The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapons Discussion > Ammunition

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 25, 2020, 06:41   #1
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
Warning. Least desireable ammo to purchase. Opinion

Picked this crap up from CMP a few years ago and added a few cans to the stash. After hearing some folks had bad results, I set it aside.
Well, yesterday my concerns were justified. Shot 100 rnds though a few different rifles. 90% or more developed neck splits and a few cartridges didn't even have primers in the empty pockets. At 100 yds there was a variation in 7 inches vertically. Absolute worse junk I have ever used. Made the old Egyptian garbage seem like GMM.



__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 06:48   #2
TenTea
Registered
Contributor
 
TenTea's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 72247
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wisco
Posts: 5,769
Man, that's ugly.

Well, you've got the Noslers…

Could the brass be annealed after pulldown?

It would be dicey to give the ammo away as a gift, even.
Did you fire any in bolt guns?
__________________
The trick is in what one emphasizes.
We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy.
The amount of work is the same.


Carlos Castenada
TenTea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 08:14   #3
starbuck
Registered
 
starbuck's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 26466
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OHIO
Posts: 1,142
Its easy to get burned in the gun world. You would think that buying from the CMP would mean something but apparently not. I've been burned by Sig, and PTR. I thought I was buying the best but it turns out Sig doesn't know how to make sights and the model I bought has a different cut than all their others so fixing it will be a pain, I thought I was just a bad shot but looking online the sights are junk and not even adjustable to work. Then I thought I was buying the best PTR you could buy, turns out they did a shit job with the chamber and now it can't shoot surplus because its too dirty and gums up the chamber.
__________________
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught.
starbuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 08:58   #4
yovinny
Old Fart
Platinum Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wastelands of Western Kentucky
Posts: 6,657
That sucks...
Is the brass LC 2013 by chance ?
yovinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 10:17   #5
ftierson
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 13827
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 16,932
But, but, it's match grade...

Forrest
ftierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 10:27   #6
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
After a little thought, very little, there are 800+ rnds on the way to the collet puller. Soon to become re-loading components minus the brass and primers.

Just pulled down 100 rnds and the reason for inaccuracy is quite evident. Not sure what the power is but load varied almost 4 gr, from 37.9 to 41.8 with the majority around 41.4.
__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68

Last edited by ArtBanks; February 25, 2020 at 11:10.
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 11:36   #7
jjjxlr8
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 34903
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 414
I've seen failed brass from enough "commercial reloaders" to know to stay away from it. The only reloads I use, today, are my own. Most of these companies tend to use supposedly once fired brass from military or police ranges but they must not have good processes in place to check the quality of the brass they start with.
jjjxlr8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 11:40   #8
Tip_drill
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 82930
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: firearm collector, Mesa Arizona USA
Posts: 646
Art, this thread reminded me of an incident I had with the M14 I carried.. was shooting it at a makeshift range and had a case split on me... I had never experienced this before but it blew the floor plate , spring, follower and remaining rounds out of the magazine... and left me black faced like gov Northam

The rifle was fine, the magazine floor plate had the tab broken off however and M14 magazines were in short supply so I fixed it with 100 mph tape
Tip_drill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 12:54   #9
meltblown
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 34604
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SA Tx
Posts: 16,858
I shot a 800 count or so of LC reloads I made up a few years ago. The cases split like yours. I have yet to figure out why. LC with 748 and a m80 on top. I'm starting to think that as the brass ages in the can, it gets brittle since it's not been annealed again. I also wonder if the powder helps make it brittle or is it a batch of LC that is prone to this?
__________________
If you're looking for someone loyal, get a dog. Otherwise you're not going to find it.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.
meltblown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 13:38   #10
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltblown View Post
I shot a 800 count or so of LC reloads I made up a few years ago. The cases split like yours. I have yet to figure out why. LC with 748 and a m80 on top. I'm starting to think that as the brass ages in the can, it gets brittle since it's not been annealed again. I also wonder if the powder helps make it brittle or is it a batch of LC that is prone to this?
If you bought the brass as " once fired" it was probably fired in a machine gun with a hugemungus chamber. Kinda like the used car that the little old lady only drove to church on Sundays till ya find the drag weights bolted to the underside.
__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 14:11   #11
ftierson
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 13827
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 16,932
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtBanks View Post
If you bought the brass as " once fired" it was probably fired in a machine gun with a hugemungus chamber. Kinda like the used car that the little old lady only drove to church on Sundays till ya find the drag weights bolted to the underside.
While possible (usually just affects reloading case life because of excessive stretching), I'd sooner guess just poor annealing...

