The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapons Discussion > General Firearms Discussion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 13, 2017, 08:30   #51
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,654
the caseless ammo trick has been dreamed of for a long time but has never panned out. steel case ammo is proven. as is brass. caseless is still a pipe dream.
0302 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 13, 2017, 20:49   #52
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland, USA
Posts: 11,944
Well,

Tanto the Marine Corp is in on this as well. Marine Corp COL stood up at Industry day said this was going to be a joint effort. Polymer case is coming.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 13, 2017, 20:59   #53
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 15,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorack View Post
Well,

Tanto the Marine Corp is in on this as well. Marine Corp COL stood up at Industry day said this was going to be a joint effort. Polymer case is coming.

Thorack
Don't take offense, but many of us here remember that this was going to happen, several times in the past.

And it ain't yet and what sinks it this go around, will be what sunk it several times in the past, $$$$$$$$$$.

Is Tanto, Tonto's little brother or older brother, I forget???
Don't really matter, either or can still kick smarty little fellows asses when tha need arises.
Nice folks, large family, don't talk too much though.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 06:08   #54
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland, USA
Posts: 11,944
Well,

In the past decade the only programs that have survived to fruition have been joint programs. The fact that tha Marines are in on this has probably doubled its chances of survival.

0302 makes it pretty well known he is an indigenous tribal American. I poke fun at him because my ancestors chased some of his around. Scalps were taken on both sides.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 07:37   #55
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 16,188
Thorack,

Congrats on the raise Trump just signed...
__________________
The question is " which is the greater sin, ignorance or apathy?"
The answer is, I don't know and I don't care.
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 09:43   #56
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,654
"an indigenous tribal American", yanno, I am old school so I generally use "American Indian", although the phrase "wagon burner" has a certain appeal. I can only imagine the joy of raiding a cherry wagon train, tomahawking all the dudes & riding off with fresh round eye females, but lets not live in the past. The army has shown a tendency to do stupid shiite, such as the recent camo clusterfu&@k , https://breakingdefense.com/2012/06/...ding-billions/

or the sgt york air defense system, http://articles.latimes.com/1985-08-..._1_air-defense

i could go on, but ya catch the drift. so if i express some doubt about the caseless ammo its based on past goof ups. even the russkies have been using steel cased ammo for decades with plenty of graveyards testifying as to its effectiveness.
0302 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 10:20   #57
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 16,188
Historically the American natives couldn't get past rocks and sticks as their weapons systems so to criticize today's military is pretty lame. Plus from a people who wore skins to deride the uniform is really kinda funky.

Still if the military goes to plastic ammo it will be possible to stop making brass ammo...for everyone.
__________________
The question is " which is the greater sin, ignorance or apathy?"
The answer is, I don't know and I don't care.
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 14:21   #58
Atla
Registered
Contributor
 
Atla's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 79587
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 227
I have nothing to add to this thread, except that we are using a 53 year old rifle platform to fight a 71 year old weapons system.

Military change is slow, weapons design as well, the only thing increasing quickly is armor, so I won't hold my breath.

We used 'caseless' ammo once before. It was called Paper Patch Bullets.
__________________
WorkingClassReader.com - Smart, Witty, and Slightly Obnoxious.
Latest Post - 15 Minutes in the Life of a Snowflake
Atla is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 22:36   #59
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,518
HK tried it and nearly went bankrupt, the project failed. If those European genius, perfectionist minds who gave us space rockets and Aspirin can't figure it out a bunch of over paid and over weight liberal Ivy league sperm burpers ain't likely to figure it out either.
Stop wasting money on unicorn projects and start spending it figuring out how to avoid war. Meanwhile, back at the Bat Cave, we have good old brass and big sticks to fight with.
__________________
How's your dog, Paden?
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 22:39   #60
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland, USA
Posts: 11,944
HKShooter,

Quit flapping your gums and watch the Textron video in the OP. Much simpler design than Fritz's uber gun.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 22:53   #61
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorack View Post
HKShooter,

Quit flapping your gums and watch the Textron video in the OP. Much simpler design than Fritz's uber gun.

Thorack
Damn, I didn't even get the customary "well"!

I did. And I admit I cannot testify to the complexity or simplicity of the G11. I should go find something I can learn from for at the moment I cannot argue your comment. But casual observation of the animation shows a much more complex machine than seems necessary. Moving chamber? And what moves it?

I noted that the video claims the entire round is consumed in combustion/firing of the round but then the actual footage and the animation shows a casing being ejected. WTF?
__________________
How's your dog, Paden?
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 23:51   #62
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 15,730
Well, if they, the Army really wanted a working case less plastic round, simply offer a $5,000,000 prize for the round selected and then say 5% off the top for the orders made on the ammo over next 10/20 years.
Turn loose all the people that could pull it off, in record time, and far under budget.
And make it fit and function in current inventory firearms, 5.56 to 50 cal. with zero modifications to existing inventory firearms and also allow them to fire brass cased ammo when called for without any modifications.
The weapons, small arms we have now all work.
Place sights on enemy, pull trigger, they fall down, repeat until ya run out of enemy or ammo.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 00:34   #63
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,654
ok, a few facts about the lightweight ammo

"The rifle—and 20 rounds of ammunition—weighs a total of 9.7 pounds. By contrast, the standard M4A1 (pictured above) and 30 rounds of ammunition weigh 8.74 pounds."

