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Old December 05, 2019, 11:38   #1
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M1 trigger guard latching question

I bought a new Dupage stock for my Garand. The trigger guard is now really hard to get latched. I can get the tip if the guard to within maybe 3/8 to 1/2" from closing with a lot of pressure. I've been doing a bit of internet research and find a lot of threads around where this is discussed. Some have claimed that if you can get the tip of the TG at least to the tip of the trigger, it can be latched by using a rubber mallet to beat it closed. Yeah, I saw the pics of armorers doing just that to brand new M1s.

I've carefully checked and don't see any area of the stock inlet that is bearing on the TG. The recess inlet for the tang of the TG in much deeper on the GI stock I replaced, but I read frequent warnings to not relieve this area because of the compressibility of the wood. It would be loose within months if so relieved some say. So, is it really okay to lay the rifle upside down on a carpeted floor and use a mallet? That seems like an easy way to break something but maybe not? Any suggestions or advice would be really appreciated. Thanks!
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Old December 05, 2019, 11:43   #2
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Originally Posted by Texgunner View Post
I bought a new Dupage stock for my Garand. The trigger guard is now really hard to get latched. I can get the tip if the guard to within maybe 3/8 to 1/2" from closing with a lot of pressure. I've been doing a bit of internet research and find a lot of threads around where this is discussed. Some have claimed that if you can get the tip of the TG at least to the tip of the trigger, it can be latched by using a rubber mallet to beat it closed. Yeah, I saw the pics of armorers doing just that to brand new M1s.

I've carefully checked and don't see any area of the stock inlet that is bearing on the TG. The recess inlet for the tang of the TG in much deeper on the GI stock I replaced, but I read frequent warnings to not relieve this area because of the compressibility of the wood. It would be loose within months if so relieved some say. So, is it really okay to lay the rifle upside down on a carpeted floor and use a mallet? That seems like an easy way to break something but maybe not? Any suggestions or advice would be really appreciated. Thanks!
I did one like that before, used a LOT of grease on the locking lugs and receiver and got her done.

Eli
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Old December 05, 2019, 11:52   #3
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Originally Posted by AliYahu View Post
I did one like that before, used a LOT of grease on the locking lugs and receiver and got her done.

Eli
Eli, I had read a tip about greasing those, thanks for mentioning that. Did you need to use a mallet? I've considered if it's that hard to latch, will it be equally hard to unlatch.
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Old December 05, 2019, 14:29   #4
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Incorrect inletting at the tang cut is common with aftermarket stocks, and should be corrected.

If not, it can cause doubling due to flexing of the trigger housing.



...............................

"E. The distance from the top of the stock to the small bedding surfaces for the rear of the trigger housing is too large. On BOTH the M1Garand and M14 stocks, the correct distance is 1.725” or slightly less. They may wear down to just over 1.700.” You can check this distance using good dial calipers and measuring from inside the stock. This distance is critical so the bolt will force the hammer down far enough for the trigger assembly to reset correctly. If the distance is too great, the bolt can’t force the hammer down low enough for the trigger assembly to reset.

Back in the early 2,000’s – there was a huge problem with this when people were using Boyd’s commercial stocks for M1 Garands. The stocks were making rifles double or triple all over the country. Well, the reason was the distance between the top of the stock and the two bedding surfaces for the rear of the trigger housing on those stocks ran 1.735 – 1.750” or even slightly larger. The ones where the distance was close to 1.750” were the ones most often doubling, though even some of the stocks with the 1.735” distance did it. The cure was to pare or cut the two small surfaces a bit higher in the stock until the distance was back in spec. I have also seen this with some commercial M14 wood stocks as well. "

https://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/1070...1-s-m14-s.html


.....................

ETA: Verify the distance from the top rail of the stock to the contact points on the housing flange by comparing to a known correct dimension stock.

........................
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Old December 05, 2019, 19:44   #5
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Thanks for that info Terry. I just measured from the top of the stock (flat surface) down to the bedding surface for TG tang. Using my Chinese caliper from Midway and a 6" machinist rule, I measure 1 45/64" which converts to 1.703". The old GI stock that in came in from CMP actually measures just a hair under that. If my measurements are close to correct, that Dupage stock should fit as is, right? Mallet time?
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Old December 05, 2019, 19:50   #6
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Originally Posted by Texgunner View Post
Using my Chinese caliper from Midway and a 6" machinist rule, I measure 1 45/64" which converts to 1.703".
You can actually see the gradations of 64ths without magnification on a scale? I'd probably get lucky to come up with 44-46.
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Old December 05, 2019, 20:02   #7
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You can actually see the gradations of 64ths without magnification on a scale? I'd probably get lucky to come up with 44-46.
Picked up my new reading glasses today. Hey, I can see like I could in high school with those!
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Old December 05, 2019, 20:30   #8
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Originally Posted by Texgunner View Post
Mallet time?
Never.


