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Old July 29, 2019, 13:05   #201
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On the suggestion that the timing of the barrel-extension and bolt could be out of whack, I removed the barrel nut again.

The slot in the upper receiver for the index-pin on the barrel-extension is quite narrow, and allows almost no lateral movement.
See the video below.

I used a Brownells reaction rod in conjunction with the Wheeler Engineering upper receiver action block to make a very small timing-adjustment.

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Old July 29, 2019, 13:24   #202
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For the benefit of readers who may be less-experienced with the tools involved, here is a pic of the Wheeler Engineering tool grabbing the upper receiver by the Picatinny rail.

The Wheeler tool gets clamped in a vise.

Here, I'm using aluminum jaw-covers to keep the vise from marring the tool.

The tool is basically a slotted piece of aluminum that slides over the Picatinny rail, and which is compressed by the vise to provide a very firm grip of the upper receiver while you wrench on it.

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Old July 29, 2019, 13:29   #203
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This is what the "reaction rod" devise looks like when it is married-up with a 1/2"-drive breaker bar.

When engaged into the lugs on the barrel extesnsion, this gives the leverage that allows you to tweak the timing of the barrel in the upper receiver just a smidgen.



Close-up of lugs on reaction rod that engage the barrel extension lugs when doing this process.

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Old July 29, 2019, 13:40   #204
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I wish I'd played-around with the bolt/carrier assembly right before making the adjustment, to get a feel for what amount of friction or contact I could feel before makeing the adjustment.

After I made the adjustment, I could not feel any dramatic impact or friction.

I do wonder whether I made any actual change in the timing, as the direction I moved the timing today is the same direction that the barrel would normally move when tightening the barrel nut.

Speaking of the barrel nut, I can say the barrel nut (Michigan Industries I believe) on this upper does not like to be removed, re-installed, re-torqued repeatedly. I could tell that the threads were starting to shed some anodizing on re-tightening this nut now for the third time in the life of this upper. There was some grittiness that could be felt while tightening the nut today. At first-engagement of the threads, the grittiness was giving me a real scare. Really was acting like it was trying to cross-thread. Maybe I stretched the threads a bit on the previous removal/replace.

I was able to get the situation under control without actually cross-threading. But, I caution it was touch-and-go for a couple minutes. Replacement Palmetto uppers can be acquired if you ruin one. I haven't seen a source for replacement barrel nuts for this exact handguard if you bugger a barrel nut.

My advice is don't get the notion that you can take that barrel nut off-and-on repeatedly without encountering problems with the threads.
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Old July 30, 2019, 20:06   #205
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Fired another 100 rounds today.

Good results as far as accuracy and function.
Might post more pics of the bolt when I get around to cleaning it.

Here we have 10 rounds fired prone, sling-supported, 100 yards.
I called the low shot. Looks like I lucked out and still clipped the 9-ring.
Not sure if it scores a 96 or a 97. That one shot 8:45(ish) may or may-not have clipped the 10-ring. Even when I peeled-off the mini Shootn-N-C, still can't tell.
I called that wide 9 left too. Didn't think it was that far when I let it go. But, it is what it is.
I have a harder time calling the high/low shots as high or low. I'll keep working on that.

Not all the targets were this good, but the problem was all me when I flung an 8 or a 7.



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Old July 31, 2019, 13:13   #206
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Here are a few pics of the condition of the bolt after yesterday's 100-round outing.

I decided to shoot the pics before cleaning. May better-highlight the wear-points.









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Old July 31, 2019, 15:08   #207
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Gary,

I am taking mine to the range the weekend of 8/10. I'll try some before and after pics of my bolt, etc. and share them here (if I can figure out the image sharing thing) so we'll have another sample to examine.
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Old July 31, 2019, 17:00   #208
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For what little it's worth, I'd be pretty unhappy if my bolt looked like Gary's...

Just sayin'...

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Old July 31, 2019, 18:31   #209
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Headspace Check

The chamber will just accept a 1.633" headspace gage. It refuses a 1.634" gage. So, headspace has grown 0.002" since everything was brand new. That's highly accelerated growth of headspace for sure. I will be keeping an eye on that. If headspace continues to grow, I will take measurements using two other bolts, and determine whether the growth is accountable to just the Palmetto bolt, or a combination of the bolt and other factors (biggest factor being probably the barrel extension).
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Old July 31, 2019, 19:46   #210
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As I look at the backside face of the bolt lugs (the area of the bolt-lug) that engages the corresponding lug on the barrel-extension, I wonder just how MUCH of that backside face of the bolt lug has physical contact with the correspondeing lug on the barrel extension.

