OT: What's the straight scoop on Reising SMGs

TNERDoc · November 25, 2003, 07:20

I am considering getting a .45 cal. SMG to go with my 9mm MK-760. I'm thinking something "historical" and American. Choices appear to be Thompson, Grease gun, maybe MAC 10 and Reising. Thompson and grease gun are way out of my budget. For some reason, I just don't like the look of a MAC. I tried to do an internet search and every site basically staes the same thing "...the U.S. Marines found out that Reisings don't like dirt and they either threw them away or gave them to security guards." I have looked at Subguns.com, but can't get their search function to go back more than 2 days(Also, there seems to be a few "Richard Craniums" over there) I have asked local "machine gun" people and get responses like "don't get one of those", "they are jam-o-matics", "before 1986, you couldn't give those things away". BUT nobody I've talked to actually has first hand experience, they are just quoting something they heard or read. So, anybody have any opinions? Are they reliable, a waste of money, most important are they "fun". Thanks, Vail.

Tripower455 · November 25, 2003, 09:45

My only experience with Reisings are with one that belongs to a Class 3 friend. He moved away a while ago, so I might be a little hazy on some of the details.

My observations are:

WAAAAY too complicated for what it is. They tried to skirt Thompson's patent, and made the gun something that Rube Goldberg would be proud of! There are lots of little parts to lose when taken apart, which likely led to the reputation it got on the battlefield. All of these parts also attract dirt and grunge, leading to less reliability.

The stock is not the most comfortable thing in the world, IIRC, it's a bit like an M-1 Carbine and it likes to rise in FA.

There was an issue with the mags, but I don't recall what it was.

Next to a Thompson, it is a P.O.S.

That said, if you just want it for a fun, relatively cheap full auto, you really can't go wrong. When it's clean, it works fine.

John Culver · November 25, 2003, 09:50

get a .45 caliber UZI

MM in NM · November 25, 2003, 10:49

Mags are difficult to find and expensive when you do but that may or may not be fixed when (or if) the AWB/high mag cap ban sunsets next Sept... Original mags come in 12 and 20 round flavors but there is some guy making , or made, an aftermarket 30 round mag that you sometimes can find,, but the last I saw was $185.

They do have an interesting history and are C&R, thus will transfer directly to you from out of state if you have a C&R liscense. Mine is reliable because I keep it out of the trenches or foxholes. Get one while you can as they are a sleeper and seem to have appreciated very fast lately, like all entry level smg's, with good examples going for $2700 and up.

lawdog · November 25, 2003, 12:34

Friend had one. He loved it, because he kept it in good running shape, thus it rarely gave him problems. The anecdotes that went along with it were that this smg was machined to such tight tolerances that it was a real finicky/touchy weapon. Whereas other smgs are loose, which gives them room to function more reliably.

**1gewehr** · November 25, 2003, 14:55

For a military weapon, they are pretty much unsuitable. Many police departments did just fine with them, and most recreational shooters enjoy them.
They are somewhat sensitive to dirt. When cleaning them, it is easy to lose essential small pins. The ones supplied to the Marins in WWII were blued, which didn't stand up to the pacific salt. Later ones were parked and you don't see many of those with rust.

The weak point of the Reising has always been the mags. Initially, only a 20rd mag was available. The springs weren't really strong enough, and it was a single column feed. So jams weren't unusual.
Using poor logic, a 12rd mag was the solution. Granted, I haven't heard of jams using the 12rd mag. But a 12rd mag on an automatic weapon ain't very efficient.

If it comes with spare mags, that's a plus, as the original ones are pretty expensive. The 20rd ones go for $75-100 each. Ken Christy made some 30rd mags before the '94 ban, and they go for $100+ each.

They seem to be nice guns. Rate of fire is a little high, but they are accurate, and reliable if kept clean.
At ~$2500, they are still a bargain, and probably the cheapest C&R fullauto around.
1gewehr

archy · November 25, 2003, 15:17

I've owned one. Note that many of the participants during the Malayan troubles after WWII who had their choice of Sten, Thompson, or Reising preferred the Reising; only the M1 carbine and Australian Owen Gun were as well-liked.

