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Old September 10, 2019, 21:54   #1
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welding damaged barrel shoulder

As you might recall, some lowlife piece-of-shit (Louis) sold this barrel in marketplace without disclosing the extent of the damage. I took the barrel in trade for some other work.

I'm no master at TIG welding, but I'm getting better.

Still needs a .012" shim, but I can complete another G1 kit (with full disclosure, including this pic). And the barrel was VG+ (AKA, did not go to Turkey), so worth the work.


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Old September 10, 2019, 22:14   #2
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Nice, I'll take it.
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Old September 10, 2019, 22:14   #3
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Old September 10, 2019, 22:18   #4
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Nice save. Just curious, are the center pics after Parkerizing? Was wondering if the mottled appearance was from heat zones similar to heat treat lines on a parked FAL trigger housing.
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Old September 10, 2019, 22:24   #5
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....And the legend of Uncle Louis lives lives on....

Nice work Mr. Graham.
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Old September 10, 2019, 22:59   #6
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Nice save. Just curious, are the center pics after Parkerizing? Was wondering if the mottled appearance was from heat zones similar to heat treat lines on a parked FAL trigger housing.
No, it's because one of the welding rods I used was ER308 (stainless) instead of the ER70S (carbon steel) that I thought I was using.

Not a problem, but it can't be undone. I generally use the stainless for weld repairing hardened pieces, such as heat treated 4130 or 4140, as carbon migrates to the heat and can fracture if too hard at the joint. You will note two piece FN bolt carriers such on the M249 and and the FNC have the two parts welded with stainless.

I don't profess to be a master welder, but I do note when manufacturers choose stainless, so I copy them. I also have an example of a factory weld repair on the bridge over the chamber on an IMBEL - welded in stainless.

These two types have served me well for most jobs. It's also the reason I opted for the later black finish instead of Park.

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.c...kit-g1-mostly/
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Old September 10, 2019, 23:04   #7
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Well done sir!!!
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Old September 10, 2019, 23:56   #8
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No, it's because one of the welding rods I used was ER308 (stainless) instead of the ER70S (carbon steel) that I thought I was using.

Not a problem, but it can't be undone. I generally use the stainless for weld repairing hardened pieces, such as heat treated 4130 or 4140, as carbon migrates to the heat and can fracture if too hard at the joint. You will note two piece FN bolt carriers such on the M249 and and the FNC have the two parts welded with stainless.

I don't profess to be a master welder, but I do note when manufacturers choose stainless, so I copy them. I also have an example of a factory weld repair on the bridge over the chamber on an IMBEL - welded in stainless.

These two types have served me well for most jobs. It's also the reason I opted for the later black finish instead of Park.

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.c...kit-g1-mostly/
Trust me, after 40 years of joining metal with an electric arc I still don't call myself a master welder. I've done miles of pipe, aluminum, stainless, and carbon steel. I've repaired sections on heavy equipment that were up to 4" thick and welded pipe that was only 1/16" thick.
I haven't picked up a TIG torch in nearly 5 years... You're doing well, probably take me a month of practice to get back into TIG.
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Old September 10, 2019, 23:58   #9
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It's a tomato stake.
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Old September 11, 2019, 00:20   #10
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It's a tomato stake.
Where do you get that idea? All his welding is in the thickest part of the chamber area and its mostly light cosmetic fill.
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Old September 11, 2019, 00:46   #11
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Looks like you save a butchered barrel.

Well done.
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Old September 11, 2019, 05:26   #12
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Looks amazing!
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Old September 11, 2019, 08:10   #13
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I've done the same, Mark, on many barrels over the years. As you well know, many, many of the early kits were taken apart with pipe wrenches and those all went somewhere. You saved some, I've saved some, others have saved some. In all these years, I've never seen one issue after the repair. I do note that after welding, the metal does not machine as the rest of the non-heat affected zone and carbide goes a long way here.


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Old September 11, 2019, 08:41   #14
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Does the welding soften or harden the metal?
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Old September 11, 2019, 08:49   #15
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Does the welding soften or harden the metal?