Only an Army hack or a Butter Bar Marine would resort to a mallet instead of fitting it properly.

When you attempt to close the trigger guard, there should be an obvious marring of the interference point.

Use Dykem ( or a sharpie ) on the contact areas of the trigger housing and see what it tells you.


.......................
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Old December 05, 2019, 20:43   #9
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I can't believe that pounding on that TG with a mallet could be good for anything, but still people insist on recommending that. I would sure rather not have to resort to that. I bought one of the Dupage stocks that are stained, with metal parts attached. I wanted to be sure it fit before the final finish but was afraid of messing it up while fitting. So I did put on a coat of tung oil cut 1/2 with mineral spirits, inside and out. The outside will be buffed off with OOOO wool to remove the tung oil and then a handrubbed finish of 1/3 beeswax, 1/3 BLO and 1/3 turpentine will be applied after final fitting.

I will have the receiver back in the new stock first part of next week and will mark the trigger housing as suggested before trying it. The receiver is damned tight going into the new stock and has to be tapped out to remove. I guess that's a good thing. It just fell into the old GI stock and even had a bit of fore and aft play.
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Old December 05, 2019, 21:26   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texgunner View Post
I can't believe that pounding on that TG with a mallet could be good for anything, but still people insist on recommending that.
Hammers are great tools for many, many purposes. So are dremels, duct tape, JB Weld, baling wire, and long handled pipe wrenches. They can fix a lot of things. I've seen me do it !

I would suggest however on your M1, you might follow Terry's lead here.....
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Old December 05, 2019, 21:35   #11
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Hammers are great tools for many, many purposes. So are dremels, duct tape, JB Weld, baling wire, and long handled pipe wrenches. They can fix a lot of things. I've seen me do it !

I would suggest however on your M1, you might follow Terry's lead here.....
As indeed I will.

"Sir, please lay the mallet on the ground and step away!"
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Old December 05, 2019, 22:08   #12
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Note areas 4 and 5.



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Old December 05, 2019, 22:37   #13
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Terry, I had found that picture during my search. I would think area 4 could be interfering, but as I move the triggerguard to close it, I can see with a flashlight that no part of that touches those angled clearance cuts. Yet, it does feel as though something is keeping it from closing. Area 5 doesn't seem to be making contact with the trigger housing.

Dupage's website says this:

FITTING
The Dupage stock is manufactured to be as close as a drop in replacement stock as possible for all M1 Garand rifles. Little to no fitting is required for proper rifle function and MIL-SPEC accuracy. Initially, you may experience difficulty locking the trigger guard during reassembly. This is not a defect, a tight lock up is conducive to good accuracy. When installing our stock the first few times, you may need to use a rubber/nylon mallet to close the trigger guard…no different than the original armorers did at Springfield Armory when the rifle was first manufactured.


I haven't gotten to the hand guards yet to see if any fitting is needed there. I will check to make sure the barrel isn't touching the barrel channel in the rear handguard. But, I think Dupage has done a pretty good job with the inletting and dimensions.

When I next try the trigger housing in the new stock, I will mark the contact points as you suggested and see what that shows. I will grease those locking lugs and the receiver as Eli mentioned above next time I try to close that TG. And I'll place her upside down on a carpeted floor and really lean on that trigger guard. The walnut stock has some very attractive tiger-striping and grain and I'm excited about getting it finished and installed. That hand-rubbed paste really makes a great finish and this one should look great.
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Old December 05, 2019, 22:49   #14
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"MIL-SPEC accuracy "


Good thing it ain't Double Mil Spec, or you'd never get the trigger housing inserted !



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Old December 05, 2019, 22:53   #15
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Lol. Double accuracy...that sounds pretty good. I just want to be able to open and close the damned thing. And not get put on Double Secret Probation!
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Old December 05, 2019, 23:37   #16
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It should close by a hard push with heel of your hand.

If you have to use a tool to open it, that is Okay.