Downside: 12 round magazines and 20s, now augmented with commercially-made 30-round mags, and Thompson 30-rounders can be modified to become 25 or 26-round mags for the Reising.

Because the bolt cocking knob is recessed under the foreend, it can be a bit unhandy in the wintertime for those wearing gloves or mittens in wintertime, and the habit of charging the gun while held upside-down and muzzle-down, which can lead to the user pointing it at his toes in the process. That habit caused the California Highway Patrol to abandon the Reising after a couple of their cops had nailed themselves in their toeseys. Like keeping your fingers out of the trigger guard, it can be learned, and the best thing about having one buzzgun is that you get pretty well familiar with that particular gun.

The sights aren't necessarily the best in the world, but there are possibilities for modification with destroying collector value, and there are a couple of electro-optical possibilities wirth considering. And there is both a folding stock [M55] and a semiauto version[M60] available for those so interested.

In general I like either the Ingram Model 6 or the M10 in .45, and the grease gun magazine-modified Uzis are a pretty sweet way to go, too. But the old Reising is okay, and it'll do. If you get one, you may have to do a little tinkering to get it to run right, and you may find yourself in a long-term project scrounging for magazines and accessories- but I bet it'll grow on you.

Pick up a copy of [URL=http://www.machinegunbooks.com/index2.html]Frank Iannamico's book, and keep your eyes on the Reising websites, and don't forget to pick up one of the reprints of the original manual, too.

-archy-/-

pmf · November 25, 2003, 15:42

Get an Uzi.

I have a full size Vector. Its registered in 9mm, 45 acp and 22 cal. As you know, they were manufacturered to shoot 9mm. You can buy a 45 conversion from Vector for $210. Its works great, but the mags are relatively expensive ($55) and only hold 16 rounds. For another $290, you can get a modified handle from Chris Humphries (go to uzitalk.com and look). This replaces the original handle/trigger assembly. It only involves removing one pin and is very easy to do. The best part -- you can now use cheap 30-round grease gun mags in your Uzi. In the end, its cheaper to buy the conversion than spend $500 on useless 16-round mags.

My Uzi runs and runs and runs. I can increase the rate of fire with different buffers. In 9mm it can range from 550 rpm to 950 rpm. In .45, even faster. Its a simple gun with few moving parts. You can get a spare everything (parts kit) for $200. Why even think about a Reising?

jimmy · November 25, 2003, 16:45

If you are looking for an historical US SMG and do not want to spend a bunch the Reising is the only way to go, with the possible exception of a S&W 76 which you have covered with your MK-760.
Some reisings need a bit of tinkering, the magazines are spendy and hard to find, but that is part of the fun of owning class 3 weapons(tracking down items). Once you get one set up they are a lot of fun and they are more accurate than a TSMG at least my M1A1. They have a fast rate of fire which I like in a recreational SMG.
Wolff makes replacement springs for the Reising.
Jimmy

Jbird · November 25, 2003, 18:35

My first post on the falfiles. Been reading for almost 2 years, became a member last month. Now finally a topic that I know a little about!

I have owned a Reising for about 12 years. Almost new when I got it. Several thousand rounds later it is still going strong.

When it was dirty it would stop shooting in the middle of a burst. Just release the trigger & it would start again. I got a spring kit from Wolffe (spelling?) springs. It now runs great. I put 1000 rounds through it without cleaning & it continued to run fine. I finally cleaned it.

I also made a fiberglass pistol grip stock (cocking slot on left side) for it. Great addition. More control.

I have 4 of the 30 round magazines. I talked to Ken Cristy (spelling?) several years ago before the ban was to take effect. He seemed reluctant start manufacturing them 24 hours a day before the ban. Seemed that his oppinion was that the market was too small & he would be stuck with them. Maybe some contact, if the ban sunsets, would convince him to make some more.

