DSA SA58 parts gun..OH MY GOD! (photos)

FWRA · February 14, 2001, 13:53

These were taken hastily and the pictures don't do these rifles justice. Just wanted to get these up quick. They came coated in lube and I never took the time to clean them.

No matter. These are fantastic SA58's at a bargain price at $995! I like 'em better than the top line guns! (sorry DSA, these are spectacular! ;-)

I'll also go on record to say that, contrary to some folks comments, I also still really like the IAI M444's. Two different FAL's, both parts guns, and of course the DSA is the Cadillac of the two but for $849 retail the IAI M444 is still a great buy.

It's all about great choices!

Let me introduce you to two of my new best friends:

Wall shot of 2 DSA's (top and bottom) and M444:

Closer comparison of the SA58 and the M444:

SA58 rt side Type II closeup:

FWRA · February 14, 2001, 14:09

Part two, photos. Here are a few more:

Left side Type II closeup:

Front sight:

SA58 view:

That's all for now. These are superb STG 58's and the Type II receiver is one bad lookin' momma!

Warm Regards,
Mark Powell
FWRA

Nwfal · February 14, 2001, 14:11

They look betiful!! the pictures earlier had the finish look more grey then charcoal. Are they charcoal finished in color?

FWRA · February 14, 2001, 14:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Nwfal:
They look betiful!! the pictures earlier had the finish look more grey then charcoal. Are they charcoal finished in color?

They are grey, just loaded with lubricant before they ship. Gives 'em the "shiny look".
I have no idea what the lube is, but it's really on there.

I'll leave the cleanup to their new owners. One was already sold before I finished booking in the second one! These are hot rifles and the general consensus of opinion:

Type II winds hands down!

Here is a photo of the "before lubrication" rifles at DSA prior to shipping:

I'm going to call my new friend, Anne, and order more! ;-)
Best Regards,
Mark Powell

[This message has been edited by FWRA (edited February 14, 2001).]

Bill Woodbury · February 14, 2001, 14:31

w

FWRA · February 14, 2001, 14:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Woodbury:
I noticed in your picture the IAI gun was built from a R1 kit. No comparison to the StG kit guns. I thought only Hesse and Century would use South African kits for shop guns.

Bill,
Maybe it's the photo, or maybe your eyes, but the M444 is no SA kit gun but built on an Imbel parts kit. I have several Imbel parts kits and they are the same.

You guys may not like these rifles, but the fact is, they are an outstanding value that seem to have generated more excitement than any FAL before it. (price, quality and value=sales)

It will probably be responsible for even more "price breaks" from other US manufacturers as well. Not bad for a "crap" gun. ;-)

Just the ramblings of an old man....
Every time I see these hot selling FAL's "run down" it makes me wonder why? :-)

I guess folks in Arizona just don't like IAI, and I really don't know why....
Also kinda strange that you made no comment about the "star" of the show, the DSA, but you sure jumped right on the M444.

Why Bill, why? ;-) Is it the "painted" finish on these guns?

Best Regards,
Mark Powell

[This message has been edited by FWRA (edited February 14, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by FWRA (edited February 14, 2001).]

fuatos · February 14, 2001, 15:02

Looks like mine. I am very happy with the DSA Parts Guns. Very good value and darn it, they shoot straight to boot!!!

fuatos

Rule .308 · February 14, 2001, 15:32

Hey Mark,
Are the hand guards on the DSA gun crinkle coated?

Rule .308

FWRA · February 14, 2001, 15:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Rule .308:
Hey Mark,
Are the hand guards on the DSA gun crinkle coated?

Rule .308

Rule .308,
They sure are and they look great! I took photos of them but I forgot to post it.

I erased my 3 1/2 floppy once I uploaded the photos to PhotoPoint. My Sony Mavica is great because the 3 1/2 floppies can be quickly uploaded/downloaded without any trouble at all. Quick and easy!

Mark Powell
FWRA

Templar · February 14, 2001, 16:20

Very cool Mark, thanks for the pics! I'll be ordering my Type 2 on Monday from DSA!

Thanks again!

Farmer from Hell · February 14, 2001, 17:09

So whats the wholesale price on these? Makes me rethink my STG kit build idea.

FfH

------------------
What part of Shall not be Infringed dont you understand pinhead?

[This message has been edited by Farmer from Hell (edited February 14, 2001).]

Templar · February 14, 2001, 20:38

$795.00.

You can't build a kit at that price with DSA internals and a DSA receiver and an excellent kit + re-park.

You just can't.

DeanP · February 15, 2001, 01:32

995.00 retail price plus sales tax Yes you can build one as cheap. You will not get a discount from DSA

FALbert · February 15, 2001, 01:46

I MUST HAVE ONE (or two, or three)

Enquiring Minds · February 15, 2001, 01:52

The Commandment against "coveting", that's just wives, right?

Tell me which DSA you're going to marry so I can do some heavy coveting of the other one!

BB · February 15, 2001, 01:58

Quote:

These are fantastic SA58's at a bargain price at $995!

