Semi- Auto accuracy

Radmd · November 16, 2003, 08:34

I do not want to start a flame war!!! I have owned numerous semi autos SR9 T, NM M1A1, FALs and mouse guns(AR15s). Most of which have come and gone to people with more money and sense than myself. Of all of these my mouse guns were the only ones I have seen consistantly shoot true MOA or less (some much less). Opinion on the following
1.To build a hyper accurate 7.62 which platform? Please address the following issues with each. Free float barrel, pain in the butt with M1A1 easy on others. Press in vs screww in barrels G3 vs FAL. Scope mount capability. Dust cover vs receiver. Trigger seem to be in favor of M1A1.
2. Your opinion on how to solve the above problems with the different types of platforms. ie rock solid scope mount for FAL? G3 vs FAL vs M1A1 vs AR10.
3. My analysis seems to indicate the AR10 would be the way to go (no stones please only words). Having never owned or even shot one that comes from just paper (which is usually deceiving). Easy scope mounting to the receiver easy to free float etc. The only draw back seems to be cost and the fact I like to build rifles whenever possible.
Like I said not trying to start a war just learn something.
Rad

John Randolph · November 16, 2003, 08:52

Here's one of several thread's on the subject. The search feature could give you a better idea cause you'll know the search terms you're interested in more.

AR-10 vs. FAL Heavy Barrel

Generally speaking the AR will be inherently more accurate, but like anything in firearms things are a trade-off. Most here want excellent accuracy, but they also want durability, and reliability in a battle-rifle platform. The FAL has the AR beat hands down any day of the week and twice on Sunday in terms of ease of maintenance, customability, inexpensive parts and magazines and last but not least reliability, because it uses a gas-piston. I think I speak for most everyone here when I say that the .25-.5MOA you might lose (assuming you're so good that you would notice the loss) is easily made up in the rest of those factors.

If you want hyper-accuracy, my suggestion is to go with a bolt-gun. If I had to compete with a semi (and the competitors weren't shooting back) than I would use the AR, but I would choose the FAL if my life depended on it.

**W.E.G.** · November 16, 2003, 08:53

The AR10 with a factory free-float barrel is probably the simplest answer.

There are a lot of non free-floated M1A's out ther that will shoot ticks off a bull's ass.

The FAL ususally takes some doing to get that accurate. Are you familiar with the Vanden Berg free float system?

hydrotx · November 16, 2003, 10:17

Here was my solution. If you want to tweak a FAL, Ed Vanden Berg is the way to go.

Radmd · November 16, 2003, 10:46

Excellent pix. What kind of barrels would you rec. I have looked at DSA medium conture barrels. Is there a source for match grade barrels.
Rad

hydrotx · November 16, 2003, 11:56

The barrel in mine is a cherry Imbel barrel, best I can consistantly do is thus far is 3/4 MOA.

IIRC Ed also used some winchester barrels he modified to work in the fal.

I guess if you want sub MOA accuracy in semi-autos, no matter what you do, it will set you back $1,500+. Kinda makes me kick my rational side, when my out of the box Savage can do the same for much less.

kotengu · November 16, 2003, 13:30

I had Ed put a custom Shilen match grade heavy barrel on mine. It averages around 3/4 MOA as well. I think you could get slightly more accurate out of an AR-10, but I don't like that platform, so I didn't do it. If I need any smaller groups, I'll shoot a bolt gun. Until then, I'll keep working on the beggest cause of my misses - the nut behind the trigger.

jimmy · November 16, 2003, 13:35

If you looking for pure accuracy potential with the least "dicking around" in a semi auto the answer is simple, SR25 or a AR10T as a second choice.
John Randolf mentions some valid points; however Are you going to be in combat where the asserted advantage of the FAL in reliability will make a difference? I think the ease of maintanance is equal between the two and if you want to swap out front ends for whatever reason we all know which is the easier by far. As far as mounting a scope the SR25/AR10T cant be beat,period.
Radmd You asked about a semi auto
"Hyper Accurate 7.62 platform"; If that is what you are looking for then the .5 MOA difference in capability should be important to you. At 800 yards or meters those 4 inches might make the difference.
Jimmy

John Randolph · November 16, 2003, 15:31

Quote:

John Randolf mentions some valid points; however Are you going to be in combat where the asserted advantage of the FAL in reliability will make a difference? I think the ease of maintanance is equal between the two and if you want to swap out front ends for whatever reason we all know which is the easier by far.

