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C2A1 February 13, 2013 10:29

EMP update
 
I work with the guys on the congressional EMP group. Report was submitted to the WH and what was made public was watered down. To get the word out Dr Peter Pry has taken the committee's work and has had it publisihed. For the latest go to amazon and get "Apocalypse Unknown" by Peter Pry. It is non fiction what is going on book.
Some folks are taking this seriously. One group is the Texas Utility Board. They are working with the Texas electrical utilities to begin to harden the grid and to be able to "disconnect" from the non protected grids. North Carolina is looking at it, as is Maine. Texas being Texas however has the political will and independent thought and is proceeding, not just talking.
The other group which has a plan in place is CSX railroad. I can't get into the details but they have a SHTF plan in place. Given the telecom system will be down they will still have a 30% capacity and have worked a plan with certain refineries to provide power from the locomotives to keep the refinies up and move crude in exchange for fuel.
Just FYI.

Jaxxas February 13, 2013 12:39

Sounds like something I'd like to read. But if he really wanted to get the word out, he would put it out on Kindle at $10 instead a $50 paperback.

C2A1 February 13, 2013 17:53

Good question, I'll ask when I see him.

C2A1 February 14, 2013 10:23

I talked with Dr. Pry last night and he said that it would be out in Kindle format shortly. He didn't have an exact date but he said that he hoped that it won't be long.

L Haney February 14, 2013 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2A1 (Post 3545020)
... have worked a plan with certain refineries to provide power from the locomotives to keep the refinies up and move crude in exchange for fuel.

Not many people are aware of the electrical generation capacity of a locomotive engine. Much less twenty of them.

xtremerange February 14, 2013 11:08

That makes sense. I knew a modern Diesel loco engine was basically just a generator with motorized wheels.

Gary Harwell February 14, 2013 11:58

What's going to still need crude/ refined in a real EMP crisis? .gov?
Could see real utility in the locomotives in a solar flare crisis to keep things moving.

Jaxxas February 14, 2013 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2A1 (Post 3545993)
I talked with Dr. Pry last night and he said that it would be out in Kindle format shortly. He didn't have an exact date but he said that he hoped that it won't be long.

Excellent, thank you!

RG Coburn February 14, 2013 15:34

Locomotives produce DC power,no? Just like submarines?

L Haney February 14, 2013 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn (Post 3546207)
Locomotives produce DC power,no? Just like submarines?

Yes, the traction motors run on DC. Very easy to convert to 60hz AC these days. In a pinch the motors can be dismounted and used to drive alternators directly.

C2A1 February 14, 2013 20:38

The crude is for fuel for the railroad. Also they do not want the refinery cracking towers to go down ( takes months to bring them on line if the cat isn't damaged). At 30% capacity they will move food, fuel (agricultural) and critical items. Part of the plan is to not miss the next planting season.

ByronF February 15, 2013 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn (Post 3546207)
Locomotives produce DC power,no? Just like submarines?

Some AC, some DC. Most in the 4500-6000 hp range.

2barearms February 15, 2013 06:40

They hold a bunch of Diesel also.

Story February 15, 2013 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney (Post 3546000)
Not many people are aware of the electrical generation capacity of a locomotive engine. Much less twenty of them.

That's real interesting - thanks.:whiskey:

Footnote readings for this thread :
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277940

Particularly this
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=58

C2A1 February 20, 2013 12:55

I reviewed chapters but got my copies today. 385 pages, covers various potential diasters. Includes Dark winter bio attack and he does include Iranian current nuclear capablity ( russian devices). Has effects for different attacks ( ground, ballon, scud). Solar effects. Not for light bathroom reading but if you want to be up to speed in this area, good reference.

L1A1rocker February 20, 2013 13:17

This great to hear. Someone that has answers to EMP questions that knows. Would you be willing to answer some questions?

I'm particularly interested in how to get a car going again in the event of an EMP. I've put some things away in a sealed steel safe like alternator, coil, etc but I'm not sure if it's everything I need.

I'm also curious about solar panals to recharge batteries. How do you harden or store solar panals for use post EMP event.

tdb59 February 20, 2013 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney (Post 3546000)
Not many people are aware of the electrical generation capacity of a locomotive engine. Much less twenty of them.

My Dad has told me of using power from a Diesel locomotive when he was training in the Corps of Engineers at Ft. Belvoir in '43.
He did not say for what exact purpose.