Huh. My 100% DSA/StG58 cost the same, and its all new parts with parkcoat finish and new synthetic furniture and a DSA scope mount. Thats no "bargain", not by a long shot.

[This message has been edited by BB (edited February 15, 2001).]

sparky · February 15, 2001, 02:03

Dean P $795.00 + $15.00 shipping + $10.00 to my FFL. its a done deal.

Talyn · February 15, 2001, 03:53

FWRA,

Nice looking FALs (DSA STG's & M444). I definitely like "different" look of the Type II receivers. I just might have to add one to keep my ARS STG and M444 company. Ditto Mark on your comments regarding the M444. Mines just fine and looks just like the pics you post.

By the way, I just don't get where some folks think the M444 is made from South African R1 kits. Mine sure isn't. The very minor bumps and bruises (i.e. scratched handguards & tight gas collars)are easily taken care of.

I think we have some great choices in the three (+ Entreprise Arms)entry-level FALs in this price range. I guess depending on your budget and wants, check things out before you buy. My experience and opinions of course.

Talyn

sparky · February 15, 2001, 14:50

Could the M444 be from the Imbel guns is just fate that the group buy guns and the IMI M444 come from Houston?

Talyn · February 15, 2001, 15:52

Sparky,

I think a week or so ago someone said the group buy kits were coming from IAI. At least I recall a post to that affect. Those getting a gun built from these kits will get a rifle that will look just like an M444 on the outside, except for whatever US muzzle break is put on. The Moses or Hesse brakes seem to look just like the factory flash hider.

Of course internally the same parts (i.e. fire control group, gas piston, etc.) would need to be substituted for US equivalents. Add a DSA handguard and pistol grip, or grip from Dan at VOW, and you're ready to rock-n-roll as per 922r. Add in refinishing if needed.

Talyn

Paul · February 15, 2001, 16:29

Just beautiful! I'm looking for my first FAL this weekend and it looks like these DSA rifles are the best of both worlds - great part guns and DSA receivers.

FWRA · February 15, 2001, 19:07

Quote:

Originally posted by BB:

Quote:

These are fantastic SA58's at a bargain price at $995!

Huh. My 100% DSA/StG58 cost the same, and its all new parts with parkcoat finish and new synthetic furniture and a DSA scope mount. Thats no "bargain", not by a long shot.

[This message has been edited by BB (edited February 15, 2001).]

Hmm. When did you buy your DSa for that price? They are now a darn site more that that. If you can buy a new DSA Standard Rifle for $1300 you are doing good, and then add the cost of the bipod "upgrade".

These ARE a heck of a buy at $995! ;-)
If you can order me several at your super price, please do....

Warm Regards,
Mark Powell
FWRA

tunashark · February 16, 2001, 01:36

What kind of muzzle brakes are on the end of those DSA's? Did some of those new ones sneak out or are those TAPCO's? How about a pic or two from that angle? Enough butt shots, how about some full frontal? I'm about to build a full length StG but I haven't decided on muzzle device yet and I'm waiting to compare TAPCO to DSA.

usmc326 · February 16, 2001, 02:45

The DSA parts rifle is definitely the best buy, obviously meant to compete with the IAI 444. The early 444's evaluations
were good, then IAI apparently hired the
assemblers from Century.
The latest evaluation, by Dan @ Vow, has
shown the IAI to need work, parts replaced(peeling finish on gas piston, &
shoddy installation of HESSE t/s/h), &
shoddily refinished furniture.
So the current 444's require spending more money & time than the DSA costs(out of the box), & the DSA is ready to shoot.
Plus, DSA will be around longer than IAI,
and we know DSA's good repair & warranty track record.
A tough choice...I think not. The only good deal on the Chilean Imbels is the Kits, as WE control parts choice & build
quality.

Talyn: no offense taken, discussion with
other viewpoints is what this board is for.
To come as close to DSA's $795 dealer price vs. $995 retail, won't be found at gun shows.
Instead go to: www.shotgunnews.com and click on FFL dealers. Check your State for the FFL's near you, then click on them. That'll take you to their fee for handling a transfer. Most are $10-$30,
but a few are $50 or even 10%. If they don't have a fee listed then call first.

[This message has been edited by usmc326 (edited February 18, 2001).]

Wobblin' Goblin · February 16, 2001, 06:59

I gotta tell you those DSA parts guns sure look tantalizing for the price.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

------------------
The Wobblin' Goblin has spoken.

bluejay8 · February 16, 2001, 12:47

What is the TYPE 2 RECEIVER? I haven't seen a description of this at the DSA SITE or elsewhere. I couldn't tell the differences in the photo.

Previous poster said Type 2 was the way to go-but why?

$800 Price-- How do we obtain this price? Previous poster said it was for members. Info appreciated .

Wadman · February 16, 2001, 12:55

Bluejay, if you scroll up to the pictures that are closeups of the receiver, you'll see what a Type II looks like.

A Type I has lightening cuts milled along the bottom edge of the upper receiver that forms a radius as it moves from back to front, curving down towards the mag well. A Type II receiver is the same except there is an additional radius (or scallop) at the very back of the receiver where it meets the backplate.