I doubt very much that you're going to find more AR-10 front-ends in a combat zone than you will a FAL.

In combat reliability is the definining factor, at least for me. If I were in combat and accuracy was the prime concern, and I were that good a shot, I'd use a bolt gun.
We recently saw where a person had put 5000 rounds through his rifle without cleaning, and without a failure. I defy any AR to try even 1000 without profound reliability issues.

Quote:

"Hyper Accurate 7.62 platform"; If that is what you are looking for then the .5 MOA difference in capability should be important to you. At 800 yards or meters those 4 inches might make the difference.

At 800 yards .5 moa difference equates to 4 inches. If it's vital to get a bullet within that radius I would submit that any rifleman in the world (let alone sniper quality) would try and get A LOT closer to his target. If you absolutely had to make the shot at that range, than in any rl Combat zone the shot would be made with a bolt gun.

If Radmd is going to be shooting competition, than he's better off going with an AR. If he still wants the FAL for a mousegun, than I urge him to sally forth in his quest for the holy grail of wecsogery. He'll have a bunch of fun, and he got lots of good advice.

Radmd · November 16, 2003, 17:01

Excellent points from all. I quess the answer to the question depends on the question. I think most have confirmed my suspicions. The ar10 platform is more accurate and easier to set up. However, it definitely has its limitations as a true battle weapon. It all comes down to what you want the weapon to do.
You did spark a note I have been interested in. In th epast I have seen remington rifles fitted with M1A1 mags. I think Mcmilliam did these. Does anyone do a coversion to a FAL mag. That would be excellent being able to use one mag for both guns.
Rad

**EMDII** · November 16, 2003, 17:12

Define accurate. Purpose is what makes your rifle. Design to the end-state, and then figure out how to get there.
My L1A1 can hit 24" at 670 yards, prone, supported, w/ iron sights. An M1A can do better, but with perhaps less reliability.

Absolute accuracy: a bolt gun. Somewhere after that come the M16, M1A, and the FAL. And the AK is WAY down that line. But a properly tuned rifle must be tuned in accordance w/ it's operating parameters. Shooters rarely shoot in a vacuum.

By the way: the trigger on the M1A1 really sux! And you've never seen a R-700 w/ M1A1 mags!

jimmy · November 16, 2003, 17:55

John Randolf
Where does Radmd mention combat use in his post and on top of that the vast majority of the board members only see range use with their precision rifle. When shooting paper .5 MOA does make a difference, He also is specificly speaking /asking about Semi auto rifles and that is what I addressed. Since I was speaking about the above parameters that extra front end for that SR25/AR10 is a good/fun thing to have.
If we were talking about combat "sniper" use of a rifle I would hold off speaking about the topic because I have not been to one of the Formal military schools and would only be speaking out of my ass.
Jimmy

John Randolph · November 17, 2003, 16:50

I refer you to my previous statement...

Quote:

If I had to compete with a semi (and the competitors weren't shooting back) than I would use the AR, but I would choose the FAL if my life depended on it.

dougjones31 · November 17, 2003, 17:49

I recently bought an AR-10 and I started testing how long it would run without a cleaning. It is at 200 rounds of Greek 7.62 and probably 40 rnds of Match ammo and isrunning fine. It is a factory AR10-A4 with a 20" stainless barrel and it shoots sub MOA with Lake City Match ammo. I was really impressed when I put the scope on it and really tested it's accuracy. It does not have freefloated handguards either.

