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StarPD
April 13, 2006, 13:57
I've been advised that cellular phone service providers are REQUIRING exchange of older non-GPS enabled cell phones for newer ones which have GPS capability as standard. The so-called federal government has, according to providers, mandated such exchange, and eventually, non-GPS phones will be unable to function absent the ability to reveal both current and past locations.

While both the government and providers insist that such GPS tracking of phones will only be used for "911", or "emergency" phone calls, I am cognizant of the routine progression of events that accompany every government program and policy I have ever heard of. Social Security numbers that were "SUPPOSED" to be used ONLY for Social Security purposes, and even were prohibited by law for any other use, are now REQUIRED by both government and other public activities, including most businesses. Try getting a bank account without providing your SS#. Try buying a car from a dealer without one, or registering a car without divulging your SS#.

The so-called "USAPATRIOT Act" and equally misnamed "Homeland Defense Act" WILL be used to track ANYONE the government decides meets their criteria of "terrorist". The OFFICIAL description of "terrorist" includes anyone who has ever said anything derogatory about the government or any of its agencies or employees. A number of cases have already been reported in the press wherein other than terrorists have been "caught" using the provisions of the odious aforementioned acts. Can you say "police state", boys and girls?

Does anyone know of any way to defeat such cell phone GPS capability, and enable it only on demand by the user? While few if any of us actually have anything to hide from the feds, on principle, such monitoring of citizens is against everything America is SUPPOSED to stand for. Yet, for true emergencies, we might WANT officials to be able to find us.

So, that means we need the ability to toggle on and off the GPS tracking "feature" in newer cell phones. I suspect that the GPS "feature is software driven, and therefore susceptible to modification by a RKI.

Surely, someone in our great FAL community has the know-how to accomplish this.

Suggestions, anyone?

Muggzy
April 13, 2006, 14:07
turn the phone off:tongue:





Well......sounded good to me:rofl:

Nick H.
April 13, 2006, 14:44
Sounds like we need a small low range GPS jammer. Something about the same size as a cell phone. Simply turn it on and have it in your pocket and it will jamm the GPS without hindering cell phone reception.

If and when the government gets far enough out of hand that it will make a difference if they know where law abiding citizens are, we are in SHTF times anyway. If Adolf Hitler's evil nephew gets elected as president in 2008 and we have civil war in 2010, the resistance fighters won't dare use a cell phone anyway. Too many government types will be listening. They have the technology right now to program cruise missles to find the source of a radio signal and destroy it. With or without the GPS, your cell phone isn't a good thing to use if you are going against the government.

9thmoon
April 13, 2006, 14:54
Turning it off doesn't neccessarily prevent the signal from broadcasting and is inhibitive to the point of carrying a cell phone to use in the case of emergency.

Speaking in defense of the providers (I work in the industry): It really is a government mandate and fees are being assessed that will put providers out of business if they do not comply.

That doesn't make this requirement morally/socially right, but businesses are capitalist, obviously, and non-compliance fees are extremely bad for the bottom line. That's the reality of it. If anyone knows of a software-flash-hack way to disable it, I'd love to hear it. Even unofficially, I don't know of one.

ftierson
April 13, 2006, 15:03
Cell phones...?

What are those...?

(The simpliest solution).

Forrest

EdinKali
April 13, 2006, 15:33
Make a tinfoil hat for your cell phone. ;)

On a more serious note, if you don't want to be tracked you can take the battery out of your cell to disable tracking until someone comes out with a hack to disable it (don't worry, someone will figure it out, they always do).

W.E.G.
April 13, 2006, 16:05
You can turn off E911 tracking on most phones.

That way the GPS data is not continually broadcasted or sent to the phone company (or anybody else) except when you make a 911 call.

Remember though, even with non E911 phones, the phone company will ALWAYS have a record of the towers that receive your broadcast signal when you make a call. So, in any urban area, it will usually be possible to triangulate the location where you placed the call any time while the call is made, or after the call is made. GPS is not needed for triangulation.