Talyn · February 16, 2001, 15:12

usmc326 and the other 2-3 M444 haters,

I think it's good we have a choice between three mid priced FAL's, including the Entreprise products. I seem to recall posts on this board where folks have had problems with Entreprise and DSA guns, so nothing is perfect.

My M444, bought 3 weeks ago, did not have the dremel work as observed by Dan at VOW. Other than cleaning & lubing the gas adjustment collar, replacing the gas piston and handguard my M444 has not been a problem. If I would have seen dremel work, sand, peeling paint, sanded receivers, etc. on my gun it never would have went home. It meets my need for a general use working FAL to complement my "ARS" StG.

By the way, I may eventually get one of the new DSA Type 2 "kit" guns. However, it will cost me extra $$ to swap out the steel handguard and stock, for synthetic handguards and a Penguin humpback stock, because "I" don't like the original parts, regardless of parts count. Please don't take that as a condemnation of the DSA or their guns. I've bought "plenty" of their products. Just personal preference.

My monitoring of posts regarding the M444, both before and after my purchase, indicates more postive reviews of the M444 than negative. There seems to be only "one" real bad review out there. If someone wants a mid-range FAL let them look at all the possibilites before a purchase. I hope you don't buy everything based on what you hear without checking it out first hand.

I guess if you have proof that Century folks are building M444's you should post it. Also, it would be great if someone could get IAI on to this board to answer any questions about quality control. My opinions of course.

Talyn

PS: I have no affiliation with IAI, DSA or ARS other than being a humble consumer of FAL stuff in central Idaho.

DJL · February 16, 2001, 15:37

Hey Tayln you're not alone. I've had my IAI M444 for about a month now and my experience's mirror yours. I only paid $800.00 for mine.shoots straight, has not hiccuped once and has a good park job, what more could you ask for in that price range (and NO,IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A SOUTH AFRICAN KIT GUN!!! unless you have poor eye sight)Don't get me wrong, I would like to have one of those DSA's also,damn nice looking gun....o.k I feel much better now.

BB · February 16, 2001, 15:57

Quote:

Originally posted by FWRA:
Hmm. When did you buy your DSa for that price? They are now a darn site more that that. If you can buy a new DSA Standard Rifle for $1300 you are doing good, and then add the cost of the bipod "upgrade".

These ARE a heck of a buy at $995! ;-)
If you can order me several at your super price, please do....

Warm Regards,
Mark Powell
FWRA

Mine is a kit built from DSA and Steyr parts by Dave Gustafson at AFR in '98. No, $995 is not a deal for a bone-stock parts gun, sorry.

Talyn · February 16, 2001, 16:00

DJL,

Glad to hear another positive report on the M444. My comments are not ment to slam usmc326 personally, and I hope they're not taken that way. Matter of fact I totally agreed with him earlier on the review forum of his report on the FAL PSG1 grip that Dan at VOW is selling.

I too would like to add a DSA StG Type 2 to my small collection. That receiver does look cool. Matter of fact I did consider DSA for my first purchase but backed down due to their backlog, so I went with ARS.

I'm just tired of folks slamming something based on heresay or very minor things that are easily taken care of. My opinions of course.

Talyn

sparky · February 17, 2001, 17:24

BTT

tuber · February 17, 2001, 22:19

...If you go to the mfg forum,you'll see a Feb 1st post from DSA stating the specs for their FAL parts gun and a price of $795.

Painkiller · February 18, 2001, 00:47

I can also agree with the positive remarks about the M444.

I bought one of the 1st shipments ever to arrive at AIM Surplus. Never even heard of one before that day when I held it. Just kind of stumbled in and said, "hey, what's that?". Looked very good except for the "beat to hell" handguard. I even ended up getting one with a gas adjusment nut that worked flawlessly without any lubing.

I guess your mileage may vary but, for me, the M444 was a much better deal for the price than the $1000 DSA is asking for their parts gun. Although I will admit, I plan on getting one of the DSA's as well.

blacklab · February 18, 2001, 08:10

Those DSA parts guns are $795 - not $1000. I just bought one for $795 + whatever shipping is, maybe $15 + $20 for my dealer. I had my dealer give them the ok to let me pay them direct. About $830 total.

FWRA · February 18, 2001, 11:09

Quote:

Originally posted by blacklab:
Those DSA parts guns are $795 - not $1000. I just bought one for $795 + whatever shipping is, maybe $15 + $20 for my dealer. I had my dealer give them the ok to let me pay them direct. About $830 total.

That $795 is dealer cost. Retail IS $995.
At the $995 retail price that most folks will pay, it's still a great deal vs. the $1500 + of the top line SA58's. If you have a dealer willing to transfer one of these rifles for $20 you are lucky. Any dealer who specializes
in this type of rifle will charge you a price closer to retail to cover the costs of staying in business.

Ten years ago we had literally thousands more licensed dealers than we do today and the numbers are dwindling every month. Retail store fronts (rent), equipment costs, inventory costs and the list goes on and on.