I've got the gun all cleaned up and oiled for this weekend's outing. So, I don't want to do any experiments until after Sunday. But, when I clean it up after Sunday, I think I'll degrease the lugs on the bolt, and hit the back side of the bolt lugs with a dusting of spray paint. Then I'll assemble and drop it into battery and see how much spray paint gets wiped off the back side of the bolt lugs.

Its clear that one corner respectively of the backside of each of the bolt-lugs is getting "chiseled" off by the process of moving into and/or out of battery. It occurs to me that the more one side of each of the lugs gets chiseled, the more-narrow the engagement face (the engagment that has to contain the pressure of firing) diminishes. If this chiseling progresses, at some point there will be so little face on the bolt that something will have to yield.

It would be good to know how much engagement I actually have right now. I am of the belief that there is a "clocking" issue as to the engagment of the bolt already. I wil be concerned if I discover that those dwindling corners of the bolt are the only actual engagement. Judging from the smear-patterns of lubricant on the back of each bolt lug, I'm pretty sure I've got a whole lot more engagment than just those damaged corners of the lugs. Although, I am perplexed by the relative absence of wear of the black-oxide-or-whatever finish on the engagment surface of each lug.

If it holds together for about another 100 rounds, I will do the spray-paint thing and find out what I've got.
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Old July 31, 2019, 21:20   #211
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After looking at your bolt, firing pin and barrel extension, I pulled mine down and inspected them. The bolt lugs do show finish wear with one lug showing a small ding on one front corner. The carrier shows no marks of any kind (it is nitrided). The firing pin head still has a oval face but there are two flat space on the outer rim where it looks as if the hammer hit it while the bolt was out of battery. I could not see any damage to the barrel extension except for a half moon shaped indentation on the bolt side of one lug. It is peculiar in shape and does not match the bolt lug contours. My best guess is a machining mark of some sort.

While I have no where near what you have for a round count, I would consider my observations to be consistent with normal wear and tear. I will be keeping an eye on these areas as the round count increases so I can prevent a growing problem before it becomes significant.
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Old July 31, 2019, 21:37   #212
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If I had known in advance that this wear pattern would develop, I might have applied a small chamfer in advance to the sharp edges of the barrel extension that seem to be the principal actors responsible for most of the chewing on the bolt lugs.
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Old July 31, 2019, 21:37   #213
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I also checked the three RRA LAR-8s that I have for 'wear' in these areas of the bolt and barrel extension.

Not a 'true' AR-10, but similar pressures and whatall...

Two have a couple of hundred rounds each through them (mostly LC M80 and a reload of 150gr Hornady FMJBT (3037B) pushed by 43.2gr of AA2520 ignited by a CCI #34 primer in LC07 cases), and one has slightly more than 100 rds. Admittedly, not much, but it is what it is...

All three have slight finish wear on the back of the lugs and nothing else. I see no wear in the barrel extension.

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Old August 02, 2019, 09:34   #214
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Great thread and much appreciated!

My oldest boy, (38) bought his back in Feb. He finally took it out for the first time this week to shoot it and sight in the scope. I have been watching this thread and took along an extra Windham Weaponry bolt and extractor just in case. The extra bolt and extractor was not needed. We shot it with SA surplus and two different handloads. One with 147 grain ball and the other with 165 grain hunting loads. We had zero malfunctions of any kind. After we sighted it in for 200 yards I shot it from several different positions to include turning it on it's sides. Extraction was flawless. He hasn't gotten around to cleaning it yet but when he does I will check headspace and the lugs, however I suspect we haven't fired enough rounds in it yet for a problem to be detected.
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Old August 02, 2019, 09:51   #215
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I’d like to know about your extractor spring
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Old August 02, 2019, 22:34   #216
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I will get a hold of the boy tomorrow and take a look at it. I will let you know what it looks like and take some pictures.
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Old August 03, 2019, 16:32   #217
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Gary, His extractor spring is a two spring set up. The extractor looks like it sits higher than yours with the extractor pin out. The bottom of the extractor is almost flush with the top of the bolt. Another way to put it, (almost the full depth of the rear of the extractor is sitting above the bolt when the extractor pin is out). I hope that makes sense. I will attempt to link to the pictures but this is the first time for me using a hosting sight.

https://imgur.com/a/8CGq3yQ
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Old August 04, 2019, 16:37   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeterbay View Post
I will attempt to link to the pictures but this is the first time for me using a hosting sight.

https://imgur.com/a/8CGq3yQ
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Old August 04, 2019, 16:40   #219
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Fired another 100 rounds today.