A different metal might react differently. I'd expect with an air cool that it would anneal it. But on receivers and barrels, it definitely hardens it.
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Old September 11, 2019, 09:03   #16
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Nice!
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Old September 11, 2019, 10:11   #17
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Good job saving it!
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Old September 11, 2019, 11:42   #18
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What would it cost to repair a barrel like this one????
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Old September 11, 2019, 11:42   #19
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Outstanding work.
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Old September 11, 2019, 11:46   #20
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What would it cost to repair a barrel like this one????
$125 + $20 ship

Assume you will need a shim, which I will include best guess (hand timing on a stub)
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Old September 11, 2019, 12:18   #21
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$125 + $20 ship

Assume you will need a shim, which I will include best guess (hand timing on a stub)
With all of this "stuff" drying up,,,thats a good price to insure an otherwise nice barrel is now able to be used to build a decent rifle.
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Old September 11, 2019, 12:28   #22
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What was the point of using a punch to put so many holes into the flats? Could it not come off the stub? (Not by you obviously)
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Old September 11, 2019, 13:16   #23
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I have an Argy FALO barrel....someone just hacked up the flat area....adam762 milled off the bad area and essentially made a thick spacer out of metal and silver soldered or somehow attached it to the flats....times up perfect and you can still shave it if needed....other than a small line you cant tell its a repair.....
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Old September 11, 2019, 13:46   #24
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What was the point of using a punch to put so many holes into the flats? Could it not come off the stub? (Not by you obviously)

Overtimed. It's not unusual to swage a barrel shoulder with a knurling tool to get it a little tighter but I'm talking a few thousandths of an inch. At least he didn't try to weld the barrel to the receiver (yeah, I've had those come in).
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Old September 11, 2019, 14:46   #25
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This is my next challenge. G1 barrel with lug turned off, but I can make it into a long flash hider model.

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Old September 11, 2019, 14:50   #26
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This is my next challenge. G1 barrel with lug turned off, but I can make it into a long flash hider model.

Interesting 'feed ramp'...

Forrest
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Old September 11, 2019, 15:20   #27
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This is my next challenge. G1 barrel with lug turned off, but I can make it into a long flash hider model.

I have one similar to that, except the 'ramp' is deeper.

I am very interested in the results.


................
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Old September 11, 2019, 15:42   #28
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Good Lord! This is all just a reminder that having access to tools doesnt make one smart enough to use them. Some people....
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Old September 11, 2019, 15:52   #29
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Right. Evidently terms like residual stress and hydrogen embrittlement on a vessel rated for 50,000 PSI mean nothing to some people.
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Old September 11, 2019, 15:53   #30
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I have one similar to that, except the 'ramp' is deeper.

I am very interested in the results.


................
My concern it cleaning up the weld. If I chase the chamber with a reamer, I fear the harder weld area will push the reamer to the opposite side, instead of only cutting the high spot. My .308 reamers are all pull through style. Maybe won't be an issue. But this has been in my "deal with later" pile for a couple years.
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Old September 11, 2019, 16:28   #31
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My concern it cleaning up the weld. If I chase the chamber with a reamer, I fear the harder weld area will push the reamer to the opposite side, instead of only cutting the high spot. My .308 reamers are all pull through style. Maybe won't be an issue. But this has been in my "deal with later" pile for a couple years.
Using a different filler metal can possibly alleviate that.

In the old days of building up hoods on 1911 barrels with TIG, tie wire ( the type used for tying rebar ) was easier to dress to fit, did not peen out of dimension, and would take bluing.


...............
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Old September 11, 2019, 16:50   #32
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Using a different filler metal can possibly alleviate that.

In the old days of building up hoods on 1911 barrels with TIG, tie wire ( the type used for tying rebar ) was easier to dress to fit, did not peen out of dimension, and would take bluing.


...............
Possibly a bit of preheat would help? Rapid cooling creating hard spots can be an issue with some filler rod, but ER70S-6 should be fairly neutral in that regard depending on what it picks up out of the base metal. I would think that 350-375 deg would be safe for barrel steel without any annealing action.
I have used up to 500 deg preheats on heavy equipment going by a WPS from Caterpillar welding very hard cast steel ground engaging tools.
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Old September 11, 2019, 19:11   #33
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I weld them up using ER70S-6 and it still gets hard in those spots and directly next to them that is heat affected.