Check your documentation that came with the phone, and that came with your cell phone service plan to confirm the details of your particular E911 status.


Breaker, breaker.....

TXscout
April 13, 2006, 22:28
You don't have to be on the phone/using the phone for transmissions......it is intermittently sending packets or burst transmission of data, including your imea/sim#, and other fun info, every "x" seconds to tell the towers that you are "registered and available for calls" (which, by the way allows easy triangulation by signal strength and distance, from several towers in the reception area--That is if not already sending gps packet data, i.e., your location).

You remember when you could hear a "number of clicking sounds"(more when you were further away from your home area) when calling a cell phone from another or a land line---That was the call transferring from tower/switch to tower/switch in your area or region, looking or searching for your phone in the network. You don't hear that anymore with these GSM/GPS phones---Why?

You essentially "sign on" with an encrypted burst transmission, from tower to tower now as you are moving---Your phone constantly transmits at given intervals when it is powered on. It's like a computer....your phone is online at a certain "address"/tower

:cool:

Enquiring Minds
April 13, 2006, 23:02
I can disable it in Nextel's iDEN phones... but I don't want the tewowists to find out how... we must track tewowists... :rolleyes: ... we must NOT question why "Middle Eastern types" are in CONUS to begin with. :mad:

I can also use a Nextel phone to trigger an IED... oh, wait, the terrorists already figured out that one.

Might be better off getting a phone via fake ID, or credit card owned by an offshore corp/trust you setup... or a cash phone from the Latino bodega...

Agree with StarPD: a "wascally tewowist" is whomever the closest "special agent" with a Napleon Complex SAYS is a terrorist... EBR owners... chick who dissed him at the deli... Constitutionalists... remember, the sokker moms said there's no need to bother a judge to get a PATRIOT warrant.

Of course the very best policy in this regard is to just start shooting the involved FEDGOD employees in the knees... from a distance... lone wolf/small cell tactics... might catch on nationwide... if they're afraid to come to work, they can't track you. Maybe blow up a few unoccupied cars in the employee parking lot. Freaks 'em out. Every bit helps. Those immoral enough to grasp for power never stop until the pain is too great, or you kill them.


PS: Best case (and it's never the best case), this is the Nanny State taken to extremes. Also consider that it gives vulnerable women a false sense of security, when in fact they should be taking defensive handgun training and going CCW.

izaakb
April 13, 2006, 23:29
There is no "federal law" that is mandating that old phones be "turned in."

Cell phone companies ARE mandated to ONLY sell new phones with GPS in order to comply with E911 laws, but you can continue to use any phone that is compatible with your phone service provided your provider allows it.

If you use a GSM service (i.e. Cingular or Tmobile) you don't even have to "ask" to switch phones, you just take your SIM chip out and put it in your new phone.

I've never once had to go to my provider to swap my phone -- I can buy an unlocked phone off ebay and make calls on it 2 minutes after I receive it.

The "federal law" rumor is just stupid customer service ppl at your phone company either trying to be "smart" or just misinterpreting it --- OR they are told to tell you that so you have to buy their new phone.

Switch to a GSM provider and buy your own phone. I've never bought a phone from my provider. Not one. I have a GSM phone in the closet from 7 years ago and it will work fine if I charge the darn thing.

iz

rotty
April 13, 2006, 23:36
take the battery out when not in use

ratas calientes
April 14, 2006, 00:07
Originally posted by W.E.G.
You can turn off E911 tracking on most phones.

That way the GPS data is not continually broadcasted or sent to the phone company (or anybody else) except when you make a 911 call.

