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Old January 20, 2020, 10:43   #1
ByronF
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Detached Shed Wiring

Have a shed wiring question. Running 100A feed from house (200A service) to my shed. In the shed I installed a 100A main service box, which I think is overkill: more amps than I need, more positions than I'll use, and I dont think I needed the 100A breaker since its all protected by the 100A breaker at the house. A sub-panel (no main disconnect, just load breakers) would have worked, I think. But for an extra $25 why not go big.

On a main service box the ground and neutral are tied , as purchased. This is not OK downstream of the main at the house so I removed the strap in the shed's box that tied them. So I converted the main service box to a sub-panel except I still have a 220V 100A breaker in the shed (redundant to the breaker in the house).

Question 1: should either neutral or ground at the shed sub-panel be tied to the box itself?

Question 2: should I tie the ground bus to a grounding rod at the shed?

Thanks
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Old January 20, 2020, 11:34   #2
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the main double pole switch is actually that: two separate switches.

i cannot understand why you think that the subordinate breaker box ground and neutral cannot be tied, and that the box body cannot be tied with them to a grounding rod.
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Old January 20, 2020, 11:44   #3
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My understanding is the ONLY place that neutral and ground may be connected is at the main service panel nearest to the meter. Reason has to do with backfeeding onto the neutral line in case of some fault condition. It makes no matter except in the case of a shorted load with a loose neutral, or some such thing. I'd have to see the schematic to understand the problematic condition. I just know it's not to code.
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Old January 20, 2020, 11:45   #4
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Sounds like your Dremel won't blow a breaker.
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Old January 20, 2020, 12:02   #5
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I havent dremelled a gun in so long it hurts. Is blue-bits a recognized medical condition?
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Old January 20, 2020, 12:08   #6
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if that is in code it's new to me, and i've wired several houses with out-buildings. i suppose proximity to ground rod is the effective factor, but staying within code is important for insurance and resale reasons, if nothing else.

a ground rod tied to buss bar cannot hurt, and copper coated steel rods are cheap. just be sure to use adequate gauge wire in your 100 amp conveyance for the distance spanned.

how is your family getting along in the new environment?
things are quiet here in york county.
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If the concept of heading on down to the local Home Depot and transforming $100 worth of random pipe bits into a killing machine doesn’t appeal to you, you’re a frikkin' pansy. Also, you’re probably sane and will live significantly longer than I will.

Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Old January 20, 2020, 13:20   #7
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The house main 200 amp panel is the only place that a bonded neutral is used. The 100 amp panel should not be bonded to ground. This is done to prevent circulating ground currents. Check with your building inspector or the NEC (National Electric Code) book for proper grounding requirements.
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Old January 20, 2020, 14:56   #8
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You need to run the neutral to your shed and not bond it to ground there. The neutral is bonded to ground at the transformer. All neutral needs to go back to that exact ground. It keeps the transformer balanced.

As far as your question as to earthing the ground in the shed, you should be fine.
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Old January 20, 2020, 18:33   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
a ground rod tied to buss bar cannot hurt, and copper coated steel rods are cheap. just be sure to use adequate gauge wire in your 100 amp conveyance for the distance spanned.

how is your family getting along in the new environment?
things are quiet here in york county.
I figured on 2-2-2-2-4 aluminium but gotta check if run length will dictate larger.

I bought and installed a separate grounding bus strip so I didnt have to do any WECSOE fuckery, though I had a perfectly functional idea of separating the left and right neutral/ground busses (it involved a dremel).

Progress is slowed to stapling up some wire. Box is wired. Now some light drinking, Marty Robbins, listening to distant helos at Ft Campbell. Love a shed. But why is it colder here than in PA?
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Old January 20, 2020, 20:18   #10
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Originally Posted by Uriah Lee View Post
The house main 200 amp panel is the only place that a bonded neutral is used. The 100 amp panel should not be bonded to ground. This is done to prevent circulating ground currents. Check with your building inspector or the NEC (National Electric Code) book for proper grounding requirements.
Make sure I understand this right...the panel should not be bonded to a ground (rod) at or near the location of the sub panel. It still has to be tied to the ground system of the primary feed panel. I think I would certainly want to know the sub panel (box) is somehow tied into the ground system,so if I were to touch it,I would not act as a path to ground.
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Old January 20, 2020, 20:29   #11
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Originally Posted by RG Coburn View Post
Make sure I understand this right...the panel should not be bonded to a ground (rod) at or near the location of the sub panel. It still has to be tied to the ground system of the primary feed panel. I think I would certainly want to know the sub panel (box) is somehow tied into the ground system,so if I were to touch it,I would not act as a path to ground.
Neutral is always bonded back to the supply ground. It keeps all the power balanced at the origin. Basically asking 3 wires or 4 on the long run or one short run with a long rod in the ground with 3 wires. A neutral balances the load hence why to see every power line with a ground wire attached. You can ground on the bonded neutral if it comes from the Xformer
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Last edited by meltblown; January 20, 2020 at 20:37.
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Old January 20, 2020, 21:00   #12
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Originally Posted by ByronF View Post
I figured on 2-2-2-2-4 aluminium but gotta check if run length will dictate larger.

I bought and installed a separate grounding bus strip so I didnt have to do any WECSOE fuckery, though I had a perfectly functional idea of separating the left and right neutral/ground busses (it involved a dremel).

