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Old December 03, 2019, 07:50   #1
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Creedmore Bolt Guns: Why?

Brother got one. I fail to see the point unless one is already heavy on 6.5CM for a semi. Once one eliminates the constraint of mag length for a legacy semi action I see little advantage over quite a few calibers that can accomplish similar/superior ballistics. Before bragging on powder efficiency I'd like to review the ROI on buying an entirely new rifle to save money on gunpowder. Weight savings for a short action? Most 6.5 CM guns seem to come with heavy varmint 24" tubes. Speed of a short action? Please.

If the answer is "because I want one" then there is no argument. Attempts to justify otherwise confound me.
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Old December 03, 2019, 11:49   #2
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It R accurate. It was designed to be a "target" shooting cartridge from the getgo.
Most of the rifles chambered for it are "Precision Rifles" and heavy barreled ones as you mentioned. I'm sure that there will be standard and lightweight rifles in this cartridge eventually if not already.

For my purposes, it offers nothing that my 6.5X55 won't handle, but the old Swede is hampered by loads and loading data at 46K PSI to keep old rifles safe. My rifle is a CZ 550 and I can make the old Swede quite zippy.

I would prefer the .260 Rem or 6.5-08 to the Creedmore, but I like hunting type rifles with wood stocks and haven't been bitten by the modern trend in "Precision" riflery.
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Old December 03, 2019, 12:01   #3
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It R accurate. It was designed to be a "target" shooting cartridge from the getgo.
Most of the rifles chambered for it are "Precision Rifles" and heavy barreled ones as you mentioned. I'm sure that there will be standard and lightweight rifles in this cartridge eventually if not already.

For my purposes, it offers nothing that my 6.5X55 won't handle, but the old Swede is hampered by loads and loading data at 46K PSI to keep old rifles safe. My rifle is a CZ 550 and I can make the old Swede quite zippy.

I would prefer the .260 Rem or 6.5-08 to the Creedmore, but I like hunting type rifles with wood stocks and haven't been bitten by the modern trend in "Precision" riflery.
About sums up my thoughts too...

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Old December 03, 2019, 12:43   #4
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Compare the Creedmoor faftory ammo offerings to the other 6.5's and get back to us.

The real question is "why not?" (although I do agree that is better suited to a semi-auto, with most quality semis able to keep pace with, if not outclass, most bolt actions).
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Old December 03, 2019, 12:54   #5
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Compare the Creedmoor faftory ammo offerings to the other 6.5's and get back to us.

The real question is "why not?" (although I do agree that is better suited to a semi-auto, with most quality semis able to keep pace with, if not outclass, most bolt actions).
25-06. 7mm Rem Mag. 260. Nothing magical about a 6.5mm bullet. 6.5 CM is a whimpy bolt gun.
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Old December 03, 2019, 13:46   #6
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If the answer is "because I want one" then there is no argument. Attempts to justify otherwise confound me.
This attitude coupled with your other response here proves to me you are just looking for an argument. Don't like green cars, don't buy one, don't like blue shoes, don't buy any, dont like girls don't date one, and if you don't like 6.5cm bolt guns, don't buy one of them either. If you believe what you think should matter to anyone else you are either hitting the sauce or a snowflake liberal. I hope it's the former.
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Old December 03, 2019, 14:48   #7
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For my purposes, it offers nothing that my 6.5X55 won't handle, but the old Swede is hampered by loads and loading data at 46K PSI to keep old rifles safe. My rifle is a CZ 550 and I can make the old Swede quite zippy.
So is the load data only up to 46K PSI? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5%C3%9755mm_Swedish claims even SAAMI puts it a bit higher.
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Old December 03, 2019, 15:05   #8
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Not a caliber question... You, whether you realize it or not, are asking what justifies a bolt gun for a round that will go into a semi. Whether you like it or not bolt guns are inherently more accurate. No, not because of anything about the barrel or lockup or what typically affects accuracy, but the loading action itself. If the feed of the semi alters or distorts the projo in any way during the self-loading process accuracy for that one round (and any others that may get altered) will suffer, thus bringing down the overall accuracy of the rifle. If you are single feeding then it makes no difference (and you have essentially made a bolt gun out of a semi by doing so), but the odds of something happening to a projo in an auto-fed weapon are always higher than in the push-fed.

