BOLT HOLD-OPEN blues

[W.E.G.]

Indulge me in my rant about BOLT HOLD-OPEN problems.

Here is what I’m all wound-up about:

The last shot is fired from the magazine.
The MAGAZINE FOLLOWER over-rides the pin on the BHO.
(I’m referring to the pin that is supposed to catch on the titty part of the magazine follower, thereby lifting the BHO catch, and holding the bolt open on the last shot.)
This failure has the effect of locking the magazine in the rifle.
When this failure occurs, the mag-release catch will NOT release the mag.

Facing this joyous event, you now have two choices:
1. Break out the screwdriver, and remove the BHO/mag-catch screw, and remove the entire mag-catch assembly from the bottom of the receiver, and then remove the mag; or
2. Yell, "#!%*&#*!!!!!!", and while depressing the mag-catch, BASH the magazine free of the rifle with the heel of your hand.

I usually employ Method 2.

Maybe the Brits, had it right. Maybe ol’ Deudonne screwed the pooch on his BHO concept, and maybe it just makes better sense to forego the menace, and get on with the business of reloading and shooting without maddening BHO/magazine failures.

But, Wile E. Coyote is an American invention – not a British subject. And WEC “redoubles his efforts” – even when he has lost sight of his objective.

[W.E.G.]

OK, so your mag and BHO are all jammed-up.

You smack the bejeezus out of the magazine, and manage to clear the rifle.

Have a little look at your magazine follower now.

Yell #!%*&#*!!!!!! again.

[W.E.G.]

Another view

[W.E.G.]

Here is the offending BHO pin.

View looking from the underside of the rifle, up into the mag well.

[W.E.G.]

Same pin – slightly different angle

[vmtz]

Some of the CAI followers were to short to catch the BHO. You might have one of those.

Vince

[W.E.G.]

And one more view

[W.E.G.]

Now here is a pic of a nearly identical BHO device.

Note the shape of the “catch-pin.”

What’s up with the bevel shape?
Wouldn’t an un-beveled pin be less likely to carve your mag followers?

[W.E.G.]

Here is the crux of the problem.

We are looking from the top of the rifle down into the mag well.

The mag is installed.

The tittie on the mag follower has engaged the BHO-pin (just barely)

The BHO-shaft is extended ready to catch the bolt assembly in the open position.

I will also note that this is an ENTREPRISE metric receiver
(approximately 2002 manufacture date)

The gun is composed of an assortment of parts.
(not a complete gun from Entreprise)

[W.E.G.]

Another pic to show the tentative engagement.

This is that same mag with the scraped-up tittie that is slightly bent-tittied from being whupped-on by me.

[W.E.G.]

Here is the identical twin of the previous mag.

The tittie is relatively undamaged on this one. I haven’t had to beat it out of a rifle (yet).

The point of this picture is to show you the illusion that makes it seem like all FAL mag titties are bent to one side from the git-go.

Actually, the hump on the mag follower causes the follower to shift to one side of the mag when the mag is empty. This occurs because the hump strikes one of the feed lips. This impact causes the follower to shift to one side when the mag is empty. This does not help your odds of the mag catch-pin catching on the follower tittie.

[W.E.G.]

Here is another pic demonstrating the same point as just mentioned.

[W.E.G.]

For further reference, here is yet ANOTHER magazine.

This magazine was actually furnished with a factory Entreprise rifle.

It is my belief that this follower is a US-made part.

(This magazine too shows the tell-tale tittie-scrape from being beaten out of the rifle after a follower-override.)

[W.E.G.]

Note the slightly different shape/angle of the tittie on the US follower.

[W.E.G.]

The more “plump” shape of the tittie on the US follower makes for somewhat better engagement of the BHO pin.

[W.E.G.]

OK, now have a look at this.

(Ignore all the white specks – its just paper towel lint stuck on a freshly parked IMBEL receiver. I didn’t notice all the paper towel “lint” until I downloaded the pic from the camera.)

Look at THIS bolt hold-open pin.

It is NOT beveled like most of the others I have encountered
(Although, if you look at the pic at http://gunthings.com/holdopen.jpg you will see that the “Commonwealth” countries did use an “automatic” BHO device on some of their BHO gizmos – and the “Commonwealth” variety of automatic BHO does not seem to have the bevel as in most of the metric varieties I’ve seen.)

Looking up from the underside of the rifle, into the mag well.

[W.E.G.]

Note the very positive engagement of the BHO pin on the tittie.