Progress is slowed to stapling up some wire. Box is wired. Now some light drinking, Marty Robbins, listening to distant helos at Ft Campbell. Love a shed. But why is it colder here than in PA?
Kenturkey dampness makes the cold a little more penetrating. I've never bonded a sub panel neutral to ground. I have come across Xformers not bonded and that floating neutral was a bugger - zap - ow !.
Couple weeks ago a buddy asked me to look at his niece's little trailer she lives in. Her dad wired the heater with undersized aluminum feeder. Then I saw he was feeding the two single pole 60 amp heater breakers with a double pole 100amp breaker. Wires got hot and nearly burned down the trailer trash - well they did start a fire but they got it out. I pulled it all out and apart and smashed the 100 amp breaker so they wouldn't put it back in. Put in a 60amp to feed the 60's in the heater ( replaced and rewired them too ) and one of them was fubar'd. Put #3 copper feeders in there I had on hand - overkill but fine for the situation. I had to have a talk with her handy man dad...not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
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Old January 20, 2020, 21:04   #13
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Originally Posted by ByronF View Post
I figured on 2-2-2-2-4 aluminium but gotta check if run length will dictate larger.

I bought and installed a separate grounding bus strip so I didnt have to do any WECSOE fuckery, though I had a perfectly functional idea of separating the left and right neutral/ground busses (it involved a dremel).

Progress is slowed to stapling up some wire. Box is wired. Now some light drinking, Marty Robbins, listening to distant helos at Ft Campbell. Love a shed. But why is it colder here than in PA?
I really shy away from aluminum feeders. For the slight extra cost just go copper...you'll sleep better at night. On all shed/out building applications I always bond the ground in panel to a ground rod - minimum #6 wire is my preference. I'm no fan of direct burial SE wire...put it in sch40 PVC and again...sleep good.
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The vice of capitolism is it's unequal sharing of blessings.
The Virtue of Socialism is it's equal sharing of MISERY.
Winston Churchill

1) Culture builds upon the past
2) The past always tries to control the future.
3) Our future is becoming less free
4) To build free societies you must limit control of the past.

All hail lord IMPOTUS and Darth Biden All hail.
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Old January 21, 2020, 11:48   #14
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sounds like we have a professional opinion.

as stated, aluminum is fine for overhead if seated in a good dollop of noalox grease at each end.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-NO...-026/202276208

go with copper in PVC to protect it if you bury.

BTW, it was 15* this morning in the valley, and i am contributing to global warming with plenty of anthracite and the damper half way open, buddy.
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If the concept of heading on down to the local Home Depot and transforming $100 worth of random pipe bits into a killing machine doesn’t appeal to you, you’re a frikkin' pansy. Also, you’re probably sane and will live significantly longer than I will.

Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Old January 21, 2020, 13:01   #15
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You run four conductor cable (three insulated, one bare for the grounding conductor) and separate the grounds from the neutral in the subpanel. Don’t drive a ground rod at the subpanel. The ground rod(s) at your main panel is the grounding electrode for your whole electrical system.
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Old January 21, 2020, 14:57   #16
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Yea Justa it was around 15-18 here in Indiana County this morning... we had the Brunco Hearthglow running pretty warm on wood and bituminous coal which is around 95 bucks a ton.
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Old January 21, 2020, 15:05   #17
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The neutral to ground connection should only be at the incoming distribution box.

A second ground rod at the shed's sub-panel may not be needed, but could be beneficial.

ETA: If you put 10 electrical engineers in a room discussing grounding for 10 hours, you will come out with 10 different solutions.
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Old Yesterday, 20:32   #18
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Time to punt pal! You obviously have no clue on what to do and are as big as a hazard to your self as you are to burning down your she shed.
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Old Yesterday, 21:04   #19
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One of these books might help...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/65bad2g635...House.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1p7s6mxrex...ryone.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/618pf7twd8...iring.pdf?dl=0
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Old Yesterday, 21:09   #20
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I'm getting old enough that a big ole run of SO cord would do with 4 conductors

I just can't find it free anymore.
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Old Yesterday, 21:12   #21
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Time to punt pal! You obviously have no clue on what to do and are as big as a hazard to your self as you are to burning down your she shed.
And where would the FAL Files be with that attitude? We decide to do things, research it, ask questions and figure it out. I never built an FAL until I did.
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Old Yesterday, 21:51   #22
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and bituminous coal which is around 95 bucks a ton.
schuylkill anthracite is 220 a ton here, with a flat 60$ delivery, and burns well in a 50 year old Warm Morning. i put a sheet metal lined wood framed coal bin 6'X6' sequester in the basement that holds 4 tons and power feeds thru a port/chute in the porch wall from the short-bed truck's conveyor in about 10 minutes, and my brother rents it out over the summer as a girlfriend cage. so i figure it will cost me about a thou in nut coal this year, minus the 12 bux a week i get from Steve.

ignore that a-hole. as the only guy on this forum with 82% of a brain i resent pretenders like him.

but then, i'm the guy that built a home-made flamethrower, so what do i know about circumspection?
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If the concept of heading on down to the local Home Depot and transforming $100 worth of random pipe bits into a killing machine doesn’t appeal to you, you’re a frikkin' pansy. Also, you’re probably sane and will live significantly longer than I will.

Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."

Last edited by justashooter; Yesterday at 21:58.
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