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Old December 08, 2017, 10:13   #1
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DSA warranty repair so far (Update #4 1/23/18)

Took my LMT made receiver shorty FAL in a month ago and picked it up the other day. Problem was not fixed. Went to the range and it was feeding issue after feeding issue. Was kind of pissed but I'm local so no big deal to drop it off again. Took a video of the issues and showed them. Bullet is being pushed into the case neck so I'm guessing it's a feed ramp issue. They took it back again without issue. Tried Austrian and DSA mags, happened with all of them (although much less with the Austrian ones. Hopefully they can make it right a second time. Luckily I can check to see if it's fixed without having to shoot it when I get it back (if it feeds, it's fixed. If it doesn't l, it's not)




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Old December 08, 2017, 10:16   #2
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And gun is on safe (did so after every malfunction), so no comments please lol
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Old December 08, 2017, 10:18   #3
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Barrel chamfer missing?
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Old December 08, 2017, 10:29   #4
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It kind of looks like the gas system is all the way open was it? Normaly the ftf as seen in the picture is mag induced. I saw you bring this in yesterday. I don't many 13" perm affix rifles with a fixed stock. Ether way we will get it fixed and if it's still there next week I will shoot it and fix it myself.
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Old December 08, 2017, 11:23   #5
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It kind of looks like the gas system is all the way open was it? Normaly the ftf as seen in the picture is mag induced. I saw you bring this in yesterday. I don't many 13" perm affix rifles with a fixed stock. Ether way we will get it fixed and if it's still there next week I will shoot it and fix it myself.
Getting it fixed quickly isn't a big deal, I know you guys had military contracts to fill and Uncle Sam is much more important (completely understand ) i haven't touched the gas system since I bought it, but the gas system wouldn't cause clambering/feeding issues when loading a fresh mag (the bolt is not feeding the round, which is the issue). It looks like either the feedramps are out of spec or there's an issue with the bolt. When a loaded mag is inserted there is heavy resistance when closing the bolt. It either doesn't close at all or closes half way. The times it did fully chamber it was very sluggish.

For the record, it's an old rifle and not one of your current builds. You guys are top notch and are excellent to deal with. I've been going to the pro-shop since it opened up and have had nothing but excellent customer service. My other DSA FAL eats everything and has been flawless, so the rifle I have there with you guys is just one that needs a little bit done to make it as reliable as my other one.
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Old December 08, 2017, 17:36   #6
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ELITE

Please range report back after their work.

Hope they make that Dragon run well!

Respectfully,

SR
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Old December 08, 2017, 20:53   #7
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Please range report back after their work.

Hope they make that Dragon run well!

Respectfully,

SR
It does spit fire that's for sure!! I'm sure it'll be fixed right. They used some well used mags they had on hand to test fire it and said they didn't have any issues. My mags (both DSA and Austrian) had issues. They all worked fine in my other DSA FAL, so I know it's an issue with the gun itself. I left my mags there with the rifle so they can better the issue. They're all good folks over there, so not worried at all
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Old December 22, 2017, 16:34   #8
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Well just picked it up from round two of warranty repair aaaaaaand.........same damn problem (although bullets are no longer being pushed into the case). Tested using 2 DSA mags, one Austrian surplus, a polymer mag they gave me for free to replace a worn mag (thank you DSA). Tested with Perfecta .308, Federal 7.62 XM80, ZQI, and Malaysian surplus. Every mag had at least 3 malfunctions. Needless to say I'm not too happy.




Not wanting to have to wait another 2-3 weeks to get the rifle back in the same condition (stuff was done, but it did t fix it), I took it to a highly regarded local smith and he noticed the cause almost immediately



The feed ramps (which is what I suspected since day one, but I'm not taking a dremel to it) are not lifting the round high enough and its hitting the base of the barrel (thus the bullets being pushed into the case and improper feeding). He said it'll be an easy fix and around $60 bucks. At least now I know it will be fixed right the first time.

For the record, everyone at DS Arms has been very friendly, especially in the Pro Shop. I also know that this is an old (but very lightly used) rifle and was not built by the people that are working there now. I don't fault them with this "lemon"

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Old December 22, 2017, 17:25   #9
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As said above, lack of proper barrel chamfer?