That, in a nutshell, is the "why" you might consider it, where rate of fire doesn't mean much. You could ask the same question about any round that is available in a semi, and the answer will be the same across the board. If there is any doubt to that go look at the percentages of autos vs bolt guns in long-range competitions. While they have been dramatically improved, autos still aren't the preferred action, and likely never will be.
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Old December 03, 2019, 15:06   #9
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Attempts to justify otherwise confound me.
My father uses his 6.5CM to shoot F-Class. 6.5CM is quite popular with the competition crowd because they fit a short action, low recoil, high ballistic coefficient, they're a fairly accurate design, and quality brass makes like Lapua offer components for them. He shoots his so much he's on his second barrel.

Also, people don't use semi-autos to shoot F-Class. Semis aren't accurate enough to hang with bolt guns.

So there; there's a reasonable justification.
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Old December 03, 2019, 15:38   #10
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About sums up my thoughts too...

Forrest


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Count me three.....

The cartridge was designed to fit in a 308 semi auto mag and even at that, cant use anything but light and mid weight bullets for the caliber.
Its in the same boat as 6.8 to me..and it holds the same interest level,,,none.
I'll be keeping my 6.5-06 and 270, thank you very much....
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Old December 03, 2019, 15:48   #11
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I'll be keeping my (cut) 270, thank you very much....
American Rifleman magazine just had a comparison article on the Creedmore vs 270 in the last few months. I have very little interest in either cartridge and just briefly scanned the article while eating lunch one day. IIRC however, it was strongly advocating the Creedmore and stated several advantages. Facts or Fake News? IDK.

Again, I don't recall the details, but it may be worth a search for someone with interest.
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Old December 03, 2019, 17:37   #12
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This attitude coupled with your other response here proves to me you are just looking for an argument. Don't like green cars, don't buy one, don't like blue shoes, don't buy any, dont like girls don't date one, and if you don't like 6.5cm bolt guns, don't buy one of them either. If you believe what you think should matter to anyone else you are either hitting the sauce or a snowflake liberal. I hope it's the former.
I'm for sure always in for a good argument. I'm also occasionally open to well thought out reason. I'm not a lib, havent hit the sauce yet, but might reply to you more after I do. You've offered nothing to the discussion, though. I've actually come up with a couple items in favor of the 6.5 CM in a bolt gun. Please, try harder. Or are you just here for an argument?
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Old December 03, 2019, 17:49   #13
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I'd like a 6.5 Creed in bolt action. Been looking at the offerings from Savage. Looks like fun . . . . and it won't throw brass all over the range for one. No need to tune the gas system either, but that should really not be a problem. On the other hand . . . I built an AR-10 about two year ago in 7.62 . . . still runs a little rough, but I have only feed it surplus. Been toying with the idea of just swapping out the barrel for a 6.5 Creed. The barrels I want have always been out of stock when I take the time to shop for one.

I finally ordered a decent scope for said rifle. I should really just order up some decent 7.62 and see if it runs.

Savage makes some nice rifles, and fairly accurate as well. I kind of like the look of their more classic Model 110 Tactical Desert. Classic Arms just had them on sale for $500 . . . but the Mrs. would not be happy if I picked up another rifle. I could probably take receipt of a barrel . . . and she would not notice it this time of year . . . with all of the Christmas stuff showing up at the house.

I also agree with what jhend170 has to say about projectile distortion . . . I'm not sure how much this happens, but it can be avoided in a bolt action.
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Old December 03, 2019, 18:28   #14
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I'd like a 6.5 Creed in bolt action. Been looking at the offerings from Savage. Looks like fun . . . . and it won't throw brass all over the range for one. No need to tune the gas system either, but that should really not be a problem. On the other hand . . . I built an AR-10 about two year ago in 7.62 . . . still runs a little rough, but I have only feed it surplus. Been toying with the idea of just swapping out the barrel for a 6.5 Creed. The barrels I want have always been out of stock when I take the time to shop for one.

I finally ordered a decent scope for said rifle. I should really just order up some decent 7.62 and see if it runs.

