12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585/700HE; Big Bores

[hubel585]

I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and
other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have.
I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of
info and pictures to all gun nuts around the net, about
12ga From Hell and other big bores. We have posted some
round the net about our many ideas we have implemented for
12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE/700HE wildcats.

The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,
was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. In the first picture,
a heavy duty Borchardt falling block. He has gotten
1000 gr to 3000 fps in this, a high pressure action.

Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
of guns for the case. The case, a brass case 3.85" long,
made from BMG brass expanded out with straight sides,
to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on.
Also we get turned brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cart of that
length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases, as standard
reamers are available, and 12ga 3.5" guns are available,
so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Our 3.85" chamber
and 3.5" will shoot any of the shorter cases.
In our work we found ways to get over a third more velocity
in shorter plastic and brass cases using slower powders
than regular fast shotgun powders. We reloaded fast
rifle powder, IMR 4759, IMR 4227, in larger amounts
and got 600gr hard lead slugs over 1800 fps in 24" barrels,
and were lab tested to be at or under magnum shotgun
pressures that are used in factory 3.5" loads.


More pictures, the 2nd showing long brass 12ga FH case with
regular 12ga case. Other 12ga FH guns are next,3rd Nef Ultra
heavy barrel with length added, 4th Nef 8ga made by boring
out heavy barrel 10ga, 5th FBW falling block,my 585HE belted
case.The FBW has a 20ga 3.5" extra barrel also.
.And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga
in break actions, and my wildcat 585HE,700HE in various actions.

6th picture is our big cartridges from 2 bore on down, in
order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25- 30-06..
7th picture is 4bore falling block we built on our design.
Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.We also helped in getting the barrel
threads larger in the new large MRC PH bolt action to fit our
cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in 8th picture in MRC.

9th picture is an 8bore bolt gun a guy on another forum built
from scratch.Last is Savage 210 that Bret in MN set up with
heavy barrel and a recoil reducer put into the hollow stock.
Shown with boot off so you can see the build. He has gotten
saboted 500gr slugs over 3000 in this.We will post a bunch
more info and we welcome your ideas and help. And we'll give
all the help we can to folks ..Ed Hubel

[hubel585]

More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

The first gun of mine to have this case was
my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style
heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole stock.
I changed barrel to heavy bull barrel and
chambered it for the 12ga FH 3.85" long case.

Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put
the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.
The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put
the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the
super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged
down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the
case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.
And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 585HE was put in.
It is an Enfield and gets 750gr bullet 2700 fps.












And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling
blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed

[lew]

Fantastisch. I've followed your thread on ar15.com since the start. Damn cool project.

[hubel585]

Thanks; iy is a great hobby..

Our videos, Youtube- blowing up 6gal pail of water -"Grandpa's Cannon"
"Grandpa's First Shot" 12ga FH -- 610gr HP at 2800-3000.

We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.
And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight
sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in
longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these
firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon
shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga
cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,
and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-
Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun
cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by
applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many
others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting
from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,
game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets
but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are
varied all over the place.Ed

[hubel585]

Now some info on cases and slugs
The 50 BMG brass can be made into some real
great cartridges, our 12ga FH, shown first, showing
cases with rim turned off and threaded; and the 12ga rim
pieces to be screwed on, with finished cases shown.
And 2nd making my 700HE showing original BMG case,
case with belt only, and then expanded out to 700cal.
This makes a super strong big bore case, as I have
fired some 25 times and case is still good.And
it in my big Vulcan bolt gun gets a 1000gr to 3200.

3rd picture shows our 4bore/ga case with slugs, and
the 20mm case we make them from. They match the 4bore
turned cases that are used in the Ken Owen doubles.
4th the Rocky Mtn Cartridge, 12ga turned 3.5" cases
with variety of slugs and sabots.In picture first loaded
one is BPI sabot, then 730gr Dixie, then 600gr Dixie,
then RG Henson's solid nose and his hollowpoint.
RMC can make cases any length and any gauge.
5th shows a 12ga FH and 10ga FH we made using steel
basecups taken from 12 and 10 ga cases. We turned down
bases a few thousands of the original brass cases
and epoxied the bases. Used BMG case s for 12ga and
50cal Russian for 10ga.This research came from a
another forum poster, like over half of what we do.Ed











More pictures of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
1st The US-S sabot/slug, with the green locked on base,
along with others.The US-S slug is nearly as accurate
in smoothbores, for which it is made, as sabots are
in rifled. those pictured are heavier than most other
brands of saboted slugs.

