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Old December 31, 2002, 14:38   #1
c east
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BATF and receivers

Just ordered 10 of the coonan type 1 ..The FFl told me I am sure to get a visit...I love to build these things and I'm retiring next year and want plenty to work on...May not ever sell any but may someday...Don't want to manufacture any and when asked to make one for a friend I told him to use my tools and make one himself...What do I need to do When/if they come around?...If I know they are comming I can have a lawer here with very little effort...What do you think?
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Old December 31, 2002, 15:59   #2
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If they do come...they will probably do so in the next year.....you probably will just have the receivers in your safe.....unbuilt! Just tell them that you bought them for an investment, or replacement for your guns! There ain't shit they can do about it!

just make sure that you do not have any full-auto sears from your kits laying around! They will probably haul you off if you do!
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Old December 31, 2002, 17:29   #3
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Thanks That is Logical and easy...Later
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Old December 31, 2002, 17:34   #4
c east
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Yea I didn't thinks about the sears...I keep them because I never throw anything out..I thought with only semiauto recievers it would be alright...Out they go...Hate to feed auto guns anyway...
Ever load up 500 308 mags? I did it by hand in 1966 about by third week in the army...When they told my what the detail was I thought I had died and gone to heaven...I changed my mind after the 20th Mag...God was I dumb...Thanks
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Old December 31, 2002, 23:04   #5
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Maybe I missed something, how would the ATF know you bought 10 receivers unless your dealer told them ?

All 10 should be on one 4473 if they are transfored at one time.
They are not handguns so no multiple handgun report to fill out.

Now if the ATF come to see the dealers books and see 10 receivers going to you they may ask the dealer about it
he should just say you are a collector.

I would not worry about the ATF on something like this.
Now if one of the receivers shows up used in a crime
then get ready for a visit.

I have been a FFL dealer for 20 years and the ATF has never
showed up at my door. Talked to them a few times on the phone
and they where very helpful.

Enjoy building your FAL's.

Court in Fl.
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Old January 01, 2003, 01:14   #6
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FFLs are required to report to the ATF any time someone buys more than 1 gun at a time.
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Old January 01, 2003, 09:48   #7
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Quote:
FFLs are required to report to the ATF any time someone buys more than 1 gun at a time.
Not. And I quote:

Reports of multiple sales of two or more handguns sold at one time or during any five consecutive business days are also required to be submitted to ATF. 18 U.S.C. 923(g)(3).

The only time the BATF MAY get involved is if they make a compliance inspection and notice the sale of the 10 receivers. The seller is not required to report the sale.

Court has it right.
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Old January 01, 2003, 11:01   #8
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I don't think the sear makes any difference if you have them laying around. They are not a restricted item. As long as the receiver is not cut you can't do anything with them.

Of course I'm not a lawyer and don't want to be one.

James
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Old January 02, 2003, 10:39   #9
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James,

The possesion of the Full-auto parts could be construed as an act of building a full-auto weapon, especially if you do not have a class 3 weapon....if you did have a class 3 then the parts could be for replacement on that gun. The BATF will freak out about full-auto parts. They might not would say anything in another situation, but since his FFL probably did report his large purchase....I would make sure that they do not think you are manufacturing Machineguns!
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Old January 02, 2003, 11:03   #10
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The FFL told me his stuff is due to be inspected in Mar...He also told me he does not report the sales ,but they are sure to notice..
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Old January 02, 2003, 11:16   #11
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Nothing to worry about! Just be ready for a visit in March or April......and have those sears out of the house! Give them to a friend to keep....in case of any future National emergency.......or for when the Supreme Court rules that since the Second Ammendment gives us an Individual right to bear arms and the Federal government has no right to ban any type of gun. If the NFA of '68 is declared unconstitutional.....then we can build full-auto guns again....legally! You would want your parts back then!
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Old January 02, 2003, 14:00   #12
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Pardon my ignorance, I've only rarely interacted with the BATF, but unless they are packing a warrant, what is their authority in his house? Can they even force him to show them the receivers at all? Where is the legal limit of their authority? I understand that FFL's give up a lot of their privacy to the BATF, but I don't recall that private citizens do, regardless of what they order by mail.