It gets all kinds of coolness points, but it is bulkier than a FAL and I do not trust it's reliability as much yet.(My testing may change my opinion....we will see)

FAL's are still number one in my book!

Barry · November 17, 2003, 18:51

AR10 definitely. But you won't be winning Camp Perry with any of the semi-autos. They just aren't accurate enough to keep up with a bolt gun.
As far as this "combat reliability" crap goes, it is pure crap. Reliability and accuracy do not walk hand-in-hand. You must compromise one for the other.
If you want reliable, get a bolt action. Even then, the most accurate rifles aren't the most reliable.

November 16, 2003, 08:34	#1
Radmd Registered FALaholic #: 12219 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 160	Semi- Auto accuracy I do not want to start a flame war!!! I have owned numerous semi autos SR9 T, NM M1A1, FALs and mouse guns(AR15s). Most of which have come and gone to people with more money and sense than myself. Of all of these my mouse guns were the only ones I have seen consistantly shoot true MOA or less (some much less). Opinion on the following 1.To build a hyper accurate 7.62 which platform? Please address the following issues with each. Free float barrel, pain in the butt with M1A1 easy on others. Press in vs screww in barrels G3 vs FAL. Scope mount capability. Dust cover vs receiver. Trigger seem to be in favor of M1A1. 2. Your opinion on how to solve the above problems with the different types of platforms. ie rock solid scope mount for FAL? G3 vs FAL vs M1A1 vs AR10. 3. My analysis seems to indicate the AR10 would be the way to go (no stones please only words). Having never owned or even shot one that comes from just paper (which is usually deceiving). Easy scope mounting to the receiver easy to free float etc. The only draw back seems to be cost and the fact I like to build rifles whenever possible. Like I said not trying to start a war just learn something. Rad

November 16, 2003, 08:52	#2
John Randolph Registered FALaholic #: 2686 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Da Burgh Posts: 713	Here's one of several thread's on the subject. The search feature could give you a better idea cause you'll know the search terms you're interested in more. AR-10 vs. FAL Heavy Barrel Generally speaking the AR will be inherently more accurate, but like anything in firearms things are a trade-off. Most here want excellent accuracy, but they also want durability, and reliability in a battle-rifle platform. The FAL has the AR beat hands down any day of the week and twice on Sunday in terms of ease of maintenance, customability, inexpensive parts and magazines and last but not least reliability, because it uses a gas-piston. I think I speak for most everyone here when I say that the .25-.5MOA you might lose (assuming you're so good that you would notice the loss) is easily made up in the rest of those factors. If you want hyper-accuracy, my suggestion is to go with a bolt-gun. If I had to compete with a semi (and the competitors weren't shooting back) than I would use the AR, but I would choose the FAL if my life depended on it. __________________ One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. -Sir Winston Churchill Last edited by John Randolph; November 16, 2003 at 09:10.

November 16, 2003, 08:53	#3
W.E.G. Administrator Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 1211 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 31,055	The AR10 with a factory free-float barrel is probably the simplest answer. There are a lot of non free-floated M1A's out ther that will shoot ticks off a bull's ass. The FAL ususally takes some doing to get that accurate. Are you familiar with the Vanden Berg free float system? __________________ . . . Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.

November 16, 2003, 10:17	#4
hydrotx Registered FALaholic #: 37 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: PA for now Posts: 1,414	Here was my solution. If you want to tweak a FAL, Ed Vanden Berg is the way to go. __________________ "The drinking will continue until morale improves"

November 16, 2003, 11:56	#6
hydrotx Registered FALaholic #: 37 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: PA for now Posts: 1,414	The barrel in mine is a cherry Imbel barrel, best I can consistantly do is thus far is 3/4 MOA. IIRC Ed also used some winchester barrels he modified to work in the fal. I guess if you want sub MOA accuracy in semi-autos, no matter what you do, it will set you back $1,500+. Kinda makes me kick my rational side, when my out of the box Savage can do the same for much less. __________________ "The drinking will continue until morale improves"

