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yovinny
April 16, 2008, 06:17
Been looking at picking up a new small fishing boat and I'm a little confused about all the choices in outboards today.
The one I'm interested in comes with a 90hp Mercury 2-stroke, but the salesman is pushing for me to upgrade it to a 4-stroke for a hefty premium.
He's basically saying the 2-strokes are disposable motors, but the 4-strokes will last as long as the boat does.

This will be trailered, stored inside and only used maybe 12-15 times a season in fresh water.

Are the new Mercury 2-stroke's any good ?
Are the 4-strokes worth the greatly added cost ?
Is their any real difference in the usefull life or maintance between the two ?

I dont mind mixing oil or doing maintance, but I need something that's going to last for awhile and not need to be replaced in a few years.

Cheers, YV

Duke_Spinner
April 16, 2008, 06:56
buy the 2 stroke ..

they been selling them since 1955 ...

it's lighter, and faster ..
and, it won't wear out ...

Abominog
April 16, 2008, 07:03
My 2-stroke is a 1964. I've had it since 1978. Use it every weekend June-October. No wear out- gets maintenance.

The traditional design is the 2-stroke. But it's bad for the environment, puking unspent fuel into the water.

Four strokes are much more fuel efficient, and better for the environment. Mathematically, the savings in gas and oil would pay for the difference.

The four strokes are heavier, and more costly. What would that much more weight do to your boat? To your wallet?

As far as quality, it seems like every new motor these days is a POS. My '64 runs and runs, and my buddies have to take their new motors in for repair.


Now, sad to say, the day will come when I have to replace my '64. I will get a four stroke, because I am sick of the stink of gas in the water, and 2-strokes will (be if haven't been already) outlawed. Toward the end of life of the motor, you'll want a 4-stroke.

Mason
April 16, 2008, 14:52
Abominog nailed it on the head. While 2 strokes are lighter, fewer parts, seem to run longer, etc, the fuel efficiency outweighs the 4 stroke. It's nothing to burn 10 gallons of 2 stroke mix in an afternoon. The same size 4 stroke would use half that.

If you're not going to use it all that much, though, the 2 stroke would be the better option (and cheaper). 4 strokes keep their resale value if kept in good shape.

phillip
April 16, 2008, 14:59
I heard something about the mfgs. or the gov. were phasing out the 2 stroke by a certain date for emissions reasons :? :?

renaissance_warrior
April 16, 2008, 15:11
I'd think we should phase out the government for emissions reasons. :tongue:

NoNotAgain
April 16, 2008, 16:52
Most new 2 stroke engines above 9.9 hp have an oil reservoir mounted under the cowling so mixing gas and oil is a thing of the past except the first tank of the year. The only reason for oiling the first tanks is so that you can verify that the oiler is working due to storage conditions.

2 stroke engines make more hp per liter of engine size due the lighter internals and not having an intake valve but operate at higher rpm’s verses 4 strokes.

Most modern 2 stroke engines don't even inject oil at idle.

As for purchasing a 4 stroke engine, get a Honda or Yamaha as they rule the 4 stroke outboard engine. Mercury still has a way to go in 4 stroke engines IMHO.

The fuel savings on using a 4 stroke verses a 2 stroke will pay for it's self within 4 years if you average 100 hours of use per year.

English Mike
April 16, 2008, 18:06
If you're going to be spending much time with the engine at low revs, then a four stroke is a better idea - no plug fouling issues & way better fuel economy.
Don't forget to factor in the cost of 2 stroke oil when comparing running costs, as it's a fair chunk of change.

As NoNotAgain said; Honda & Yamaha are the way to go.

A 90hp Mercury Optimax weighs 375lbs & a Honda EFi 395lbs, so there is little difference in weight.

1006587
April 16, 2008, 18:35
Take a look at the new Evinrude or Johnson. They are direct inject 2 strokes. They claim to be as clean and efficient as 4 strokes. Lighter too. From what I have read on boattest.com, boats with these engines use about the same fuel as 4 stroke powered models. The maintenance schedule for the first three years is, don't touch nothin! Put gas and oil in it and run it.

Evinrude got a bad rep 10-12 years ago when they introduced direct inject engines. FITCH I think it was called. They got it sorted out after a few years but went bankrupt fixing it. Bombardier owns them now and is a top notch manufacturer of all things mechanical. Don't let the old stories cloud your view of their new engines. All of the new direct inject 2 strokes get good mileage and low emissions, they have to because of new clean air requirements. They are not the stinky smoking beasts you know from years past.