For a company that holds "military contracts" that's a very "well, duh!" moment. I'm not impressed.
You would think that QC check would of caught that.
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Old December 22, 2017, 17:29   #10
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You would think that QC check would of caught that.
It's a 15 year old rifle, so the QC isn't the fault of current employees
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Old December 22, 2017, 17:31   #11
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OR at the very least a test fire after a tech says it all good? Maybe not so much with DSA but in my line of work we proof all of our repairs by TESTING the unit after the repair is made.
THey said it was tested (and they tested mags too cuz they replaced on of mine). But then how do I go to the range with those same mags and have malfunction after malfunction? It ain't the ammo either. At least my local smith found the issue right away and he will make sure it runs right before I get it back
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Old December 22, 2017, 17:34   #12
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You should probably have him smooth up the feed rails on the receiver while it's there. It'll feed a lot smoother.
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Old December 22, 2017, 17:37   #13
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You should probably have him smooth up the feed rails on the receiver while it's there. It'll feed a lot smoother.
He's going to be doing that as well.
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Old December 22, 2017, 17:44   #14
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It's a 15 year old rifle, so the QC isn't the fault of current employees
True, but it is an on going issue that is getting worse, as to their "testing" to many times people here and on FB Fal pages report that their rifle was "tested" only to have the same issue as before.
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Old December 22, 2017, 17:58   #15
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True, but it is an on going issue that is getting worse, as to their "testing" to many times people here and on FB Fal pages report that their rifle was "tested" only to have the same issue as before.
I see what you're saying, my bad. I figured round 3 would be the same result (not fixed) so I'll bite the bullet and pay for it myself. If I wasn't local and was waiting months (combined for both repairs) I'd be pissed as hell. Instead I'm just slightly annoyed lol. And <$60 to get it running right is nothing

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Old December 23, 2017, 10:45   #16
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Same Thing Happened to Me!

I bought a Century FAL several years ago (ya, I know...I know) anyway it was on a Century Receiver and right off the bat...same problems you had. The only good thing I can say about Century is that they responded to warranty fairly well...but it still cost me an extra 100 bucks shipping! Anyway, I got it back after they claim it was “Barrel & Flash Hider” problem. Went to thr Gravel Pit immediately and had same problem! Stove pipes, case rips, FTF, FTE on and on! I compared the ramps to my original FN and the problem was painfully obvious! That is when I learned what the term “Unibrow” meant!

The fix? ALCOHOL! I just grabbbed a 18 Pack and went back to the pit and fired-jammed-fought it-reloaded-drank-fired-fitted-jammed-drank and so on! Eventually it went to fired-fired-fired-fired- then jam etc! Cracked open another one and repeated process! I believe the fix was that I wore the ramps down enough to start working properly. The damn thing is now deadly accurate and refuses to jam!
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Old December 23, 2017, 18:08   #17
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I bought a Century FAL several years ago (ya, I know...I know) anyway it was on a Century Receiver and right off the bat...same problems you had. The only good thing I can say about Century is that they responded to warranty fairly well...but it still cost me an extra 100 bucks shipping! Anyway, I got it back after they claim it was “Barrel & Flash Hider” problem. Went to thr Gravel Pit immediately and had same problem! Stove pipes, case rips, FTF, FTE on and on! I compared the ramps to my original FN and the problem was painfully obvious! That is when I learned what the term “Unibrow” meant!

The fix? ALCOHOL! I just grabbbed a 18 Pack and went back to the pit and fired-jammed-fought it-reloaded-drank-fired-fitted-jammed-drank and so on! Eventually it went to fired-fired-fired-fired- then jam etc! Cracked open another one and repeated process! I believe the fix was that I wore the ramps down enough to start working properly. The damn thing is now deadly accurate and refuses to jam!
Alcohol does fix everything!!!
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Old December 23, 2017, 21:11   #18
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I see what you're saying, my bad. I figured round 3 would be the same result (not fixed) so I'll bite the bullet and pay for it myself. If I wasn't local and was waiting months (combined for both repairs) I'd be pissed as hell. Instead I'm just slightly annoyed lol. And <$60 to get it running right is nothing
IMHO You should be "pissed as hell" regardless if your local or not.

Maybe you should change the title of this post to

Quote:
DSA warranty NON-repair so far


.
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Old December 24, 2017, 22:27   #19
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IMHO You should be "pissed as hell" regardless if your local or not.

Maybe you should change the title of this post to



.
Yeah you do make a good point. A private smith found the problem instantly vs nothing resolved with 2 warranty repairs.
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Old December 26, 2017, 20:13   #20
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Yeah you do make a good point. A private smith found the problem instantly vs nothing resolved with 2 warranty repairs.
I would say gunplumber would not act surprised even if he tried hard.
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Old December 26, 2017, 21:22   #21
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Another episode in the ongoing "all our stuff is within spec" vs the "it don't run worth crap".