Remember though, even with non E911 phones, the phone company will ALWAYS have a record of the towers that receive your broadcast signal when you make a call. So, in any urban area, it will usually be possible to triangulate the location where you placed the call any time while the call is made, or after the call is made. GPS is not needed for triangulation.
. . .
How does one triangualate when the signal is only received at one cell tower? The only information that is known is the cell location of the caller, nothing more. http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif

izaakb
April 14, 2006, 00:13
Originally posted by ratas calientes

How does one triangualate when the signal is only received at one cell tower? The only information that is known is the cell location of the caller, nothing more. http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif

No, that's incorrect. The signal is received at ANY tower in range, but your phone will "pick" the one that has the strongest signal. Your phone is constantly sending out a "search" broadcast looking for closer (i.e. more powerful) signals and the towers reply, then your phone gauges the relative strength of each signal. Most phones do this once per 3 seconds.

You can have 4-5 towers that can "see" your phone at a time. Triangulation is a simple issue of calculating signal strength over time and using a road map.

Some versions of CDMA (WCDMA?) theoretically allow you to use multiple towers simultaneously -- developed for use by the IDF, go figure.

justashooter
April 14, 2006, 00:33
here's what'cha do. i saw this in a spy movie, once. it's gotta work.

when the men in black are hot on your tail, and you are running for your life, place a call to the head bad guy in the secret government office (for which you incidently have the phone number) and tell him to go f@#k himself. he will immediately prioritize government resources involving military satelites and helicopters to triangulate on your position and arrange for a guy in a ninja suit and balaclava to neutralise you from said helicopter with an HK sniper rifle that shoots ice bullets, so there is no ballistic evidence to demonstrate the nefarious practices of certain unnamed government agencies and personalities, the which particularly don't like being told to "F$%k off.

of course, you should leave the line open, so that they can continue to track your location as you run through city backstreets and into a lowrise projects housing block. upon reaching the foulest part of the complex, run up the staris to the 4th floor, with multiple assistant ninjas in hot pursuit, break in the door of an apartment in which lives an elderly black woman, her seven grandkids, and sometimes her crack whore daughter. race past their stunned faces into the bathroom, and flush your phone down the toilet. as it falls down the stack-pipe and into the sewer, the global tracking satelite will redirect aforementioned hot pursuit ninjas into the nearest manhole, while some pasty guys in an underground bunker inside the pentagon complex wonder in amazement at your ability to enter the naton's filthiest sewer system on you break for the sea.

of course the ninjas will run with AR15 cheezegrater mounted flashlights blazing to a canted, rusty gate at the illegal sewer outflow into the chesapeake bay and glare in frustration at the fantail of a departing russian freighter, upon which stands an unsuspecting russian sailor. aligning their battle sights and laserpointers on the poor soul's chest, the uber-ninjas will cut loose with full automatic bursts of astounding precision at an estimated 1100 yards, and seperate ivan's head from his chest, causing it to fall into the sea, where it is devoured by the ever-present and ever-hungry sharks, thus preventing said uber-agents from ever conclusively identifying your fallen comrade as a drunken seaman, rather than your tactical phone using self.

meanwhile, you will be hiding in the back bedroom of said grandmother's apartment, negotiating the price of a blow-job with her crack whore daughter.

now see, wasn't that easy.

9thmoon
April 14, 2006, 15:32
[i]
Also consider that it gives vulnerable women a false sense of security, when in fact they should be taking defensive handgun training and going CCW. [/B]

This is a good point. An ex-friend is a 911 dispatch operator; I remember her telling me about having to bear the terrible guilt and agony of helplessness when she gets one of those calls with a woman screaming, a man yelling obscenities, and sounds of violence - and not being able to track the call because it's a cell. The vulnerable woman is counting on the police to come and rescue her, but they won't be able to.

Unfortunately the lesson MOST folks take away from this isn't to make the woman less vulnerable; it's to make the cell phones better at tracking. I wonder how many women who've been in that situation are vehemently anti-gun?

ftierson
April 14, 2006, 21:11
Originally posted by 9thmoon
This is a good point. An ex-friend is a 911 dispatch operator; I remember her telling me about having to bear the terrible guilt and agony of helplessness when she gets one of those calls with a woman screaming, a man yelling obscenities, and sounds of violence - and not being able to track the call because it's a cell. The vulnerable woman is counting on the police to come and rescue her, but they won't be able to.

