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Old August 15, 2014, 11:32   #51
Larry Vickers
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Wel done on the pictures

Great job on this thread !!
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Old August 15, 2014, 12:45   #52
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Coming from you, that's high praise sir. Thank you very much!
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Old August 16, 2014, 12:54   #53
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Very nice !!

Brass killer though.
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Old August 21, 2014, 18:28   #54
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Nice splinter pattern Zeltbahn!
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Old August 21, 2014, 20:08   #55
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A while back, I took the SIG out to the range for the first time in its life. I didn't have a scope mount at the time so I just used the iron sights. I didn't bother to report then because I frankly had very little to report. It was already sighted in and required no adjustment. Recoil is extremely mild because of the rifle's geometry and design. As I had already read in the past, the sights are adequate for combat but terrible for precise target shooting because the front sight post is so wide. I'm sure that plenty of rounds down the pipe would engender you with the necessary experience to shoot it extremely well though. As expected, the safety lever exhibits dreadful ergonomics but the wonderful trigger pull is a thing to behold. Ejection is nothing like the brass rocket launches we seen with an HK (I really do think that there is brass in orbit thanks to our German friends in Oberndorf). Instead, the brass lands within about five feet out to the side. Some of it even ended up on the shooting bench. Well, as seen in the above post, I finally got myself a scope mount a little while back. My first range trip with a scope was used to zero it and I was impressed. However, I was using various different NATO surplus ammo mixed in with some South African stuff so there was some variation in groups and POI. My second range trip with the scope (but my third time at the range with the rifle) gave me the results that I suspected this rifle is capable of. I was Using some 1985 Radway Green which has always given me excellent service in both My HK and my Cetme and I did even better in the SIG. The scope I was using was a surplus 4x Hensoldt Z24 and I was shooting at 100 yards. Here is my target:



Now, I'm a pretty poor shot and I'm usually just happy to hit the target. Also, if I were to use a smaller red circle, I would probably shoot a little better. My first group of 5 was so small (I should have marked them but I forgot) that I got over excited and ended up with three fliers in my second group of 5. In the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, I'm sure that an even better group is possible. I think this rifle would be well served with a higher magnification scope. I'm really liking that Zeiss Conquest......

Anywho, for me, the above is excellent results. Here is an assortment of how the brass looks once the SIG is done with it:



Some of them get a little misshapen but nothing like the mess I am accustomed to seeing coming out of a roller lock:



Let's look at some propellant art. On the right is a casing from the SIG and on the left is a steel case that was shot in either my Cetme of my HK (I forget which):



And a comparison of case necks. Again, SIG on the right and Cetme or HK on the left. Notice that the SIG has more flutes. Probably not necessary but we ARE talking about the Swiss here:



Lastly, a comparison shot of the SIG compared to an FG42. While the '42 is of comparable build quality to the SIG, there is absolutely no comparison in target results. But that's a story for another post.

I take it the Sig is more accurate than the FG42.
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Old August 22, 2014, 00:02   #56
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It is but it is also an unfair comparison. The only real reason I have both pictured is because both were out with me and it was convenient. The SIG is......well.....Swiss. It's hard for anybody to match that in the precision department. The Swiss had the luxury of peacetime production and the hindsight of everything that had gone before it. It was designed from the outset as a precision all purpose weapon. The FG42 was designed as an all purpose weapon too but the Germans were concerned with cost and ease of manufacture whereas the Swiss really didn't care about such things. Their primary concern was Quality. Having said that, the SMG FG42 is built with an eye for Quality as well. In my opinion, the main reason that the FG42 cannot match the SIG in accuracy is the overall design (especially the ignition design)of the rifle. In short, Quality is not the problem, design is.
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Old August 22, 2014, 00:41   #57
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So do the disassembly/reassembly steps apply to the Stgw 57? Very similar to the 510.
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Old August 22, 2014, 02:13   #58
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With regards to field stripping, yes. As for components which differ, I cannot say. If I had a PE57 in hand, I would absolutely be comparing and contrasting the two. However, I don't need yet another caliber to feed so, unless someone lends me one, that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
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Old August 23, 2014, 16:40   #59
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With regards to field stripping, yes. As for components which differ, I cannot say. If I had a PE57 in hand, I would absolutely be comparing and contrasting the two. However, I don't need yet another caliber to feed so, unless someone lends me one, that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
I was just curious. I have PE57 kit being turned into something useful.
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Old August 25, 2014, 01:14   #60
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I was just curious. I have PE57 kit being turned into something useful.
I would like to check that out.
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Old August 25, 2014, 22:05   #61
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I would like to check that out.
Believe me, I cant wait to check it out either. When it shows Im going to have to post up some pics for sure. In the meantime revisit the HCI review in this forum.
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Old August 26, 2014, 21:03   #62
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Have a bunch of new 20rd 510/AMT mags, trying to find a AMT
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Old August 29, 2014, 22:01   #63
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wonderful work combloc.....if I envied your rifle would be first
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Old September 06, 2014, 22:19   #64
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Thank you Brother COMBLOC for a fantastic thread. The SIG 510 was always one of my favorite military rifles. Did SIG stop making them because they were too expensive to produce? 33 years is a long production run. Do the Swiss still get to own them after they get out of the service? Are all men considered in the reserve and get to keep them?