Bottom line; good gun, but replace the old springs.

usmc326 · November 25, 2003, 18:41

I used to deal in C&R MG's, and I found that the blued "police" model Reising was 100% reliable, whereas new/unissued parkerized "military" ones would act up even after extended use.

Look for a blued "police" model, that preferably is one with an original hard case, with partitioned mag compartments. If you look around you can find one with minimal wear. Quite a few that I sold even had LE agency decals on the side of the buttstock(IL or IN State PD?). Those were as smooth as glass...I wish that I had kept one.

Taking one apart is a nightmare of screws & pins, if you detail strip it, which isn't necessary. The major complaint has always been that the parts on most are hand-fitted, making replacement difficult. I had to replace a few parts on those "military" models, and using parts from Sarco only minimal swiss-file work was needed.

The 30-rd mags were converted from 30-rd Thompson mags, by removing metal vertically from the front & back to narrow the top of the mag. The instructions & measurements were published in the defunct "Machine Gun News". Somebody has to have those on-line somewhere. Or buy one to examine. Conversion of these Thompsons to fit a Reising would now be illegal, as any high capacity mag must still fit/function in the original weapon. This is another of BATF's notorious BS "interpretations" that exist solely as no individual has the bucks to take it to court and challenge it, something the NRA ignores.

Up to 100 yds. it'll be as accurate with 3-5 rd. bursts as a Thompson. If you're limited to C&R's you'll be more than satisfied with a Reising. Buy mags, 12, 20, or 30 rd. whenever you come across them, as they're like money in the bank.

whatnow · November 25, 2003, 18:50

I'd skip the reising and get an M2 carbine for the WW2 feel.

Bill

**BUFF** · November 26, 2003, 02:11

My department used to have some Reisings, got them, some Thompsons and a whole tractor trailer load of .45 ball after Korea. They were gone before I was hired, but some of the older guys, many who had service time, said they worked just as well as the Thompsons.

I ran into one at an airplane museum in the Phoenix area a few years ago- Champlains? They had a nice military gun exhibit, and on one of the Reisings was my department's marking on the buttstock, "SALT LAKE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE." When I got home I asked around and learned the above.

TNERDoc · November 26, 2003, 07:06

Thank you everyone for your comments. Vail.

**kev** · November 26, 2003, 16:50

I have no personal experience witht he Reising, but from what I've read most of the military's problem stemmed from that lack of parts interchangeability mentioned above. Take 20 new Reisings, strip them down for cleaning, and throw them back together at random and you are likely to have 20 non-functional Reisings. The Reising can be pretty reliable in civilian hands with proper care.

I'm no fan of the UZI, but the .45 kit does make it an interesting and fun SMG. Get the greasegun mag adaptor,.....definitely! I got mine from the originator; Roger Loock at Revelation Arms. Makes the UZI a keeper.

To search at Subguns.com, you need the new link to the Archives. AFAIK, it hasn't been published yet, but you should be able to access it here,...

http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/mgmsgarchive.cgi

GUNNER0311 · November 27, 2003, 03:21

Probably our of your price range, but if you want to collect something really
interesting-watch for the Inghram Model 6.

ARdoc · November 27, 2003, 14:40

Paid for mine the day I turned 21, And never looked back... Great gun for the recreational shooter!

November 25, 2003, 07:20	#1
TNERDoc Registered FALaholic #: 4042 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 159	OT: What's the straight scoop on Reising SMGs I am considering getting a .45 cal. SMG to go with my 9mm MK-760. I'm thinking something "historical" and American. Choices appear to be Thompson, Grease gun, maybe MAC 10 and Reising. Thompson and grease gun are way out of my budget. For some reason, I just don't like the look of a MAC. I tried to do an internet search and every site basically staes the same thing "...the U.S. Marines found out that Reisings don't like dirt and they either threw them away or gave them to security guards." I have looked at Subguns.com, but can't get their search function to go back more than 2 days(Also, there seems to be a few "Richard Craniums" over there) I have asked local "machine gun" people and get responses like "don't get one of those", "they are jam-o-matics", "before 1986, you couldn't give those things away". BUT nobody I've talked to actually has first hand experience, they are just quoting something they heard or read. So, anybody have any opinions? Are they reliable, a waste of money, most important are they "fun". Thanks, Vail.

