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-   -   Genuine L1A1 considered C&R (https://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432015)

Ethan909 September 14, 2018 12:12

Genuine L1A1 considered C&R
 
Is there any reason why a LEO L1A1 imported by century in the 90s are not considered a C&R? I know the rifles are a grey area of legality, but in my mind it’s a semi auto rifle and nothing more. The rifle is over 50 years old so it is by definition a C&R?

D. Lehrman September 14, 2018 12:17

BATF defines/determines CR status, alas, not you and me...or any other sensible folks...

Ethan909 September 14, 2018 12:30

Ok found on the ATF website.
“Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list.”

So it IS a C&R

VALMET September 14, 2018 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan909 (Post 4634165)
Ok found on the ATF website.
“Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list.”

So it IS a C&R

Not necessarily, by that logic any pre-68 semi FAL is a C&R when in fact only Gs on the list have C&R status (as far as I know).

Best to stick to BATF’s published list.

Ethan909 September 14, 2018 13:23

A firearm does not need to be listed to be a C&R. Any FAL in its original configuration is a C&R.

VALMET September 14, 2018 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan909 (Post 4634198)
A firearm does not need to be listed to be a C&R. Any FAL in its original configuration is a C&R.

You do you then...good luck with that. I hope you’re right just wouldn’t want to be tasked with arguing that in Federal court.

stoicrabbit September 14, 2018 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by VALMET (Post 4634178)
Not necessarily, by that logic any pre-68 semi FAL is a C&R when in fact only Gs on the list have C&R status (as far as I know).

The sticking point is proving “any pre-68 semi FAL” is over 50 years old.
Does Fabrique Nation have date of production data based on serial number?
However, British and Australian L1A1s have the year of production on the receiver (regulated part). I have no issue acquiring or disposing of an L1A1 that is over 50 years old via type 03 FFL.

pre1989 September 14, 2018 13:44

c&r is weird ..Ie some UZI are on it some are not the Bren 10 is and other not

I am guessing the parts gun are not really counted as orginal guns ..

Most of the more "modern gun" are on the list due to either being from a country that longer is around ie E german or being a rare or curiosity like some Bren 10s and UZI

tdb59 September 14, 2018 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by VALMET (Post 4634178)
Not necessarily, by that logic any pre-68 semi FAL is a C&R when in fact only Gs on the list have C&R status (as far as I know).

Best to stick to BATF’s published list.

"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list."


https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics


:angel:


................................

VALMET September 14, 2018 13:48

Still not trying to argue that an LEO CAI L1A1 is a C&R in Federal court. But I’d truly like for OP to be right.

And if sear cut as some of them are that brings up a whole different question.

imacoonass01 September 14, 2018 14:34

The upper receiver on a FAL / L1A1 is the "regulated" aka "gun" part, so if it was originally made before 1968, then there should not be a problem being a C&R. Most all parts kits are made with later receivers (See # 1 ), so tough luck on that. You could ask a friend that is a Museum Curator to help you (See # 2 ) The gray area is the # 3 reference (Who defines this?).

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

3.Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

D. Lehrman September 14, 2018 17:06

....and just which FAL receivers made before 1968 would fit your argument as available now in the United States for mythical C&R status??? The G Series listed guns; anything else from that era is a machine gun under other ATF regulation, so far. Now if you want to send your LEO in to ATF Tech Branch I have the address here somewhere. Given that the records and books on the LEO guns went up in the big "fire" at Century, and you can't prove anything other than possession on your LEO, no import provinance; you might have a hard time just hanging onto it altogether. Lesse, the letter goes something to the effect you may abandon to destruction of fight it out in court. That's still something I don't want to finance through a federal court system. Seen enough of the court system myself...I'm still on watch as an urban wild life killer due to the precipitous drop in the squirrel population in our neighborhood - something the judge found unacceptable, and they had video.

djfin September 16, 2018 14:24

C & R
 
Per the ATF as in the people who get to decide ANY firearm over fifty years old is a C&R firearm. That does not mean any firearm over fifty years old is legal to own. A WWII era Thompson machine gun is a C&R weapon but still not legal to own unless it is registered on the NFA list. C&R status does not mean legal to own. The LEO L1A1 battle is a grey area as the original sale was restricted but latter resale was not. Does this make them a loophole firearm and legal to own? I am not convinced either way on this subject but as several have been sold thru major stores that I am aware of it does seem to be legal.

JonnyP September 19, 2018 18:33

Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration...

So if one owns an LEO L1A1, you should immediately re-install the safety sear? Just to be all shipshape and Bristol fashion like.
:biggrin::shades::D

Rudolf September 20, 2018 23:34

hmmmm My Lithgow AD62 LEO L1A1 could be C and R??:confused::?

slag September 21, 2018 09:31

There is no "gray area" on the CAI LEO L1A1. They are legal to own, and people buy and sell them openly, as witnessed by the marketplace sales on this very site and others. There is also no "gray area" on the C&R status of firearms that are 50 years or older, listed or not. My Fudd detector is going off as I read the posts on this thread.

hagar September 21, 2018 10:30

All firearms in original condition over 50 years qualify. Some firearms, like the Walther P38/P1's made for army or police use qualify, no matter when they were made.

As far as what is original or not, that is a gray area. I'd say if it looks like the original, it's ok. If a p14 was converted to a 300 Weatherby magnum and the rear sights ground off, obviously not.

easttex September 21, 2018 14:08

The OP makes an interesting argument: that an all-original L1A1 made in 1968 would be considered a C&R firearm. As a semi-auto rifle, this would not be added to the NFA list and would therefore qualify as C&R status. Which is interesting academically.

For me however, in my dealings with purchasing firearms, I tend to err to the side of caution and so unless the BATFE had already ruled that an all-original L1A1 is considered C&R, I would personally still consider it a regular rifle and buy it through the usual process, rather than with a C&R license. But that's just me however, and I'm a cautious fellow.

djfin September 21, 2018 16:13

Being a C&R does not have anything to do with the NFA list. There are many NFA weapons that are also C&R weapons. And the ATF has stated ANY firearm over 50 years old is a C&R weapon.

Incognito October 05, 2018 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdb59 (Post 4634210)
"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list."


https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics


:angel:


................................

This is fantastic. So not only does the left feel like they are losing now because they cannot get an assault weapons ban passed, in about 20 years they are going to be hit with the reality that all of those "assault weapons" that they could not get banned are not only not banned but even easier to get than ever before. :) I cannot wait for that shit storm. I can see the CNN headline now: "Old loophole now allows assault rifles to be handed out to school children..."


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