Forrest
ftierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 14:55   #12
ammolab
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 10923
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,351
Tie for “worst”:
Indian 1980ish - 2000 mfg 7.62x51 surplus
French 1950s 30-06 FMJ surplus
Israeli 7.62x51 1980 mfg FMJ surplus
ammolab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 19:33   #13
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
Hornady puller does a nice clean job for my purposes.





__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 19:48   #14
meltblown
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 34604
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SA Tx
Posts: 16,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtBanks View Post
If you bought the brass as " once fired" it was probably fired in a machine gun with a hugemungus chamber. Kinda like the used car that the little old lady only drove to church on Sundays till ya find the drag weights bolted to the underside.
You're probably right Art. The FALs were ok with it. I was ok too with not feeling the need in picking up any of the brass. It was nasty but shot decent. I've gone to 1 reload in an FAL with any milsurp brass these days
__________________
If you're looking for someone loyal, get a dog. Otherwise you're not going to find it.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.
meltblown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 19:53   #15
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 41,387
I sometimes worry what might become of my deadlined brass I sell to the recycler.

Hoping it doesn't end up in the hands of some unscrupulous "cheap reloads" company.

If there were an easy way to mangle it beyond any possibility of re-use, and still qualify for "cartridge brass" salvage prices, I would.

That neck-split, primer-puking, brass was probably cleaned in an ammonia bath of some sort.
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 20:17   #16
ftierson
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 13827
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 16,932
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
I sometimes worry what might become of my deadlined brass I sell to the recycler.

Hoping it doesn't end up in the hands of some unscrupulous "cheap reloads" company.

If there were an easy way to mangle it beyond any possibility of re-use, and still qualify for "cartridge brass" salvage prices, I would.

That neck-split, primer-puking, brass was probably cleaned in an ammonia bath of some sort.
That would be my first guess...

Forrest
ftierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2020, 22:29   #17
Arby
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 653
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 5,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtBanks View Post
Hornady puller does a nice clean job for my purposes.





Wow! Nice rig, Art! I wish I had access to something like that when I had to pull down a lot of bad French '06.
Arby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 10:59   #18
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
Worked on breaking down 600 rnds of this junk today. Great way to spend a couple of hours.





Separated out a few of the different head stamps.

__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 11:18   #19
TenTea
Registered
Contributor
 
TenTea's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 72247
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wisco
Posts: 5,769
How can that motley crew of brass be used in anything billed as *match*?

Interesting array hailing from what, a range of 6 decades...
__________________
The trick is in what one emphasizes.
We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy.
The amount of work is the same.


Carlos Castenada
TenTea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 11:51   #20
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTea View Post
How can that motley crew of brass be used in anything billed as *match*?

Interesting array hailing from what, a range of 6 decades...

Amazing isn't it. They didn't say what kind of match.
I didn't even think of different headstamps till I was 3/4 done. So no telling what other stuff is in there. I was surprised to see the WRA 68.
__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 11:58   #21
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 41,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtBanks View Post
They didn't say what kind of match.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg perfect match couple.jpg (122.5 KB, 27 views)
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 12:26   #22
ftierson
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 13827
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 16,932
Just out of curiosity, did you weigh any of the powder charges?

Any idea on the powder (recognizing the problems of identification by look)?

I tried pulling up a better image of the powder in the plastic 'tub', but that required me to unblock my adblocker (and I don't think so)...

Forrest
ftierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 12:29   #23
TenTea
Registered
Contributor
 
TenTea's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 72247
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wisco
Posts: 5,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
A real freak show around these parts...
__________________
The trick is in what one emphasizes.
We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy.
The amount of work is the same.


Carlos Castenada
TenTea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 12:49   #24
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftierson View Post
Just out of curiosity, did you weigh any of the powder charges?

Any idea on the powder (recognizing the problems of identification by look)?

I tried pulling up a better image of the powder in the plastic 'tub', but that required me to unblock my adblocker (and I don't think so)...

Forrest
Yes, the weight was all over the place from 37.9 to 41.8. Most right around 41.4 but so inconsistent it would be useless for any match shooting.

I believe that Varget was used. In side by side comparison with a dozen different types, that is the closest visual.
__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 14:28   #25
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 41,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtBanks View Post
I believe that Varget was used. In side by side comparison with a dozen different types, that is the closest visual.
Varget?

You mighta hit the jackpot then. That stuff is UNOBTAINIUM these days.

I'm down to using TAC at this point if I want to build ammo.
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 15:03   #26
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Varget?

You mighta hit the jackpot then. That stuff is UNOBTAINIUM these days.