Unfortunately the lesson MOST folks take away from this isn't to make the woman less vulnerable; it's to make the cell phones better at tracking. I wonder how many women who've been in that situation are vehemently anti-gun?

Yes, I wonder...

Then again, we probably don't have to wonder...

After all, for the last forty years women have been told by government, police, and even feminist groups, that whistles and cell phones are the appropriate response to assault, not firearms...

Is it any great surprise that most have bought it...?

Forrest

gunnut1
April 14, 2006, 21:42
justashooter,

That is great ROFLMMFAO!!!!!!!


Guys, you don't want be tracked, the answer is very simple. DON'T CARRY A PHONE!!!! DUH!


Who the hell cares? Loosen the tin foil hats guys. It ain't that big of a deal.
The phone will be tracked by the GPS satellite constellation, NOT the towers.

I have been playing with this technology for years in my ham radio hobby. Too long to explain here.

Has anyone started to take the strips out of the paper money? I read on the internet that they are miniature radio transmitters. :rolleyes:

ftierson
April 14, 2006, 21:52
Originally posted by gunnut1
justashooter,

That is great ROFLMMFAO!!!!!!!


Guys, you don't want be tracked, the answer is very simple. DON'T CARRY A PHONE!!!! DUH!


Who the hell cares? Loosen the tin foil hats guys. It ain't that big of a deal.
The phone will be tracked by the GPS satellite constellation, NOT the towers.

I have been playing with this technology for years in my ham radio hobby. Too long to explain here.

Has anyone started to take the strips out of the paper money? I read on the internet that they are miniature radio transmitters. :rolleyes:

I didn't know that...

Now I'll have to throw all my money away. Oh, wait, I already do that... It's called buying gun crap...:)

By the way, does 411man know about the strips in paper money being transmitters...?

Forrest

gunnut1
April 14, 2006, 21:58
They can have my non GPS cell phone when they pry it off of my cold, dead ear!

MOLON LABE!

Survey Punk
April 14, 2006, 22:11
OOOPS!

I was going to post, but my phone's ringin'

OK...Yea. Buy!...What?

DAMN! Somebody wake me when the first shot's fired.

JB

16R40
April 14, 2006, 23:14
put your cell phone in the microwave.........that should do the trick on disabling the GPS, either that or throw it away and don't have one......course after you microwave the thing, you'll end up throwing it away, so your problem with the GPS will be eliminated, and you can go on to bigger and better paranoid worries, like those damn antennas in the new money :D

gunnut1
April 15, 2006, 06:19
So assuming that half of the US population has cell phones, what kind of super computer will be need to keep up with everyone that is being tracked? The population of the US is 295, 734, 134. Assuming half, 147, 867, 067
are being tracked. Now assuming that the phone sends out a packet every 10 minutes. That's 1,478,670,670 packets every 10 minutes. That would be 8,872,024,020 per hour. Equating to: 532,321,441,129 every day.

Do we have a computer that can handle that kind of information? Maybe be, I don't know!

So like I said, who cares?

Be sure and not get a grocery store savers card either. Someone will know how many loaves of bread you buy a week!

9thmoon
April 15, 2006, 11:26
Originally posted by gunnut1
So assuming that half of the US population has cell phones, what kind of super computer will be need to keep up with everyone that is being tracked?

Each carrier is responsible for tracking their own customers on their own network (and any guests on their network, for example when you have a plan that lets you "roam" through different companies' networks). I assure you we have the computer power; I used to do it for a living.

Be sure and not get a grocery store savers card either. Someone will know how many loaves of bread you buy a week!

Me and my friends swap cards around whenever we get together for dinner, maybe every couple months. Mine's signed up under a false name, anyhow. ;)

gunnut1
April 15, 2006, 15:59
Each carrier is responsible for tracking their own customers on their own network (and any guests on their network, for example when you have a plan that lets you "roam" through different companies' networks). I assure you we have the computer power; I used to do it for a living.