Thanks,
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Old September 07, 2014, 23:19   #65
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I think the main reason they quit making them is partly because the design was showing its age and partly because they felt they needed a 5.56 rifle because NATO was switching. I've never gotten the feeling that the Swiss have ever been concerned about the cost of their equipment.

As far as I know, yes.

I don't think military service is universal anymore, which is unfortunate. But, if you do join, you do still get to take your rifle home upon mustering out. That hasn't changed as far as I know.

Again, thank you guys for taking the time to read my essay! It makes me quite happy that someone is getting use out of it.
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Old September 24, 2014, 12:03   #66
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i find it really interesting that in one of your (gorgeous, btw) photos at the very beginning- you show the AMT's relative size toward other rifles of the same lineage/timeline/caliber... and it looks positively small by comparison.

i just received a finished receiver from MagArms, and the rifle is surprisingly large when assembled.

is it simply barrel length?

here are some pics taken side by side with an FN variant...
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admittedly, the ipad pictures are horrible- especially in light of the quality pics which are the meat of this... documentary. but they can at least reflect proportion and size.


parts-wise, they are the same rifle. just interesting how in one guise it looks almost diminutive... and in another looks like some overbuilt giant.
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Old September 24, 2014, 19:35   #67
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Oh,my... I did not realize the 57 was such monstrous rifle. I bought my kit sight unseen from a very reliable source, and had it shipped off for my build, I can just see the crowd when I show up at my FFL to pick it up. They call me the FAL Guy down there.
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Old September 24, 2014, 20:00   #68
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Works of art
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Old September 24, 2014, 20:48   #69
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Oh,my... I did not realize the 57 was such monstrous rifle. I bought my kit sight unseen from a very reliable source, and had it shipped off for my build, I can just see the crowd when I show up at my FFL to pick it up. They call me the FAL Guy down there.
Ha! that's pretty much what happened when I picked mine up. Guys had NO IDEA what the hell it was. Thought it was a machine gun. Completely turned the shop upside down.

good luck with your build. Who's doing it?
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Old September 24, 2014, 21:08   #70
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Ha! that's pretty much what happened when I picked mine up. Guys had NO IDEA what the hell it was. Thought it was a machine gun. Completely turned the shop upside down.

good luck with your build. Who's doing it?
Honey Creek Industries. There's a review somewhere here in the last years worth of threads. If I could drag you a link...
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Old September 24, 2014, 22:42   #71
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Works of art
Yep, pretty badass. Looks like it should have a big belt of ammo hanging out of it.
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Old September 25, 2014, 14:48   #72
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Lightbulb Question ?

Question For the 57 Owners and Users, how comfortable is that near vertical pistol grip?
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Old September 25, 2014, 19:33   #73
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Question For the 57 Owners and Users, how comfortable is that near vertical pistol grip?
From my limited use, it hasn't been an issue to even think about. if you look at the height of the rear sight peep hole, compared to the fn, and the distance the grip extends... I think the hand grip, trigger, etc. sets lower, and thus the wrist is more parallel/perpendicular to the forearm. Whereas the fn, everything sits higher/closer to the cheek, and thus the wrist has to bend to accommodate.

did I explain that clearly? cuz it sure doesn't seem so...