Savage makes some nice rifles, and fairly accurate as well. I kind of like the look of their more classic Model 110 Tactical Desert. Classic Arms just had them on sale for $500 . . . but the Mrs. would not be happy if I picked up another rifle. I could probably take receipt of a barrel . . . and she would not notice it this time of year . . . with all of the Christmas stuff showing up at the house.

I also agree with what jhend170 has to say about projectile distortion . . . I'm not sure how much this happens, but it can be avoided in a bolt action.
Brother got the Savage 12 FV in 6.5 CM. Might be a Bass Pro exclusive? Now talking about upgrading the stock. Not the stiffest forearm but I'm pretty sure I would keep as is or have opted for a rifle that came with better stock from factory. Savage arent elegant in the physical sense, but they sure have built a reputation for performance where it counts.
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Old December 03, 2019, 18:34   #15
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Take a look at the hunting world where the 6.5cr has taken OVER it seems.
Its the most popular hunting caliber out there these days.

Ive yet to go over to it just having too many years in 308 and 7mag but every one of my hunting friends has dived in the 6.5 cool aid.

In truth I would have never even thought of it in a semi.
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Old December 03, 2019, 19:39   #16
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I have two bolt rifles in that caliber. One is a Ruger Precision that is perfectly stable for long range accuracy shooting and likes the 143 and 147 grain bullets out there. The second I use as a hunting rifle, a Savage 110 LE Tactical. The heavy barrel is overkill, but it is accurate to a fault. I got it as a hunting rifle for one reason, I was tired of getting beat up by the recoil on my '06 and .308 hunting rifles. And I was pleasantly surprised at the terminal effects on thin skinned critters at hunting ranges.
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Old December 03, 2019, 20:28   #17
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Trendy...

Who remembers all the other chamberings that were met with high regard just a few years ago.

6.5 Grendel
204 Ruger
6.8 Special
.40 S&W
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Old December 03, 2019, 20:32   #18
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Most shooters are weiners that say “its to heavy” or anything that kicks harder than an ar15 is brutal (whimper whimper). I would use the .270. If ya think a 270 has brutal recoil turn in your man-card.

https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/6...70-winchester/
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Old December 03, 2019, 20:46   #19
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I can easily understand the precision rifle part, great ballistics from the 6.5. But to then to offer it in Ruger American plastic stock gun and call it a revolutionary hunting rifle is a it of a stretch when my .260 will do what the 6.5 CR is trying to re-invent all day long.

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Old December 03, 2019, 21:12   #20
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I would like to see a semi auto keep up with my bolt. My factory RPR is 1/2 MOA with factory hornady 147 grain, uses the same mags as your semi auto, and cost $1000. Please show me a semi auto in that price range that is under 2 moa.

As for the 6.5CM, with 147 grain bullets the ballistics are phenomenal, recoil is light and loaded ammo is cheap compared to other ammo in the same class. I can buy 1moa factory loads for $.70 a round, lets see any other ammo in that price range that will out shoot the 6.5cm.
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Old December 03, 2019, 22:36   #21
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“In energy, velocity and drop, the 270 Winchester wins. In wind deflection, recoil, cycling speed, and potentially compact rifle size (short action,) the Creedmoor comes out on top.”

That sums it pretty well.
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Old December 04, 2019, 00:56   #22
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Trendy...

Who remembers all the other chamberings that were met with high regard just a few years ago.

....

.40 S&W
I have a bunch of those.
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Old December 04, 2019, 04:49   #23
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I've got all the 6.5's to suit my needs.

6.5 Grendel in a 20" AR
6.5x55 hand loaded for my Encore rifle.
264 WM in a Flaig Ace US M1917 action.

The CM offers nothing better for me and If I chose another 6.5 it would be a 260 Remington.
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Old December 04, 2019, 06:33   #24
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Personally,,the only thing I see the creedmore excelling at, is in vast quanity of factory offerings.
People can get into a precision rifle and ammo easily and off the shelf.
So dont get me wrong,,,I think thats a very good thing,,,it just dosent hold much appeal for those of us that have been at this game with better calibers for decades already....
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Old December 04, 2019, 06:54   #25
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I would like to see a semi auto keep up with my bolt. My factory RPR is 1/2 MOA with factory hornady 147 grain, uses the same mags as your semi auto, and cost $1000. Please show me a semi auto in that price range that is under 2 moa.