I'm down to using TAC at this point if I want to build ammo.
Varget is my primary powder. I usually pick up 2 8lbs at Camp Perry during the Summer games. Been lucky so far. I was down to 1/2 of my last 8lb and found a few 1lb cans at my lgs a couple of weeks ago so I should be set till summer.
__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 15:55   #27
Texgunner
long-time Texas taxpayer
Silver Contributor
 
Texgunner's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 4653
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Brokenoak in central Texas-Milam county
Posts: 9,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
The Spratts?
__________________
"The rock of democracy will founder when people think of people unlike themselves as the "other"-Teddy Roosevelt

My daddy was a cowboy in his younger days, wild as the west Texas wind. He once told me, "Son, death is a horse you got to ride. So you better get your saddle ready."-Mick "Pappy" Connors

Know your rights; the future is unwritten.
Texgunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 16:05   #28
meltblown
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 34604
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SA Tx
Posts: 16,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Varget?

That stuff is UNOBTAINIUM these days.

.
Again? Damn, I'm sitting on 24 lbs of Varget and will just use 748. You don't like RL15?
__________________
If you're looking for someone loyal, get a dog. Otherwise you're not going to find it.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.
meltblown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 18:59   #29
MACV
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1167
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: St Louis County
Posts: 3,511
Did you contact Atomic Ammo Co? I would, and show them the pics.
__________________
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." The Duke
MACV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26, 2020, 19:20   #30
ArtBanks
Veteran Member
Platinum Contributor
 
ArtBanks's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 28761
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Preston, CT
Posts: 1,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACV View Post
Did you contact Atomic Ammo Co? I would, and show them the pics.

Many did and the response was that poor rifles were responsible for the troubles.
Personally , I have just put them on my shit list forever.
__________________
Semper Fi
Art
Sgt. USMC 66-72
RVN 67-68
ArtBanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2020, 20:12   #31
BarnOwlLover
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 81552
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 500
Barn Owl Ammunition (parody of Barnaul Cartridge Plant, who it seems usually makes good ammo): made from the finest owl pellets and bird shit. Sadly, ammo made from owl pellets and dried bird shit may be better than what you ended up with. Who the hell in their right mind would call that horseshit match grade ammo?

Probably makes the shittiest batch of M80 ball look like you shot a laser, and probably safer and stands more of a chance of going boom when you want to, too.

Younger brother used to shoot some bullshit 9mm Luger ammo that came from Iraq after the US/Coalition invasion that got rid of Insane Hussein. Shot most of it out if his Sig 938, and maybe some out of a Ruger P85. It was cheap, and my father wanted the shell casings for hand loading. And the stuff my old man makes out of 9mm makes some .357 Magnum stuff look pudloaded.
BarnOwlLover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28, 2020, 07:01   #32
KaBoom
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17252
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mid-Coast USA
Posts: 168
I seem to remember reading "once fired brass" just means it is not "new" brass. It might have been fired once or dozens of times.
__________________
DSA SA-58 FAL
DSA DS-AR M4
Daewoo K-2/AR-100 pre-ban
Daewoo DR-200 x2
Dragunot rat sapper
Ruger 10/22
Remington 597
SA 1911-A1
SA XD-9 Service OD
SA XD-9 SC Two-Tone
SA XD-9 SC Black
H&K USP Custom Combat 40S&W Tan
RA XCR 18 HBAR
CZ-75 SP01 Tactical
Uzi
Remington 870 Marine Magnum
AK-47
Sterling MK.6
KaBoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28, 2020, 09:13   #33
Texgunner
long-time Texas taxpayer
Silver Contributor
 
Texgunner's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 4653
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Brokenoak in central Texas-Milam county
Posts: 9,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaBoom View Post
I seem to remember reading "once fired brass" just means it is not "new" brass. It might have been fired once or dozens of times.
In the '80s I lived across the street from a gunsmith and hand-loaded pistol (.38 Spl. and .357 Mag) ammunition on his equipment under his tutelage. Gene Salach was very meticulous in the loading operation and also in record-keeping for the rounds. I started with either new brass or some that he had only fired once.

Every box loaded was labeled with the date, powder type and charge, bullet info and number of times it had been "fired". Once fired meant just that for Gene. He developed a load for the .38 spl that used a wad-cutter bullet that was quite mild and extremely accurate in my Salach-tuned S&W 686. Now, the full-house magnum loads were very different with 125 gr JHPs that were pretty hot. I found a couple boxes of those magnum rounds not too long ago that I had forgotten about. I'm going to try some of those this spring.
__________________
"The rock of democracy will founder when people think of people unlike themselves as the "other"-Teddy Roosevelt

My daddy was a cowboy in his younger days, wild as the west Texas wind. He once told me, "Son, death is a horse you got to ride. So you better get your saddle ready."-Mick "Pappy" Connors

Know your rights; the future is unwritten.
Texgunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2019 The FAL Files