Remember too, this is an IMBEL receiver.

Note that the BHO device is in the fully elevated position.

This is the same magazine that I showed you to start this
rant - you know, the one with the massively-gouged tittie.

[W.E.G.]

Observe in this pic that the non-tapered pin still has pretty good engagement.
But also be sure you see that the BHO is now in the LOWERED position.

Less engagement of the pin when it is in the lower position.

[W.E.G.]

OK.

So, maybe you are wondering what is my point.

Here it is:
1. I prefer the shape of the NON-TAPERED pin for catching the tittie on the mag follower.
2. I prefer the more “plump” shape of the magazine follower. Although that is probably a moot issue. For the most part, you are stuck with whatever mag-follower comes in the mag.
3. I prefer the fit of the IMBEL receiver over the Entreprise receiver.
4. When “overhauling” a BHO device, it is advisable to install a new pin, and cut it long. Then, remove only the amount of material from the end of the pin as is necessary to keep the pin from BINDING on the mag followers.
5. You want AS MUCH ENGAGEMENT ON THE TITTIE AS YOU CAN GET!


Don’t let a little nubbin’ of a rod keep you from getting tittie!

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by vmtz
Some of the CAI followers were to short to catch the BHO. You might have one of those.

Vince

The mags in the pics are not CAI in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

The buggered mag you see at the outset of the thread began its life in the US a as a brand new, all-foreign-parts mag. I'm pretty sure it came out of one of the 10-packs of "G-1" mags that I got from TAPCO back in the day.

I have no idea where Entreprise sourced their US followers. Although, the Entreprise mags are more "short-rod" friendly than the all-foreign-parts mag.

When it comes to the specs of the US parts, it appears that the Entreprise RECEIVER is put together in such a way that the ejector block sits a little too far to the rear.

[SrBenelli]

Originally posted by gary.jeter
3. I prefer the fit of the IMBEL receiver over the Entreprise receiver.
4.

I think this is more the "problem" (and solution). Even with a tapered pin, you can see a butt-load of BHO engagement using the Imbel receiver.

[fordtruck]

I have this exact same problem on my FAL that I built with an Entreprise receiver. I replaced the pin with a roll pin for a quick fix. The only problem is the pin catches on the top round in the magazine and normally pops it out as I insert the mag. I believe this might be the reason for the bevel in the pin. If I remember right, I have the most trouble when there is an odd number of rounds in the mag. This would place the top round on the right, I believe. Doesn't the pin have the bevel on the right side?

Also, I had this problem with the original followers and Falcon Arms followers.

This has been my only problem with this build. I must say it is frustrating to load a mag and have the top round pop out. I am going to try and get some round metal and make a new pin. I will put the bevel in it and see if that helps.

Anyone else have suggestions?

[Arby]

Originally posted by fordtruck
I have this exact same problem on my FAL that I built with an Entreprise receiver. I replaced the pin with a roll pin for a quick fix. The only problem is the pin catches on the top round in the magazine and normally pops it out as I insert the mag. I believe this might be the reason for the bevel in the pin.

This mirrors the experience and conclusions I drew regarding an Inch Entreprise receiver. The pin had to be tapered to avoid hitting rounds in the mag. I finally got the thing working for awhile, until the pin worked it's way out.

Now I am going to have to seriously consider Gary's contention about the receiver contributing to the problem. Food for thought.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by Arby
...finally got the thing working for awhile, until the pin worked it's way out.

What sort of pin did you use?
Roll pin?
Drill rod?
Old nail?



I should also mention that I busted an IMBEL BHO device clean in two right where the catch pin is inserted in the main shaft. I noticed that the IMBEL catch-pin is swolen in the middle where it sticks in the BHO shaft. Presumably, this causes it to be less likely to pop out of the shaft.

Here is a pic I took several years ago with a really crappy digital camera.
The pic is out-of-focus, and low-res.
But, if you look very closely, the broken-off part shows a little bulge in the center where the bulged catch-pin used to be lodged.
You can't see the pin worth a darn, but the pin is definitely bulged in the middle.

[W.E.G.]

Here's another pic of the busted BHO.

Maybe if you look real hard, you can kinda see the swollen center of the catch pin.

Sorry about the crappy pic.

[W.E.G.]

Here is a crude sketch of what I remember the catch-pin looked like.

The bulge was gently tapered on one side of the bulge, and kind of abruptly-tapered on the other side of the bulge.
Presumably, this shape facilitated fabrication of the device, by allowing the catch pin to be inserted with the gentle-taper side of the bulge leading the way.