No malfunctions of any sort.

Here's what the bolt looks like after I wiped it off with a paper towel.







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Old August 04, 2019, 16:50   #220
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200 yards.

Prone. Sling-supported.

Single-feed each shot (rifle removed from the shoulder for each shot per NRA/CMP rules)

168 Sierra Match King with 41.5 grains IMR 4895

I'm mostly satisfied with this target.
That 7 that leaked out at 5 o'clock hurt. But that's 100% the shooter and failure to follow-through on the shot.
The 10 o'clock shot is what happens when you don't get your head down on the gun properly. The shooter again.
Frankly all the low shots are simply poor execution (mostly follow-through).
If you look at 10 o'clock in the 10-ring, you can see one abnormally small hole doubled into a .30 caliber hole.
My buddy shooting 5.56 on the adjacent target could only find 19 of his shots.
We just found it. On my target.

So, I'm going with accuracy is still good. Not great. Not "X-ring."
Although 6 of the 20 shots fired were in fact X's.

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Old August 04, 2019, 17:29   #221
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As promised, I painted the bolt lugs in order to test to see how much
engagment of each lug-face was engaging with each barrel-extension face.

I am using a 1.631" headspace gage to provide ample backthrust to see how
much paint wipes off when the bolt is sent into battery. Typically, .308 Winchester
match-grade ammunition, and most milsurp 7.62 NATO measures 1.628".

Freshly painted:



Headspace gage used for test:



Pics of two sides of the bolt after re-assembling the bolt-carrier assembly
with the bolt, and working the bolt a couple dozen cycles with the headspace
gage in the chamber. Looks like all the (remaining) surface area of the
backside of each bolt lug is getting good engagement with the lugs on the barrel extension.
Clear evidence of a "chamfer" worn on the edge of each bolt
lug from friction with the respective lugs on the barrel extension.



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Old August 08, 2019, 10:02   #222
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Fella on another forum asked me to compile some information about the current configuration, and how it came about.

Mirror my reply here:

Rifle was never fired in exact original factory configuration.
Never was fired with Palmetto buffer spring or Palmetto buffer or Palmetto buffer tube.

To best of my recollection, this is the history of modifications:

FIRST MODIFIED CONFIGURATION (Day 1 configuration):
1.Magpul UBR buttstock and UBR buffer tube.
2. Geissele National Match trigger
3. DPMS LR-308 buffer spring.
4. DPMS LR-308 carbine buffer.

Rifle would not extract/eject with first modified configuration.
Maybe 30 rounds fired in first modified configuration.

SECOND MODIFIED CONFIGURATION:
5. Replaced Palmetto bolt with Fulton Armory bolt (complete Fulton bolt assembly in Palmetto carrier, with Palmetto firing pin and Palmetto cam-pin
6. Replaced Palmetto gas tube with Fulton Armory gas tube.
7. Replaced DPMS LR-308 carbine buffer with KAK 5.3 ounce buffer

Second modified configuration extracted/ejected 100%.

THIRD MODIFIED CONFIGURATION:
8. Installed Seekins adjustable gas block to see if any noticeable reduction in recoil achieved. Fired about 20 rounds. Inconclusive results. Tried various settings on the gas block to see how rifle behaved. When adjustment was set to sufficient setting to reliably eject brass, I could not tell any appreciable difference in recoil on that setting as opposed to the when the setting was adjusted to wide-open. Because competition rules disallow adjustable gas blocks, I re-installed the Palmetto OEM (non-adjustable) gas block with the Fulton gas tube. The Palmetto-block/Fulton-tube configuration has been on the rifle for at least 90% of the usage of the rifle.