Someone posted a while back about having called the press to his house when the FBI came to interview him during the "DC sniper" period (he owned a .223 and somehow they knew it). FBI agents were pissed. Got a camcorder? Tape the interview if they talk to you (hopefully on your front porch with the door between you).
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Old January 02, 2003, 14:27   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by geerhed
Pardon my ignorance, I've only rarely interacted with the BATF, but unless they are packing a warrant, what is their authority in his house? Can they even force him to show them the receivers at all? Where is the legal limit of their authority? I understand that FFL's give up a lot of their privacy to the BATF, but I don't recall that private citizens do, regardless of what they order by mail.
You are correct. Unless they have a warrant, they have no authority to enter your house without your permission.

Quote:
Originally posted by geerhed
Someone posted a while back about having called the press to his house when the FBI came to interview him during the "DC sniper" period (he owned a .223 and somehow they knew it). FBI agents were pissed. Got a camcorder? Tape the interview if they talk to you (hopefully on your front porch with the door between you).
An excellent idea. Tyrants prefer to work in secret. Also have a lawyer on hand if the show up at an appointed time. Simply refuse to let them in if they don't have a warrant and whatever you do, DON'T TALK TO THEM. Read this link: http://www.radio887.com/public.html


As for the auto sears and the FA ejector blocks, don't worry. The semi-auto FAL is NOT considered "readily convertible" to FA.
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Old January 06, 2003, 10:23   #14
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When you are talking about the Alphabet Crew......Always be worried! They will have a warrant to see the guns.....and if you think that the agents that come will know a FAL from a G-3...then you are fooling yourself. The agents will not know anything about wheather a FAL is "readily convertable" to FA or not. They might not even know enough about FALs to know what a sear is.....but if you get a gung-ho agent who brings a diagram of a FAL and wants to impress his boss......then you might be in for some trouble if they find a box of sears!

It is best to be cautious when dealing with the BATF! They want to justify their existance......and arrests do that!
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Old January 06, 2003, 10:57   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by James
I don't think the sear makes any difference if you have them laying around. They are not a restricted item. As long as the receiver is not cut you can't do anything with them.

Of course I'm not a lawyer and don't want to be one.

James
Absolutely right. Stick your sears and ejector blocks in a drawer in the garage. No sear cut receiver, no foul. M16 parts+ AR-15 lower is a different story.

If they show up, be polite, but tell them only you purchased the receivers for repair and replacement on personal firearms. If they ask to see them inform them you are willing to help them in their investigation and you will be happy to show them anything specifically listed on a warrent. Oh, they don't have a warrent? Send 'em packing!

If you volunteer to show them while they are in your home, anything they see or find while you do so can be held against you!!
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Old January 06, 2003, 22:07   #16
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Re: BATF and receivers

Quote:
Originally posted by c east
...Don't want to manufacture any and when asked to make one for a friend......
c east, technically you are not "manufacturing" or "making" guns. The receiver is the gun as far as the law is concerned, whether it is capable of firing a shot or not, and that part required a federal license to manufacture. If you refer to our hobby as "manufacturing guns" in the presence of a gov't official, you could get yourself into unnecessary legal trouble.

That's how I understand it, anyway.
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Old January 06, 2003, 22:25   #17
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Thanks...never thought something I love to do so much would get me nervous...weird times.
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Old January 07, 2003, 01:14   #18
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You can put more than one gun on a single 4473
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Old January 07, 2003, 01:27   #19
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While it is not required for the dealer to use more than one form to record multiple firearms purchases (ie there is space for I believe 5 or so firearms to be listed on the form), some dealers themselves require you to fill out 1 form for each and every single gun you purchase.

Yeah, it's kind of silly but I guess it makes for easy record keeping for the ffl (no missing any firearms on the form, etc).