[torquemada055]

I would never gouge a titty or use an abusive BHO on a titty, but hey, I'm just a wannabe redneck who likes titties alot..........

It did appear as the commonwealth BHO has a more positive lock and functional engagement with the forward edge of the mag follower.

[Arby]

Originally posted by gary.jeter


What sort of pin did you use?
Roll pin?
Drill rod?
Old nail?

Gary,

I used a roll pin. I got one with a tight fit, filed and ground on it until it seemed to work. At first, it would catch a round stacked on the right side of the mag and latch the bolt open at inappropriate times. I finally got it working just great, until it worked itself out of the shaft.

The inch bolt hold open has a stepped hole for the pin, with the larger orifice facing forward. I had filed on the pin to get some semblance of a smaller diameter to match the stepped hole in the shaft, but it didn't work. I guess I will eventually drill out the shaft so the hole is of uniform diameter, and then use some solid steel (rod or pin) and work on the angles of the pin until it performs properly (i.e., not as the Aussies & Brits intended it to perform).

I'm open to any suggestions as to how to fix it with minimal investment of labor.

[bykerhd]

The only one I've run into so far with the problem is on a Hesse receiver and belongs to a friend. A bit of tweaking on the mag follower on the problem mag seemed to cure it. For now. I'm pretty sure we did NOT beat that mag out. But, he wasn't shooting in competition either. I think it was a "WTF !". Yank once or twice and then it was handed to me to dissasemble.

[owlcreekok]

To ride along with byker's idea,,,, I note that the foriegn titty is wider at the base. When it is pressed aside (to starboard) by the follower hump contacting the port side mag lip, the wider titty "base" potentially causes the follower to move slightly forward, away from the BHO pin. The US titty has a narrower "base" and surely presents more "forward dimension" for the nub to rest upon. (such a wonderful concept) When the follower hump-mag lip comes into contact, the narrower base lessens, if not negates the forward movement of the follower.

A small fixture for peening the follower tittie's bases could be eaisly fashioned. Then, applying the chisel end of a tinner's hammer, OR a bluntly ground cold chisel, one could re-shape the titty base so as to protrude more positively when pressed aside by hump(ing).

Were I a bit more adept at posting pics with the red arrow thingies, I could illustrate.

WTF on the bevelled BHO pins. I never gave that a thought. Seems kinda useless to bevel them. ????????

YMMV and Owl may be fullashhhtt.

[fastfreddy]

Of course, every red-blooded American male has a full appreciation for the proper application of his pin to a tittie, whether foreign or domestic. It seems obvious to me that your pin is too short and pointy to properly engage any size tittie. You might try some lube and just hope you don't bend/break your pin when you eventually have to forcefully extricate it from being jammed under a pointy tittie.

My pin is long and of full girth over its entire length so I have no problems in this area. However, while it doesn't affect function, I have a "wobble-foot" on my BHO that hinders my confidence.

Thanks for the expose'.

[owlcreekok]

Uh, Mr. FF,,,
As for your second verse:

Bullstuff

[Bigger_Is_Better]

I just had this problem last weekend for the first time. I am using all Falcon followers now. It seems the follower has a little too much play forward to back. This with the recoil from the shorty I was shooting caused the follower to go forward. I plan to take the followers out and try to bend the front part of the follower that sticks down forward so that it keeps the nipple tight against the back. Both of the recievers were Imbel.

[fordtruck]

gary.jeter,

I think I finally got mine fixed. I used a common roofing nail. I dremeled off the head. I then chucked the rest in my drill and held it up to my bench grinder to make the smaller end. This fit nice and tight into the BHO. I then ground the end down until I had the right length. Next, I ground a bevel in it like the original pin. I had to put the bevel in it or the pin would catch on every odd number round in the magazine.

I manually cycled several rounds through it and I think this is going to work. I did notice the length of the pin is critical. If it is a hair too long it will hit the back of the follower when you insert the mag. Also being to long will aggravate the problem of hitting the back of a round. Too short, and we get the original problem of the pin slipping off the tittie on the follower.

[Stranger]

Shoot. I was going to type something important but all this talk of titties derailed my train of thought.

I have always been a butt man myself, but properly formed titties are a must for my gun to work.

[W.E.G.]

What lubrication is preferred for lubricating the shaft that supports the tittie-pin?