.......................
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Old December 06, 2019, 00:25   #17
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https://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/1070...1-s-m14-s.html

https://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/1334...h-tension.html

https://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/1103...rs-stocks.html

https://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/1367...upage-cmp.html
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Old December 06, 2019, 00:49   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdb59 View Post
Incorrect inletting at the tang cut is common with aftermarket stocks, and should be corrected.

If not, it can cause doubling due to flexing of the trigger housing.



...............................

"E. The distance from the top of the stock to the small bedding surfaces for the rear of the trigger housing is too large. On BOTH the M1Garand and M14 stocks, the correct distance is 1.725” or slightly less. They may wear down to just over 1.700.” You can check this distance using good dial calipers and measuring from inside the stock. This distance is critical so the bolt will force the hammer down far enough for the trigger assembly to reset correctly. If the distance is too great, the bolt can’t force the hammer down low enough for the trigger assembly to reset.

Back in the early 2,000’s – there was a huge problem with this when people were using Boyd’s commercial stocks for M1 Garands. The stocks were making rifles double or triple all over the country. Well, the reason was the distance between the top of the stock and the two bedding surfaces for the rear of the trigger housing on those stocks ran 1.735 – 1.750” or even slightly larger. The ones where the distance was close to 1.750” were the ones most often doubling, though even some of the stocks with the 1.735” distance did it. The cure was to pare or cut the two small surfaces a bit higher in the stock until the distance was back in spec. I have also seen this with some commercial M14 wood stocks as well. "

https://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/1070...1-s-m14-s.html


.....................

ETA: Verify the distance from the top rail of the stock to the contact points on the housing flange by comparing to a known correct dimension stock.

........................
Interesting. Bought a SG SA Garand from the CMP back in 2000. The stock
was greasy, black, well worn wood. The top handguard was blonde and
front handguard was good. So I replaced it with a Boyd's complete set.
My trigger guard was tight and I had to use a screwdriver shaft to lift it
off the stock. Eventually, the trigger guard was worked in. Never had a
double or triple fire. But the lockup was tight.

Old_Spambo
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Old December 06, 2019, 09:05   #19
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Thanks for those links TerryN, very informative!
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Old December 07, 2019, 11:43   #20
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I remember many,many years ago i had a Air Force "AFPG" national match Garand. It was so tight that required a tool to get trigger guard open and i thought all was well and it would lock up with enough pressure. I can't remember spacing but though at the time thats sure a lot to overcome so i really forced it and "pop" one of the ears on the receiver cracked. I had ruined my AFPG with nothing left but to heliarc up the crack and refinish that portion of the receiver. I can remember it was the old brown Accuraglas that it was bedded with.
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Old December 07, 2019, 13:48   #21
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I remember many,many years ago i had a Air Force "AFPG" national match Garand. It was so tight that required a tool to get trigger guard open and i thought all was well and it would lock up with enough pressure. I can't remember spacing but though at the time thats sure a lot to overcome so i really forced it and "pop" one of the ears on the receiver cracked. I had ruined my AFPG with nothing left but to heliarc up the crack and refinish that portion of the receiver. I can remember it was the old brown Accuraglas that it was bedded with.
Ouch. Damn, that is definitely what I want to avoid...that's scary!
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Old December 07, 2019, 20:08   #22
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Originally Posted by tdb59 View Post
Never.


Only an Army hack or a Butter Bar Marine would resort to a mallet instead of fitting it properly.

When you attempt to close the trigger guard, there should be an obvious marring of the interference point.

Use Dykem ( or a sharpie ) on the contact areas of the trigger housing and see what it tells you.


.......................
I guess Springfield Armory did it wrong all those years......Darn hacks
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Old December 07, 2019, 20:12   #23
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I've seen that pic too. Was the mallet used just as a time saving method? Considering the number of rifles being produced, was it that they could not spend more time hand-fitting the stocks?
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Old December 07, 2019, 20:17   #24
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http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads...ticle20121.pdf
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Old December 07, 2019, 20:20   #25
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From one of the links posted by TerryN, from the M14 forum, by Gus Fisher:

Now this next one may throw you all for a loop, but now is the time to do this. Take the barreled receiver out of the stock and put it upside down on your bench. Take a Q Tip dipped in grease and grease the bottom of the receiver heel from the rear of both rear receiver legs going rearward, but stop about 1 1/8" from the rear of the receiver heel. We WANT the last or rear 1 1/8" of the receiver heel to contact the top of the stock!! The receiver heel must NOT touch the top of the stock where these greased areas can/will rub on the top of the stock for two reasons and they are:

1. This allows the TG to tighten down the receiver so only the rear of heel and the front of the receiver are pulled down on the stock. This actually SLIGHTLY bends the receiver so little you can't see it, but keeps the rear of the heel of the stock from twisting too much and not coming back to the same position.