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Old September 25, 2014, 23:54   #74
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schmuzzy, It has to be the barrel length. Both rifles use the same receiver.

As for the pistol grip, it grows on you really fast.
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Old September 26, 2014, 11:18   #75
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schmuzzy, It has to be the barrel length. Both rifles use the same receiver.

As for the pistol grip, it grows on you really fast.

from a pixel count, using the FN FAL in both pics for calibration... it looks like the stock is a smidge shorter too. barrel difference looks to be about 18% difference... a little over 4" shorter.

making it an 1" shorter than the Chilean PE57-4 version.

interesting.
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Old September 30, 2014, 13:42   #76
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One more minor point to add...

had the two rifles shown (both 7.62 NATO) out at the range this past weekend. the FN has a decided kick to it, and the low sight line means you really have to dig your face into the hard plastic stock. not the most comfortable rifle to shoot all day.

the full size Stgw57 is a heavy beast- but my god, what an utter joy to shoot. fires that .308 down range with all the impart of a .223

130yds, iron sights and my ageing eyes... still kept 8 of 8 in the black. (25yd standard pistol target black, btw)
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Old October 01, 2014, 00:28   #77
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Swiss military products NEVER fail to please my friend!
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Old October 02, 2014, 21:14   #78
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Now Im really drooling while I wait for mine. Good things come to those who wait, right?
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Old October 06, 2014, 20:49   #79
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Now Im really drooling while I wait for mine. Good things come to those who wait, right?
Hey Brother, I'm waiting too, on the watch for some ammo to help ya break that one in, yeah, I'd drive up there just to shoot with you and your PE57 .

Not one for crowds when shooting these days.
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Old October 06, 2014, 21:50   #80
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Hey Brother, I'm waiting too, on the watch for some ammo to help ya break that one in, yeah, I'd drive up there just to shoot with you and your PE57 .

Not one for crowds when shooting these days.
If you would really like to do that, I'l shoot a pm when I have it. Bring a couple boxes of .308 and We can do it. Im working on a new "private range" my last one got Bulldozed for new farmland.
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Old October 07, 2014, 14:27   #81
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I would like to do that, when the time comes, I might be able to get up there.
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Old September 16, 2015, 20:57   #82
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combloc do you have the contact info for the guy making the scope bases?
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Old September 17, 2015, 09:17   #83
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With regards to field stripping, yes. As for components which differ, I cannot say. If I had a PE57 in hand, I would absolutely be comparing and contrasting the two. However, I don't need yet another caliber to feed so, unless someone lends me one, that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
Extractor/ejector (PE57 can be shortened for the AMT)
Bolt heads (different due to case dimensions)
Recoil spring assembly tips (different)

Tony
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Old September 17, 2015, 09:20   #84
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combloc do you have the contact info for the guy making the scope bases?
Estes Adams--- fg42man on Gunbroker!!!

Tony
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Old September 17, 2015, 20:09   #85
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Estes Adams--- fg42man on Gunbroker!!!

Tony
Thanks Tony!
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Old September 18, 2015, 08:48   #86
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Thanks Tony!
You are very welcome--- Estes does nice work!!!

Tony
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Old September 18, 2015, 08:50   #87
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Extractor/ejector (PE57 can be shortened for the AMT)
Bolt heads (different due to case dimensions)
Recoil spring assembly tips (different)

Tony
Also, the rear of the 2-piece bolt (different due to the recoil spring assembly tips)

Tony
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Old August 13, 2016, 10:17   #88
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Also, the rear of the 2-piece bolt (different due to the recoil spring assembly tips)

Tony
In addition the STGW57 and PE57 bolt rear sections are different due to the location of the buffer in the buttstock. The Stgw 57 mainspring assembly has 3 springs in it. The tip of the spring guide is spring loaded as well with a fairly small diameter spring.

The PE57 and the Stgw 57 are not the same gun. All those parts kits that were imported were for the Stgw 57 of which there were more than 800,000 built. Even if they were modified for semi auto only they are still Stgw 57s.