[Stranger]

I like to use petroleum based lubricants because they are longer lasting and tend to stay on the shaft even under the most rigorous conditions.

However, I am told that a water based lubricant is healthier AND it won't cause deterioration problems when you have to put it in a case.

[owlcreekok]

Reprobates. ^

[Indycar]

I had the same problem a few years ago and chaulked it up to a worn pin. I replaced/modified about 6 or 7 metric and inch BHO's for myself and others.

I used pins about 5/8" long that I found at a local well stocked Ace Hardware store. I drilled out the BHO pin. I put about a 5-10 degree downward slant to the hole so the pin would continue to work as it wears or is bent. I haven't had any problem with mine or heard any complaints on the ones I did for others.

Some I did grind a bevel on the pins while others I did not and haven't seen one bit of difference in operation. The last ones I didn't and have only found witness marks on the bottoms. That tells me the bevel isn't needed.

[ce]

It is unusual that this much discussion of titties and shaft lubrication has not elicited a response from me.

None the less, my similar problem was solved with the installation of a different mag catch, one that would preclude the magazine binding in the receiver.

Not a newer, better, cleaner, sharper or cooler mag catch, just a different one, from a pile of different ones.

Try a different mag catch.

[gcollector2002]

I just completed an STG58.

My Bolt Hold Open won't hold anything open.

I'm using a new DSAA type 1 receiver.

I almost drilled a slightly larger hole for the bolt hold open mechanism, but decide I better not.

Even if I push it up by hand it WILL NOT hold the bolt open.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

[gcollector2002]

PS

Forgot to mention I love titties too!!

[Super B]

I had that prob w/ an Entreprise receiver. First, I started bending the titties on the follower so the BHO could engage them better. Then i got tired of screwing with it and ground off the pin to eliminate the BHO feature. Then I got REALLY smart, sold the gun, got an Imbel, and never looked back.....

[W.E.G.]

UPDATE!

I sent a virgin BHO from DSA to Ed Vanden Berg for shaft lengthening.

I should have taken a picture of the modified BHO with the
Texas-sized shaft that Ed installed. Let's just say there was
AMPLE shaft for massaging to proper length in the privacy of my
own home with my unique set of titties.

Whittle the shaft slowly until it no longer causes premature ej****tion
of rounds from the magazine when the base of the rounds strikes the
tip of the shaft. Too much pressure too soon will cause a disappointment.

Check out the long rigid shaft, and how it now gets
full "engagement" on the tittie!

[W.E.G.]

Now, here is a pic of how the shaft stands among an even
number of rounds in the mag.

[W.E.G.]

And here we are with an odd number of rounds in the mag

[W.E.G.]

Just for eyball comparison, here is a "stock" BHO alongside the "augmented" BHO. A eunuch model is thrown in for general interest.

[W.E.G.]

Switch!

[JPglee1]

I came up with a cool WECSOG way of changing out the pin...

On my L1A1 the BHO had about 3/16" nub to it (whatever it was, it didnt stick out enough to clear the "Slot" let alone hit the follower)

I take the BHO pin-nub and clamp it in my vice, tight. Now, I TWIST (turn/twirl) the BHO to the side...Rotating it in a circle about the pins axis...

Both times ive done it, it pops the little spot weld at the end and then the pin came loose. Keep spinning and pulling up slightly and the pin walks itself out.

Now, take a .122" drill and drill the hole all the way out to same size thru the BHO.

To make the pin, I used a piece of 1/8" cold-rolled steel rod I got from LOWEs... I cut it off longer than I need by about 1/16" and then use the vice to press it back into the hole... I let it bottom out and then I squeeze it fairly hard to get it to swell and peen itself in, like a rivet.

Then I file the BHO pin down until it fits perfectly. I let it stick in until it almost touches the mag body so there is NO chance it will under-ride the follower.

It seems to work OK, but Ive only done 2 of them....


The vice/twist method works well and no busted BHOs or drill bits.


Take it easy!


JP

[kfranz]

Originally posted by ce
It is unusual that this much discussion of titties and shaft lubrication has not elicited a response from me.

None the less, my similar problem was solved with the installation of a different mag catch, one that would preclude the magazine binding in the receiver.

Not a newer, better, cleaner, sharper or cooler mag catch, just a different one, from a pile of different ones.

Try a different mag catch.

Your post stands out like a preacher in a porn shop. The problem may not be the shaft or the titties, but the mag well. I had a bead welded to the top of my catch and filed it to fit. Fu$%ing Hesse receivers.