:uhoh:

RT February 20, 2013 20:16

we need to chip in and buy an atlas 4 silo. to keep us all safe. with all the eng's we have and wesogs here we can make rocket stoves and heaters. that burn wood. gas a fires for fuel. etc. with this old bunch we will make it for a long time, or until we run out of metlimusle.(sp) the drink that makes you go. reg. every day :D

C2A1 February 21, 2013 11:42

On autos, it is not a simple answer. It will depend on where the car is and it's orientation to the pulse source ( assuming EMP and not geomagnetic, different pulse shapes). New cars have redundent electronics built in, however they are interfaced so you may have your timing circuit make it but one brake system is fried. Or the whole system is fried, or the trannie is fried etc.
On older vehicles, pre 90s the real vulnerable peice is the ignition control box. Have a couple of spares in an ammo can. Point vehicles with a mechanical voltage regulator will fair well ( 1969 and earlierfor Chrysler). The alternator I have spare brushs and diodes in the box. Cars with generators will fair even better. Coils will be OK.
However the real nightmare is the actual wiring harness. This long piece of wire will soak up a lot of energy. That energy will go to the control box, instruments etc ( remember the gauges in the truck in close encounters ). Anyway, the harness may burn up. Again this will depend on te vehicle and orientation. Older vehicles with more metal to shield the guts will fair better. That is also an issue with house wiring. There will be a LOT of buildings burning.
Working with these guys has been interesting. One fellow ran the last EMP test to be conducted on a full system, in this case a command and control room. Test was run with folks at their posts. He said when the pulse was fired, the room became like you'd see in a sci-fi movie. The metal racks of radio end electronic gear had archs jumping around them, computer keyboards had fingers of electricity dancing across them. He said things protected by faraday cages didn't make it. Some people were shocked. I asked what made it. He laughed and said the old black govt rotary telephones.

L1A1rocker February 28, 2013 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2A1 (Post 3552217)
On autos, it is not a simple answer. It will depend on where the car is and it's orientation to the pulse source ( assuming EMP and not geomagnetic, different pulse shapes). New cars have redundent electronics built in, however they are interfaced so you may have your timing circuit make it but one brake system is fried. Or the whole system is fried, or the trannie is fried etc.
On older vehicles, pre 90s the real vulnerable peice is the ignition control box. Have a couple of spares in an ammo can. Point vehicles with a mechanical voltage regulator will fair well ( 1969 and earlierfor Chrysler). The alternator I have spare brushs and diodes in the box. Cars with generators will fair even better. Coils will be OK.
However the real nightmare is the actual wiring harness. This long piece of wire will soak up a lot of energy. That energy will go to the control box, instruments etc ( remember the gauges in the truck in close encounters ). Anyway, the harness may burn up. Again this will depend on te vehicle and orientation. Older vehicles with more metal to shield the guts will fair better. That is also an issue with house wiring. There will be a LOT of buildings burning.
Working with these guys has been interesting. One fellow ran the last EMP test to be conducted on a full system, in this case a command and control room. Test was run with folks at their posts. He said when the pulse was fired, the room became like you'd see in a sci-fi movie. The metal racks of radio end electronic gear had archs jumping around them, computer keyboards had fingers of electricity dancing across them. He said things protected by faraday cages didn't make it. Some people were shocked. I asked what made it. He laughed and said the old black govt rotary telephones.

Thank you very much for the info. I'm surprised that coils made it. What I've got that I think could be put back into service the easiest is a 1977 Corvette. (I wish it was a 77 pickup but it belonged to my late father and I'm not getting rid of it) I've got a steel, inground safe that is just sitting on the floor. In that I've placed, in their cardboard boxes, a coil, ignition module, starter seleniod, and alternator. I then put the steal cover plate on it and taped it up with metal foil tape. I was considering putting in a windshield wiper motor also but haven't gotten around to it. From what you say I may still have a problem as the fiberglass will not shield the wiring harness.

I've also got a 1994 Suburban but discounted it because it does have a computer on it and an in tank electric fuel pump. My 2003 Excursion was also discounted do to massive electronics in it.

Do you have any suggestions for additional safeguards I could take? Regarding the solar panels. If they were left in their original packaging and wrapped up in aluminum foil like a present would they be ok? Oh, and one more question. Military steel ammo cans have a rubber gasket. If I'm putting anything in one of those should it be sealed up with metal foil tape?

Thank you very much for taking the time to post this information.

Roadmarker February 28, 2013 01:55

As long as the metal overlaps it should be no problem. A chicken wire cage will work also, it doesn't have to be a continueous sheild. We're talking about a Faraday cage.