2nd a Jacketed 730gr by RG Henson and a hard,heat treated
600gr by Dixie Slugs in FL, both full bore slugs,
3rd a BPI sabot with hardcast 440gr, .504"
diameter slug. BPIs were intended to use .500" bullets
used in 500S&W, the little larger ones we use seem
little more accurate.Makes tighter fit in rifled barrels.
4th other sabots we tested , 5th brass turned slugs
and there are many other slugs/sabots we'll show..Ed

[MAINER]

Interesting stuff!

You folks got a Dinosaur problem in your area?

[hubel585]

Not yet, but we're ready..

Quite a few have wanted doubles in our 12GA long case.
Rob is doing one on a big 10ga Zabala double,with Greener
crossbolt lock. He is replacing 10ga barrels with heavy
12ga rifled barrels, mono-blocked into the 10ga breaches
by threading them into the breach sections.
First,2nd,3rd pictures. He is now building and getting
barrel ribs done and the gun regulated.

4th picture is my 700HE in a Vulcan bolt action.
5th is the 6gal water pail from the Youtube video, atomizing.
The pail was heavy plastic, full and sealed tight.
That was 12ga 600gr hollow point slug about 3000 fps.












CASES-1st is comparison of 12ga FH brass cases, with ours on the
left we made using bmg brass, and 3 on the right that
are of a few we found already done in 12ga size, that is
as long as ours.RMC makes them long as ours and any length needed.
2nd is our long case next to short one.You can see how much
thicker and stronger our case is.

3rd is a slug made for rifled, for use in 12ga wadcup, and it
being 16ga size works in our 16ga FH case also, as shown.
4th shows 20ga RMC cases and dies we have found for them.


5th shows 1500gr 4bore slugs a guy cast for me and cases.
These are hollowbase, as our 4 and 8 gauges on the falling
blocks, are smoothbore. Top loads with these 25-2700.Ed

[hubel585]

Some more gun info about what others around the world
are doing with big bores. First is a 4bore Tula pump
gun, made in Russia. A few guys in the US have them.
They are smoothbore and .938" bore. They used a short
3" long plastic case, and we helped some of the
owners get a run of brass cases by Rocky Mtn Cartridge.
Big Al, a poster on the AR Big Bore Forums owns one.
Our 4bore case is a full 1" bore 4.05" long.
Many early 4bores for shot were set up with .935-938"
smooth bores.

Second is a bolt gun a guy in Europe did in 1" bore
using 20mm brass expanded, ending up for
headspacing, a small shoulder. It is full length like
ours, instead of shortened like other pipsqueak ones.
3rd is our big and small falling blocks, big one
the 4bore we made and other a FBW Model L in 585HE.
Both stocks need finishing in these pictures
and metal surfaces has to be finished...I'm not a
fancy, finish smith and to busy experimenting,
to get everything real fancy.

4th is a 20ga FH 3.5" chamber break action. It is a
CBC and we monoblocked in a heavy long 20ga barrel.
5th is a Mauser 12ga GEHA conversion, that had real
light barrel and cracked stock. We put the extra
Savage 12ga 24", rifled slug barrel we had in it, and
used the strong Savage plastic stock. Still has original
3" chamber and we test our slow powder 3" plastic loads.
Great load with full bore slug, is 600gr Dixie, using
90gr IMR4759, going 1800. This load was lab tested
and verified for speed and only runs plastic case, magnum
shotgun pressures.














More info on cases, first is our cases where we put in a
bushing to use shotgun primers. Also some of the guys
shorten the cases for use in 3" and shorter chambers.
Magtech makes 2.5" 12ga drawn brass cases that guys
are reloading for use in short actions, like 1887 leverguns.
2nd is 8ga plastic cases we use, the left 2 are
REM and clear is WIN. These can be gotten at BPI
and Precision Reloading. We use roll crimp on
these for slugs and sabots.
1100gr at 2000 is a good load. 9 triple ought buckshot
is a good load. Totals 630gr for the 9, goes 2500
if you want hairy load.