FOURTH MODIFIED CONFIGURATION:
9. Removed Fulton Armory bolt
10. Installed Fulton Armory extractor assembly (extractor, polymer insert, spring, O-ring) in Palmetto bolt. Testing showed that the Palmetto bolt operates fine (except for the accelerated-wear issue) with the Fulton extractor assembly.

----------

90% of firing of rifle has been done with these modifications:
A. Magpul UBR buttstock and buffer tube
B. Geissele National Match trigger
C. KAK 5.3 ounce buffer
D. DPMS carbine-length buffer spring
E. Palmetto bolt with Fulton Armory extractor assembly


--------

Measurements/Specifications follow:



GAS TUBE PROTRUSION
Current depth of gas tube protrusion
(Fulton Armory tube)


Original depth of gas tube protrusion
(Palmetto OEM tube)






BUFFER SPRING
DPMS Buffer Spring LR-308 Carbine
From Midway USA Product #: 813595
Present relaxed spring length 11 15/32”
Spring-wire diameter 0.075’”
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1003344651?pid=813595

RECEIVER EXTENSION (A.K.A. “BUFFER TUBE”) DEPTH
Magpul UBR Generation 1
Depth: 7.00”


KAK BUFFER
Weight: 5.3
Overall length: 2.520”
https://www.kakindustry.com/lr308-carbine-buffer-heavy

GAS TUBE
Fulton Armory
Gas Tube, Rifle, FAR-308 AR
https://www.fulton-armory.com/gastuberifle-1.aspx

GAS BLOCK JOURNAL DIAMETER
Journal on barrel is 0.750”

GAS PORT DIAMETER
Gas port will accept a 3/32" (0.09375") drill bit with a very snug fit.

BARREL LENGTH
Barrel length is 20”
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Old August 08, 2019, 10:06   #223
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Gonna get some lunch, then head out to the Centreville IWLA to shoot their second-Thursday-of-the-month afternoon 100-yard highpower rifle match.

50 shots for record.

If I get there early, might get a few sighters before the match starts. Pretty sure I've got good enough 100-yard sight-dope that I should at least be inside the 9-ring if I do my part.
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Old August 08, 2019, 17:13   #224
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Why the switch from the DPMS buffer to the KAK buffer, less recoil,smoother?
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Old August 08, 2019, 18:51   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911Ron View Post
Why the switch from the DPMS buffer to the KAK buffer, less recoil,smoother?
That's a fair question to ask.

I was chasing the ejection/extraction issue when I installed the KAK buffer. It is heavier than the DPMS buffer. I make no representations that it makes the gun better, or that it actually makes any perceivable difference in the ejection/extraction. I think the extractor modification was the real key. I left the KAK buffer in the gun because that's what was in it when the gun stopped choking. Figured might as well leave sleeping dogs at that point.
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Old August 08, 2019, 18:51   #226
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The rifle functioned fine at the match today.

Another 60 rounds through it.

Very hot conditions. My first time at this match. Man, they run it fast. I guess that's what happens when the start time is 1600 for a highpower rifle match.

My score was embarrassing. A ton of pulse and wobble and body-stiffness, and blah-blah-blah....

I'm working on the multi-volume set.




Someone asked about cam-pin dimensions.

Here we have it after ~500 rounds











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Old August 08, 2019, 20:55   #227
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For the record, my gun is a Palmetto “Generation 2” model.

Palmetto has just recently released a “Generation 3” model upper.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...th-bcg-ch.html

The Generation 3 ostensibly has an improved extractor that I guess actually extracts, and a bolt carrier that is cut so it won’t slam into the buffer-tube threads. Also, comes with adjustable gas block, and “black nitride” gas tube of undisclosed length. Hopefully, the new tube on the 20” model isn’t the same stubby dimension as equipped on the Generation 2. The bolt-carrier group is disclosed as being “Toolcraft” brand.

I hear there is also. Generation 3 lower with “heavy” buffer of undisclosed weight, and an improved trigger.
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Old August 09, 2019, 15:33   #228
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I cleaned-up the rifle real good after yesterday’s highpower rifle match.

With the rifle all squeaky-clean, this was a good time to re-check the headspace.

I have a set of Forster headspace gages in 0.001” increments from 1.630” to 1.638”

The rifle swallowed the 1.633” gage without resistance.
It swallowed the 1.634” gage with some slight resistance. Had to lightly mortar the rifle to get it to spit-out the 1.634” gage.

