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-   -   Finally! Swiss SIG P75 (https://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437823)

Combloc February 21, 2019 18:57

Finally! Swiss SIG P75
 
I've been trying to get hold of an example of this pistol for over 25 years now since first seeing one in a 1977 edition of "Small Arms of the World" and today I finally brought one home; and it's even an early version with the Type 1 slide! The problem is, because P75's are still current issue, they aren't available as surplus. The only avenue I'm aware of is through a retired Swiss serviceman who bought his issue sidearm upon leaving the service. That's a little hard being that I'm on another continent! Now, I could just buy an old P220 in 9mm and, in fact, I already own a couple Browning marked ones from 1977. But if you want a Swiss issue P75, none of those will scratch that itch. The crazy part is, the P75 isn't even actually made in Switzerland even though it' marked as if it were. No, the reality is that, for all intents and purposes, each and every "SIG" marked P75 issued was actually produced at J.P. Sauer & Sohn in Eckernförde Germany. The Swiss may have stamped and or assembled them (these is some controversy as to just how much of what was done where and by whom) but the Germans pretty much did all the production that mattered. So, the only really unique thing about owning a P75 versus a late 1970's 9mm Browning BDA or P220 marked "Made in W. Germany" is the Swiss markings. But to a guy like me who loves all things Swiss military, that's a big unique thing! Let's take a look!


Here's the left side in all it's worn in glory:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...pstbalqzsz.jpg
Notice the intricate curves and contours at the rear of the ejection port and the fine slide serrations. Nobody is sure exactly how many P75's were made but somewhere around the 12,000 serial number mark, they started simplifying the slide and it changed aesthetically but not mechanically but I'll get into that later in a separate thread. For now, just check out that cool "SIG" logo at the front of the slide. I get absolutely giddy looking at that!!


In fact, here's a close-up of that:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...pskks0huhm.jpg
And check out the nice wear above the SIG mark. Yeah......that's good stuff!! My funky fingerprint seen at the muzzle and the fleck of funk ahead of the logo....that's not good stuff though. Oh well.


Here's the right side:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psqec5jcoo.jpg
The serial number on this contract started at 1,000,000 so this is number 10, 423. It is stamped on the frame, slide and barrel. The "A" prefix stands for "Armee" so we know this is military issue, not police or some other service. At the bottom rear of the trigger guard is a "P" stamp. This essentially means "Privat" or "Private" indicating that it has been sold to the man it was issued to and is now no longer government property. Also visible are proof marks at the muzzle and on the barrel. Let's take a closer look at those.


Here are the two proof marks at the muzzle:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psi2gmenuv.jpg
The one closest to the muzzle is the firing proof denoting that the pistol has been tested with an overpowered charge and passed. The rear mark is the military/government acceptance mark saying "yep, looks good, we'll take it!!"


The barrel has another firing proof mark behind the serial number:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psdxgmb6au.jpg


Atop the rear of the slide is the Swiss property mark:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psg5dtfkst.jpg
Yummy yummy good!!! I love me some Swiss property marks.


At the front of the slide, we see the neato humps only seen on Type 1 and Type 2 slides (I call them humpbacks):
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psgtzdgpyb.jpg
The P75 is on bottom. Stacked on top is a Browning marked BDA dated 1977 for comparison. These slides are formed from stamped steel, NOT machined from a block.


Here's what those humps look like on the inside:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psz0zpo2dc.jpg


As an added bonus, it came with the proper holster:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psxjrwgcmq.jpg

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psmrpuzilg.jpg
The holster is dated 1977. If I'm interpreting the markings on the inside of the grips properly, they were made in May of 1977 which would be about right given the serial number so I have every confidence this was the holster that was originally issued with this particular pistol. Unfortunately, the troop tag is not present on the back of the grip but that's ok. I'll eventually get one that does have the tag.


This P75 shows some evidence of holster wear which I find to be most excellent! I like patina. In addition to the imbued History already present wear means I can also take it to the range without worrying about new scratches as they just tend to blend in. But internally, there is very little wear present so I expect this to be a wonderful shooter.

Well hecks!! I just lost connection to my picture service. I'll finish this up once it decides to work again! I'll be back.

wanneroo February 21, 2019 19:00

Very nice, how'd you find one of those?

Combloc February 21, 2019 19:02

Edelweiss Arms has had them trickling in since about September of last year.

wanneroo February 21, 2019 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Combloc (Post 4701742)
Edelweiss Arms has had them trickling in since about September of last year.

Thanks, I put it on my list for consideration.

Combloc February 21, 2019 21:21

Yay! Service is back. As I was saying, it's clear this P75 saw a lot more holster time than firing time as the following pictures show.