To "imbed" the $795 dealer cost, posted by DSA, in your mind will disappoint most of you when it comes time to buy one of these fine rifles from your local dealer.

I sure can't afford to sell them anywhere close to that. :-)

Warm Regards,
Mark Powell

blacklab · February 18, 2001, 12:55

I have known my dealer for many years and he owns the biggest gun shop in my area.He does NOT specialize in military style weapons though he does have a Bushie on the rack now but rather more towards a "sporting" line of guns;hunting shotguns and a complete line of Glock pistols and such. The guns he stocks are indeed overpriced and I have never bought a gun at retail from him.What his feeling is is if he stocks a gun actually in his store he sells it for full retail. If he orders you one or you order one yourself and need him to take delivery ONLY and do the paper work its $20 for his friends.He does NOT do this for Joe Public and he would'nt do it for me if I wanted 10 of them at that price but he doesnt mind helping friends with getting dealer price on a few guns every year for themselves. Sorry to imply that was retail price.

FWRA · February 18, 2001, 13:48

Quote:

Originally posted by blacklab:
The guns he stocks are indeed overpriced and I have never bought a gun at retail from him.

If he orders you one or you order one yourself and need him to take delivery ONLY and do the paper work its $20 for his friends.He does NOT do this for Joe Public and he would'nt do it for me if I wanted 10 of them at that price but he doesnt mind helping friends with getting dealer price on a few guns every year for themselves. Sorry to imply that was retail price.

I understood that. Maybe you should buy one at retail price once in a great while. Might just help to keep him in business there and as a "Thank You" for helping you to aquire guns at cost. :-) I do it for friends too, on occasion, but I sure wouldn't want them "telling the world" on the internet. Sure wouldn't give my other customers a warm and fuzzy feeling about doing business with me.

Nice to have a friend in the gun business, but that friendship should work both ways. Buy one from him at retail as a "thanks" for the priviledge. ;-)

Just the rantings of an old man.... :-)

Warmest Regards,
Mark Powell
FWRA
A licensed gun dealer....

sparky · February 18, 2001, 15:28

You guys that keep harping on the retail price must all be dealers. I have no problem with you making a living but DSA made us this offer. There are really not that many members on this board that your market for this gun is gone. You can buy as many guns as you want to presale or stock for your regular customers. I have made thousands of dollars of retail purchases at my local dealers but the hundred or so members that will buy this gun direct will come out ahead saving around $200.00. The members are but a small dedicated market that contribute by buying from suppliers and paying smith fees doing our job to fuel the economy. Thanks DSA for making the small man a once in a lifetime chance at a great deal. Then I had extra money to order mags and extras which I did from DSA. Also I dont think buying a century or a IMI M444 and having to buy DSA parts after the gun buy or paying a smith to fix a new gun is for me. I will save my money to have Gunplumber make a carbine out of my DSA STG 58 $795.00 + $15.00 shipping + $10.00 to dealer.
By the way the reason that dealers numbers are down is a direct result of the war on them by the ATF!!! And any income that I can make over no income such as making $20.00 to $25.00 for paper work is better than no income. I am a self employed contractor.

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited February 18, 2001).]

blacklab · February 18, 2001, 15:49

Our friendship extends to other interests that make it a "two-way" street as far as doing favors for each other..thats what friends do for each other. Just because I don't pay him retail for my firearms does'nt mean I don't repay his generosity in like form. I should have made that clear perhaps.As far as blabbing it all over the Net, I think anyone here reading this could do better than retail on those guns if he/she tried. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so but then again your point of supporting local stocking dealers is most certainly valid and I support that myself.

sparky · February 18, 2001, 16:12

Blacklab you have nothing to be sorry for this offer was made by DSA. We would be fools for not taking a once in a lifetime offer. As in my post above I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on retail sales most below resale but at the dealers asking price. Unless this is your first buy I am sure you have to. Go for it make the buy and enjoy the investment as you do not get this chance in todays dog eat dog world very often. And as far as blabbing on the web I enjoy the inpowerment I get from being able to tell my experiances good or bad and it greatly helps our interest to have the web like when we are getting the shaft like the guy at the gunsrus buy. Dealers please get busy with your customer base and leave the members alone.

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited February 18, 2001).]

Ropes4u · February 18, 2001, 17:52

The local pawnshop charges 10$ for a transfer.. but his case if different from a Gunshop I suppose. I have yet to decide if I will get one or not. . . I really want a wood stocked version and am hoping it will soon be announced..

Ropes

Painkiller · February 19, 2001, 03:48

I will HAVE to pay retail for the DSA. Like I said, $1000. There isn't a soul in my area that owns a gunshop that will sell it to me for his cost.

Floyd · February 19, 2001, 09:45

What kind of accuracy can be expected of the new DSA Stg-58's?

I heard the Type 2 is a stronger receiver designed for the stresses of full auto. Is this true?