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Old September 11, 2019, 19:48   #34
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Good deal! I'm a sucker for a hard case, and it appears you are too... But as it was said, with these things drying up, what was once a waste of time is worth a second look these days.

I vaguely remember the repair on the barrel Terry mentions. Removing damage and adding metal is a creative process. There is no one right way. I really like silver solder, so I am prone to cutting out damage in such a fashion that I can solder in a block of new material that can then be cut to the original dimension. Generally easier to machine than weld, takes park better, ect. But that was my method. I was good enough with the TIG to do my stainless park tanks but never trusted myself enough with it for other things.

Any time you add material and then parkerize, you WILL get color differences, from the different material, the different hardness, the heat added, or all the above. The only real way to make that disappear is paint. Since a lot of FALs were painted anyway that works out real well.

Understanding the affects of the process you use on the part you use it on, and the stresses affecting that part are very important. I'm sure Mark used some manner of heat control for the barrel as he welded it. It's no different than forging a Mauser bolt handle with it's hardened areas on the bolt.... you know what you're doing and take steps to mitigate the heat.

I'm kicking around the idea of restoring drilled demil barrels. Also an idea to build up M1 Garand bolt faces. Both are well though out and have been run up the flag pole with experienced and knowledgeable people. I just haven't had the time or equipment to fiddle with that stuff. Yet.

As this stuff gets more and more scarce, exotic repairs are going to become more and more common.
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Old September 12, 2019, 08:53   #35
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I'm kicking around the idea of restoring drilled demil barrels.
Jim Fuller had a demilled PKT barrel chamber welded. I was worried, but it works. Maybe bake at 500 afterwards to normalize?
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Old September 12, 2019, 09:37   #36
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This is very interesting stuff. The thought of being able to restore demilled BGS barrels makes me giddy.
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Old September 12, 2019, 12:42   #37
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This is very interesting stuff. The thought of being able to restore demilled BGS barrels makes me giddy.
yep!

Like,,,03's and also Mk1 Brits.
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Old September 12, 2019, 13:52   #38
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Good deal! I'm a sucker for a hard case, and it appears you are too... But as it was said, with these things drying up, what was once a waste of time is worth a second look these days.

I vaguely remember the repair on the barrel Terry mentions. Removing damage and adding metal is a creative process. There is no one right way. I really like silver solder, so I am prone to cutting out damage in such a fashion that I can solder in a block of new material that can then be cut to the original dimension. Generally easier to machine than weld, takes park better, ect. But that was my method. I was good enough with the TIG to do my stainless park tanks but never trusted myself enough with it for other things.

Any time you add material and then parkerize, you WILL get color differences, from the different material, the different hardness, the heat added, or all the above. The only real way to make that disappear is paint. Since a lot of FALs were painted anyway that works out real well.

Understanding the affects of the process you use on the part you use it on, and the stresses affecting that part are very important. I'm sure Mark used some manner of heat control for the barrel as he welded it. It's no different than forging a Mauser bolt handle with it's hardened areas on the bolt.... you know what you're doing and take steps to mitigate the heat.

I'm kicking around the idea of restoring drilled demil barrels. Also an idea to build up M1 Garand bolt faces. Both are well though out and have been run up the flag pole with experienced and knowledgeable people. I just haven't had the time or equipment to fiddle with that stuff. Yet.

As this stuff gets more and more scarce, exotic repairs are going to become more and more common.
sort of true but still not totally accurate Adam

one thing that mostly normalizes added metal is cyro
Had it done a few times on badly bobbed Sharps, once on a pre Winchester Browning single shot then reamed and lined
rust blue came back perfect, no shades or discoloring at point of new unions

