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Th0r
September 03, 2005, 00:14
Given what has happened in New Orleans, the media company I work for has raised the question of security. My boss is currently helpinig one of our sister papers in the rough parts of Miss, and says they now need armed gaurds at the entrances.

Our building is located near the higher crime areas of town and during a meeting, the question of armed security for crisis situations was raised. Now I wasn't present for the meeting, but that didn't keep 3 or 4 people from asking "What about Thor?"

I personaly wouldn't mind. I know this building inside and out. It would be reletivly easy to secure with one other person. I'm just unsure of the legality of a regular employee carrying an open weapon around when not in an actual security position.

Now concealed carry is one thing, but in the event of looters gone mad, they prefer a visual deterent a bit more formidable then a rent-a-cop. Their idea is two guards stationed on the roof openly armed with rifles. From there we could easily monitor all sides of the building. Legal?

My idea was a bit more subtle. Me and my partner watching the cameras. If we see trouble or maybe a group of people aproaching, we'll just position ourselves in view, but still inside the building (big sliding glass doors). Legal?

jaykden
September 03, 2005, 00:39
the difference between standing on the roof with a rifel and sitting behind the screens, would have to depend on the situation. a low level threat (protesting, ppl walking in the streets in bunches) situation would be best monitored my cameras, as not to make things worse. but a high level threat (active looting, lack of LEOs and authority, active vandalism/ arson) would be best monitored from the roof with rifles (also preferably body armor, as everyone and their brother would have a clear shot at ya from below). it seems to me also if there is a need to have guys w/ guns on the roof, that the SIT would warrant the entrance being barricaded and guarded with armed personnel, alot of good standing on the roof would be if someone ran in or snuck past the area you're watching, and went to town inside while you're still watching the street from up top. i suppose it depends in where you are, but it shouldn't be illegal to have weapons present while on a private building, you obviously wouldn't be a looter or someone activly on the offensive. it may not be PC, but niether is the raping, looting, murdering and starving going on down in NO. if you end up on a roof with a rifle, WATCH OUT, all it would take is a guy in a dark alley behind a dumpster with a rifle of his own to make you have a real bad day real quick. wear body armor UNDER a shirt so they won't aim for the head on purpose. just my .02

raeldridge
September 03, 2005, 13:05
providing security for yourself is an easy thing, no one can ever deny, even legally your right to self defense. (well, some misguided areas, but that's another story!)

when you get into something like this, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

are you *sure* you want to get into this?

I'd recommend getting someone else to be the stand-out-front-and-be-the-looter's-bullet-magnet and keep your position with your knowledge of the building/occupants as backup. much, much better tactically for several reasons. most important, while the main security can take care of security, you can act as liaison, command-an-control, etc.

second, I would insist on your company coming up with a written MOU, memo of understanding of what exactly what it is you're to do for 'security', what you're not supposed to do, what you're liable for and what the company will do to protect you if any of the ugly legal stuff comes up. both the company's representative and yourself will sign off on this. if TSHTF and the world ends, no biggie. if the TSHTF and a number of bodies have to be drug out of the lobby/waiting room/parking lot, there may be questions asked later. //grin//

let us know how it works out. I'm sure there's a number of companies that are thinking about this.

MistWolf
September 03, 2005, 14:17
Legal? I don't know. May be an old worn out saw, but consult with your lawyer about the legalities and liablities of your plan

Eclipse
September 03, 2005, 14:19
I would want some type of insurance waiver from the company - releasing you from all liability in the event of an incident.

the gman
September 04, 2005, 01:26
A few points for you to consider:
1. Legal Liability, both for you & the company. Will they pay your legal bills should you be sued? Will they fire your ass if you happen into a bad situation/make the wrong decision & slot the wrong (or even the right) guys?

2. Medical. Will the company pay for extended medical/life insurance for you if you are wounded/killed whilst carrying out these duties?

3. Training. What exactly is your skill level in this kind of situation? Do you have prior military/LEO training or not? Attended any courses in threat management/crisis resolution/personal protection/static security?

4. Manpower. 2 of you for a building 24/7 for a minimum period of 2 or 3 weeks is NOT going to cut it. You will need a MINIMUM of 3 guys per 12 hr shift to allow for meals/piss/rest breaks. That is if you are serious about this. You will also need 2 complete shifts to allow for rest & recuperation so a total of 12 guys or kiss goodbye to any kind of home life & look forward to getting bummed out with a security gig REAL quick.......

5. Equipment. What kit do you have? Night vis/level IV body armour/bino's/spotting scopes/ overhead protection/secure comms/ the list is endless. Will the company sign off on you using your own weapons/ammo? Would you want to given that any weapon used in an incident would most likely be taken for evidence by the cops & you might never see it again?

I ain't trying to piss on yer bonfire but if you think that playing look out on the top of a building with yer FAL would be good fun, FORGET it. I've been there & done that & it gets very old, very fast. Done it as a grunt & as a team commander, either way sucks.

In my opinion, DON'T get involved. Picture the scene: 18 months after you have done your bit to defend the COMPANY building, you are in a nice, quiet, calm court room, far from the heady & dangerous days of today & the plantiff (or the ADA) is saying " so Mr Thor, you volunteered to play 'Rambo' on top of your company's building with your own deadly assault rifle, loaded with dum dum bullets, even tho' you had no prior training for such a role nor did you undertake any. You had spent over 80 hours on that roof with insufficent rest & one night, you thought you saw my client's relative doing something illegal, even tho' you had no night vision equipment to confirm that & you shot him dead. Not only that, but your own company has fired you & disavowed any knowledge or responsibility for your actions, would that be a fair summary of what happened?"