In the past I tried hard to give DSA the benefit of the doubt, but at this point, while I have and would continue to use a certain few of their parts, I would NEVER trust my wallet or my life to a DSA rifle. Period. I just don't think they give a rat's fine ass about their commercial sales to the public. I certainly hope the anti-poacher units in Africa get better stuff from DSA
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Old December 26, 2017, 21:38   #22
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Another episode in the ongoing "all our stuff is within spec" vs the "it don't run worth crap".

In the past I tried hard to give DSA the benefit of the doubt, but at this point, while I have and would continue to use a certain few of their parts, I would NEVER trust my wallet or my life to a DSA rifle. Period. I just don't think they give a rat's fine ass about their commercial sales to the public. I certainly hope the anti-poacher units in Africa get better stuff from DSA
My other DSA FAL runs perfect, as did the AR's I've built using their uppers and lowers.

But yeah, military/gov contracts>commercial sales/service. Took a month to get back the first time (in which nothing was done, at least it seems).
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Old December 27, 2017, 09:46   #23
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I believe the fix was that I wore the ramps down enough to start working properly.
(sarcasm) Right, because brass and copper will abrade steel. (/sarcasm)
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Old December 27, 2017, 13:34   #24
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Grumpy, Mark?
Just weary of publicly displayed stupidity.
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Old December 27, 2017, 14:58   #25
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(sarcasm) Right, because brass and copper will abrade steel. (/sarcasm)
Oh it will... but it's rather labor intensive and VERY expensive!

"I'm going to need about 5k rounds of Hirt and I'll have this fixed right up for ya! There will also be an significant labor charge..."
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Old January 12, 2018, 13:22   #26
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My smith just called me and rifle is ready to go. The problem? Hammer was catching the bolt carrier too much and slowing down the momentum when it loads a round. He polished the hammer and the feedramps and said it slams home the rounds every time. He test fired it with different mags and issue is no longer present. Cost is $60 for labor. At least it's running right now and was a cheap fix (done right the first time). Going to test fire it in a few weeks (just had surgery yesterday so out of commission for a little while), but I might try and trade it towards a Zenith MP5. Going to have to see how I like it first as I haven't really had a chance yet since it's been in the shop more than in my hands lol
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Old January 12, 2018, 14:31   #27
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Hammer was catching the bolt carrier too much and slowing down the momentum when it loads a round.
I am skeptical.
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Old January 12, 2018, 15:04   #28
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Originally Posted by steveTA1983 View Post
Hammer was catching the bolt carrier too much and slowing down the momentum when it loads a round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
I am skeptical.
As am I. It is possible, saw this with FlatFours build at Brush511's. However, bolt drag would NOT cause the round to nose itself into the feed ramp, shoving the bullet back into the case. That is another problem, which DSA may've corrected.
Even so, I find it interesting that polishing the bolt and hammer fixed the problem, when a bit of proper lube between the two, should've done the same thing.
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Old January 12, 2018, 19:25   #29
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Originally Posted by steveTA1983 View Post
Hammer was catching the bolt carrier too much and slowing down the momentum when it loads a round.

As am I. It is possible, saw this with FlatFours build at Brush511's. However, bolt drag would NOT cause the round to nose itself into the feed ramp, shoving the bullet back into the case. That is another problem, which DSA may've corrected.
Even so, I find it interesting that polishing the bolt and hammer fixed the problem, when a bit of proper lube between the two, should've done the same thing.
He polished the feed ramps as they were rough, but the hammer was catching the bolt a bit adding to the problem. I'll know in a week or so and as long as the problem is solved it's all good. Luckily the smith is a block away from the range and if it isn't fixed I can just drop it off to be fixed (for the 4th time).
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Old January 12, 2018, 20:36   #30
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It may work for you just fine. I believe the underlying premise of the skepticism is that your 'smith' has manage to mask the real problem vs properly diagnosing and repairing it.
But Murphy's Law once said, "If it stupid but it works, it isn't stupid".

Let us know how it runs for you.
Will do, and I'll post actual range results instead of just failed function tests lol
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Old January 13, 2018, 10:34   #31
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Put it this way. In 27 years and thousands of FALs in for builds and repairs, the number of malfunctioning rifles that were fixed by polishing something remains ZERO.

Seriously - think about this for a moment - You have a gun that is designed to function in combat, under rain, mud, and snow conditions. And it's going to cycle or not, based on 220 vs 400 grit sandpaper? Bullshit. There is "in-spec", and there is "not-in-spec".