November 25, 2003, 09:45	#2
Tripower455 Registered FALaholic #: 1392 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW FL Posts: 410	My only experience with Reisings are with one that belongs to a Class 3 friend. He moved away a while ago, so I might be a little hazy on some of the details. My observations are: WAAAAY too complicated for what it is. They tried to skirt Thompson's patent, and made the gun something that Rube Goldberg would be proud of! There are lots of little parts to lose when taken apart, which likely led to the reputation it got on the battlefield. All of these parts also attract dirt and grunge, leading to less reliability. The stock is not the most comfortable thing in the world, IIRC, it's a bit like an M-1 Carbine and it likes to rise in FA. There was an issue with the mags, but I don't recall what it was. Next to a Thompson, it is a P.O.S. That said, if you just want it for a fun, relatively cheap full auto, you really can't go wrong. When it's clean, it works fine. __________________ I open up 3 Deuces......I'm NEVER COMIN' BACK!

November 25, 2003, 09:50	#3
John Culver Registered FALaholic #: 6035 Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 8,619	get a .45 caliber UZI __________________ The speculative line of demarcation, where obedience ought to end and resistance must begin, is faint, obscure, and not easily definable. --Burke. ---------------------- The CPU Shack - CPU History and Microprocessor Collection.

November 25, 2003, 14:55	#6
1gewehr Curio & Relic Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 2004 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: TN Posts: 2,155	For a military weapon, they are pretty much unsuitable. Many police departments did just fine with them, and most recreational shooters enjoy them. They are somewhat sensitive to dirt. When cleaning them, it is easy to lose essential small pins. The ones supplied to the Marins in WWII were blued, which didn't stand up to the pacific salt. Later ones were parked and you don't see many of those with rust. The weak point of the Reising has always been the mags. Initially, only a 20rd mag was available. The springs weren't really strong enough, and it was a single column feed. So jams weren't unusual. Using poor logic, a 12rd mag was the solution. Granted, I haven't heard of jams using the 12rd mag. But a 12rd mag on an automatic weapon ain't very efficient. If it comes with spare mags, that's a plus, as the original ones are pretty expensive. The 20rd ones go for $75-100 each. Ken Christy made some 30rd mags before the '94 ban, and they go for $100+ each. They seem to be nice guns. Rate of fire is a little high, but they are accurate, and reliable if kept clean. At ~$2500, they are still a bargain, and probably the cheapest C&R fullauto around. 1gewehr __________________ "Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss!"

November 25, 2003, 15:17	#7
archy Registered FALaholic #: 533 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: 82701 Posts: 2,315	I've owned one. Note that many of the participants during the Malayan troubles after WWII who had their choice of Sten, Thompson, or Reising preferred the Reising; only the M1 carbine and Australian Owen Gun were as well-liked. Downside: 12 round magazines and 20s, now augmented with commercially-made 30-round mags, and Thompson 30-rounders can be modified to become 25 or 26-round mags for the Reising. Because the bolt cocking knob is recessed under the foreend, it can be a bit unhandy in the wintertime for those wearing gloves or mittens in wintertime, and the habit of charging the gun while held upside-down and muzzle-down, which can lead to the user pointing it at his toes in the process. That habit caused the California Highway Patrol to abandon the Reising after a couple of their cops had nailed themselves in their toeseys. Like keeping your fingers out of the trigger guard, it can be learned, and the best thing about having one buzzgun is that you get pretty well familiar with that particular gun. The sights aren't necessarily the best in the world, but there are possibilities for modification with destroying collector value, and there are a couple of electro-optical possibilities wirth considering. And there is both a folding stock [M55] and a semiauto version[M60] available for those so interested. In general I like either the Ingram Model 6 or the M10 in .45, and the grease gun magazine-modified Uzis are a pretty sweet way to go, too. But the old Reising is okay, and it'll do. If you get one, you may have to do a little tinkering to get it to run right, and you may find yourself in a long-term project scrounging for magazines and accessories- but I bet it'll grow on you. Pick up a copy of [URL=http://www.machinegunbooks.com/index2.html]Frank Iannamico's book, and keep your eyes on the Reising websites, and don't forget to pick up one of the reprints of the original manual, too. -archy-/- __________________ Says James: "In my opinion, there's nothing in this world Beats a '52 Vincent and a red headed girl. Now Nortons and Indians and Greeves just won't do, Ah, they don't have a soul like a Vincent '52" -Richard John Thompson 1952 Vincent Black Lightning