OMG!!!!:uhoh: You mean that the phone company knows which tower I am on and where I am???? Holy sheep defecation Batman! You mean my cell TELEPHONE is nothing more than a RADIO TRANSMITTER?

I just wish they would get towers in more of the rual areas!

ratas calientes
April 15, 2006, 17:34
Originally posted by izaakb


No, that's incorrect. The signal is received at ANY tower in range, but your phone will "pick" the one that has the strongest signal. Your phone is constantly sending out a "search" broadcast looking for closer (i.e. more powerful) signals and the towers reply, then your phone gauges the relative strength of each signal. Most phones do this once per 3 seconds.

You can have 4-5 towers that can "see" your phone at a time. Triangulation is a simple issue of calculating signal strength over time and using a road map.

Some versions of CDMA (WCDMA?) theoretically allow you to use multiple towers simultaneously -- developed for use by the IDF, go figure.
Um, yeah, okay. I really doubt that it is such a simple issue, and I doubt it has ever been done successfully. Signal strength can vary given many factors, such as the phone model, antenna, how the person is holding it (antenna polarization), are they inside a house, in a car, outside, over a hill, blocked by trees, terrain, etc. Not to mention the sensitivity of each and every cell tower receiver, and its relative location. I really doubt anyone can get any reasonable tracking information that way. Plus I wonder if the system is even set up to provide this information on a timely basis to allow for locating the caller.

Has this method ever been demonstrated? And done in a urban environment?

Oh well . . . . I don't own a cell phone anyway.

Hey - this reminds me - you ever see the movie The President's Analyst? http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif

gunnut1
April 15, 2006, 18:10
Determining a precise, within the limits for the GPS constellation, is easy. The phone receives it's location from the GPS birds, that position is transmitted to the tower. The tower can then do what ever the tower does to gather that information. Not hard at all.


Hams use a program called APRS. Automatic Position Reporting System. We can set our radios up using a piece of gear called a TNC and then tie the GPS, TNC and radio together. Anyone who has the capability to receive our digital position packets can determine our position.

Check out this web site. All of the letters and numbers you see popping up are Hams who have APRS running on the rigs.



aprs.net (http://www.aprs.net/)

There is no mystery to the technology. Receive the GPS coordinates, retransmit them and go from there. No big deal.

izaakb
April 15, 2006, 18:27
Originally posted by ratas calientes
Um, yeah, okay. I really doubt that it is such a simple issue, and I doubt it has ever been done successfully. Signal strength can vary given many factors, such as the phone model, antenna, how the person is holding it (antenna polarization), are they inside a house, in a car, outside, over a hill, blocked by trees, terrain, etc. Not to mention the sensitivity of each and every cell tower receiver, and its relative location. I really doubt anyone can get any reasonable tracking information that way. Plus I wonder if the system is even set up to provide this information on a timely basis to allow for locating the caller.

Has this method ever been demonstrated? And done in a urban environment? http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif

Yes it has been demonstrated. The guy who was recently arrested for the murder of Imette St Guillen (look it up in news) was triangulated by the logs on the towers and placed at the scene where her body was found. It was done after the fact, not before though. They did the tracing almost a week later when they identified him as a suspect, which tells me that the tower info is logged and kept for at least a week.

Has it been done actively? It would not be hard, but you would have to have ID'ed the person's device and IMEI (phone serial #). Every phone has a unique network ID called an IMEI and that can be tracked as it is being used or traveling. All providers have the ability to tag an IMEI or GSM number so that they are notified when it hits a new tower or when its broadcast is sent.

There were several reports of Al Qaeda being snuffed after being tracked using this method. They were even using GSM phones and changing the phone (swapping the SIM card) not realizing that with GSM the card ID is sent along with the IMEI.