It is certainly possible with some hammers (old DSA mold line at fixing plate, Falcon top left warped) to have binding. That is because the parts are out-of-spec. No amount of "polishing" is going to fix that. And it does not prevent the carrier from returning forward. It prevents the hammer from returning forward smoothly - reducing the already minimal pressure the hammer would normally have on the carrier.
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Old January 13, 2018, 15:26   #32
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Put it this way. In 27 years and thousands of FALs in for builds and repairs, the number of malfunctioning rifles that were fixed by polishing something remains ZERO.

Seriously - think about this for a moment - You have a gun that is designed to function in combat, under rain, mud, and snow conditions. And it's going to cycle or not, based on 220 vs 400 grit sandpaper? Bullshit. There is "in-spec", and there is "not-in-spec".

It is certainly possible with some hammers (old DSA mold line at fixing plate, Falcon top left warped) to have binding. That is because the parts are out-of-spec. No amount of "polishing" is going to fix that. And it does not prevent the carrier from returning forward. It prevents the hammer from returning forward smoothly - reducing the already minimal pressure the hammer would normally have on the carrier.
I'm picking it up next week sometime, so I'll get more details on exactly what else he did. But your right, something on it is/was out of spec. Possibly the old DSA hammer issue you mentioned
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Old January 13, 2018, 18:15   #33
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I am skeptical.
Something like that is going on with my rifle. If I ease the bolt carrier forward the hammer catches it at a certain point and it will stay in place. I have to pull back and release for it to go home. I wonder if that has anything to do with the BOB malfunctions I've been experiencing.
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Old January 13, 2018, 18:21   #34
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Something like that is going on with my rifle. If I ease the bolt carrier forward the hammer catches it at a certain point and it will stay in place. I have to pull back and release for it to go home. I wonder if that has anything to do with the BOB malfunctions I've been experiencing.
Not likely. And you shouldn't need to ride the charging handle. Just pull it back and let it go. Unless of course you are avoiding a dry fire. In which case pull the handle back about a inch, then pull the trigger.
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Old January 14, 2018, 01:26   #35
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The weapon's not loaded when I'm doing that. It's something I noticed by chance while doing maintenance. The bolt did pause short of going home last time I shot the rifle. It paused for a moment and then went home with an audible click after the report from the shot, but it was only a half inch or so from closing when that happened. Not sure what that was all about.

I've had bolt over base malfunctions with most magazines I've tried so far. Always within the last five shots, most often the second from last shot. Only the alloy mag I tried has been trouble free. The other mags were Steyr, FN, and Israeli steel mags. Occasionally the BHO won't catch the bolt after the last shot.
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Old January 14, 2018, 09:56   #36
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Silly question - is this a para stock or standard? I note its not a sand cut B/C but none of the images could confirm stock. If a Para, it's of the time when DSA para return springs were significantly lower strength than factory. They have since improved.
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Old January 14, 2018, 15:40   #37
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Silly question - is this a para stock or standard? I note its not a sand cut B/C but none of the images could confirm stock. If a Para, it's of the time when DSA para return springs were significantly lower strength than factory. They have since improved.
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Old January 23, 2018, 12:34   #38
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Going now to pick it up from the smith. Doing a quick function test, cleaning it up, then listing it for sale in the marketplace here. I caved and popped for one of my long wanted rifles (Cugir made PSL) and need the funds to pay off the CC. Going to make sure it works before listing it obviously, but I'm sure it will as it was a pretty easy fix. From the whole experience, as other have stated, DS Arms warranty repair can be iffy. Great guys over there though, always friendly and helpful
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Old January 23, 2018, 23:06   #39
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Rifle still has issues, but I swapped bolts to test it out and the bolt from my FAL with no issues allowed for a perfect function in this rifle. Bolt may be out of spec and catching on the hammer (very noticeable). I'm going to guess this is the main problem. Easy fix if it is. Either way, I put it up for sale

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...14#post4530314
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Old January 23, 2018, 23:23   #40
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Looks to me like the ejector is too tall and is causing bolt overs.

ETA: Or more precisely the ejector slot in the bolt is not deep enough.
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Old January 23, 2018, 23:27   #41
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Looks to me like the ejector is too tall and is causing bolt overs.

