerking off in the latrine!

I always understood a POGUE was originally a boy on a navy ship who had sex with the sailors and candy and biscuits and stuff are used to keep the little boy happy, Hence the term POGIE bait.
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Old April 06, 2020, 14:27   #29
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I'd rather have "Candy Barr"
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Old April 07, 2020, 08:39   #30
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These poofs we call soldiers today would shit a brick if they had to carry the likes of an FAL or M1.
...said the man who never had to live with a M249 SAW as a personal weapon.

I did WW2 reenactments before I joined the Corps.

BTW: As I recall a loaded 249 weighs MORE than a loaded BAR.
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Old April 07, 2020, 09:32   #31
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
...said the man who never had to live with a M249 SAW as a personal weapon.

I did WW2 reenactments before I joined the Corps.

BTW: As I recall a loaded 249 weighs MORE than a loaded BAR.
Thus, why we are called 03humpalots.
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Old April 07, 2020, 11:17   #32
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
...said the man who never had to live with a M249 SAW as a personal weapon.

I did WW2 reenactments before I joined the Corps.

BTW: As I recall a loaded 249 weighs MORE than a loaded BAR.


It's only about a pound less than the M60 I had in Vietnam. You'd think that they could shave off a few more pounds on a 5.56x45mm weapon...

But, then there's the ammo...

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Old April 07, 2020, 11:17   #33
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Were Metal Plates offered /available for Door Kickers and guys who were guaranteed to receive multiple hits or involed in "Special Operations" that were differing from usual loadout needs ?
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Old April 07, 2020, 15:15   #34
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I have often felt a pang of jealousy when watching WW2 movies and seeing how light they traveled.

Watch a modern soldier and fireman compete with a fully plate-armored knight in an obstacle course.

All 3 studs no doubt. Here in America our FF's gear is a bit heavier insulated and larger air bottles for more interior time.

15.16# for the M249 weight dry if memory serves correct (1990's version) + 200 round drum of ammo and the worst day of my Marine Corps career was when they took my M249 and gave me a M16/203.
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Old April 07, 2020, 16:17   #35
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All 3 studs no doubt. Here in America our FF's gear is a bit heavier insulated and larger air bottles for more interior time.

15.16# for the M249 weight dry if memory serves correct (1990's version) + 200 round drum of ammo and the worst day of my Marine Corps career was when they took my M249 and gave me a M16/203.
I always asked for the M249 and they always gave it to some guy who didn’t want it, instead. Usually as punishment for being a turd.
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Old April 07, 2020, 19:22   #36
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I always asked for the M249 and they always gave it to some guy who didn’t want it, instead. Usually as punishment for being a turd.
When I arrived at my first unit (D Co. 3/7 INF) at Ft. Stewart with two other cherries, we were all issued M249s. When the next cherry shows up and someone promotes to CPL or SGT (Team Leaders were issued A2s w/M203), the baton is passed down, unless the soldier WANTED it. Of course, E4 mafia carried A2s and wanted nothing to do with the M249. During that time frame, all of our M249s were sloppy, loose and beat to hell (seriously, seemed to run better with Georgia sand in the action)... ran like shit, and then we had to clean that POS. F**k that, couldn't wait to get rid of it!

I hated the M249, until I was exposed to tight new guns. Yeah buddy, whole different ball game. Fine weapon system.
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Old April 11, 2020, 12:56   #37
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“ Outside of problems with rust, the chamber gets caked with carbon after firing a single magazine.”

Sounds like this was written by someone who has no clue what they are talking about nor interviewed anyone in the military that’s ever been used one.
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Old April 11, 2020, 21:39   #38
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Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
These poofs we call soldiers today would shit a brick if they had to carry the likes of an FAL or M1.
Was Canadian infantry went from the FAL to C7.

Combat load with FAL, Ammo, Flack Vest, steel pot and webbing... 60 lbs

Combat Load C7, Ammo, Armor (not Flack vest), kevlar helmet, Radio, Night vision, webbing... 80+ lbs

I would say the Poofs are the old guys with Fals or M1s...
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Old April 11, 2020, 21:47   #39
ftierson
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Was Canadian infantry went from the FAL to C7.

Combat load with FAL, Ammo, Flack Vest, steel pot and webbing... 60 lbs

Combat Load C7, Ammo, Armor (not Flack vest), kevlar helmet, Radio, Night vision, webbing... 80+ lbs

I would say the Poofs are the old guys with Fals or M1s...


Forrest
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Old April 11, 2020, 22:38   #40
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Originally Posted by Artigas View Post
I always asked for the M249 and they always gave it to some guy who didn’t want it, instead. Usually as punishment for being a turd.
I hated the 249 !!!. When I got to Ft drum in '85 as the FNG , I was handed the M60. I could deal with it..it at least worked !. A year later I got saddled with the 249...same kinda POS I shot in boot and watched other guys deal with. A jam sammich that often lost extractors and would never feed from magazines. I wanted away from it bad. By then we transitioned to M16A2's and I loathed them. So I went back to the M60.
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1) Culture builds upon the past
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Old April 11, 2020, 22:43   #41
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Originally Posted by lockjaw View Post
When I arrived at my first unit (D Co. 3/7 INF) at Ft. Stewart with two other cherries, we were all issued M249s. When the next cherry shows up and someone promotes to CPL or SGT (Team Leaders were issued A2s w/M203), the baton is passed down, unless the soldier WANTED it. Of course, E4 mafia carried A2s and wanted nothing to do with the M249. During that time frame, all of our M249s were sloppy, loose and beat to hell (seriously, seemed to run better with Georgia sand in the action)... ran like shit, and then we had to clean that POS. F**k that, couldn't wait to get rid of it!

I hated the M249, until I was exposed to tight new guns. Yeah buddy, whole different ball game. Fine weapon system.
The 249's I handled in 85-87 were mostly flat new and FN made pieces. ....Pieces of shit that is. The ball ammo was all lake city M855 and all the tracer was cupro nickel jacketed Belgian fodder at least until early '87. New or not "back then' it was not a fun gun to tote or shoot.
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The vice of capitolism is it's unequal sharing of blessings.
The Virtue of Socialism is it's equal sharing of MISERY.
Winston Churchill

1) Culture builds upon the past
2) The past always tries to control the future.
3) Our future is becoming less free
4) To build free societies you must limit control of the past.

All hail lord IMPOTUS and Darth Biden All hail.
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