3rd are 8 and 10 ga hard cast slugs with hollowbases, we use.
4th is some of our wildcat cartridge stuff, my 585HE cases,
die sets, and reamers. Dies are by CH4D, reamers by Manson.
5th is our 585HE in two break actions, a CBC and NEF.
Both set up by mono-blocking in 585 heavy barrels...Ed

[hubel585]

Some more gun info. Here is picture of a nice, large diameter
action a fellow built, for big bore use.Nice beautiful machine
work, He put a 700 short case in it. He called it 700WTF.
It would do 12ga, 16ga, 20 ga, etc.

Second is the 8 bore we just made on falling block. It is
chambered for now for the 8ga 3.3" heavy duty plastic
case that we use. That we get by swaging the belt down on
the new 8ga kiln cases, that BPI and Precision Reloading sell.
The chamber fires old original 8ga cases also, but a regular
kiln load not swaged, won't chamber, a safety factor for guns not
as strong as the falling block. Guys in the UK gave me the idea
of swaging down the belt on kiln cases, as they did it
to get cases for their old 8ga doubles.

Third is the Savage 210 we put a 700 cal barrel in and made it
a 700NE. The 700 NE has same rim diameter as 12ga, but a
smaller base, ,020" smaller, Handles the loads fine, as its
factory loads are the same as our top loads in the Savage
with RMC 3.5 brass cases. Before that I had my 700H 3.25"
belted case in it. Worked great.

4th- we made a 28ga FH, a brass case 3.25" long that
RMC made for us. The chamber still fits and fires shorter
28ga plastic cases.Here is one in picture with a 505 Gibbs to show
the size and potential. I put first one in a Mossy 695 bolt gun
with a heavy rifled barrel. The 28ga rifled is same groove
diameter as the 550 magnum, so same diameter slugs work.

5th are couple of our 12ga FH cases guys shortened for
short actions, less recoil. Left are 2 inches,right 2.25"
and some have shortened them to 2.5" for use in
guns that will feed loaded 3" plastic. The 3" loaded plastic
and 2.5" brass with slug are about 2.7" overall..
If you folks have questions we'll help if we can.Ed

[hubel585]

What we are doing in getting more power from shotgun calibers
isn't super new or completely novel, most just
modernizing and improving older ideas..

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had over 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, thinner barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 4th picture.
Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the first 4 pics.











Continuing-Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to 150+ yds. Even in the old days. Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20 bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not quite as strong as 12ga FH
but as strong as some factory hotrod loads now ....We can do more
now due to better guns, powder selection, and accumulated research.
Picture #1 from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture is from the Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.

2rd is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks 4th picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for our 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

We are now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.Ed

[hubel585]

Some more stuff from the old days---
First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, that didn't have real heavy barrels.
These guns had short section of rifling at the end
of the barrel or shallow rifling. THis allowed more speed
than old foster slugs which flattened the trajectory,
and along with rifling spin, allowed for longer range shooting.


Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and
8 gauges.And you can see videos some of these great old
guns on Youtube.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.
This case matches the turned 4bore case that Ken Owen had made
for the 4bore doubles he built.










And more from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
more modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.

3rd is what a 4bore slug, if stop framed so to speak, would
look just leaving the muzzle of the 4bore falling block
we built. Some 4bores were used in the old days but they were
poorly stocked and balanced for taming recoil. Ours with thick
pads, thumbhole stock, proper balance with 1500gr
slug at 2000 all our guys here can handle just fine..Ed

[hubel585]

Some more slug experimenting and developement.
Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
we had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug.
The original Lee mold makes slugs smaller diameter,
so that they fit in a 12ga wadcup.
Slugs are hard cast alloy to take high speeds..
In picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass 12ga cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN,
where they needed short combination to feed from tube.
These slugs have real good shoulder step to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.