It's not an ATF rule, it's a dealer preference in how they do things.

c east: to my knowledge the FFL need only make a single standard NIC's call to transfer the receivers to you. Nics will ask for 'how many' 'rifles' are being purchased to which the dealer will answer 10. You may or may not get a visit as a result.
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Old January 07, 2003, 02:44   #20
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Re: BATF and receivers

Quote:
Originally posted by c east
Just ordered 10 of the coonan type 1 ..The FFl told me I am sure to get a visit...I love to build these things and I'm retiring next year and want plenty to work on...May not ever sell any but may someday...Don't want to manufacture any and when asked to make one for a friend I told him to use my tools and make one himself...What do I need to do When/if they come around?...If I know they are comming I can have a lawer here with very little effort...What do you think?

C east, I know it sounds strange but something to keep in mind, make sure you don't have 10 kits on the property at the same time as the recievers unless you have the required amount of US parts laying around also. According to the atf, if you have all the parts necessary to assemble the rifle whether the receiver is barreled or not it may be considered an assault weapon and as we all know, that's a no, no.
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Old January 07, 2003, 03:03   #21
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No entry without warrant, no talkee without lawyer.

While it is "illegal" to lie to Fed LEOs (unless you're an elected official), you CAN use THEIR favorite line in reply to anything they insist/persist in asking:

"I CAN NEITHER CONFIRM NOR DENY THAT"

"I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY"

"HERE'S MY ATTORNEY'S CARD, HE WORKS THE SAME HOURS YOU GUYS DO"

"DID YOU ENJOY YOUR DRIVE OUT HERE? LOVELY WEATHER WE'RE HAVING, EH?"


ps: buy your firearms, especially "EBRs", from low-volume dealers who aren't under frequent scrutiny from BATFoo... like Court in FL... I know a "kitchen table" FFL who has never seen the alphabets in 13 years, despite 3 address changes. He only sells to honest folks, so nothing ever traces back to him.
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Old January 07, 2003, 07:08   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by jaybob
You can put more than one gun on a single 4473
Of course! Look on the back. You can have several. I recently acquired 'several', and my dealer has no requirement to report that acquisition. But they ain't pistoles!


A separate 4473 was NOT required for each acquisition.
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Old January 08, 2003, 16:28   #23
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I stand corrected. PIG PILE on the Bear!
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Old January 08, 2003, 17:12   #24
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I think assembling a kit is also considered manufacturing. But, that does not matter as to be considered a "manufacturer" you must manufacture guns on a continuing basis for resale for pecuniary gain (profit).

You can manugfacture all the guns you want for personal use as long as those guns comply with all applicable laws (AW Ban, etc...) You can technically even sell those guns at a later date in order to buy more guns (enhancement of collection rule). But, doing so will probably get some unwanted scrutiny from the ATF. The only rules are:

1) Any Gun you manufacture must be legal (AW Ban, etc...), and
2) You cannot manufacture guns as a business. This is defined basically as manufacturing guns as a regular course of trade for resale as a means of pecuniary gain.

You could build an FAL for a friend if you wanted as long as it wasn't for pecuniary gain. But, this might tend to lead to issues with the ATF. So, generally I wouldn't manufacture guns for friends. I might help them manufacture their own OTOH.

I should also not that all other rules relating to possession apply. I.E. you cannot manufacture if you are a felon, etc...The law also reads that selling to terrorists meets the definition of "Manufacturer" regardless of profit. Then again, I'm sure noone here would be making guns for terrorists. Well, other than a certain PLO loving member that is...

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Old January 09, 2003, 20:27   #25
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I'm definitely not a lawyer but I found this link a while back which talks about the ATF going after an individual who owned a BAR and FAL. Of interest is the last bit of the case where the judge rules that the BAR was registered and it was only a clerical error, of one digit I believe, and that the FAL would require a significant amount of work to turn it into a "machine gun."

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.e.../us_v_1FAL.txt
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Old January 09, 2003, 21:30   #26
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Yep, the transcript makes the ATF witness look like an idiot. He tells the court that the FAL in question was a MGun because it was readily converted. Then, the Attorney for the Defendant showed them a shitload of ATF Approved guns that were alot easier to convert than the FAL in question.

He then had it explained that an FAL takes hours of precision work to convert to Full-Auto. while some of the other ATF-Approved guns could be converted by drilling a single hole (AR-15) or even changing a few parts (M1 Carbine).