------------------
NRA Endowment Life member; Kentucky Colonel; "United we stand, divided we fall"

sparky · February 19, 2001, 10:02

Painkiller have you tried the FFL search at www.gunbroker.com they list dealers by area code or zip code and show dealers and there fees. In my area several between $10.00 and $25.00 and some do not even have a shop they just do transfers. You shouldnt say no one will unless you have tried.

blacklab · February 19, 2001, 10:40

I agree with Sparky. If you look around there are alternatives to getting hit full retail. Auction Arms has the same service. Many FFL's listed by geographic area who will do a transfer for very little. Look around.

blacklab · February 20, 2001, 09:51

I just talked to Susie at DSA to add a few mags to my STG58 type II kit gun that I ordered friday. She told my I already have my name on a rifle and it will ship this friday! She also mentioned they made 20 guns yesterday so they must be gearing up to move alot of these kit guns. What great customer service they have at DSA. I'am very happy with the way DSA has handled my order.

[This message has been edited by blacklab (edited February 20, 2001).]

February 14, 2001, 13:53	#1
FWRA Registered FALaholic #: 24 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio Posts: 4,527	DSA SA58 parts gun..OH MY GOD! (photos) These were taken hastily and the pictures don't do these rifles justice. Just wanted to get these up quick. They came coated in lube and I never took the time to clean them. No matter. These are fantastic SA58's at a bargain price at $995! I like 'em better than the top line guns! (sorry DSA, these are spectacular! ;-) I'll also go on record to say that, contrary to some folks comments, I also still really like the IAI M444's. Two different FAL's, both parts guns, and of course the DSA is the Cadillac of the two but for $849 retail the IAI M444 is still a great buy. It's all about great choices! Let me introduce you to two of my new best friends: Wall shot of 2 DSA's (top and bottom) and M444: Closer comparison of the SA58 and the M444: SA58 rt side Type II closeup: __________________ FWRA I'm very pleased with each advancing year. It stems back to when I was forty. I was a bit upset about reaching that milestone, but an older friend consoled me. 'Don't complain about growing old - many, many people do not have that privilege.' Earl Warren (1891 - 1974), Chief Justice

February 14, 2001, 14:09	#2
FWRA Registered FALaholic #: 24 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio Posts: 4,527	Part two, photos. Here are a few more: Left side Type II closeup: Front sight: SA58 view: That's all for now. These are superb STG 58's and the Type II receiver is one bad lookin' momma! Warm Regards, Mark Powell FWRA __________________ FWRA I'm very pleased with each advancing year. It stems back to when I was forty. I was a bit upset about reaching that milestone, but an older friend consoled me. 'Don't complain about growing old - many, many people do not have that privilege.' Earl Warren (1891 - 1974), Chief Justice

February 14, 2001, 14:31	#5
Bill Woodbury Registered FALaholic #: 2497 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Phoenix AZ USA Posts: 34	w Last edited by Bill Woodbury; February 24, 2003 at 23:45.

February 14, 2001, 15:32	#8
Rule .308 Registered FALaholic #: 51 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: fountain valley, ca Posts: 450	Hey Mark, Are the hand guards on the DSA gun crinkle coated? Rule .308 __________________ Rule .308

February 14, 2001, 16:20	#10
Templar Registered FALaholic #: 53 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Richmond, VA, Capital of the CSA Posts: 25	Very cool Mark, thanks for the pics! I'll be ordering my Type 2 on Monday from DSA! Thanks again! __________________ "For so long as a hundred of us remain alive, we will never in any degree be subject to the Dominion of the English, since it is not for Glory, or Riches, or Honor we fight, but for Liberty Alone which no Good man loses but with his Life." Declaration of Arbroath 1320.

February 14, 2001, 14:11	#3
Nwfal Registered FALaholic #: 1837 Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 28	They look betiful!! the pictures earlier had the finish look more grey then charcoal. Are they charcoal finished in color?

February 14, 2001, 15:02	#7
fuatos Registered FALaholic #: 1731 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: UT Posts: 261	Looks like mine. I am very happy with the DSA Parts Guns. Very good value and darn it, they shoot straight to boot!!! fuatos

February 14, 2001, 17:09	#11
Farmer from Hell Registered FALaholic #: 171 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: The "free" state Maryland Posts: 1,751	So whats the wholesale price on these? Makes me rethink my STG kit build idea. FfH ------------------ What part of *Shall not be Infringed* dont you understand pinhead? [This message has been edited by Farmer from Hell (edited February 14, 2001).] __________________ Its good to be alive and not crappin in a bag. Anthony Bourdain Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post. Stewie Griffin "Family Guy" The trouble with the world is that everybody in it is about three drinks behind. Humphrey Bogart Mason Dixon FAL Collectors Association

February 14, 2001, 20:38	#12
Templar Registered FALaholic #: 53 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Richmond, VA, Capital of the CSA Posts: 25	$795.00. You can't build a kit at that price with DSA internals and a DSA receiver and an excellent kit + re-park. You just can't. __________________ "For so long as a hundred of us remain alive, we will never in any degree be subject to the Dominion of the English, since it is not for Glory, or Riches, or Honor we fight, but for Liberty Alone which no Good man loses but with his Life." Declaration of Arbroath 1320.