You go to jail/lose everythin you own to pay the judgement, your family lose you & kiss your guns & your life goodbye. Is it worth it? NOPE. Leave that kind of job to the professionals, if your company won't or can't afford to employ such people, then they sure as shit won't have 2 minutes thought about tossing your arse to the wolves to save themselves a massive lawsuit.

I bet there is no way on God's green earth that THEIR insurance company would sign off on this so what does that tell ya? Step right away from this in double quick time or regret it later & for a hellva lot longer than you want to. PM me if you really want talk this over, that's my best advice & it's meant with your very best interest at heart.:beer:

Plain George
September 04, 2005, 01:35
If you need protection, hire a PROFESSIONAL security company.
They should be trained and bonded to provide what is needed.
YOU will get into major trouble with law suits if things go badly,.
and you will LOSE because you do not have the proper training,
certification etc blah blah blah.
as a retired LEO I think I speak the truth.

photomike
September 04, 2005, 20:30
hire off-duty cops /sheriff's?

Lots of them pull security jobs to make extra $$$$.

plus they also know the local rules and regs.

Mike

familyman357
September 05, 2005, 21:14
ABSOLUTELY NO F****** WAY WOULD I DO THAT!

Are you serious? You're willing to make yourself a target and quite possibly get killed for a company?!

You wrote:
"....we'll just position ourselves in view, but still inside the building (big sliding glass doors)."

Excellent idea. As a looter, I like to know who I need to kill first.

And if you don't get killed, do you really believe that the company will expend massive amounts of money to defend you should you need to use force? My guess is that they would be right behind you; way, way, waaaay behind you ("Hey! Where'd everybody go?")

And so what if they do pay your legal and civil defenses.... and you lose (either one)? You're the one whose life is ruined.

I'm sure you're flattered that they consider you a person to look to for guidance if the S should ever HTF (I would be), but if they need armed security they can pay for it. And if they really feel it's necessary, they will.

the gman nailed it:
"....if your company won't or can't afford to employ such people, then they sure as shit won't have 2 minutes thought about tossing your arse to the wolves to save themselves a massive lawsuit."

Don't walk; run away from this idea.

Th0r
September 05, 2005, 22:53
It's not the property they are worried about, it's the employees. We have a full staff until we are forced out. I know almost everyone here, so It'd be more personal to me then business.

Much of what gman mentioned was what worried me mostly. As someone said, it is flattering, but I know it would be no fun. If I'm open carrying a rifle I might as well have a neon sign pointing at me, "SHOOT ME FIRST!"

I said no to alot.

I told them that, as a CWP holder, I'll do my duty as an armed citizen and protect the lives of those unable to, but I'm not gonna run around the building looking for trouble. The only extra I'll do for them is escort employees who need to leave the building...and keep some extra mags in my office of course.

W.E.G.
September 05, 2005, 23:04
Its a lousy deal. As well stated above.

Although, I will say I find it amusing, and I have a hard time not feeling REAL SMUG when the candyass folks who talk about how bad it is for anybody to have guns suddenly come whimpering when the reality of actual danger gets within smelling distance.

Oh won't you be my hero you brave man! Save us!

I'd have a REAL HARD time not looking at them and asking, "Where the hell is YOUR gun? You mean you don't have one? Now you expect me to protect you at my own expense? How stupid do I look?!!!"

Then tell 'em to go down to the hardware store and buy one now that they have suddenly decided it is convenient. The phone lines are down. So be sure to take cash. By the way, have you mentioned me in your will?

Plain George
September 05, 2005, 23:26
Let me explain to you...
IF they appoint YOU to provide security (or anyone else for that matter) then YOU take on the responsibility of providing that security..SO...if someone assaults me etc in the parking lot , guess who I SUE..? IT IS YOU... you didn't provide well enough for my security......
Either way your asre is hanging in the wind.
YOU my friend are not able, trained, or equipped to provide security for anyone.
WHAT authority do you have? NONE...you are not a sworn LEO. Any citizen will have just as much authority as you.. just cause you put on a "rent a cop" badge, it don't mean squat....

the gman
September 06, 2005, 02:01
Just a little off topic here but after all that has happened, some folks still don't get it.........:rolleyes:

Visited with wife's cousin today. Her hubby is a shooter but not real big on the smarts. He sees me carrying my S/S Colt Delta Elite (like it wasn't fcuking hard, it was right there on my belt!) & says "so were you scared as a kid that you feel you need to carry a gun?" WTF???:uhoh: :uhoh: :confused:

Normally, he's a nice enough guy, dumb but nice enough so I keep the peace & said "no, I just accept the responsibility of protecting me & mine, no matter what happens". I know it's lame but it was the best I could come up with at the time without losing my cool with this fcuking arsehole.

These are the kind of people who we are talking about, they think everything is rosy until the SHTF & then it's mass panic all round, I'm still stunned at his comment, I'm thinking like: WAKE UP YOU PRICK!!!! :mad: Don't know what else to say.....:sad: :sad:

TFA303
September 06, 2005, 12:20
I'll buck the trend.

Tell them you'll do it if they buy you a new FAL and two cases of Radway Green.


Tom

familyman357
September 06, 2005, 12:56
Originally posted by Th0r
I told them that, as a CWP holder, I'll do my duty as an armed citizen and protect the lives of those unable to, but I'm not gonna run around the building looking for trouble. The only extra I'll do for them is escort employees who need to leave the building...and keep some extra mags in my office of course.

Good response. However, I don't know of any CWP / CCW permit that places a "duty" on the holder to protect the lives of others (but I understand what you're saying).