November 25, 2003, 10:49	#4
MM in NM Registered FALaholic #: 5720 Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: East mountains of New Mexico Posts: 461	Mags are difficult to find and expensive when you do but that may or may not be fixed when (or if) the AWB/high mag cap ban sunsets next Sept... Original mags come in 12 and 20 round flavors but there is some guy making , or made, an aftermarket 30 round mag that you sometimes can find,, but the last I saw was $185. They do have an interesting history and are C&R, thus will transfer directly to you from out of state if you have a C&R liscense. Mine is reliable because I keep it out of the trenches or foxholes. Get one while you can as they are a sleeper and seem to have appreciated very fast lately, like all entry level smg's, with good examples going for $2700 and up.

November 25, 2003, 12:34	#5
lawdog Registered FALaholic #: 7773 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,093	Friend had one. He loved it, because he kept it in good running shape, thus it rarely gave him problems. The anecdotes that went along with it were that this smg was machined to such tight tolerances that it was a real finicky/touchy weapon. Whereas other smgs are loose, which gives them room to function more reliably.

November 25, 2003, 15:42	#8
pmf Registered FALaholic #: 2923 Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 1,636	Get an Uzi. I have a full size Vector. Its registered in 9mm, 45 acp and 22 cal. As you know, they were manufacturered to shoot 9mm. You can buy a 45 conversion from Vector for $210. Its works great, but the mags are relatively expensive ($55) and only hold 16 rounds. For another $290, you can get a modified handle from Chris Humphries (go to uzitalk.com and look). This replaces the original handle/trigger assembly. It only involves removing one pin and is very easy to do. The best part -- you can now use cheap 30-round grease gun mags in your Uzi. In the end, its cheaper to buy the conversion than spend $500 on useless 16-round mags. My Uzi runs and runs and runs. I can increase the rate of fire with different buffers. In 9mm it can range from 550 rpm to 950 rpm. In .45, even faster. Its a simple gun with few moving parts. You can get a spare everything (parts kit) for $200. Why even think about a Reising?

November 25, 2003, 16:45	#9
jimmy Registered FALaholic #: 391 Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 409	If you are looking for an historical US SMG and do not want to spend a bunch the Reising is the only way to go, with the possible exception of a S&W 76 which you have covered with your MK-760. Some reisings need a bit of tinkering, the magazines are spendy and hard to find, but that is part of the fun of owning class 3 weapons(tracking down items). Once you get one set up they are a lot of fun and they are more accurate than a TSMG at least my M1A1. They have a fast rate of fire which I like in a recreational SMG. Wolff makes replacement springs for the Reising. Jimmy

November 25, 2003, 18:35	#10
Jbird Registered FALaholic #: 12189 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Jacksonville, NC Posts: 117	My first post on the falfiles. Been reading for almost 2 years, became a member last month. Now finally a topic that I know a little about! I have owned a Reising for about 12 years. Almost new when I got it. Several thousand rounds later it is still going strong. When it was dirty it would stop shooting in the middle of a burst. Just release the trigger & it would start again. I got a spring kit from Wolffe (spelling?) springs. It now runs great. I put 1000 rounds through it without cleaning & it continued to run fine. I finally cleaned it. I also made a fiberglass pistol grip stock (cocking slot on left side) for it. Great addition. More control. I have 4 of the 30 round magazines. I talked to Ken Cristy (spelling?) several years ago before the ban was to take effect. He seemed reluctant start manufacturing them 24 hours a day before the ban. Seemed that his oppinion was that the market was too small & he would be stuck with them. Maybe some contact, if the ban sunsets, would convince him to make some more. Bottom line; good gun, but replace the old springs.