ETA: Or more precisely the ejector slot in the bolt is not deep enough.
If that's the case at least a pretty easy fix for someone who wants to fix it. Rifle is nice and handy but I'm done with it lol

I swapped bolt with my working FAL and problem went away, so I think you're right. Still selling it though
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Old January 23, 2018, 23:50   #42
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Originally Posted by steveTA1983 View Post
Rifle still has issues, but I swapped bolts to test it out and the bolt from my FAL with no issues allowed for a perfect function in this rifle. Bolt may be out of spec and catching on the hammer (very noticeable). I'm going to guess this is the main problem. Easy fix if it is. Either way, I put it up for sale

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...14#post4530314
I'm just curious how you arrived at the price you did for a rifle that doesn't work? No offense meant, truly curious.

Sorry to see you get screwed by DSA and the gunsmith you took it to.
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Old January 24, 2018, 05:29   #43
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I'm just curious how you arrived at the price you did for a rifle that doesn't work? No offense meant, truly curious.

Sorry to see you get screwed by DSA and the gunsmith you took it to.
100% working LMT examples go for $1500+, but Yeah you're right. Lowered. Rifle does work w/a different bolt though, so I'm guessing the bolt is the main culprit

Last edited by steveTA1983; January 24, 2018 at 05:36.
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Old January 24, 2018, 08:31   #44
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Looks to me like the ejector is too tall and is causing bolt overs.

ETA: Or more precisely the ejector slot in the bolt is not deep enough.
Common problem with the fundamentally defective DSA bolts. Well, that and them breaking. But isn't that an austrian proof on his bolt? And is a DS 20xxx an LMT? Since DSA has lied so many times, on every topic imaginable, we don't really know when the cut-off from LMT was, but I accept sub 19,000. But that doesn't mean it isn't a little higher.
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:19   #45
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Common problem with the fundamentally defective DSA bolts. Well, that and them breaking. But isn't that an austrian proof on his bolt? And is a DS 20xxx an LMT? Since DSA has lied so many times, on every topic imaginable, we don't really know when the cut-off from LMT was, but I accept sub 19,000. But that doesn't mean it isn't a little higher.
That's why I included the bolt pics (Austrian proofs, at least looks like it). DSA did say it is a LMT receiver
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:35   #46
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I had a similar issue with a DSA assembled 18" StG kit on LMT receiver about 10 years ago. I tried everything I could think of. Finally I changed out the slim muzzlebrake for a combo device and it worked like a Swiss watch.

So even though the gas port was the proper size, it seems to be a dwell time issue. The combo device contained the pressure just enough more to allow everything to cycle properly.

Now a short gas is a whole different animal with different tolerances. But the physical properties are the same. I would test this theory with a fake combo device to see if containing that pressure just a little more will help.
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:39   #47
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I thought the FALFiles theory was that a DS prefex serial number was an LMT and a DSA prefex was not.

In 2017, this is DSA's response to a query about a DS 35xxx rifle. Previously, I had roughly estimated the LMT cut off to be in the 28,000 to 32,000 range, but have no evidence to prove such, just an observation.

From DSA;
"The rifle in question was built as a complete firearm and left on 12/08/2009.
It is an LMT receiver and would be an STG58 kit juding from the time frame."

Of course, this info does rely on the culprit in question itself.
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:43   #48
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I had a similar issue with a DSA assembled 18" StG kit on LMT receiver about 10 years ago. I tried everything I could think of. Finally I changed out the slim muzzlebrake for a combo device and it worked like a Swiss watch.

So even though the gas port was the proper size, it seems to be a dwell time issue. The combo device contained the pressure just enough more to allow everything to cycle properly.

Now a short gas is a whole different animal with different tolerances. But the physical properties are the same. I would test this theory with a fake combo device to see if containing that pressure just a little more will help.
Main problem with mine is it has nothing to do with firing, i can hand cycle the rounds (not nursing it into battery) and tell if it's fixed or not, as when releasing the charging handle it would jam on some rounds
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:44   #49
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Common problem with the fundamentally defective DSA bolts. Well, that and them breaking. But isn't that an austrian proof on his bolt? And is a DS 20xxx an LMT? Since DSA has lied so many times, on every topic imaginable, we don't really know when the cut-off from LMT was, but I accept sub 19,000. But that doesn't mean it isn't a little higher.
DS19000 is pre 2004....probably closer to 2000-2001 IIRC. Definitely LMT.
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:56   #50
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Main problem with mine is it has nothing to do with firing, i can hand cycle the rounds (not nursing it into battery) and tell if it's fixed or not, as when releasing the charging handle it would jam on some rounds
So when you stated every mag had at least 3 malfunctions, that was from hand cycling?

Two vastly different forces are at work between hand cycling and gas cycling. Which one doesn't work on your rifle?
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