The Magwell is different, the trigger group and housing are different, the receiver is different, markings and serial range are different. Only about 4000 PE57s were ever built and all were built by SIG specifically for the commercial market. They will use either the Stgw 57 magazines or the AMT mag which is not the case with the Stgw 57. The Stgw has a narrow section at the front of the magwell to help keep the mag from rattling around. The PE has had this area made wider. Probably the intent was to allow the use of the 510-4 / AMT mag in other calibers. Its possible the guns imported into France were done in .243 cal due to the regulations prohibiting military calibers. .243 will work fine in the AMT mag but not in the Stgw 57.

The sight bases on All the PEs were made to accept the standard scope mounts. Very few of the Stgw 57s have scope mounts and none of the kits I've seen do. I've heard numbers of 2000-30,000 of the Stgws tossed about but I don't know for sure.

Serial numbers on all the Stgw 57s start with the letter A. All of the kits I've seen in the US and almost all the guns I saw in Switzerland were 6 digit numbers plus the A prefix. The A indicates military use. All of the PE 57s serial numbers start with PE indicating commercial manufacture. PE means Privat Einzelfeuer, or Single shot (semi auto). The serial numbers of the PE series were never more then 4 digits. Not a lot of the guns were imported into the US. I've seen a couple different numbers for importers with 1200-1900 of them being a reasonable estimate.

The 510-4 / AMT is a very similar thing. The 510-4 was a modified 7.62 X 51 version of the Swiss battle rifle and was intended for sale to other countries in that cal. The Swiss didn't use 308 so it wasn't for them. The guns were sold to Bolivia and Chile but the Swiss due to their Neutrality weren't permitted to sell to them directly. For that reason Beretta in Italy was setup to make the guns for those sales.

The AMT was a commercial semi auto only version of the 510-4 built specifically for the civilian market. AMT stands for American Match Target. The only semi-auto only, 510-4 marked guns imported into the US were the test and evaluation guns brought in for ATF import determination. There were a dozen or less. Once approval was granted the guns subsequently imported were all marked SIG AMT. About 3000 guns total were produced and once again US import numbers seem to vary from about 1200-2000 depending on source. All are marked on top of the front trunnion with SIG AMT and a serial number. All the serials I've seen have been 5 digit and range from 15000 to just over 20000.

The differences between the AMT and the 510-4 are not as great as that between the Stgw and PE 57s. Basic differences are the trigger group and housing, markings and serial range, and the muzzle end of the barrel. All the barrels with the grenade launching rings and muzzle brake/flash hider are for the 510-4. They are not AMT barrels so all those that DSA sold were and are not AMT barrels or kits, they are 510-4 kits and parts. The proof markings on the parts and barrels are different so its possible the 510-4 stuff was made by Beretta. I'm not convinced most of the stuff wasn't made in Switzerland and assembled in Italy. AMT barrels are all threaded and have no grenade launching rings. Thats what makes them AMT and not 510-4. In addition the trigger housings won't interchange. The full auto 510-4 housings won't fit on the semi auto AMT receiver. The same is true of the PE and Stgw 57s. Chilean 510-4 front trunnions from that import were marked Armada de Chile and a serial number. I don't know if all the kits DSA brought in were from the Chilean Navy but there were also guns marked Ejercito de Chile and Fuerza Aerea de Chile if I recall correctly. I've not seen any of those as kits. I've not seen any of the Bolivian guns or parts sets in the US either.

Maybe its a bit nitpicking but there are distinct differences between the Semi only commercial guns and the military service guns. The parts imported for the Stgw 57 and 510-4 are frequently called by the names of the Semi only commercial guns. Some folks know and don't care, some folks have no idea there is a difference. It is a greater difference than those between the G3 and the HK91. Import numbers are really hard to nail down because while it is possible to find numbers from the importers (if they'll share) is not really possible to get numbers from ATF for totals. There were guns imported by individuals way back when and they don't always comply with the licensed importers requirements. They are generally not import marked either. GI's brought stuff in from PX sales in foreign lands too so its not reasonably possible to nail down exact numbers.

Hope the information helps.

Frank

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Old August 13, 2016, 11:13   #89
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In addition the STGW57 and PE57 bolt rear sections are different due to the location of the buffer in the buttstock. The Stgw 57 mainspring assembly has 3 springs in it. The tip of the spring guide is spring loaded as well with a fairly small diameter spring.

The PE57 and the Stgw 57 are not the same gun. All those parts kits that were imported were for the Stgw 57 of which there were more than 800,000 built. Even if they were modified for semi auto only they are still Stgw 57s.