November 25, 2003, 18:41	#11
usmc326 Registered FALaholic #: 202 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: MN, USA Posts: 1,322	I used to deal in C&R MG's, and I found that the blued "police" model Reising was 100% reliable, whereas new/unissued parkerized "military" ones would act up even after extended use. Look for a blued "police" model, that preferably is one with an original hard case, with partitioned mag compartments. If you look around you can find one with minimal wear. Quite a few that I sold even had LE agency decals on the side of the buttstock(IL or IN State PD?). Those were as smooth as glass...I wish that I had kept one. Taking one apart is a nightmare of screws & pins, if you detail strip it, which isn't necessary. The major complaint has always been that the parts on most are hand-fitted, making replacement difficult. I had to replace a few parts on those "military" models, and using parts from Sarco only minimal swiss-file work was needed. The 30-rd mags were converted from 30-rd Thompson mags, by removing metal vertically from the front & back to narrow the top of the mag. The instructions & measurements were published in the defunct "Machine Gun News". Somebody has to have those on-line somewhere. Or buy one to examine. Conversion of these Thompsons to fit a Reising would now be illegal, as any high capacity mag must still fit/function in the original weapon. This is another of BATF's notorious BS "interpretations" that exist solely as no individual has the bucks to take it to court and challenge it, something the NRA ignores. Up to 100 yds. it'll be as accurate with 3-5 rd. bursts as a Thompson. If you're limited to C&R's you'll be more than satisfied with a Reising. Buy mags, 12, 20, or 30 rd. whenever you come across them, as they're like money in the bank.

November 25, 2003, 18:50	#12
whatnow Registered FALaholic #: 3874 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 475	I'd skip the reising and get an M2 carbine for the WW2 feel. Bill __________________ www.triggerwork.net

November 26, 2003, 02:11	#13
BUFF Old Fart Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 789 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 7,141	My department used to have some Reisings, got them, some Thompsons and a whole tractor trailer load of .45 ball after Korea. They were gone before I was hired, but some of the older guys, many who had service time, said they worked just as well as the Thompsons. I ran into one at an airplane museum in the Phoenix area a few years ago- Champlains? They had a nice military gun exhibit, and on one of the Reisings was my department's marking on the buttstock, "SALT LAKE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE." When I got home I asked around and learned the above. __________________ BUFF

November 26, 2003, 07:06	#14
TNERDoc Registered FALaholic #: 4042 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 159	Thank you everyone for your comments. Vail.

November 26, 2003, 16:50	#15
kev Curio & Relic Contributor FALaholic #: 71 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Indiana and various others Posts: 3,777	I have no personal experience witht he Reising, but from what I've read most of the military's problem stemmed from that lack of parts interchangeability mentioned above. Take 20 new Reisings, strip them down for cleaning, and throw them back together at random and you are likely to have 20 non-functional Reisings. The Reising can be pretty reliable in civilian hands with proper care. I'm no fan of the UZI, but the .45 kit does make it an interesting and fun SMG. Get the greasegun mag adaptor,.....definitely! I got mine from the originator; Roger Loock at Revelation Arms. Makes the UZI a keeper. To search at Subguns.com, you need the new link to the Archives. AFAIK, it hasn't been published yet, but you should be able to access it here,... http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/mgmsgarchive.cgi __________________ Gun control is not about guns; it's about control. RUE?

November 27, 2003, 03:21	#16
GUNNER0311 Registered FALaholic #: 10471 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 289	Probably our of your price range, but if you want to collect something really interesting-watch for the Inghram Model 6. __________________ You can accomplish more with a kind word and a gun, than a kind word alone!

November 27, 2003, 14:40	#17
ARdoc Registered FALaholic #: 6168 Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 55	Paid for mine the day I turned 21, And never looked back... Great gun for the recreational shooter! __________________ There are two types of people in this world. People like us, and food.

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