As for the 6.5CM, with 147 grain bullets the ballistics are phenomenal, recoil is light and loaded ammo is cheap compared to other ammo in the same class. I can buy 1moa factory loads for $.70 a round, lets see any other ammo in that price range that will out shoot the 6.5cm.
I dont think anyone claimed a semi would out-shoot a bolt. I will say that the Creedmore seems to be the best choice for a long range semi having the constraint of a 308-sized not mag. A bolt gun does not have such a constraint (unless one simply must have a detachable magazine). So one can choose ANY caliber, and some that seem superior to the 6.5 CM.

Drift vs drop: if shooting targets at known ranges I'll take the caliber that bucks the wind. If I have to estimate ranges I'll take the flat shooters.
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Old December 04, 2019, 12:57   #26
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25-06. 7mm Rem Mag. 260. Nothing magical about a 6.5mm bullet. 6.5 CM is a whimpy bolt gun.
No, there's nothing magic about the various 6.5mm offerings; just physics.


Why bother with a .308 bolt gun when the Creedmoor outpaces it in terms of velocity and energy after 350-400m, and will clean .308's clock at long range? 7 Mag means a three, maybe four round magazine and a drastic increase in recoil for very little appreciable gain (and I do like 7mm). 99% of hunters will not be able to take advantage of the performance advantages of 7mm, .300 PRC, .300 Win. Mag, etc... .260 and 6.5 CM are so close in practical terms that it just comes down to splitting hairs, but again Creedmoor wins handily when it comes to high quality factory ammo.
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Old December 04, 2019, 14:52   #27
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Ain't nuttin the 6.5 can do that heavy .308 boat tails can't do better
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Old December 04, 2019, 15:59   #28
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Ain't nuttin the 6.5 can do that heavy .308 boat tails can't do better
Now see, you went and done it. If this thread doesnt get a lot friendlier or a lot nastier I'm gonna delete it. As is we're wandering between epic extremes.
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Old December 04, 2019, 16:02   #29
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....
.40 S&W
Judging from the number of .40 S&W offerings listed at gun-deals.com, it's the fourth most popular handgun caliber. (I'm including .22 LR in that list.)
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Old December 04, 2019, 17:11   #30
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Now see, you went and done it. If this thread doesnt get a lot friendlier or a lot nastier I'm gonna delete it. As is we're wandering between epic extremes.
Comparison of 140 gr 6.5 Creedmor to 168 gr .308 fired out of a 22 to 24 in barrel. 6.5 does have some slight ballistic advantage, but at the cost of a lighter bullet and a caliber that is not to likely to be found in the hands of friendly troops when the dreck hits the rotating blades.

Is there really an advantage?

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ba...+Create+Chart+

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ba...+Create+Chart+
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Old December 04, 2019, 17:36   #31
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Comparison of 140 gr 6.5 Creedmor to 168 gr .308 fired out of a 22 to 24 in barrel. 6.5 does have some slight ballistic advantage, but at the cost of a lighter bullet and a caliber that is not to likely to be found in the hands of friendly troops when the dreck hits the rotating blades.

Is there really an advantage?

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ba...+Create+Chart+

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ba...+Create+Chart+
I think I'll dance with what brung me. I pared down my gun pile and consolidated ammo. I dont see a 6.5 CM in my future. If I had more chang to jangle I might, but the allure doesnt justify the cost for me.
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Old December 04, 2019, 19:53   #32
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My 120 year old swedish mauser will out shoot most of these overpriced "new" designs. Mauser got it right a long long time ago.
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Old December 05, 2019, 12:38   #33
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Ain't nuttin the 6.5 can do that heavy .308 boat tails can't do better
With bullets above ~190 grs., yeah. Good luck getting that in anything less than a Win. Mag.