Then I got the braniac idea to “see what would happen” if I tried to feed it the 1.635” gage.
Maaaannnnn……
Wish I hadn’t done that. That thing seized-up in partial battery like no tomorrow.

I mortared it zealously a number of times. Not budging.

It was fortuitous that the partial-battery condition it was stuck in was such that the charging-handle latch was not engaged in the
“catch” on the upper receiver. If the latch had been engaged into the "catch" on the receiver I suppose I could have taped the latch
in the release-position or some such or come up with a third hand somehow. Anyway, time to BRING OUT THE HAMMERS.

While sort-of resting the rifle muzzle-upward, and bracing with my knee and my shoulder, I placed the face of big rubber handle
against one ear of the charging handle, and I wailed on the opposite face with the 4# hammer. After several blows of the 4#
hammer, the rifle spat the 1.635” across the room, and crisis was averted. Lesson learned: Once you get to the point with
headspace gages that you have to mortar the rifle at all to get the rifle to spit the gage out. JUST STOP RIGHT THERE.
Don’t try the next-size-up gage.

With the rifle now clear, I swapped-in my spare DPMS bolt to see what difference there might be in headspace.
The DPMS bolt came out of a 2008-vintage DPMS LR-308-T rifle. That bolt probably has about 200-300 rounds fired on it
in the LR-308-T, and a few rounds to confirm function also in the Palmetto gun.

The headspace dimension of the DPMS bolt was exactly the same as the headspace dimension of the now well-worn Palmetto bolt:
1.634” (with light mortar action required to get the rifle to spit-out the 1.634” gage).

For context, I’ll mention that the headspace dimension of most match-grade .308 Winchester ammunition is 1.628”.
Some milsurp 7.62 NATO ammo measures slightly longer in headspace dimension – although most NATO-spec ammo I’ve measured
is the same dimension as the .308 Winchester match-grade ammo. I use an RCBS Precision Mic tool in conjunction with the Forster
headspace gages to arrive at “headspace dimension” measurements of ammunition.

Nothing like a little excitement on a Friday afternoon.



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Old August 11, 2019, 08:13   #229
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Yesterday’s range trip started with a better-than-average 20-shot offhand string.

I decided to next shoot slow-fire prone. Got in position to dry fire. Squeeeeze the trigger for first dry-fire shot. Mmmmph! That looked shaky. Breeaathhhe.... another dry-fire. Wait a cotton-pickin’ minute! That crosshair ain’t supposed to shake like that!

Reached up and grabbed the scope tube. Shake-shake. Rattle-rattle. Consarn-it. Scope loose in the mount! Busted out the wrenches, and tightened all the screws. Spent rest of outing re-establishing zeroes for all firing positions. Seems that re-tightening caused one MOA elevation change in what I “thought” was my “good zero.”

Back to the range today to see if zeros are good, and see how my bones manage two days in a row shooting 100 rounds in “the big gun.”
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Old August 11, 2019, 19:29   #230
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About 100 rounds downrange again today.
Had to shoot on the 100-yard range because the benchrest crowd was shooting the Virginia State Benchrest Championship on our 200-yard range.

Weird thing with the slow-fire prone. I was calling shots center, and it was randomly kicking shots out at 7 o’clock. Several of those shots I called a strong center-shot. Wondering if the scope is doing something wonky. Going to install the scope and mount on one of my reliable 5.56 competition guns and see if same thing happens with shots inexplicably kicking out of the group to 7 o’clock.

Ammo for the prone targets was 168 Sierra Matchking and 41.5 IMR 4895. Ammo for the sitting and offhand targets was surplus Santa Barbara (Spanish military).

Penny in the pics to help with viewing the scale.

A couple rapid-fire targets that score pretty well, even if the groups are nothing to get excited about. Rapid fire prone time limit is 70 seconds, although I shot it in about 57 seconds. Rapid fire sitting time limit is 60 seconds – needed almost all of that time. Magazine-change in each rapid-fire string. Magazines loaded five-and-five.

40 shots offhand. Fewer “bad shots” than usual in this lot. Zero could have been better. But, I’ve been chasing an offhand zero since 1991. The quest continues.