"the 20-round magazine is at least as long as a standard M4A1 30 round magazine. While a 30-round magazine may be possible, too long a magazine blocks the user from shooting while prone. In fact, it appears polymer-encased telescoped rounds are actually wider than brass rounds. While each round is lighter, it takes up more volume than its brass-encased peers.

"If that's the case, then Textron's design choice is understandable—if you must carry fewer bullets anyway, you might as well make them hit harder. There are always compromises in small arms design, and the new rifle is no exception. Is losing a third of available ammo and adding three quarters of a pound to the rifle worth a 300 percent increase in bullet energy? Decisions, decisions.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.popul...ed-ammunition/

really, a heavier rifle & 20 rd mag?
0302 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 00:36   #64
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,654
and yeah, my great great great grand daddy probably scalped yours 😜
0302 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 08:28   #65
JonathanW
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 74318
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Tampa
Posts: 372
My prototype is currently being machined, ballistic testing begins January- February. It is designed to use Caseless ammunition. Only 3 different parts than standard rifles. Simple design that addresses the failures of previous attempts More capacity in a smaller magazine than an AR magazine. I’m hoping to have everything completed next year and hopefully the design can be submitted to compete with other designs like the polymer telescoped Ammunition
JonathanW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 13:32   #66
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,654
the telescoped ammo isn't caseless according to the vid, the plastic case is ejected after firing. what is the big improvement if the lighter ammo is much more bulky than current ammo & da grunt has less ammo & a heavier weapon? that plastic ammo looks like something a grunt could easily damage.
0302 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 13:46   #67
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 16,188
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0302 View Post
and yeah, my great great great grand daddy probably scalped yours 😜
Did your g g g grand daddy live in the south and collect the scalps of bald men?

So does this new system put the gas back into the action like the AR does ? Is it compatible with suppressors? I suppressed my AR and the blow back quickly fouls the next round up in the mag, where is the gas directed on the new gun?
__________________
The question is " which is the greater sin, ignorance or apathy?"
The answer is, I don't know and I don't care.
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 17:44   #68
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 15,730
American ingenuity is not going to be found hiding in a federal government anything.

Remember the Bradly fighting vehicle, designed by a committee, pounced upon by politicians, add in billions wasted in largess, and you get what, an M113 with a turret and ten feet taller??????

Billions on Hummveeeeeeeeeeeeeeees, to replace a standard off the shelf proven Jeep???
Just a bigger target that drinks more fuel, cost far more, and still can't do what a lowly old Jeep does.

The Army is going back to an old uniform.
They might take a long look at going back to old fashion, get close with the enemy and just kill them.

MRE's vs CRats, any arguments from anyone here???
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 16, 2017, 17:06   #69
Elwarpo
Registered
 
Elwarpo's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 38498
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SE MI
Posts: 864
From someone who has humped it in the infantry for many years, weight is everything. If I can save 2 grams a round (not a lot, just 30 grains) going from brass to plastic, my load just lightened a pound. Some will say, 1 pound, that is not a lot, it is if you are carrying it a long way with 50 to 100 of its friends.

I think the military has to really rethink weight, everything from clothing, to weapons, ammo food, supplies... Will the items cost more... yes. Is it worth it... yes.
__________________
<-- My C1A1 and I while serving.


“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” Edmund Burke
Elwarpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2017, 23:39   #70
Artful
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 10191
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: arizona
Posts: 3,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorack View Post
Mainer,

The 6.5 AP projectile being developed will be designed to penetrate level 4 boron carbide body armor plates. AP design is secret and wont be used by combat troops until we meet an enemy that regularly uses level 4 body armor.

Once the design is out it will be used on US Service members.

Thorack
Something like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PmUikWEGgw
__________________
I'm not Fat, just Tactially Padded
Artful is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2017, 23:56   #71
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland, USA
Posts: 11,944
Artful,

Supposed to be a new design and offer better performance than the M80A1. Thats what we are being told in the briefings I have sat in on.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 28, 2017, 08:34   #72
Buster H
Registered
 
Buster H's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 31644
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 132
Are the thermoset plastics UV resistant?

I have heard of folks learning the hard way about plastic and UV exposure with regards to plastic plumbing.

Not all ammo lives in a magazine. Anything beltfed is going to see extended UV exposure.

Just curious,

Buster
__________________
Ultima Ratio Regum

-The Last Argument of Kings
Buster H is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 28, 2017, 09:15   #73
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland, USA
Posts: 11,944
Well,

Its a good question that the Army I don't think has had a chance to officially test yet. That said from what I have seen the polymer is extremely thick and after immediately after firing can be picked up, but inside of the polymer rd is almost molten.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files