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Old June 03, 2010, 09:19   #1
daschnoz
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Hodgdon vs Winchester vs IMR

The Yankee game got a bit boring last night, so I pulled out my Lyman 47 and 48 to do a bit of reading while they smoked Baltimore. In between home runs, I started wondering...

We all know that Hodgdon now owns the Winchester and IMR powder lines.

Hodgdon has confirmed that W231 and HP-38 are the same powder. The only difference between the 2 is the printing on the label (and the price - for some reason W231 is $2/lb more than HP-38). If you look at new reload data, it is the same for both powders including pressure and velocity.

This is where the wonder road lead me-
There are other powders across the 3 lines that are VERY close in burn rate:
- the 4895s
- the 4350s
- Benchmark and IMR 3031
- Varget and IMR 4064
- BL-C(2) and W748

How long until other similar burn rates begin to follow along the same line as W231/HP38?
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Old June 03, 2010, 10:17   #2
richbug
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Varget is actually an Aussie powder ADI 2208 IIRC. I think the other "Extreme" Hodgdon powders are ADI as well (4831, 4350, Etc).
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Old June 03, 2010, 11:47   #3
daschnoz
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Yes, but how long until they start packaging ADI 2208 as both Varget and IMR4064? (same for the 4895s, et al.)

That's what I am getting at...
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Old June 03, 2010, 19:25   #4
instr8
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As far as I know, it's only winchester and hodgdon that are the same powders. Here is what I have. There may be others. I think this is correct, but I haven't done any testing in a closed bomb to check it's validity, so proceed with caution if you decide to use this info. And don't forget that there is always those pesky lot-to-lot variations

H110 is the exact same powder as WW296
HP38 is the exact same powder as WW231
HS6 is the exact same powder as WW540
HS7 is the exact same powder as WW571
H414 is the exact same powder as WW760

Manufactured by St. Marks for both vendors.
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Old June 04, 2010, 08:17   #5
Tim Dreas
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H-4227 has been discontinued. New IMR-4227 was made in Canada is now made in Australia and is the same as old H-4227 but dyed black to keep old timers happy about the look of IMR-4227. Seriously. Old IMR-4198 was made in Canada but is now the same powder as H-4198 and is also made in Australia.

So now,

H-4227 - discontinued

IMR-4227 - replaced with old H-4227 dyed black

IMR-4198 is now the same exact powder as H-4198.

Older made in Canada IMR-4227 is the original IMR-4227 and different from current production.

H-4227 name has been dropped

Older made in Canada IMR-4198 is the original IMR-4198 and different from current production.

Current production IMR-4198 is the exact same powder as H-4198 which is also still sold.

Hodgdon stated that H-4227 didn't sell as well as IMR-4227 so the H-4227 name dropped. They claim old load data is safe for both powders so replaced old IMR-4227 with new IMR-4227 which is really the old H-4227 but dyed black to avoid complaints about the a change in color.

Hodgdon stated that both H-4198 and IMR-4198 were equally popular so both product names remain but since their load data is safe to interchange they are now both the exact same powder, made in the same factory in Australia and are not the older made Canada version of th IMR powder.

Hodgdon does own IMR Powders but doesn't own Winchester powders. Hodgdon is the distributor of Winchester Powders due to a deal between Hodgdon and Winchester.

Accurate Arms A-4064 was Czech-made but is now made at the IMR Powder plant in Canada. It is very similar to IMR-4320.
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Old June 09, 2010, 12:11   #6
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Pretty sure Varget is different than IMR 4064 I have used both and get much better results with Varget.
Vargets biggest asset IMHO is that it is not temperature sensitive, shoots the same POA in hot, warm and cold weather!

I love Varget! I had always been a IMR 4895 guy until I tried Varget!

I know if you go to the Hogden website they list Hogden, IMR and Winny powders.
Is there a gunpowder making facility in the USA?
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Old June 09, 2010, 14:44   #7
Tim Dreas
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Quote:
Originally posted by moses
Pretty sure Varget is different than IMR 4064 I have used both and get much better results with Varget.
Vargets biggest asset IMHO is that it is not temperature sensitive, shoots the same POA in hot, warm and cold weather!

I love Varget! I had always been a IMR 4895 guy until I tried Varget!

I know if you go to the Hogden website they list Hogden, IMR and Winny powders.
Is there a gunpowder making facility in the USA?
Hiodgdon, Winchester and Ramshot ball powders are made by General Dynamics which I belivve is in Florida. The Alliant powders were American-made "improved" Norma powders which were really Nobel powders. Then Norma improved their powers and now Alliant powders are Norma powders imported from Sweden. IMR moved their American plants to their Canadian plants. A few IMR powders are now made in Australia though. I think maybe only the ball powders are still made in USA. Alliant may still make some powders in USA though. Accurate powder is Czech and Canadian now.
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Old June 10, 2010, 04:21   #8
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Clear as mud!
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Old June 10, 2010, 06:14   #9
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Hodgdon = Winchester
HP38 = W231
H110 = W296
HS6 = W540 (discontinued)
HS7 (discontinued) = W571 (discontinued)
H414 = W760
Note: H335 is NOT W748.


Hodgdon = ADI
Trail Boss = AS-25BP
Clays = AS-30N
HP38 = AP-50N
International = AS-50N
Universal = AP-70N
H4227 = AR2205
H4198 = AR2207
H322 = AR2219
Benchmark = BM2 (Benchmark2), AR-2206 (discontinued)
H4895 = AR2206H
Varget = AR2208
H4350 = AR2209
H4831 = AR2213
H4831sc = AR2213sc
H1000 = AR2217
Retumbo = AR2225
H50BMG = AR2218


IMR = ADI
IMR 8208-XBR = AR2210-V02


Ramshot = Winchester
Silhouette = WAP (discontinued)


Alliant = Norma
RL15 = N203


Alliant = Alliant
Power Pistol = Bullseye 84 (non-canister)
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Old June 10, 2010, 06:21   #10
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In the past weeks I have read that the IMR and Hodgdon line were starting to merge on some numbers. Even to the point where "colorants" were added to the greenish ADI powders to make them look like the older charcoal colored IMR powders. I can't find the article now.
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Old June 10, 2010, 17:45   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by richbug
In the past weeks I have read that the IMR and Hodgdon line were starting to merge on some numbers. Even to the point where "colorants" were added to the greenish ADI powders to make them look like the older charcoal colored IMR powders. I can't find the article now.
New IMR-4227 is old (Australian-made) H-4227 dyed black. The powder name H-4227 is no longer sold. New IMR-4198 is now Australian-made H-4198. Both 4198 names are still sold and I don't think IMR-4198 is dyed.
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Old June 14, 2010, 02:22   #12
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Originally posted by moses Is there a gunpowder making facility in the USA?
The St. Marks powder factory in Florida makes ball powders. They are owned by General Dynamics.

General Dynamics owns SNC of Canada & Santa Barbara of Spain.

Basically, Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester do not actually make any powder. They are distributors. If you go to St. Marks and ask for a specific sort of powder and commit to buy a very large amount, they will make it to your specifications. You just have to package it for resale. That's what Hodgdon does- they have a spec for powders, they buy it in bulk, assure the quality and consistency, and sell it to the reloading market.
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