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Old August 11, 2019, 19:56   #231
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FYI, Palmetto is releasing a Mk4 version of its receivers and dumping the Mk3s.
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Old August 11, 2019, 22:08   #232
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FYI, Palmetto is releasing a Mk4 version of its receivers and dumping the Mk3s.
Is "Mk" synonymous with "Generation?"

I thought Palmetto was just-now releasing Generation 3.

Have they already moved-on to Generation 4?
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Old August 12, 2019, 14:56   #233
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I think I’m at about 700 rounds on the Palmetto bolt.

It is apparent that the corners of the bolt-lugs are wearing more with each outing. So, there is less “face” on the bolt lug engaging with the lugs on the barrel extension. I had hoped that this wear-behavior would settle down such that the bolt would have reached its happy medium. Its clear to me now, that isn’t going to happen. This bolt is just going to keep giving up more-and-more of the corners of the bolt lugs until something gives out.

I’d be curious to know how this bolt might ultimately fail. I’ve never actually broken a bolt on an AR-type rifle (if you don’t include the incident with the pierced-primer damage from the thin CCI 400 primers in 5.56 some twenty years ago.). I’m at the point where running this bolt further is just going to be about as interesting as the time in 1977 when I loaded-up a gas can, and drove my car on the highway to see how low the gas gauge would go before the car literally ran out of gas. As it turned out, that adventure was a whole lot of inconvenience, and not very interesting. Hoping that I’ve learned my lesson at this point in my life, I’m not going to keep pushing this bolt until it causes me a wasted range trip.

As of this morning, I have a Toolcraft BCG inbound. I ordered the one with the dual ejectors and the small firing pin. $159 for the whole shebang seemed reasonable. If for some reason it doesn’t work out, at least I’ll be able to tell it from the other AR-10 parts that seem to be multiplying around here.

Here’s some pics of the Palmetto bolt after about 700 rounds.













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Old August 13, 2019, 11:58   #234
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I'd be pissed if my AR shot like that, not to mention the bolt wear.

How does it shoot off of bags?
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Old August 13, 2019, 12:26   #235
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How does it shoot off of bags?
The predicate question to ask is: How does the SHOOTER shoot off bags?

In my experience, when testing service rifles, I shoot them a lot better from prone with a sling than I do off bags.

Maybe if I had an elegant bag rig, results would be better.

Seriously, the way I was getting shots that jumped from one spot - to another spot - and then back - in a consistent pattern, really makes me think its down to a scope issue. I plan to test this by swapping scopes. Results coming soon - or eventually.

The bolt getting chewed-up is a separate issue. The lugs on the barrel extension all had some small burrs. I just got done knocking-down the burrs with a file. At least best as I could by reaching in through the receiver. Definitely made a difference with the Q-Tips. the barrel-extension lugs aren't plucking fibers off a Q-Tip anymore. If that means anything.
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Old August 16, 2019, 12:16   #236
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Interesting on the bolt lugs. Looks like progress is being made.

I'm interested how it shoots after you swap scopes.

I got all my bags from Triad Tactical, though I usually shoot off of a bipod with either my hand or a bag supporting the stock, depending on the situation.
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Old August 16, 2019, 14:59   #237
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That's a fair question to ask.

I was chasing the ejection/extraction issue when I installed the KAK buffer. It is heavier than the DPMS buffer. I make no representations that it makes the gun better, or that it actually makes any perceivable difference in the ejection/extraction. I think the extractor modification was the real key. I left the KAK buffer in the gun because that's what was in it when the gun stopped choking. Figured might as well leave sleeping dogs at that point.
Thanks, i was curious if it made a difference as i'm new to 308 ARs and i am learning about buffers and tuning
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Old August 19, 2019, 13:03   #238
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Gary,

I finally got my new Gen II PSA-10 out to the range this weekend. (No photos yet)

The rifle itself is configured as follows:
  • Stock Gen II PSA-10 lower with 20" free float upper
  • Larue MBT-2 trigger
  • Flashhider replaced with threaded cap
  • Limbsaver snap-on pad on stock collapsible buttstock
  • Vortex 4-16 X 42 Diamondback scope on Vortex one piece mount

Here are my results:
  • Best load: 3/4 MOA from 43.5 grains of Varget, 2.800" COL, 168grn Sierra Match King, Winchester brass, CCI primer
  • Second Best Load: 7/8 MOA from 44.8grns Varget, 2.75" COL, 150 Sierra Game King, Winchester brass, CCI primer

All rounds fired off a bench, using a rest. Both loads held under an inch at 100 yards and the 3/4-7/8 MOA groups held at 200 yards. I built this rifle to hunt deer this fall and feel confident with it.