In the end, the court used common sense and ruled that the FAL was not readily converted. The BAR issue was idiotic in the first place. The ATF screwed up and registered it with a 3 instead of an 8 as one of the digits or something like that. The court ruled that it was properly registered and the ATF had to fix their record.

Quote:
Originally posted by Adventurer_96
I'm definitely not a lawyer but I found this link a while back which talks about the ATF going after an individual who owned a BAR and FAL. Of interest is the last bit of the case where the judge rules that the BAR was registered and it was only a clerical error, of one digit I believe, and that the FAL would require a significant amount of work to turn it into a "machine gun."

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.e.../us_v_1FAL.txt
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Old January 09, 2003, 21:33   #27
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BTW, lawyers aren't cheap. So, if you have no use for the Auto Sears...Just toss them or sell them on E-Bay.
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Old January 10, 2003, 07:12   #28
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Their trash already...
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Old January 10, 2003, 09:18   #29
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I have more american parts that kits...So it should be Ok...may haul these kits to a friends place anyway as room is scarce and bring one kit at a time to work on...Having two kits apart at the same time is foolish...Ever noticed how STG 58 pins that hold the hammer and trigger are loose in an Imbel lower?
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Old January 12, 2003, 14:12   #30
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Re: Re: BATF and receivers

Quote:
Originally posted by TideWater 41009

c east, technically you are not "manufacturing" or "making" guns. The receiver is the gun as far as the law is concerned, whether it is capable of firing a shot or not, and that part required a federal license to manufacture. If you refer to our hobby as "manufacturing guns" in the presence of a gov't official, you could get yourself into unnecessary legal trouble.

That's how I understand it, anyway.
I'll try to clarify my position;
Barreling and headspacing a receiver is considered gunsmithing, not manufacturing. Unless you are constructing a receiver, you are not manufacturing a firearm.

Changing a stock, refinishing metal, or replacing a hammer, trigger and sear is also considered gunsmithing (at best), and not manufacturing.
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Old January 12, 2003, 18:39   #31
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Re: Re: Re: BATF and receivers

Quote:
Originally posted by TideWater 41009

I'll try to clarify my position;
Barreling and headspacing a receiver is considered gunsmithing, not manufacturing. Unless you are constructing a receiver, you are not manufacturing a firearm.

Changing a stock, refinishing metal, or replacing a hammer, trigger and sear is also considered gunsmithing (at best), and not manufacturing.
ATF defines taking a never-before built reciever, on which no excise tax has been paid, and building it into a complete firearm to be 'manufacturing' under the law.

Your regular Type 1 (dealer) FFL cannot legally order a box of 100 stripped receivers, get 100 parts kits, build them all into firearms and sell them as complete rifles. Only a Type 7 or Type 10 FFL can legally do this for resale - although a non-licensed person can do it for personal use.

If the receiver has already been part of a complete firearm, and excise tax was paid on that transaction, then subsequent reconfigurations are just gunsmithing.
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Old January 12, 2003, 19:15   #32
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Circuits, I stand corrected. I did not take into account the new receiver and excise tax.
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Old January 13, 2003, 21:26   #33
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Well, at least that makes a good story.

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Old January 15, 2003, 20:25   #34
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Re: Re: Re: Re: BATF and receivers

Quote:
Originally posted by Circuits


ATF defines taking a never-before built reciever, on which no excise tax has been paid, and building it into a complete firearm to be 'manufacturing' under the law.

Your regular Type 1 (dealer) FFL cannot legally order a box of 100 stripped receivers, get 100 parts kits, build them all into firearms and sell them as complete rifles. Only a Type 7 or Type 10 FFL can legally do this for resale - although a non-licensed person can do it for personal use.

If the receiver has already been part of a complete firearm, and excise tax was paid on that transaction, then subsequent reconfigurations are just gunsmithing.
Circuits, do you know the specific statute that states this. I understood it the way others have stated. The receiver is the firearm and it is imported with a serial number, excise tax paid, etc, and treated as such for transfers. They new receivers have been allowed to be imported for repair and/or replacement. Hence a kits receiver needs to be repaired and/or replaced. Therefore, a dealer could order the 100 receivers and kits and "assemble" them, not "manufacture" them into complete rifles, 922r compliant of course.
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Old January 15, 2003, 21:47   #35
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BATF and receivers

Excise tax is only paid on complete guns. A receiver has never had the excise tax paid on it. The excise tax is collected on the first sale after the gun is manufactured. This usually means that the Manufacturer pays the tax and adds it into the price.