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My 120 year old swedish mauser will out shoot most of these overpriced "new" designs. Mauser got it right a long long time ago.
I don't doubt you, but prove it.
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Old December 05, 2019, 13:51   #34
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FWIW: we now have a total of (6) Savage 12 FV/6.5 CMs in the family. Cabelas sells these at deep discount from time to time, and on black Friday. We completely hand-load using Hornady precision ELD-X 143 grain. I'd share fps but, I don't care to get into it. Suffice it to say that out of 7 gun safes full of bolt guns (old, curio and relic, new, exotic, and common) and shooter ages ranging between 13, to an 87 year-old. We all love shooting our 6.5 CMs most. Whether it be target shooting out to 1200 yards (capable of more, but this is my current max) or elk hunting... Fad? Perhaps, but not one of us in the family is into these to be flashy, or show-off at the range. If this were the case, we'd be toting around high-end custom guns. Not Cabelas' specials. Fact is; they work, and work extremely well. Like any good tool should.
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Old December 05, 2019, 14:11   #35
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FWIW: we now have a total of (6) Savage 12 FV/6.5 CMs in the family. Cabelas sells these at deep discount from time to time, and on black Friday. We completely hand-load using Hornady precision ELD-X 143 grain. I'd share fps but, I don't care to get into it. Suffice it to say that out of 7 gun safes full of bolt guns (old, curio and relic, new, exotic, and common) and shooter ages ranging between 13, to an 87 year-old. We all love shooting our 6.5 CMs most. Whether it be target shooting out to 1200 yards (capable of more, but this is my current max) or elk hunting... Fad? Perhaps, but not one of us in the family is into these to be flashy, or show-off at the range. If this were the case, we'd be toting around high-end custom guns. Not Cabelas' specials. Fact is; they work, and work extremely well. Like any good tool should.
I'm certainly not arguing against any of what it said here (and I have nothing against the 6.5CM), but I could say the same thing about the cheapie Howas I have in 6.5x55mm...

Just sayin'...

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Old December 05, 2019, 14:32   #36
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I could say the same thing about the cheapie Howas I have in 6.5x55mm...
Agreed, Forrest. And, I've not compared bullet coefficients between the two, or anything. And, other than maybe Swiss Sig Sauer I don't really have any brand preference/loyalties. Although, I will say; that Savage accu-trigger sure is sweet...
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Old December 05, 2019, 14:49   #37
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Agreed, Forrest. And, I've not compared bullet coefficients between the two, or anything. And, other than maybe Swiss Sig Sauer I don't really have any brand preference/loyalties. Although, I will say; that Savage accu-trigger sure is sweet...
And I certainly agree with that...

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Old December 05, 2019, 16:20   #38
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The 6.5 Creedmore and .260 Remington are essential downsized 6.5x55 Swede cartridges. Comparing them to each other is like comparing the 30-06 to the .308. And yes I know there are dimensional differences in the cases, unlike the .308 being a shortened '06 case. Most of the difference between the Swede and the newer cartridges is the SAAMI specs for the Swede are slightly lower. And I think the reason behind this is the plethora of 100 year old rifles still out there doing its job and using 100 year old metallurgy.

The Difference between the 6.5C and .260 is the ability of the 6.5C to be loaded with heavier bullets without disrupting the powder column. Loading the same bullet in the .260 would have the base of the bullet sit in the powder column and would affect performance.
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Old December 05, 2019, 22:54   #39
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The Difference between the 6.5C and .260 is the ability of the 6.5C to be loaded with heavier bullets without disrupting the powder column. Loading the same bullet in the .260 would have the base of the bullet sit in the powder column and would affect performance.
Only if limiting yourself to 308 mag length.
People shooting long distance seem to have no issue single loading long heavy bullets in PITA to single load AR's,,,why would it all of a sudden be an issue in a bolt gun,,,
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Old December 05, 2019, 23:18   #40
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The 6.5 Creedmore and .260 Remington are essential downsized 6.5x55 Swede cartridges. Comparing them to each other is like comparing the 30-06 to the .308. And yes I know there are dimensional differences in the cases, unlike the .308 being a shortened '06 case. Most of the difference between the Swede and the newer cartridges is the SAAMI specs for the Swede are slightly lower. And I think the reason behind this is the plethora of 100 year old rifles still out there doing its job and using 100 year old metallurgy.

The Difference between the 6.5C and .260 is the ability of the 6.5C to be loaded with heavier bullets without disrupting the powder column. Loading the same bullet in the .260 would have the base of the bullet sit in the powder column and would affect performance.
Also keep in mind that older 6.5x55mm cartridge cases are somewhat more lightly constructed (head not as thick) than more current cases designed for higher pressures (like the .260 Rem and the 6.5CM are). With the correct cases and loaded to the same pressure, the 6.5x55mm beats both of the others in terms of velocity with like weight bullets.