L Haney February 28, 2013 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadmarker (Post 3556959)
A chicken wire cage will work also, it doesn't have to be a continueous sheild. We're talking about a Faraday cage.

Might want to rethink that one. The 'pulse' part of EMP is the kicker. The rise time of the pulse is the reciprocal of the frequency. Get that fast enough and chicken wire might as well be tissue paper.

A nuke derived EMP pulse is quite good on achieving a spectacularly short rise time.

Distance is your friend in addition to shielding. Penetration through soil with a normal moisture content is also limited.

Roadmarker February 28, 2013 11:46

You bring up some interesting questions concerning EMP.
A faraday cage shields the interior from external electromagnetic radiation if the conductor is thick enough and any holes are significantly smaller than the wavelength of the radiation. Grounding is also a must.
So it's a matter of the conductivity of the cage, thickness of wire, or the distance between conductors? What good would mylar do if it is about the conductivity or capacity to bleed away all those "extra' electrons?
Would a layered approach afford more protection?
I guess the amount of energy released by the event would be the key. Distance as mentioned would be another. We can't control those variables, so what is the standard to which we should prepare against? Some guidelines would be a very good start.
Interesting topic to say the least.

L1A1rocker March 14, 2013 17:18

Bump

Slo cat March 17, 2013 10:09

I have a shop/garage building that has a steel roof and walls. It is grounded too. Except for it's floor (earth and part reinforced concrete), two smallish windows and garage doors, it is steel covered. Can I expect some shielding from this?

L Haney March 17, 2013 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadmarker (Post 3557150)
Grounding is also a must.

I'ma gonna' make it tougher. You mentioned frequency of the pulse, which is also the reciprocal of the rise time. Now that grounding thing.

IF your grounding system has sufficient inductance at the frequency it is subjected to, it may not have a positive effect at all. It becomes a "choke" in electrical terms and isolates that fast rise time pulse from being able to deliver current to ground.

You want LESS inductance. Fatter conductors (woven metallic strap is far better than wire), multiple ground rods, distributed connections from the structure to those rods. You want the shortest distance to the discharge points (rods) with the least amount of bends in the strapping possible.

Right angles look very neat and professional in your ground wiring. Avoid that like the plague. Curves, not angles.

You're trying to tackle a difficult technical challenge.

Limited protection from an EMP event is fairly easy. Comprehensive safeguards will take significantly more effort and expense.

Hey, if it was easy everybody could do it.

L1A1rocker March 19, 2013 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slo cat (Post 3570089)
I have a shop/garage building that has a steel roof and walls. It is grounded too. Except for it's floor (earth and part reinforced concrete), two smallish windows and garage doors, it is steel covered. Can I expect some shielding from this?

The windows are a big problem no matter how small. A metal screen over them will help. There are also two (or three) types of EMP. First is the natural kind like the Carrington Event of 1859. Second is the artificial kind from a nuke event. And third (or a sub class of the second) is a nuke that takes advantage of the Compton Affect. The only way to shield against the third kind is a totally sealed metal box. Should the third type be in play the EM wave will get in even through the seem in the door.

C2A1 March 20, 2013 11:50

FYI, Watch news later today. Iran is finishing it's weapons. Gen II fat man design. 200Kt type yeild.
Note, last satellite launch was a south east launch which with a 12 degree change would have brought it over Kansas coming from the SE on first orbit.
Think FOBS.
Things are going to get interesting in the mid east over the next couple of months.

Slo cat March 20, 2013 12:03

There have alway been rogue nations. But now, there are two of these with nuclear capabilities.

Iran will wait until they have several nukes so that they can blanket most of Israel in one shot. And don't you think Israel knows this? And will strike first?

And N. Korea, wouldn't they like to detonate three high altitude nukes over CONUS and some more over Japan and S. Korea at the same time?

The world as we knew it has changed. WWIII anyone?

Rogue nation = A nation who's leaders act irrationally.

nyquil March 20, 2013 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slo cat (Post 3572772)
There have alway been rogue nations. But now, there are two of these with nuclear capabilities.

Iran will wait until they have several nukes so that they can blanket most of Israel in one shot. And don't you think Israel knows this? And will strike first?

And N. Korea, wouldn't they like to detonate three high altitude nukes over CONUS and some more over Japan and S. Korea at the same time?

The world as we knew it has changed. WWIII anyone?

Rogue nation = A nation who's leaders act irrationally.