some high end resto shops employ cyro processing to "homogenize" weldment prior to finish as well
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Old September 12, 2019, 17:53   #39
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Jim Fuller had a demilled PKT barrel chamber welded. I was worried, but it works. Maybe bake at 500 afterwards to normalize?
...... way back when "DP" SLRs were cheap mostly because the chambers were drilled. I saw more than a few over the years on the firing line at Service Rifles shoots that had had the chambers welded up and re-cut. They functioned and seemed to shoot fine. I would not have been comfortable with one though. Perhaps mostly psychological but in those days for maybe $100 more a new barrel was an option.
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Old September 12, 2019, 18:39   #40
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I never tried real hard to match park color on repairs. If it really mattered then I sprayed something on over it. One example was the L2 barrel I made from a DSA Izzy HB. Had to machine and add material to the barrel behind the gas block shoulder, then remachine for the Aussie style gas regulator cuts. The wee thin line of silver solder was the only giveaway and if you didn't know to look for it you wouldn't see it.

As for the damaged barrels, restoring the drilled chamber is not the challenge. Restoring the rifled bore is another matter. I have some ideas but like I said, time and equipment are lacking.

Hold on to those drilled BGS B barrels. Maybe someday.

It's good to see people putting thought into restorations. Funny how we've come full circle from the $99 dollar kit days.
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Old September 12, 2019, 19:11   #41
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Jim Fuller had a demilled PKT barrel chamber welded. I was worried, but it works. Maybe bake at 500 afterwards to normalize?
Don't know much about barrel steel but usually steel normalizes at around 1500 F and above........



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Old September 12, 2019, 19:39   #42
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I never tried real hard to match park color on repairs. If it really mattered then I sprayed something on over it. One example was the L2 barrel I made from a DSA Izzy HB. Had to machine and add material to the barrel behind the gas block shoulder, then remachine for the Aussie style gas regulator cuts. The wee thin line of silver solder was the only giveaway and if you didn't know to look for it you wouldn't see it.

As for the damaged barrels, restoring the drilled chamber is not the challenge. Restoring the rifled bore is another matter. I have some ideas but like I said, time and equipment are lacking.

Hold on to those drilled BGS B barrels. Maybe someday.

It's good to see people putting thought into restorations. Funny how we've come full circle from the $99 dollar kit days.
I have four BGS barrels and will be watching to see if the ability to repair them comes to fruition.
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Old September 12, 2019, 21:45   #43
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Don't know much about barrel steel but usually steel normalizes at around 1500 F and above........
YMMV
So, I know many things, but I also know what I don't know, and rarely confuse them.

So back in the day, when one could not get para bolt carriers, I made them by welding tubes to FAL bolt carriers machined flat. What I noticed was that the welding caused them to warp so the rails were no longer flat/parallel. But - in collaboration with a old-school cold war Polish Machinist friend of mine, I put in the oven at 500F for several hours and they "relaxed" to within .003" of where the started.

So while I don't profess to have any intuitive understanding, I have best practices recommendations that manifested as beneficial dimensional changes in the finished product.

Also, back in my nickel plating days, parts were baked afterwards starting at 500F and gradually reducing (I have a chart somewhere) to gas off excess hydrogen.

It seems to me that 1500 F would be beyond cherry red, so I'm trying to see the point in it.

Again, not a metallurgy guy. But I read stuff. Isn't most post heat treat tempering done around 700F?
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Old September 13, 2019, 00:34   #44
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
So, I know many things, but I also know what I don't know, and rarely confuse them.

So back in the day, when one could not get para bolt carriers, I made them by welding tubes to FAL bolt carriers machined flat. What I noticed was that the welding caused them to warp so the rails were no longer flat/parallel. But - in collaboration with a old-school cold war Polish Machinist friend of mine, I put in the oven at 500F for several hours and they "relaxed" to within .003" of where the started.

So while I don't profess to have any intuitive understanding, I have best practices recommendations that manifested as beneficial dimensional changes in the finished product.

Also, back in my nickel plating days, parts were baked afterwards starting at 500F and gradually reducing (I have a chart somewhere) to gas off excess hydrogen.

It seems to me that 1500 F would be beyond cherry red, so I'm trying to see the point in it.

Again, not a metallurgy guy. But I read stuff. Isn't most post heat treat tempering done around 700F?