2. (This one you may not believe, but allow me to explain. Grin.) GI stocks were ALWAYS made so there is at least light between the top of the stock and this area under the receiver heel for reason Number 1. and for this reason. There does not have to be MUCH clearance, but it needs to be there for another far lesser known reason. IF the bottom of the receiver heel hits hard or binds on the top of the stock in this area, it CAN and WILL cause functioning problems. Though not always, it often shows up as a "7th Round Stoppage." OK, OK, I KNOW the classic of a "7th Round Stoppage" was caused by them reaming out the front end of the receiver too much, BUT PLEASE BELIEVE ME the heel bearing hard in this area will ALSO do it. Can't even count the number of times people have brought commercial stocks to me that caused such problems and all I had to do was clearance this area under the receiver heel by filing it.

Keep some grease on this area of the receiver heel as you tighten the TG because sometimes it does not contact the top of the stock until you get close to the TG closing OR the TG actually does close. I use a file and sandpaper wrapped around a file to take the wood off so you don't cut too much wood off as you are fitting the TG. When you do get the TG to close correctly, you check a final time to see the heel is not contacting in this area and file/sand the stock if it does.


The Dupage stock that I bought is already stained. Man, I sure hope the clearance discussed here is present on my stock when I am able to close the TH. I had really hoped (and assumed...yeah, I know.) that there would be no need for any fitting on the stock where it might be seen. If I have to relieve that area, I'll need to carefully match the stain. Wonder if Dupage would be willing to sell some of the stain they used, or refer me to where they got it?
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Old December 07, 2019, 20:40   #26
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Thanks HankC!

I'm more than a little confused now, lol. In post 4, the distance from the top of the stock to the small bedding area for the rear of the trigger housing is given as 1.725 or slightly less. My stock is close to that now.

In this diagram from the pdf. posted by HankC, it appears that the distance is much less. 1.645-1.675. Am I reading this diagram correctly?

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Old December 07, 2019, 20:42   #27
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Has anyone ever had a unissued USGI stock and a NOS trigger guard? I have and this is how tight they fit. Everyone is used to worn out compressed wood with worn lugs on trigger guard that snap closed. This is not the proper fit.
Here is how I prefer a trigger guard to fit. It dead stops this far from closing


It must be forced closed the rest of the way. This is the proper fit of a stock

If you start removing wood you will be sorry. Wood compresses with age, it doesn't take long. As the wood compresses , lock up will decrease and so will accuracy.
If you are afraid of closing the trigger guard get a guard with worn lugs so it will easily close. As the wood compresses and lock up gets less you can then install a guard with good round lugs
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Old December 07, 2019, 20:49   #28
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Another way is to man up and close the darn thing. Run the aperture all the way down, flip the rifle over on padded table or carpet and lean on the trigger guard
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Old December 08, 2019, 07:19   #29
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This question comes up multiple times a month on CMP forum. Someone will buy a CMP Special grade (has new DuPage /Boyds stock) They tear rifle down to inspect and grease and can not get the guard to close. Well guess what, it was closed when they received it from CMP it will close again.
After telling them to use a mallet or man up and lean on it they always close with no damage
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Old December 12, 2019, 13:45   #30
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I have a bit of an update: I did get the trigger guard to latch. I'd like to leave it latched for a while to sort of "set" into the rear bedding area (no wood removed there!). I would like to move on to fitting the hand guards now and my next dumb question is can I remove the gas cylinder with the op-rod in place? When I peened the splines years ago, the rifle was completely disassembled. I'd like to not have to remove the trigger housing now to disassemble and remove the op-rod but is it possible to remove the GS like that? Thanks for any help!
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Old December 12, 2019, 14:00   #31
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Old December 12, 2019, 16:02   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texgunner View Post
I have a bit of an update: I did get the trigger guard to latch. I'd like to leave it latched for a while to sort of "set" into the rear bedding area (no wood removed there!). !
You did the right thing, as time goes on the wood will compress some making it easy to latch
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Old December 12, 2019, 18:59   #33
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Quote:
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Thanks for that pic brother! That does help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando8 View Post
You did the right thing, as time goes on the wood will compress some making it easy to latch
Good, I was hoping that was a good idea. I may begin work on the hand guards tomorrow now that it looks like that's doable with the op-rod in place.
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