Using your definition the US is a rouge nation.

L Haney March 20, 2013 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyquil (Post 3573008)
Using your definition the US is a rouge nation.

:bow: Lot of folks around the globe would agree with that!

Sixtysixdeuce March 22, 2013 15:29

Quote:

Might want to rethink that one. The 'pulse' part of EMP is the kicker. The rise time of the pulse is the reciprocal of the frequency. Get that fast enough and chicken wire might as well be tissue paper.

A nuke derived EMP pulse is quite good on achieving a spectacularly short rise time.

Distance is your friend in addition to shielding. Penetration through soil with a normal moisture content is also limited.
This. The E1 component of a high altitude nuclear detonation is very fast and very sharp (< 1 microsecond, > 6 MW/square meter), and we have little that is hardened against it. The 1962 Pacific ocean Starfish Prime test took out tons of infrastructure in Hawaii, including traffic signals and telecom circuits. Consider that at the time, pretty much everything was analog and the weapons were not as powerful, you can see what a bad situation we'd be in today.

gates April 03, 2013 20:54

I have my important stuff packed in these:

http://techprotectbag.com/

Inside my big ass safe:-)

Skilter April 03, 2013 21:35

get your wireless up and running and let the wife micro a meal for 20 min... See if you get any connection...

I am an expert by no reason, but I get pissed when she does it... I cannot imagine what would happen with an EMP and I am glad people are working on stuff like this. (AKA why I still have an 84 TLC)

RG Coburn April 03, 2013 22:56

From Haney...
"You want LESS inductance. Fatter conductors (woven metallic strap is far better than wire), multiple ground rods, distributed connections from the structure to those rods. You want the shortest distance to the discharge points (rods) with the least amount of bends in the strapping possible."

All listed are also standards for grounding antenna towers,as per my recent ARRL test...

Slo cat April 03, 2013 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skilter (Post 3583066)
I cannot imagine what would happen with an EMP and I am glad people are working on stuff like this.

Read "Once Second After". See http://www.amazon.com/One-Second-Aft.../dp/0765356864
I bought three of these. Gave one to my son (Lt. US Navy) and two to my neighbors who I noticed have common sense, unlike some who think the US government is on par with N. Korea and Iran.

A more complete description of the book is on Wikipedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After

NEWFNL1A1 April 03, 2013 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slo cat (Post 3583120)
Read "Once Second After". See http://www.amazon.com/One-Second-Aft.../dp/0765356864
I bought three of these. Gave one to my son (Lt. US Navy) and two to my neighbors who I noticed have common sense, unlike some who think the US government is on par with N. Korea and Iran.

A more complete description of the book is on Wikipedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After


Great book!

TheOtherTinMan April 04, 2013 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slo cat (Post 3572772)
There have alway been rogue nations. But now, there are two of these with nuclear capabilities.

Iran will wait until they have several nukes so that they can blanket most of Israel in one shot. And don't you think Israel knows this? And will strike first?

And N. Korea, wouldn't they like to detonate three high altitude nukes over CONUS and some more over Japan and S. Korea at the same time?

The world as we knew it has changed. WWIII anyone?

Rogue nation = A nation who's leaders act irrationally.

Hmm... Iran, hasn't attacked anyone in ages, was relatively stable until we meddled back in the 50s and then allowed the crazies to take over in the 70s...

Let's not forget our ally Pakistan, you know, the guys who created the Taliban, offered them sanctuary, where Osama was supposedly hiding out all this time next door to a Paki government agency building...

I'd say Pakistan was a bigger threat than Iran...

Syria, where we have been aiding and arming AlQaeda to overthrow Assad...

Oh yeah, let's not forget The Colonel in Libya, you know, who was trying to modernise Libya and keep the crazies at bay? So we go in and help AlQaeda overthwo his government... kind of like we helped the Muslim Brotherhood overthrow Mubarrak (sp?) in Egypt, replacing a generally secular somewhat pro-american regime with the crazies, once again...

I really think the whole standard 'Axis of Evil Nations out to Get Us' meme is almost cartoonish compared to what's really been going on... and what is planned for us all...

susi April 04, 2013 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyquil (Post 3573008)
Using your definition the US is a rouge nation.

Please learn how to spell "ROGUE"!!!

Rouge is what you probably put on your cheeks this morning.

chet April 04, 2013 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney (Post 3570107)
I'ma gonna' make it tougher. You mentioned frequency of the pulse, which is also the reciprocal of the rise time. Now that grounding thing.