The Magwell is different, the trigger group and housing are different, the receiver is different, markings and serial range are different. Only about 4000 PE57s were ever built and all were built by SIG specifically for the commercial market. They will use either the Stgw 57 magazines or the AMT mag which is not the case with the Stgw 57. The Stgw has a narrow section at the front of the magwell to help keep the mag from rattling around. The PE has had this area made wider. Probably the intent was to allow the use of the 510-4 / AMT mag in other calibers. Its possible the guns imported into France were done in .243 cal due to the regulations prohibiting military calibers. .243 will work fine in the AMT mag but not in the Stgw 57.

The sight bases on All the PEs were made to accept the standard scope mounts. Very few of the Stgw 57s have scope mounts and none of the kits I've seen do. I've heard numbers of 2000-30,000 of the Stgws tossed about but I don't know for sure.

Serial numbers on all the Stgw 57s start with the letter A. All of the kits I've seen in the US and almost all the guns I saw in Switzerland were 6 digit numbers plus the A prefix. The A indicates military use. All of the PE 57s serial numbers start with PE indicating commercial manufacture. PE means Privat Einzelfeuer, or Single shot (semi auto). The serial numbers of the PE series were never more then 4 digits. Not a lot of the guns were imported into the US. I've seen a couple different numbers for importers with 1200-1900 of them being a reasonable estimate.

The 510-4 / AMT is a very similar thing. The 510-4 was a modified 7.62 X 51 version of the Swiss battle rifle and was intended for sale to other countries in that cal. The Swiss didn't use 308 so it wasn't for them. The guns were sold to Bolivia and Chile but the Swiss due to their Neutrality weren't permitted to sell to them directly. For that reason Beretta in Italy was setup to make the guns for those sales.

The AMT was a commercial semi auto only version of the 510-4 built specifically for the civilian market. AMT stands for American Match Target. The only semi-auto only, 510-4 marked guns imported into the US were the test and evaluation guns brought in for ATF import determination. There were a dozen or less. Once approval was granted the guns subsequently imported were all marked SIG AMT. About 3000 guns total were produced and once again US import numbers seem to vary from about 1200-2000 depending on source. All are marked on top of the front trunnion with SIG AMT and a serial number. All the serials I've seen have been 5 digit and range from 15000 to just over 20000.

The differences between the AMT and the 510-4 are not as great as that between the Stgw and PE 57s. Basic differences are the trigger group and housing, markings and serial range, and the muzzle end of the barrel. All the barrels with the grenade launching rings and muzzle brake/flash hider are for the 510-4. They are not AMT barrels so all those that DSA sold were and are not AMT barrels or kits, they are 510-4 kits and parts. The proof markings on the parts and barrels are different so its possible the 510-4 stuff was made by Beretta. I'm not convinced most of the stuff wasn't made in Switzerland and assembled in Italy. AMT barrels are all threaded and have no grenade launching rings. Thats what makes them AMT and not 510-4. In addition the trigger housings won't interchange. The full auto 510-4 housings won't fit on the semi auto AMT receiver. The same is true of the PE and Stgw 57s. Chilean 510-4 front trunnions from that import were marked Armada de Chile and a serial number. I don't know if all the kits DSA brought in were from the Chilean Navy but there were also guns marked Ejercito de Chile and Fuerza Aerea de Chile if I recall correctly. I've not seen any of those as kits. I've not seen any of the Bolivian guns or parts sets in the US either.

Maybe its a bit nitpicking but there are distinct differences between the Semi only commercial guns and the military service guns. The parts imported for the Stgw 57 and 510-4 are frequently called by the names of the Semi only commercial guns. Some folks know and don't care, some folks have no idea there is a difference. It is a greater difference than those between the G3 and the HK91. Import numbers are really hard to nail down because while it is possible to find numbers from the importers (if they'll share) is not really possible to get numbers from ATF for totals. There were guns imported by individuals way back when and they don't always comply with the licensed importers requirements. They are generally not import marked either. GI's brought stuff in from PX sales in foreign lands too so its not reasonably possible to nail down exact numbers.

Hope the information helps.
Great info, Frank, thanks for it...

And, while my AMT SN falls in the range you mention, it's a couple of hundred higher than 20000 (for your information).

Forrest
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