February 15, 2001, 01:32	#13
DeanP Registered FALaholic #: 2666 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Dallas,TexasUSA Posts: 92	995.00 retail price plus sales tax Yes you can build one as cheap. You will not get a discount from DSA

February 15, 2001, 01:46	#14
FALbert Registered FALaholic #: 2307 Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 260	I MUST HAVE ONE (or two, or three) __________________ "All might be free if they valued freedom, and defended it as they should." --Samuel Adams

February 15, 2001, 01:52	#15
Enquiring Minds Registered FALaholic #: 209 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: "The Venice of America"... FLL... Posts: 4,156	The Commandment against "coveting", that's just wives, right? Tell me which DSA you're going to marry so I can do some heavy coveting of the other one! __________________ "We live in a gangster state, and our days of laughing at other countries are over." --Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone

February 15, 2001, 02:03	#17
sparky Registered FALaholic #: 2542 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Oklahoma USA Posts: 1,626	Dean P $795.00 + $15.00 shipping + $10.00 to my FFL. its a done deal.

February 15, 2001, 03:53	#18
Talyn Registered FALaholic #: 1702 Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,154	FWRA, Nice looking FALs (DSA STG's & M444). I definitely like "different" look of the Type II receivers. I just might have to add one to keep my ARS STG and M444 company. Ditto Mark on your comments regarding the M444. Mines just fine and looks just like the pics you post. By the way, I just don't get where some folks think the M444 is made from South African R1 kits. Mine sure isn't. The very minor bumps and bruises (i.e. scratched handguards & tight gas collars)are easily taken care of. I think we have some great choices in the three (+ Entreprise Arms)entry-level FALs in this price range. I guess depending on your budget and wants, check things out before you buy. My experience and opinions of course. Talyn __________________ NRA Life Member "Those without swords can still die upon them" An armed country is a free country. If guns kill people I can blame my pencil for causing misspelled words.

February 15, 2001, 14:50	#19
sparky Registered FALaholic #: 2542 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Oklahoma USA Posts: 1,626	Could the M444 be from the Imbel guns is just fate that the group buy guns and the IMI M444 come from Houston?

February 15, 2001, 15:52	#20
Talyn Registered FALaholic #: 1702 Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,154	Sparky, I think a week or so ago someone said the group buy kits were coming from IAI. At least I recall a post to that affect. Those getting a gun built from these kits will get a rifle that will look just like an M444 on the outside, except for whatever US muzzle break is put on. The Moses or Hesse brakes seem to look just like the factory flash hider. Of course internally the same parts (i.e. fire control group, gas piston, etc.) would need to be substituted for US equivalents. Add a DSA handguard and pistol grip, or grip from Dan at VOW, and you're ready to rock-n-roll as per 922r. Add in refinishing if needed. Talyn __________________ NRA Life Member "Those without swords can still die upon them" An armed country is a free country. If guns kill people I can blame my pencil for causing misspelled words.

February 15, 2001, 16:29	#21
Paul Registered FALaholic #: 1707 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 33	Just beautiful! I'm looking for my first FAL this weekend and it looks like these DSA rifles are the best of both worlds - great part guns and DSA receivers. __________________ Enjoying the Second Amendment, One fine firearm at a time!

February 16, 2001, 01:36	#23
tunashark Registered FALaholic #: 624 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Greenland or Florida, depending on the month Posts: 603	What kind of muzzle brakes are on the end of those DSA's? Did some of those new ones sneak out or are those TAPCO's? How about a pic or two from that angle? Enough butt shots, how about some full frontal? I'm about to build a full length StG but I haven't decided on muzzle device yet and I'm waiting to compare TAPCO to DSA. __________________ "Well, in the first place an armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. ... But gunfighting has a strong biological use. We do not have enough things that kill off the weak and the stupid these days. But to stay alive as an armed citizen a man has to be either quick with his wits or with his hands, preferably both. It's a good thing." Robert Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon, 1948 WTB: anything from Hawes Firearms Co. http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member1115.png

February 16, 2001, 02:45	#24
usmc326 Registered FALaholic #: 202 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: MN, USA Posts: 1,322	The DSA parts rifle is definitely the best buy, obviously meant to compete with the IAI 444. The early 444's evaluations were good, then IAI apparently hired the assemblers from Century. The latest evaluation, by Dan @ Vow, has shown the IAI to need work, parts replaced(peeling finish on gas piston, & shoddy installation of HESSE t/s/h), & shoddily refinished furniture. So the current 444's require spending more money & time than the DSA costs(out of the box), & the DSA is ready to shoot. Plus, DSA will be around longer than IAI, and we know DSA's good repair & warranty track record. A tough choice...I think not. The only good deal on the Chilean Imbels is the Kits, as WE control parts choice & build quality. Talyn: no offense taken, discussion with other viewpoints is what this board is for. To come as close to DSA's $795 dealer price vs. $995 retail, won't be found at gun shows. Instead go to: www.shotgunnews.com and click on FFL dealers. Check your State for the FFL's near you, then click on them. That'll take you to their fee for handling a transfer. Most are $10-$30, but a few are $50 or even 10%. If they don't have a fee listed then call first. [This message has been edited by usmc326 (edited February 18, 2001).]