Assembling guns for resale is considered manufacturing last I checked and requires a Type 07 (Manufacturer) FFL and payment of the Excise Tax.

FWIW, the Repair/Replacement wording is BS. Importers are required to mark such on their permits to get them approved. Some trade group suggested they mark their kits and receivers as such...to avoid any problems with the ATF. But, under the law you can use the kit for any legal purpose (including building). The importer is the only person limited by what he marked on the permit. I.E. If he says Repair/Replacement and Builds on them...he lied on the application which violates 922(a)(6) if I remember correctly.

Quote:
Originally posted by G3isMe


Circuits, do you know the specific statute that states this. I understood it the way others have stated. The receiver is the firearm and it is imported with a serial number, excise tax paid, etc, and treated as such for transfers. They new receivers have been allowed to be imported for repair and/or replacement. Hence a kits receiver needs to be repaired and/or replaced. Therefore, a dealer could order the 100 receivers and kits and "assemble" them, not "manufacture" them into complete rifles, 922r compliant of course.
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Old January 15, 2003, 21:55   #36
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Here is a simple explanation as I understand it:

1) You rebarrel an existing complete firearm...Gunsmithing. You are rebarreling/repairing a gun.

2) You do a complete makeover on a gun...Gunsmithing. You are still working on a gun that has already been built.

3) You assemble a gun from receiver and parts kit which has never had FET paid on it...Manufacturing. You are now building a complete gun (Firearm Definition 1(?)), not just working on an existing gun.

4) You finish an 80% Receiver. Manufacturing. You are making a Receiver which is a Firearm (Firearm Definition 2).

Basically, whenever you convert a gun from Definition 2 (Receiver) to Definition 1 (Weapon Capable of Discharging a Projectile)...the ATF considers it manufacturing. Same goes for converting a Title I Firearm to Title II (NFA) Configuration.

I'm not sure what rules apply if you buy the parts kit with receiver (Firearm Defintion 3(?)) on which FET has been paid. The ATF considers a kit and receiver when sold together to be a complete firearm for purposes of the Excise Tax.

Last edited by cc48510; January 15, 2003 at 21:58.
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Old January 16, 2003, 09:24   #37
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Here I go to the Batf site to start studying...Half of us here may be making lockers in Jail...
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Old January 17, 2003, 03:31   #38
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Originally posted by c east
Here I go to the Batf site to start studying...Half of us here may be making lockers in Jail...
Including all the companies here selling auto kits and semi receivers...by your legal definition anyway.

If it's illegal for you to buy/own, it's illegal for FAC(for example) to sell/transfer. The ONLY exemptions for ANY licensee pertain to approved .gov weapons, period.

My .02.

4 pages here...

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/Ultr...73&SID=1793165
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Old January 17, 2003, 09:48   #39
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"If it's illegal for you to buy/own, it's illegal for FAC(for example) to sell/transfer. The ONLY exemptions for ANY licensee pertain to approved .gov weapons, period."

That's why FAC won't sell a parts kit and a receiver at the same time to the same person.
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Old January 17, 2003, 09:58   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by msnyder
"If it's illegal for you to buy/own, it's illegal for FAC(for example) to sell/transfer. The ONLY exemptions for ANY licensee pertain to approved .gov weapons, period."

That's why FAC won't sell a parts kit and a receiver at the same time to the same person.
Is that due to "for replacement parts only" or "readily adaptable"?
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Old January 17, 2003, 10:11   #41
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"Is that due to "for replacement parts only" or "readily adaptable"?

I asked them once and the person I talked to didn't know why.
It might be due to the excise tax issue.

Last edited by msnyder; January 17, 2003 at 10:13.
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Old January 17, 2003, 10:21   #42
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I'd sure like to hear from FAC about that, or any other distributor like Dan's.

If these are considered "readily adaptable" even on the same premises as a semi receiver I'd think the BATF would've put 2 and 2 together a LONG time ago.