IF your grounding system has sufficient inductance at the frequency it is subjected to, it may not have a positive effect at all. It becomes a "choke" in electrical terms and isolates that fast rise time pulse from being able to deliver current to ground.

You want LESS inductance. Fatter conductors (woven metallic strap is far better than wire), multiple ground rods, distributed connections from the structure to those rods. You want the shortest distance to the discharge points (rods) with the least amount of bends in the strapping possible.

Right angles look very neat and professional in your ground wiring. Avoid that like the plague. Curves, not angles.

You're trying to tackle a difficult technical challenge.

Limited protection from an EMP event is fairly easy. Comprehensive safeguards will take significantly more effort and expense.

Hey, if it was easy everybody could do it.

If you ever have the time or patience, could you do a quick, down, and dirty schematic of this idea with a large enough box to hold the items being discussed.

THAT would be much appreciated.

Also, one question about the interior of the box. Would the items have to be suspended on insulators of some type? If so, explain.

Thanks in advance.

Skilter April 05, 2013 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by susi (Post 3583440)
Please learn how to spell "ROGUE"!!!

Rouge is what you probably put on your cheeks this morning.

FUNNY! :biggrin:

If things keep going as they are we might actually become a ROUGE nation!

FN74 June 05, 2013 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney (Post 3557002)
Might want to rethink that one. The 'pulse' part of EMP is the kicker. The rise time of the pulse is the reciprocal of the frequency. Get that fast enough and chicken wire might as well be tissue paper.

A nuke derived EMP pulse is quite good on achieving a spectacularly short rise time.

Distance is your friend in addition to shielding. Penetration through soil with a normal moisture content is also limited.

Agreed, a serious faraday cage is much more than wrapping some chicken wire around a box...

L Haney June 05, 2013 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by chet (Post 3583517)
If you ever have the time or patience, could you do a quick, down, and dirty schematic of this idea with a large enough box to hold the items being discussed.


Missed this post, sorry.

Far as the box, if I wanted one I'd go to a HVAC contractor that can fabricate rigid duct and plenums. Aluminum boxes of almost any size you want with a (somewhat) thermally insulated interior. Rolled seams if possible.

Any other corner seam can be made more rigid and RF tight by installing aluminum angle stock over the seam. You don't need anything thicker than the stuff they make continuous gutter out of.

Make the door like you would a shoe box lid. But do add an additional 'lip' inside the door that laps onto the inside of the wall of the box. This needs to fit without gaps, and the longer the overlap of the lid and box the better.

I'll see if I can come up with a grounding drawing.

ALL FAL June 05, 2013 21:13

Just an Idea, I use Airlines shipping containers with a few mods for faraday cages, smaller boxes are easier to get, all aluminum parts on most units, some I have scrounged up were free, look around at larger airports.

fnogger June 05, 2013 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxxas (Post 3545143)
Sounds like something I'd like to read. But if he really wanted to get the word out, he would put it out on Kindle at $10 instead a $50 paperback.

Paid for with government funding? Creative Commons no-commercial-use

MordeanGrey June 06, 2013 08:06

Would surplus metal ammo cans be helpful if used with the EMP bags listed above for small devices?

It sounds like multiple layers of metal surrounding the object to be protected is the way to go if you don't have a dedicated room.

Just trying to think of things that many of us have around the house.

L Haney June 06, 2013 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MordeanGrey (Post 3624592)

Just trying to think of things that many of us have around the house.

A 55 gallon steel open top drum with the lid on, retaining band snugged down and grounded is damn near impervious. And they are less than 50 bucks new.

gunsmoke June 06, 2013 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney (Post 3624755)
A 55 gallon steel open top drum with the lid on, retaining band snugged down and grounded is damn near impervious. And they are less than 50 bucks new.

G R O U N D I N G - - - > Being the operative and most important word!

OMR_RDTandE June 06, 2013 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunsmoke (Post 3624807)
G R O U N D I N G - - - > Being the operative and most important word!

If grounding is a concern, use a Ufer Ground- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground This beats the hell out of driving grounding rods.

C2A1 June 07, 2013 19:59

Maine just passed LD-131 to begin to protect the Maine electrical grid from EMP. Seems North Carolina and Texas are looking at the ecomonics of EMP on the local economies and are looking at keeping their grids alive, given Maine's proactive movement. From what I've been told the locals don't see anything from DC and want to make sure their ecomonies recover first, independent of Washington.


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