But, like the .30-06 and the .308 Win., the difference is not enough to really worry about for most people. I continue with the 6.5x55mm just because I really like it (although also recognizing that it's also quite a performer (both in terms of flight ballistics and terminal ballistics)).

I would certainly not turn down a nice .260 Rem or 6.5CM if someone wanted to buy one for me...

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Old December 06, 2019, 11:24   #41
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Whether realized or not by the majority here there are physics reason the 6.5 is superior to a lot of other cartridges mentioned. The short-fat case and more severe shoulder angle create better (read "more consistent") powder burns, and the projos are centered better in the chamber for more perfect alignment to the rifling. It's not new, the .308 had this more than the 30-06, and the more extreme versions are the WSMs and WSSMs.

My longest-range rifle is a bolt .270 WSM, which will do anything the CM will plus, and is the reason I don't personally need a CM. The only "inferiority" of the WSM to the CM is in best bullet BCs, where the WSM 150s run right at .5 BC, and the CMs are .625. Speed overcomes a lot though, and a 150 leaving the barrel 400+fps faster than the CM means less flight time, more energy, and at least longer range. I know my rifle is limited by me and not its capabilities, as when I do my part I can shoot clover leaves all day, and 5 shot groups I can lay a nickel over.

Because I don't compete though I doubt I'll even know what I can do at 1K yds or better, but were I needing to take out a Zombiecrat at 1200+ I do know the round is still carrying the energy to do so, and still more so than the CM; the BC of the CM doesn't catch the WSM for energy until 1700 yards out, where they are both at 300 ft/lbs. That is why I have no personal need for it. Now, were I looking for a long-range round because I didn't have a .308 and the WSM, the CM is a fine choice for between the 2, but I've got it covered, and then some.
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Old December 06, 2019, 12:32   #42
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In answer to Brother Byron's question: 'cuz bolt guns are inherently more accurate?

Honestly, this thread ain't done nuthin' 'til Brothers hueyville and Art have added their explanations.

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Old December 06, 2019, 13:39   #43
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Speed overcomes a lot though, and a 150 leaving the barrel 400+fps faster than the CM means less flight time, more energy, and at least longer range.
I know I said I wouldn't get into it earlier, but your statement piqued my interest... 400+fps faster? We're pushing 2930 fps w/6.5 CM ELD-X.
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Old December 06, 2019, 16:33   #44
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So is the load data only up to 46K PSI? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5%C3%9755mm_Swedish claims even SAAMI puts it a bit higher.
Much or even most load data for the 6.5x55 was developed in '96 Swedish Mauser actions even as recently as Lyman's #50 manual to my disappointment.

There are sources , (Norma and Vihtavuori) that list 50K PSI loads for "modern" actions and warn not to use the data in Krags, 1896 Mauser, and such. European loads are hotter than those loaded by US ammo companies. Pretty sure corporate lawyers have a hand in it.

I have accumulated lots of load data to perk the Old Swede up a bit, but it took some research time to come up with. I'm not up on all the latest Loading Manuals to be sure.
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Old December 08, 2019, 17:17   #45
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Comparison of 140 gr 6.5 Creedmor to 168 gr .308 fired out of a 22 to 24 in barrel. 6.5 does have some slight ballistic advantage, but at the cost of a lighter bullet and a caliber that is not to likely to be found in the hands of friendly troops when the dreck hits the rotating blades.
None of which matters to the target shooter, which is whom the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed for.
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Old December 09, 2019, 07:03   #46
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None of which matters to the target shooter, which is whom the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed for.
Which is exactly why I went for it, back when it wasn’t popular.

I was and still am surrounded by surplus military battle rifles, the most accurate of which is an old 7mm Mauser.

I built mine. With all the neat, trendy crap that goes with it, and am super happy with the results. The entire reason for the exercise was to achieve 300WM ballistics at 1200 yds without busting up my shoulder, and in that respect it succeeded incredibly well.

Would I do it again? No, I’d spend half the money, buy a Savage and spend the saved money on quality glass.

But as of right now, with the exception of my old Mauser which with work could become something really special, the 6.5CM is the only rifle I own that’s capable of user friendly long range shooting.
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