Grips removed:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psb3ywlobv.jpg

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psbnsblbeg.jpg


Notice how little wear there is on the steel locking block:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...pshgwc8yzf.jpg


Right rail showing almost zero wear. Left side looks the same:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psgq0rvhec.jpg



Exterior of barrel:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...pseb8jyari.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psfvwmbcot.jpg
Notice that they omitted the "SIG-SAUER" script normally always present on the left side of the chamber.


Crown:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psknkwbq0k.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...pslpab3qij.jpg



Rifling in general:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...pss2fkz60t.jpg
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...pstlyagtil.jpg


Breach:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psmqdy5p0i.jpg



If you're interested in buying one of these for yourself, check out Edelweiss Arms. As far as I know, these folks are the only place bringing in P75's and only at a trickle. I mean, how many Swiss dudes bought their P75 when they retired? And how many of those dudes are willing to let the one they bought go? Consider both of those factors and you most likely come up with a very small number. So, if you want one, grab it while you can. They won't be around forever. I don't get anything or this and Edelweiss doesn't even know I'm writing this but I have to say, in my experience, they have been excellent to deal with and they ship fast too. If you like Swiss firearms, you owe it to yourself to check 'em out.
Alrighty. That's it. I have another one of these on the way but it has a Type 2 slide. I'll probably do a short write-up comparing the two and throw the BDA's in there too for giggles. In fact, I'll probably just add it to this thread in the interest of efficiency. So, until then, I'll leave you with this thought. Never give up on that grail gun you've been wanting for forever.....you just might find one.....or even two! Thanks for your time!

AGG February 22, 2019 13:48

That is a nice sample--- thanks for the review!!! ;)

Tony

sharkey February 22, 2019 17:59

Very Nice! Nice pics too.

Single stack mag reminds me of the Hk P9.

gentlemanjoe February 22, 2019 18:33

Thanks for the write up. Very interesting and good photos.

bond 007 February 23, 2019 20:27

Finally! Swiss SIG P75
 
I have only seen one of those in my life, at the Tulsa gun show. I love my German Sig P220's, but, I just have to have one of those.:biggrin:

1911Ron February 24, 2019 08:23

Very nice, thanks for the write up.

jhend170 February 26, 2019 11:50

So knowing the reputation of the Swiss as the fine watchmakers they are, can you see and/or feel a fitment difference between it and the P220s? I ask because the early Baby Desert Eagles had the parts manufactured by Tanfoglio, and they were put together in Israel by IWI, and I can definitely tell there is a difference in the feel and lockup between my Witnesses and my BDEs. Just curious if you get the same feeling with your Sigs.

Bones2586 February 26, 2019 14:20

Nice review, thanks for the write-up and pictures. Cheers -

Combloc February 26, 2019 19:19

Racking the slides, I can see no difference at all. The trigger pull is slightly smoother and lighter both in single and double action. Whether that is coincidence or attention to detail though, I cannot say. By this weekend I should have another P75 and I can give you a more informed opinion at that time.

jt59 March 01, 2019 21:36

Listed on armslist Nashille today a sig220 in 9mm with Swiss markings. The pictures are not clear and it seems a bit high at $750.

Combloc March 04, 2019 01:09

I finally got around to taking some pictures of a second P75 I bought from Edelweiss arms, this time with what I call a Type 2 slide:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psjbrx7jml.jpg

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psyky2kug4.jpg


What in the yates is a Type 2 slide you ask? Actually, you probably aren't asking that but I'm gonna tell you anyways. Somewhere in the 12,xxx serial number range (11478 is a Type 1 and 13110 is a Type 2) they decided to start simplifying the design of the slide. Whether they did it to save money, time, both or just because they wanted to I have no idea. What I do know is, they did it.
Ok.....what did they do? Below is a right side view of a Type 1 slide (top) and a Type 2 (bottom):
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...pstksjyo0e.jpg
What we are looking at is the contour stamped into the frame that starts below the ejection port and runs forward and underneath the serial number. On the earlier slide, it is more "elegant" (for lack of a better word) and it has a gentle radius both at the top where it transitions into the thinner part of the slide above and at the bottom where it transitions into the wider, lower part of the slide that rides over the frame rail.
On the later slide, that contour is a much simpler flat surface which has relatively sharp edges where it transitions. It almost looks like the entire thing is ground into the slide rather then stamped into it. For all I know it is as I'm no expert on how these things were made. Whatever the case, it has a more industrial, no nonsense look. This same contour is still seen on the Sig Sauer pistols made today.