February 16, 2001, 06:59	#25
Wobblin' Goblin Registered FALaholic #: 974 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: CT Posts: 25	I gotta tell you those DSA parts guns sure look tantalizing for the price. Thanks for posting the pictures. ------------------ The Wobblin' Goblin has spoken. __________________ The Wobblin' Goblin has spoken.

February 16, 2001, 12:47	#26
bluejay8 Registered FALaholic #: 2530 Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 1	What is the TYPE 2 RECEIVER? I haven't seen a description of this at the DSA SITE or elsewhere. I couldn't tell the differences in the photo. Previous poster said Type 2 was the way to go-but why? $800 Price-- How do we obtain this price? Previous poster said it was for members. Info appreciated .

February 16, 2001, 12:55	#27
Wadman Registered FALaholic #: 1095 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: North East Illinois Posts: 2,820	Bluejay, if you scroll up to the pictures that are closeups of the receiver, you'll see what a Type II looks like. A Type I has lightening cuts milled along the bottom edge of the upper receiver that forms a radius as it moves from back to front, curving down towards the mag well. A Type II receiver is the same except there is an additional radius (or scallop) at the very back of the receiver where it meets the backplate. __________________ The low road is frequently a four lane highway with no speed limit. Help Save the Kitties

February 16, 2001, 15:12	#28
Talyn Registered FALaholic #: 1702 Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,154	usmc326 and the other 2-3 M444 haters, I think it's good we have a choice between three mid priced FAL's, including the Entreprise products. I seem to recall posts on this board where folks have had problems with Entreprise and DSA guns, so nothing is perfect. My M444, bought 3 weeks ago, did not have the dremel work as observed by Dan at VOW. Other than cleaning & lubing the gas adjustment collar, replacing the gas piston and handguard my M444 has not been a problem. If I would have seen dremel work, sand, peeling paint, sanded receivers, etc. on my gun it never would have went home. It meets my need for a general use working FAL to complement my "ARS" StG. By the way, I may eventually get one of the new DSA Type 2 "kit" guns. However, it will cost me extra $$ to swap out the steel handguard and stock, for synthetic handguards and a Penguin humpback stock, because "I" don't like the original parts, regardless of parts count. Please don't take that as a condemnation of the DSA or their guns. I've bought "plenty" of their products. Just personal preference. My monitoring of posts regarding the M444, both before and after my purchase, indicates more postive reviews of the M444 than negative. There seems to be only "one" real bad review out there. If someone wants a mid-range FAL let them look at all the possibilites before a purchase. I hope you don't buy everything based on what you hear without checking it out first hand. I guess if you have proof that Century folks are building M444's you should post it. Also, it would be great if someone could get IAI on to this board to answer any questions about quality control. My opinions of course. Talyn PS: I have no affiliation with IAI, DSA or ARS other than being a humble consumer of FAL stuff in central Idaho. __________________ NRA Life Member "Those without swords can still die upon them" An armed country is a free country. If guns kill people I can blame my pencil for causing misspelled words.

February 16, 2001, 15:37	#29
DJL Registered FALaholic #: 1197 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Keller, Texas, USA Posts: 285	Hey Tayln you're not alone. I've had my IAI M444 for about a month now and my experience's mirror yours. I only paid $800.00 for mine.shoots straight, has not hiccuped once and has a good park job, what more could you ask for in that price range (and NO,IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A SOUTH AFRICAN KIT GUN!!! unless you have poor eye sight)Don't get me wrong, I would like to have one of those DSA's also,damn nice looking gun....o.k I feel much better now. __________________ “The hand that gives is always above the hand that receives.”

February 16, 2001, 16:00	#31
Talyn Registered FALaholic #: 1702 Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,154	DJL, Glad to hear another positive report on the M444. My comments are not ment to slam usmc326 personally, and I hope they're not taken that way. Matter of fact I totally agreed with him earlier on the review forum of his report on the FAL PSG1 grip that Dan at VOW is selling. I too would like to add a DSA StG Type 2 to my small collection. That receiver does look cool. Matter of fact I did consider DSA for my first purchase but backed down due to their backlog, so I went with ARS. I'm just tired of folks slamming something based on heresay or very minor things that are easily taken care of. My opinions of course. Talyn __________________ NRA Life Member "Those without swords can still die upon them" An armed country is a free country. If guns kill people I can blame my pencil for causing misspelled words.

February 17, 2001, 17:24	#32
sparky Registered FALaholic #: 2542 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Oklahoma USA Posts: 1,626	BTT

February 17, 2001, 22:19	#33
tuber Registered FALaholic #: 2070 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: st albans VT Posts: 17	...If you go to the mfg forum,you'll see a Feb 1st post from DSA stating the specs for their FAL parts gun and a price of $795.