9thmoon
April 15, 2006, 19:00
Originally posted by izaakb
Has it been done actively? It would not be hard, but you would have to have ID'ed the person's device and IMEI (phone serial #). Every phone has a unique network ID called an IMEI and that can be tracked as it is being used or traveling. All providers have the ability to tag an IMEI or GSM number so that they are notified when it hits a new tower or when its broadcast is sent.

Both wireless providers I've worked for have had a team of people on call 24 hours/365 days for Law Enforcement's benefit to provide this kind of tracking. It helps with kidnappings, lost hikers and skiiers, etc.

IMEI and SIM card numbers are unique to GSM carriers (such as T-Mobile and Cingular). CDMA carriers (such as Verizon) have MISDNs which are embedded in the phone and can be cloned.

ratas calientes
April 15, 2006, 21:36
Originally posted by izaakb
Yes it has been demonstrated. . . .
Interesting.

But, the important question still is, have you, or others here, ever seen the movie The President's Analyst ? It is relative to the discussion here. http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif

izaakb
April 16, 2006, 09:38
Originally posted by ratas calientes
Interesting.

But, the important question still is, have you, or others here, ever seen the movie The President's Analyst ? It is relative to the discussion here. http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif


no never saw it. is it fiction or a docu? got a link?

Farmer from Hell
April 17, 2006, 10:49
Originally posted by gunnut1
Be sure and not get a grocery store savers card either. Someone will know how many loaves of bread you buy a week!

Actually I dont use mine for this kind of reason.

I was reading an article in Pop Mechanics a year or two ago about privacy and they had a part about a guy who slipped on a wet floor in a store and hurt himself. The store looked up his buying records from his discount card and saw that he bought beer there in the past and tried to say he was drunk when he slipped based on his buying habits.

This is the kind of stuff that will come back to bite you in the ass at the worst possible time.

I use cash money more and more these days.

As far as cell phones go just get the pay as you go kind. Anonymous as you can get in these present times. The other alternative is to get a pager and only turn on the cell to return pages and make calls.

FfH

ratas calientes
April 17, 2006, 10:52
Originally posted by izaakb
no never saw it. is it fiction or a docu? got a link?
I have seen it a few times on TV. Made in 1967. Stars James Coburn. It is a comedy / thriller / satire. Lots of funny gags, other goofy stuff. Typical 60s style movie. You should be able to find in on VHS or DVD, but it may be a little esoteric for the typical Blockbuster.

Basic plot - the President of the US decides that he needs his own personal psychiatrist - just like everyone in the 60s. James Coburn plays the "psychrink." The President needs to see him more and more, day and night, and it interrupts is personal love life. Finally, Coburn reaches the point where he knows too much, and the "FBI" is trying to kill him. One gag is that all of the "FBI" guys wear the same dark grey suit, they carry .44 magnums, they are all about 5 foot tall, so they all have the "short man syndrome."

If you find it, let me know what you think. http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif

izaakb
April 17, 2006, 12:59
Originally posted by Farmer from Hell
As far as cell phones go just get the pay as you go kind. Anonymous as you can get in these present times. The other alternative is to get a pager and only turn on the cell to return pages and make calls.

FfH

Modern pagers are trackable in the same way that cell phones are. All modern pagers use cell-type relay services (usually over AMPS).

Older type pagers used the CAPCODE radio signals. You'd have to find one of the old type.

Farmer from Hell
April 18, 2006, 20:50
Originally posted by izaakb


Modern pagers are trackable in the same way that cell phones are. All modern pagers use cell-type relay services (usually over AMPS).

Older type pagers used the CAPCODE radio signals. You'd have to find one of the old type.

Are you talking about the ones that you can two way text message or the ones that just display entered number codes? This is news to me.

If your talking about all of them then hell that would make a cheap lojack device to stash in a gun case. Ya know someone breaks in and walks of with a boom stick. Crook would most likely load it in a readily available case and not walk down the street with it out in the open. An old C&R gun laying out in the open might be good bait. Just change out the AA battery every couple months like the smoke detectors.

FfH