When we look at the left side, the change is even more obvious:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps3fkb9fvn.jpg
The way the light is hitting the contour being discussed really illustrates just how much this area was simplified. BUT, notice that the grasping serrations remain unchanged on the Type 2; both slides have 19 serrations.


Later, an even more simplified Type 3 slide was adopted which dropped the number of serrations down to 12. The Type 3 serrations are more aggressive too for a better grip when charging the pistol. At the same time, other changes were adopted all of which were cosmetic in nature. Switchover to the Type 3 took place somewhere between serial numbers 19205 - 22631 and, to my knowledge, there were no other changes to the 220 slide until the all milled version was adopted. Unfortunately, I do not currently have an example of a 220 with a Type 3 slide but I do have a P6 (German Police issue 225) which is essentially nnothing more than a shortened 220. It'll do for comparison purposes:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psswxtpvzi.jpg

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psakex5tfr.jpg
It is important to note that as far as I know, there were never any changes mechanically speaking. All changes were aesthetic only. Also, as far as I can tell, the barrels, frames, recoil assemblies, everything on a Type 1, 2 or 3 is absolutely identical other than the slides.


From above, the Type 1 and 2 are identical:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psz5qxfc6n.jpg
When the Type 3 was adopted, the humps were omitted and replaced with the simple flat area we typically see on a 220.


While we're at it, let's look at a few other things on this Type 2 P75:

The holster that it came with is identical to the one that came with my earlier pistol save for the rivet pattern on the back. That probably has less to do with a design change and more to do with the fact that a different contractor made it. This particular example was made in 1976:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psa3v3nmas.jpg


As with the earlier pistol, the rails show nearly zero wear:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psm1ils5l7.jpg

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps5zrirycz.jpg


I did not clean the Automatenfett (fancy-dancy Swiss grease) off of this Swisstol prior to photography. This way, I have a record of how it was lubed up when imported from the promised land.
Lots of pretty grease on and behind the locking block:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6rk7zr15.jpg


Along the bottom of the breach block/slide insert:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psayub3wfi.jpg


In and around the front bushing:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps89wup0fa.jpg


On the hammer/firing bits:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psijinh2cy.jpg


On the feed ramp and in the chamber:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psb6amtphp.jpg


And in the bore itself:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps7l7onrlu.jpg
While I couldn't capture it in pictures, everything on the inside is slick, apparently because everything has a light coating of that beautiful Swiss grease. I wonder how that stuff would do in my Honda engine......just kidding.

Combloc March 04, 2019 01:39

Continuing with this Swisstol, Here are the date codes inside the grips:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...pso1qnuart.jpg
On the left, we see one dated April of 1978 that was most likely mounted when it left the factory. The one on the right was probably a replacement as it is dated July 1981. When I say "April" and "July" that is an assumption based on the number of pips surrounding the year. I could be wrong and, in fact, I usually am, but I don't think so in this instance. Just like on many Swiss rifles, sometimes you find a troop tag affixed. On the rifles, it's under the butt plate. On the P75, it's found here, under the grips. This one doesn't have a troop tag but I'll make sure my next one does.



Here, we see some remnants of Automatenfett at the rear of the trigger bar:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psnvfmy2eu.jpg

When these things left the factory, this whole area was slathered in grease. Here are two pretty much new Browning BDA's from 1977 showing what I am talking about:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps4yiye77h.jpg


For whatever reason, the left side of the mechanism never got all that:
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...psmxcdunp7.jpg
The above picture is of the same BDA's but I would assume it is germane to the P75 as well.


Someone asked me about the import mark. It is cleanly done on the bottom of the dust cover:
https://i870.photobucket.com/albums/...psz1ipksrc.jpg
Yeah, it blows that it's gotta be on there but at least it's first class workmanship.

2barearms October 07, 2019 20:51

Great thread, bravo!

I am actually married to a beautiful Swiss woman. So naturally as a gun nut collector type got to looking at Swiss militaria and weaponry. Got to handle a Sig 550 military model in Langnau that belongs to a friend there.....had a nice K31 also...no safe either.....

So recently I’ve been shopping for a P49 and a P75...I did find Edelweiss and their rifles seem to be reasonable. Locally I picked up a Schmidt Rubin and a
Swiss Luger W-F Bern Model 29 I believe made during WW2. What’s not to love about the Swiss.....Gunbroken seems to have a pretty good selection of P49s.
Prices are all over the place. No P75s to be found....

Combloc October 07, 2019 21:53

Thank you.

I'm not 100% sure but I am of the distinct feeling that there are fewer than 50 P75's in the country. Edelweiss brought in about 28 (give or take) but say they have no plans to bring in more. I just had the Type 1 out to the range today. It shot just like any other 9mm P220 only it did it Swiss style! :)


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