February 18, 2001, 00:47	#34
Painkiller Registered FALaholic #: 2119 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Lizards Breath Gultch Posts: 28	I can also agree with the positive remarks about the M444. I bought one of the 1st shipments ever to arrive at AIM Surplus. Never even heard of one before that day when I held it. Just kind of stumbled in and said, "hey, what's that?". Looked very good except for the "beat to hell" handguard. I even ended up getting one with a gas adjusment nut that worked flawlessly without any lubing. I guess your mileage may vary but, for me, the M444 was a much better deal for the price than the $1000 DSA is asking for their parts gun. Although I will admit, I plan on getting one of the DSA's as well. __________________ "...it's an excellent day for an exorcism".

February 18, 2001, 08:10	#35
blacklab Registered FALaholic #: 2634 Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 78	Those DSA parts guns are $795 - not $1000. I just bought one for $795 + whatever shipping is, maybe $15 + $20 for my dealer. I had my dealer give them the ok to let me pay them direct. About $830 total. __________________ The Difficult we can do right now, the Impossible will take a couple days.

February 18, 2001, 12:55	#37
blacklab Registered FALaholic #: 2634 Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 78	I have known my dealer for many years and he owns the biggest gun shop in my area.He does NOT specialize in military style weapons though he does have a Bushie on the rack now but rather more towards a "sporting" line of guns;hunting shotguns and a complete line of Glock pistols and such. The guns he stocks are indeed overpriced and I have never bought a gun at retail from him.What his feeling is is if he stocks a gun actually in his store he sells it for full retail. If he orders you one or you order one yourself and need him to take delivery ONLY and do the paper work its $20 for his friends.He does NOT do this for Joe Public and he would'nt do it for me if I wanted 10 of them at that price but he doesnt mind helping friends with getting dealer price on a few guns every year for themselves. Sorry to imply that was retail price. __________________ The Difficult we can do right now, the Impossible will take a couple days.

February 18, 2001, 15:28	#39
sparky Registered FALaholic #: 2542 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Oklahoma USA Posts: 1,626	You guys that keep harping on the retail price must all be dealers. I have no problem with you making a living but DSA made us this offer. There are really not that many members on this board that your market for this gun is gone. You can buy as many guns as you want to presale or stock for your regular customers. I have made thousands of dollars of retail purchases at my local dealers but the hundred or so members that will buy this gun direct will come out ahead saving around $200.00. The members are but a small dedicated market that contribute by buying from suppliers and paying smith fees doing our job to fuel the economy. Thanks DSA for making the small man a once in a lifetime chance at a great deal. Then I had extra money to order mags and extras which I did from DSA. Also I dont think buying a century or a IMI M444 and having to buy DSA parts after the gun buy or paying a smith to fix a new gun is for me. I will save my money to have Gunplumber make a carbine out of my DSA STG 58 $795.00 + $15.00 shipping + $10.00 to dealer. By the way the reason that dealers numbers are down is a direct result of the war on them by the ATF!!! And any income that I can make over no income such as making $20.00 to $25.00 for paper work is better than no income. I am a self employed contractor. [This message has been edited by sparky (edited February 18, 2001).]

February 18, 2001, 15:49	#40
blacklab Registered FALaholic #: 2634 Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 78	Our friendship extends to other interests that make it a "two-way" street as far as doing favors for each other..thats what friends do for each other. Just because I don't pay him retail for my firearms does'nt mean I don't repay his generosity in like form. I should have made that clear perhaps.As far as blabbing it all over the Net, I think anyone here reading this could do better than retail on those guns if he/she tried. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so but then again your point of supporting local stocking dealers is most certainly valid and I support that myself. __________________ The Difficult we can do right now, the Impossible will take a couple days.

February 18, 2001, 16:12	#41
sparky Registered FALaholic #: 2542 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Oklahoma USA Posts: 1,626	Blacklab you have nothing to be sorry for this offer was made by DSA. We would be fools for not taking a once in a lifetime offer. As in my post above I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on retail sales most below resale but at the dealers asking price. Unless this is your first buy I am sure you have to. Go for it make the buy and enjoy the investment as you do not get this chance in todays dog eat dog world very often. And as far as blabbing on the web I enjoy the inpowerment I get from being able to tell my experiances good or bad and it greatly helps our interest to have the web like when we are getting the shaft like the guy at the gunsrus buy. Dealers please get busy with your customer base and leave the members alone. [This message has been edited by sparky (edited February 18, 2001).]

February 18, 2001, 17:52	#42
Ropes4u Registered FALaholic #: 1844 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 85	The local pawnshop charges 10$ for a transfer.. but his case if different from a Gunshop I suppose. I have yet to decide if I will get one or not. . . I really want a wood stocked version and am hoping it will soon be announced.. Ropes __________________ "Follow the path of the unsafe, Independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost." -- Thomas J. Watson

February 19, 2001, 03:48	#43
Painkiller Registered FALaholic #: 2119 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Lizards Breath Gultch Posts: 28	I will HAVE to pay retail for the DSA. Like I said, $1000. There isn't a soul in my area that owns a gunshop that will sell it to me for his cost. __________________ "...it's an excellent day for an exorcism".