With that logic all the FAL and G3 kit builders like AZEX and ARS have in their possession an illegal "readily adaptable" machinegun EVERY time someone ships them a project to build.
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Old January 17, 2003, 12:31   #43
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"I'd sure like to hear from FAC about that, or any other distributor like Dan's.

If these are considered "readily adaptable" even on the same premises as a semi receiver I'd think the BATF would've put 2 and 2 together a LONG time ago.

With that logic all the FAL and G3 kit builders like AZEX and ARS have in their possession an illegal "readily adaptable" machinegun EVERY time someone ships them a project to build."

I don't think that is the reason they won't sell the receiver with the kit. I'm pretty sure it is the excise tax issue.
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Old January 17, 2003, 21:14   #44
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It's an excise tax issue. If they sell you all the parts required to build a complete firearm, that's considered a complete firearm by the ATF, and excise tax must be paid by the manufacturer.

The cite/reference for this is in the USC pertaining to excise tax paid by manufacturers on complete firearms and complete firearms kits.

No manufacturer can legally sell you a parts kit and a receiver on which to assemble it without paying excise tax on the sale. A dealer (non-manufacturer) cannot legally sell you both a receiver and a parts kit in the same transaction.

I have a manufacturing license (Type 7) - I will happily order a customer a receiver, or a parts kit. I cannot legally order both and deliver them in the same transaction without reporting it as manufacturing activity and paying excise tax on the sale/transfer price of the parts. If the customer brings the parts to me, having already taken possession of them, either from elsewhere, or in separate transactions through myself, then they are presenting me with a complete parts kit they've put together, and I can legally perform the gunsmithing work to assemble the kit for them without reporting it as manufacturing activity or paying excise tax on the value of the labor.
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Old January 17, 2003, 23:06   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Circuits
..........If the customer brings the parts to me, having already taken possession of them, either from elsewhere, or in separate transactions through myself, then they are presenting me with a complete parts kit they've put together, and I can legally perform the gunsmithing work to assemble the kit for them without reporting it as manufacturing activity or paying excise tax on the value of the labor.
So in this example are you assembling them, or manufacturing them? Or am I just splitting hairs. I guess my real question is what is the legality of a private citizen buying a couple of kits and receivers, building them, keeping them for awhile, and then sell them to "enhance" ones remaining gun collection? I think what gets everyone "nervous" about this is that the kits were in their former life full-auto assault rifles. If we were taking about a large and cheap supply of surplus Remington Model-4 deer rifle kits and cheap chinese receivers for them, most people probably wouldn't even give it a second thought. JMHO.
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Old January 18, 2003, 00:44   #46
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In the last example, I am assembling and not manufacturing, because under the law, the "manufacturing" took place when the customer acquired all the parts and the receiver necessary, and effectively did the manufacturing themself for personal use. I'm then just performing a gunsmithing service.

I could not order in a receiver and complete it on a parts kit for a customer without paying excise tax, since in that case, the first time the firearm was "manufactured" would be in my shop, and I'd be liable for the tax.

You can build as many legal rifles for yourself as you want, provided they're NOT being built for resale when you build them. If you then hang onto them for a reasonable period of time (I'd suggest at least a year and that you use them all as much as you can to show you built them for personal use and used them), then there should be nothing wrong with you later reselling them to further enhance your collection.
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Old February 17, 2003, 16:26   #47
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Old March 02, 2003, 04:23   #48
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50 bucks every single one of you guys know more about firearm laws than the average ATF agent. 100 bucks that at least 5 people on this forum know more about firearm law than any atf agent. 500 bucks that almost everyone on this forum knows more about firearms and firearm law than any antigun nut in congress.
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Old March 05, 2003, 18:31   #49
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Why bet on a sure thing???
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Old March 10, 2003, 07:28   #50
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Pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that a reciever manufacturer paid the excise tax on it when seeling it to an FFL . The law says a reciever is a firearm , it doesn't matter if it is built up or not. Now if you are a manufacturer with a tax number I was under the impression you could buy recievers without the excise tax but had to collect it when you sold it. Like purchasing any other supplies with a tax number. What is the Reg or Statute that covers this?
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