November 16, 2003, 10:46	#5
Radmd Registered FALaholic #: 12219 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 160	Excellent pix. What kind of barrels would you rec. I have looked at DSA medium conture barrels. Is there a source for match grade barrels. Rad

November 16, 2003, 13:30	#7
kotengu Registered FALaholic #: 1594 Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Baxter, TN, USA Posts: 3,066	I had Ed put a custom Shilen match grade heavy barrel on mine. It averages around 3/4 MOA as well. I think you could get slightly more accurate out of an AR-10, but I don't like that platform, so I didn't do it. If I need any smaller groups, I'll shoot a bolt gun. Until then, I'll keep working on the beggest cause of my misses - the nut behind the trigger. __________________ "The way is in training." - Miyamoto Musashi

November 16, 2003, 13:35	#8
jimmy Registered FALaholic #: 391 Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 409	If you looking for pure accuracy potential with the least "dicking around" in a semi auto the answer is simple, SR25 or a AR10T as a second choice. John Randolf mentions some valid points; however Are you going to be in combat where the asserted advantage of the FAL in reliability will make a difference? I think the ease of maintanance is equal between the two and if you want to swap out front ends for whatever reason we all know which is the easier by far. As far as mounting a scope the SR25/AR10T cant be beat,period. Radmd You asked about a semi auto "Hyper Accurate 7.62 platform"; If that is what you are looking for then the .5 MOA difference in capability should be important to you. At 800 yards or meters those 4 inches might make the difference. Jimmy

November 16, 2003, 17:01	#10
Radmd Registered FALaholic #: 12219 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 160	Excellent points from all. I quess the answer to the question depends on the question. I think most have confirmed my suspicions. The ar10 platform is more accurate and easier to set up. However, it definitely has its limitations as a true battle weapon. It all comes down to what you want the weapon to do. You did spark a note I have been interested in. In th epast I have seen remington rifles fitted with M1A1 mags. I think Mcmilliam did these. Does anyone do a coversion to a FAL mag. That would be excellent being able to use one mag for both guns. Rad

November 16, 2003, 17:55	#12
jimmy Registered FALaholic #: 391 Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 409	John Randolf Where does Radmd mention combat use in his post and on top of that the vast majority of the board members only see range use with their precision rifle. When shooting paper .5 MOA does make a difference, He also is specificly speaking /asking about Semi auto rifles and that is what I addressed. Since I was speaking about the above parameters that extra front end for that SR25/AR10 is a good/fun thing to have. If we were talking about combat "sniper" use of a rifle I would hold off speaking about the topic because I have not been to one of the Formal military schools and would only be speaking out of my ass. Jimmy

November 17, 2003, 17:49	#14
dougjones31 Registered FALaholic #: 6967 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 4,282	I recently bought an AR-10 and I started testing how long it would run without a cleaning. It is at 200 rounds of Greek 7.62 and probably 40 rnds of Match ammo and isrunning fine. It is a factory AR10-A4 with a 20" stainless barrel and it shoots sub MOA with Lake City Match ammo. I was really impressed when I put the scope on it and really tested it's accuracy. It does not have freefloated handguards either. It gets all kinds of coolness points, but it is bulkier than a FAL and I do not trust it's reliability as much yet.(My testing may change my opinion....we will see) FAL's are still number one in my book! __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." --Adolf Hitler, 1935

November 17, 2003, 18:51	#15
Barry Registered FALaholic #: 1196 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 663	AR10 definitely. But you won't be winning Camp Perry with any of the semi-autos. They just aren't accurate enough to keep up with a bolt gun. As far as this "combat reliability" crap goes, it is pure crap. Reliability and accuracy do not walk hand-in-hand. You must compromise one for the other. If you want reliable, get a bolt action. Even then, the most accurate rifles aren't the most reliable. __________________ Self Defense is a Basic Human Right!

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