Furthermore, I had zero malfunctions in the 100+ rounds I fired. And, when I pulled it apart to clean it yesterday afternoon, I did not note any significant wear on the lug mating surfaces.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with it.
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Old August 24, 2019, 18:04   #239
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Gary,

I finally got my new Gen II PSA-10 out to the range this weekend.
  • Best load: 3/4 MOA from 43.5 grains of Varget, 2.800" COL, 168grn Sierra Match King, Winchester brass, CCI primer
  • Second Best Load: 7/8 MOA from 44.8grns Varget, 2.75" COL, 150 Sierra Game King, Winchester brass, CCI primer

All rounds fired off a bench, using a rest. Both loads held under an inch at 100 yards and the 3/4-7/8 MOA groups held at 200 yards.
How many rounds fired in each group?
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Old August 24, 2019, 18:04   #240
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Shooting the PA-10 a little more today.

Still shooting the beat-up Palmetto bolt.

TLDR version:
PA-10 shoots consistently low/high. Testing today indicates that the problem is not the scope.


If you’ve been following this thread, you’ve read my comments about how the rifle seems to disperse shots high/low more than I care for. I became concerned that perhaps the cause of the vertical dispersion was the Leupold Mark AR scope.

Today I tested the Leupold scope on the PA-10, and also tested the same scope-and-mount on a well-worn (~5000 round-count) White Oak 5.56 (Wilson barrel) service rifle upper. The Larue quick-detach mount allowed me to easily move the scope from the PA-10 to the White Oak.

I scanned the targets below from the backside of each target so as to show the group-size, and to avoid the visual distraction of the scoring rings of the targets. But, speaking of the scoring rings, my observation is that the PA-10, equipped with the Larue scope, kicks shots low and high about one full scoring ring more than what I typically get when I shoot the same scope on a White Oak 5.56 gun. Target used for testing was the MR31 target (600 yard National Match target reduced for 100 yards).

There is one especially high shot on the PA-10 target. I called that shot high when I fired it. I didn’t think it would land THAT high, but full-disclosure, I called that shot high. Further in keeping with “full disclosure” I fired two shots before I touched adjustment knobs. The first two shots were a little higher within the scoring rings than I wanted to see. So, after the first two shots, I dialed it down 2 clicks (each click worth 0.1 mil – which is one-third of an inch per click on the 100-yard target). I didn’t touch the elevation after that initial adjustment. The first two shots are fairly centered in the 18-shot group you see in the pic. After that single elevation-adjustment, the remaining 16 shots danced high/low with no particular rhyme or reason other than that one called-high shot I mentioned.

Hard to say what causes the PA-10 to print low/high all the time. I previously examined the barrel/receiver fit – even removed the barrel from the receiver – and the fit seems really tight. Maybe its something to do with the bolt. Although, the high/low issue was evident before the bolt got so chewed up. Current round-count on the PA-10 is about 700 rounds.

I suppose the next outing I will try the new Toolcraft bolt/carrier assembly and see if it has any effect on the high/low issue. I can’t think of a good reason WHY changing bolt/carrier would make any difference. But, not much to lose by trying I suppose. If changing the bolt/carrier doesn’t make a difference, I’ll try lapping the upper receiver. I have the kit. If that doesn’t solve the high/low problem with this rifle, I’m not sure I’m motivated to invest in a high-end barrel just to see what happens. My future with this rifle has limits. So, at least two more range trips to try to “get it to shoot.” The beat goes on…




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Old August 24, 2019, 19:41   #241
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My WAG is the bolt is the culprit, I'm thinking that the bolt locks up differently every so often and it throws that round either high or low, it could also explain the strange wear pattern on the bolt. Of course I could so far off with my theory!
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Old August 24, 2019, 20:40   #242
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My WAG is the bolt is the culprit, I'm thinking that the bolt locks up differently every so often and it throws that round either high or low, it could also explain the strange wear pattern on the bolt. Of course I could so far off with my theory!
To the extent the persistent issue can be attributed to the bolt, I have considered that possibility, and I regard it as the most credible possibility.