Well I'm no expert, I just dabble making knives. And I'm sure the composition of the steel would be a variable possibly also the thickness or preexisting stresses (assuming confinement or geometry)?

https://www.leonghuat.com/articles/Normalizing.htm

Post heat treating (or quenching for hardness) is not normalizing. Normalizing is done before heat treating (quenching for hardness). I believe to relieve forging (or other) stresses and to refine the grain structure. Tempering is done after heat treating (quenching for hardness) to reduce or bring the hardness and brittleness of the steel down to the acceptable/desired range. And I believe you are correct most tempering is 700 F and probably a bit lower (again depending on the steel composition).

I have no idea what went on with your Fal bolt carrier tubes though I do believe we have a member who is a real live metallurgist. Maybe he can provide some input.


Below is a one definition of the key terms....though note they are all part of a 'heat treatment' process!

https://www.quora.com/What-is-differ...-and-quenching

Quote:
Annealing:

It is the process of heating a metal in a furnace above it's recrystallization temperature and allow it to cool inside the furnace. First the temperature of the material is raised (say 912–915C for cast iron or steel). Secondly the material is soaked in that temperature for few hours. Third, the temperature is lowered and the material is allowed to cool inside the furnace. Annealing improves ductility, strength and good elongation properties.

Normalising:

The process is similar to that of annealing, but after soaking stage the material is taken out from the furnace and allowed to cool in atmosphere. The properties of the material are bit lower than that of annealing because of different cooling areas in the material.

Quenching:

Quenching is the process of heating the material above the recrystallization temperature and cooling it suddenly in a water bath or oil bath or in polymers. Type of quenchant depends upon the application. Martensite matrix structure is seen in case of quenched materials. The material becomes so hard, more brittle and has the ability to withstand wear, vibrations. Abrasive resistance is more but can't handle creep and impact loads.

Tempering:

It is the heat treatment process which is done usually after quenching. In the process the material is heated to a temperature below the recrystallization value and holded for few hours. This process removes internal stress and improve a bit of ductility to the hard material. Usually tool steels undergo this process to improve tool life.
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Last edited by Jaxxas; September 13, 2019 at 01:45. Reason: clarity
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Old September 13, 2019, 17:34   #45
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
So, I know many things, but I also know what I don't know, and rarely confuse them.

So back in the day, when one could not get para bolt carriers, I made them by welding tubes to FAL bolt carriers machined flat. What I noticed was that the welding caused them to warp so the rails were no longer flat/parallel. But - in collaboration with a old-school cold war Polish Machinist friend of mine, I put in the oven at 500F for several hours and they "relaxed" to within .003" of where the started.

So while I don't profess to have any intuitive understanding, I have best practices recommendations that manifested as beneficial dimensional changes in the finished product.

Also, back in my nickel plating days, parts were baked afterwards starting at 500F and gradually reducing (I have a chart somewhere) to gas off excess hydrogen.

It seems to me that 1500 F would be beyond cherry red, so I'm trying to see the point in it.

Again, not a metallurgy guy. But I read stuff. Isn't most post heat treat tempering done around 700F?
I don't know about FAL barrel but for M14/M16 barrels, after button rifling or cold forming the barrel they are stress relieved at around 1000 F for a half hour.

Welding shouldn't damage the heat treatment of the barrel steel. But, it might introduce internal stresses in the tube that affect accuracy (but not like big ones if the welding is at the breech,)

EDIT: Also, machine gun barrel regularly get heated to 1250 to 1300 F during belt dumps and don't loose integrity. And after they cool back down are ready for some more abuse.

Last edited by lysanderxiii; September 13, 2019 at 17:49.
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Old September 13, 2019, 17:42   #46
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Well I'm no expert, I just dabble making knives.
.....sorry gentlemen...a short aside....knives you say....have these been pictured here in the appropriate forum ??

Now...back to your regular programming.....I am no welder....nor metallurgist....but that does look like nice clean work Mark !
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Old September 13, 2019, 21:10   #47
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.....sorry gentlemen...a short aside....knives you say....have these been pictured here in the appropriate forum ??

Now...back to your regular programming.....I am no welder....nor metallurgist....but that does look like nice clean work Mark !
LOL, if'n I ever produce something worth sharing you'll see it here first!

Joe
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