Forgot to add this. The company that owns Mercury owns a lot of boat manufacturers. You can have any engine you want as long as it is painted black and says Mercury. They are able to offer complete boats for an attractive price. I'm not saying Merc is bad but I like options. You might want to expand your search for boats that let you chose the engine.

1006587
April 16, 2008, 19:11
Just spent some time on the Mercury and Evinrude websites. If the Merc engine is the EFI model, stay away it is a gas hog. The Opitimax series is direct inject and gets almost twice the MPG as EFI. Dang, Merc 4 strokes are heavy.

tump
April 16, 2008, 19:52
DO NOT BUY A HONDA their customer service is crap my sis & bro in law are getting a royal screwing on a $10,000 honda that they got dicked around on. they're getting an evinrude e-tec its lighter and faster check the web site for a good video. if you do go 4 stroke go with a yamaha.

tigerfans2
April 16, 2008, 21:20
I've got a p.o.s. Evinrude 40hp, 2 stroke. Damned thing isn't even 20 years old yet (it's an '89 model) and it already needs touch up paint on the top where the cheap tarps I change out every coupla years has worn it off.

Check out the fishing boat forums, I think most folks are still suggesting 2 strokes.

leek
April 16, 2008, 21:35
The emissions law went into effect 2006 for outboard motors and snowmobiles. The engines today are either high tech 2 strokes or 4 -strokes that meet these laws. There are still pre 2006 motor 2- strokes that are being sold today. They made a bunch of them before the deadline but now they are 2+ yr old motors NIB that have not been sold. Evinrude and Johnson/ Bombardier actually dropped thier 4 stroke models when they got the high tech 2 stroke models to pass the emissions and work. Lotus engineering and Bombarider finally fixed the Ficht technology that caused these American companies to go bankrupt. Canadian dollars and British engineering brought them back to life.


I prefer Yamaha myself. BTW both Yamaha and Honda make a large selection of diesel powered outboards that are unfortunetly not sold here in the USA. The diesels sip fuel and are a perfect match for marine use.

yovinny
April 17, 2008, 05:22
Originally posted by leek
The emissions law went into effect 2006 for outboard motors and snowmobiles. The engines today are either high tech 2 strokes or 4 -strokes that meet these laws. There are still pre 2006 motor 2- strokes that are being sold today. They made a bunch of them before the deadline but now they are 2+ yr old motors NIB that have not been sold.


I think the 90hp that comes "standard" with the boat is one of these older 2-stroke engines, because I cant seem to find any reference to it on the current Mercury website.

Not that an older model would bother me, as long as it's decent.
Upgrading to the newer oil injected "optimax" add's an almost 2 grand premium, stepping up to 4-stroke a 3 grand one.
Money I'd rather not spend unless I had too, and money that put's me over my self-imposed $15,000. budget.

My old 1983 (?) 75hp 2-stroke Evinrude was a decent motor and ran for 20 years without major work, though spare plugs needed to be carried at all times and changed at the drop of a hat.
Unfortunately, I needed to sell (basically give away) that boat 5-6 years ago, when I had to move, down-size and settle up from the divorce.
I've been boatless since and am finally just getting to the point financially where I can start looking for another.

I guess I could look at used boats too, but I hate to end up with somebody elses headache. I'd prefer to buy new and take good care of it, as it's probably the last boat I'll ever own.

Thanks for all the input.
Cheers, YV

fishawk
April 17, 2008, 09:31
I would look at the yamaha four stroke see what they have / I have a 115 jet and a 8 horse kicker both have had a lot of use and survived . I have heard that 2 strokes are not going to made after a certain time and everthing will be going four stroke .

gman
April 17, 2008, 11:10
There is no law or regulation outlawing 2-stroke motors. It is a myth. EPA set some standards, and the companies met them.

Evinrude wasn't the only company to have problems with the direct injection. Merc came out with theirs and were blowing engines left and right. Evinrude has it down pat now.

I own a Johnson 175hp 2-stroker, carburetted. Runs like a champ. 4-strokes are heavy, need more maintenance, and are quite a bit slower. The E-tec is the way to go if you stick with 2-stroke. You can even have it tuned to run 100:1 instead of 50:1. I think the dealer wants you to get into 4-strokes so they can rape you on maintenance. Nothing to maintain on a 2-stroke.

WJ-Polish Guy
April 17, 2008, 11:57
Originally posted by NoNotAgain
.....
2 stroke engines make more hp per liter of engine size due the lighter internals and not having an intake valve but operate at higher rpm’s verses 4 strokes.
...

Well do not get it wrong way but your understandin of operation of 2 stroke engine is incorrect.