In the interest of efficiency of opportunity, I may just go ahead and pull the barrel again, and lap the reciver with my newfangled lapping tool. Then take it to the range with the new Toolcraft bolt and carrier assembly. It would be swell if that solves the problem.

I suppose I could consider installing a Criterion barrel.
https://www.fulton-armory.com/barrel...kthreaded.aspx

Somthing just rubs me with the idea of spending Krieger money on this dalliance.
https://www.fulton-armory.com/barrel...hreaded-2.aspx
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Old August 24, 2019, 21:07   #243
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How many rounds fired in each group?
Five shots in each group. I might have grouped better if I weren't out of practice and did a better job controlling the the flyers.
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Old August 31, 2019, 10:37   #244
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WEG, very interesting thread. I have a bit of experience with a PA-10 (gen 1) based rifle. It has been interesting to say the least.

In its first iteration it was a .308 win rifle.
Barrel: 16 inch chrome lined criterion barrel from brownells. W/ m118 chamber and 1:10 twist rate
Bolt and bcc: aimsurplus dpms style, black nitride maybe? The specs on these seem good for the money.
Upper and lower receiver/small parts: psa pa-10 gen 1
Trigger: geisselle flat faced trigger, cant remember the model.
Rail: midwest industries
Gas block: slr industries adjustable

Anyway, I had a big stash of LC LR. It was the stuff loaded with 175 gr. It shot super fast in this gun and I suffered pierced primers from time to time. On the other hand it shot extremely small groups. I took it to new Mexico and we rang an 8" gong out to 800yds with it all day. My friends last mag he went 8 or 9 for 10 at 800yds. We we're shooting off bipods and a rear bag in the prone. The hold over was up there, but the wind was in our face so it wasnt a thing really.

Anyway, the gun has shot and functioned flawlessly. I did have to do some grinding on the lower to get it to take magpul .308 mags. That was a problem with the gen 1's I guess. That being said I think the gen 1's were the best looking receivers so far.

I rebarreled in to 6.5 cm and only fired around 75 rds through it so far of hornady black 140gr. It shoots good enough with the black to shoot steel with.
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Old September 16, 2019, 06:00   #245
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Here are a few pics of the condition of the bolt after yesterday's 100-round outing.

I decided to shoot the pics before cleaning. May better-highlight the wear-points.









The Gen3 PA10 upper has relief cuts to allow for more choice in other BCG's. The lug wear on that bolt is unsat.
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Old October 14, 2019, 20:39   #246
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I have following this thread for awhile. A month ago when Bozo o'dork was talking
gun confiscation, I picked up a Palemtto PA-10 Gen III with the 2-stage nickel
boron trigger.

Right now I have 100 or so rounds through it as I work up loads using a
variety of powders and Hornady 168gr HPBT bullets.

No complaints so far. Had to adjust the gas port to get it to cycle properly
and have had one FTF that probably was an ammo issue.

The accuracy is good and have shot some 1 1/2" 5 shots groups as
I work up loads.

I have been looking the bolt closely after each outing and have not noticed
any wear to speak of.

Stay away from Hex mags. The rifle fell off the bench on concrete,
landing on a loaded magazine which cracked on the back side.

More information and hopefully some groups with be forthcoming.

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Old October 14, 2019, 20:43   #247
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Cool.

I need to get through a couple projects (bolt-gun and buckshot) this week so I can get back to the PA-10 M-110 tribute and Blasty Carbine stuff.
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Old October 14, 2019, 21:31   #248
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Pffft! You “gun guys” have way too much time
On your hands...
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Old October 15, 2019, 22:51   #249
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W.E.G., that bolt looks like it has some big dingers on the lugs. Is that true? I agree with your "unacceptable" assessment.

I was thinking of getting into one. Now, not so much.
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Old October 16, 2019, 19:00   #250
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Have shot about 150 rounds so far through my Gen III PA-10. Runs like a top
after adjusting the gas port. Only had one FTF, which may have been ammo
related. The gun, being heavy, is very soft shooting. I am a happy camper.

Zeroing in the loads. Here are 2 of the best groups, at 100 yards, using Varget with Hornady 168gr HPBT and Hornady 155gr AMAX.



I have also had some success with AA2520 but RL-15 loads were marginal.

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