Two stroke produces more power because work stroke is twice frequent compared to 4stroke.
(F.e. single cylinder 2stroke produces power every turn of the crank, while 4stroke every two crank revolution.)

In theory 2stroke should give exactly 200% of same cc size 4stroke. Unfortunately there is a problem with fully charging cylinder with fuel/air mixture when charging and exhaust strokes are not clearly separated.
Byproduct of attempting to best charge cylinder is escaping of some fuel mixture with exhaust.

I would get quality 4stroke if my budget allowed, so I do not have to deal with the stink of partialy burned fuel and noise while I`m enjoying nature.

steve3320
April 17, 2008, 19:39
my dad purchased a an 80hp Yamaha 4 stroke about 2 years ago, it was 2 years old at the time ---- change the oil/filter once a season and you're good to go. I'm not sure what all of the "maintenance" everyone is referring to -- it's fuel injected, sure it has more parts than a 2 stroke, but it can sit for months in the winter and start right up without any problem -- when its idling you can stand over it and have normal conversation. uses less than 1/2 the amount of gas the of the 20 year old mercury 80hp it replaced (which was also a great motor). With gas at $4 bucks and higher around the water, do you want to pay more now, or more every weekend when you fill up?

denverdude
April 22, 2008, 12:07
I have an Evenrude 115 V-4 2 stroke on my 1989 pontoon boat. I change the plugs every year ($8 total), run TCW-3 2 stroke oil in it, ( I usually pick up 4-5 callons at Bass Pro Shop in February when it is on sale for $10/gal) and that is it.

I replaced the starter on it last year ($100), and put a new power pack on it two years ago ($75).

My only complaint is that if I don't start it for a month or so it is very smokey for about a minute when it starts.

I am sold on 2 strokes. Lighter, cheaper, easier to maintain, proven. A buddy of mine just spent an extra $4,800 for a 4 stroke on his bass boat. He justified it in gas savings!!! at 35% increase in fuel economy, gas at $4.00 a gallon, 2 gallons an hour savings (VEEEERY high estimate!!!!), and running his boat 100 hours a year (which is a ton).....the 4 stroke will pay for itself on gas alone in 12 years!!!!!!

Marketing works because stupid people can't do math.

ggiilliiee
April 22, 2008, 12:42
working on banning 2 strokes out here because of the pristine lakes .....to polluting ...they are a dime a dozen ....smart folk wont buy 2 stroke here ..for the above reason ....but give me an old "white"merc 20 hp 2cycle..anyday

WJ-Polish Guy
April 22, 2008, 13:29
Originally posted by denverdude
....spent an extra $4,800 for a 4 stroke on his bass boat. He justified it in gas savings!!! at 35% increase in fuel economy, gas at $4.00 a gallon, 2 gallons an hour savings (VEEEERY high estimate!!!!), and running his boat 100 hours a year (which is a ton).....the 4 stroke will pay for itself on gas alone in 12 years!!!!!!

Marketing works because stupid people can't do math.

Dude you have problem with basic multiplication and division, yet YOU call other people math stupid?:D

Given YOUR data and assuming no time value of money engine upgrade will pay for itself in 6 years. I would say it is resonable given nontangible benefits of the upgrade.

MyTFAL
April 23, 2008, 23:55
In reality dealerships make the same percentage on either 2 or 4 strokes, the higher sale price may mean a few hundred bucks more but the actual percentage stays the same. I work at a large boat dealership (yamaha) the 2- strokes of ALL manufacturers spend more time in the shop than 4-stroke counterparts, of course individual results will vary. Think of it this way, if the largest engine builders in the world (automobile industry) could build a 2-stroke that out performed,outlasted and was more effcient than a four stroke motor every car in the world would have a 2-stroke in it.

WJ-Polish Guy
April 24, 2008, 07:51
Originally posted by MyTFAL
In reality dealerships make the same percentage on either 2 or 4 strokes, the higher sale price may mean a few hundred bucks more but the actual percentage stays the same. I work at a large boat dealership (yamaha) the 2- strokes of ALL manufacturers spend more time in the shop than 4-stroke counterparts, of course individual results will vary. Think of it this way, if the largest engine builders in the world (automobile industry) could build a 2-stroke that out performed,outlasted and was more effcient than a four stroke motor every car in the world would have a 2-stroke in it.

I think you know what you are saying, yet factory pricing of 4stroke is a result of marketing calculation not production cost difference. Mass producing 4strokes is not really that much more expensive.

What kills 2strokes in cars is emission. They did produced some advanced 2 strokes in Australia some time ago if I recall, but they never fixed emissions.