These first ones are 500 gr.The guys are reworking
another die to get the weight up to about 600gr,
that some of our the brass case guys want to use.
So many guys like the 600 gr size, but these with
the partly hollow base allows them to be longer,
for a little more stability,if used in smooth barrels.
Lee molds are not a real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug, in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
Brenekke has had full bore slugs with lock-on seal and
cushion, but this new appliction putting them in a sabot.
Picture #2


Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.And no steel touches
the bore only the plastic.Should have good penetration
witout breaking apart.These are front heavy will get
fair accuracy in smooth bores.











A new slug from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked
on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate
in smooth bores, Using the same idea as their all brass slugs
we showed above with locked on base, and discarding front petals.
Only these are mostly aluminum to get a lighter slug combo.In the
first picture.In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
we can get 2800. 2nd picture some results of penetration tests
in a sand bank they did. The brass centers penetrate like the
all brass ones they make.They are reporting 2" groups from regular
barreled smoothbore pumpguns at 50 yds with scope.Ed

[hubel585]

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic case got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2 cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs...



A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the
front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs from Greece are on the
plastic bases, that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders...






Here is picture of a great sizer for expanded plastic
cases, a MEC Super Sizer. It operates with collets. Sizes
cases better than factory. Has the power to shrink
expanded basecups. 2nd picture is the roll crimper tool
in drill press, it does plastic cases as good a roll crimp
as the factory does.You can see couple we crimped
behind press base in picture...Ed

[hubel585]

Here is picture of 4 long cases, top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. Bottom
a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.




Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.




Next pictures shows bullet jackets made from a copper tubing caps.
Caps are the ones they solder on to copper pipes, and they made
a die and punch to form them to a good nose shape and
size. Then they fill them from rear with lead.
Example; 1/2" cap does 700cal and 12ga with
right dies and punches.






Last the 2nd gun we put the 585HE long belted case in,
a Ruger 77 bolt action. it has a heavy 585 cal barrel,
and it is a real strong action....Ed

[Mssgn]

Its kind of fun shooting trap with an 8 gauge

[hubel585]

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed

[hubel585]

First picture is an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from a good
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
This shows the possibilities of working with smoothbores,
rather than not trying to make them work.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base slug, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed










In earlier thread I mentioned the long brass 28ga case
we setup. Well here is picture of a revolving 28ga
we will try to get later on and put in heavy barrel
and longer chamber and use brass 28ga cases.Ed

[AndyC]

I'm not exactly sure what I can say without swearing like a sailor in delight, so I'll restrict myself to "OMFG!!!"

1,500gr at 2,500fps

Damn, you guys are insanely awesome

[hubel585]

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.



Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.



Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

[hubel585]

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.



Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.



Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED

[hubel585]

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.



Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.



Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........



Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed

[hubel585]

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.





2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.





3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.





4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

[hubel585]

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.



Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.



Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.



Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US.Ed

[hubel585]

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.



Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.



Here is older picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.



Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

[hubel585]

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.



Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.



Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.



Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

[hubel585]

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.



Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.



Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.



Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

[hubel585]

The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.



From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.
Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of
different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting
friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making
the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.
Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than
modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.



Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.



Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.

[hubel585]

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.





Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.



4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

[hubel585]

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.







Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.



Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch rounds called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".




5th picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.I think it is rifled
barrels.....Nice beautiful old gun.Ed

[hubel585]

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.






Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.




Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

[hubel585]

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.





Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.



In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..



Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

[hubel585]

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.




Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.




Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.




On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

[M829A3]

WTF!! Are you guys working up to antitank loads?? Where do I sign up???

[inch man]

I have access to a fine 12 gauge double Husqvarna wth 25" barrels. Has the rabbit ears hammer and has 2.5" chambers. How hot could this gun be pushed? It has proofed steel barrels. Locks up very tight. I have a Harrington and Richardson 10 gauge over and under with 25" barrels with express sights. Pretty stout gun to play with.

[hubel585]

The Husky can shoot slugs, if chokes are open.
I would say light sabot slug loads, with those short cases.

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.



Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.



Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

[hubel585]

With other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get
100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

[hubel585]

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did a little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed





PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases. For if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countres
make arraingements with Bertram to send cases directly to you.
We can't afford export costs to send cases back out of the US
due to costly permits.and goofy gun laws.............


.

[hubel585]

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.



Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.



Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.





And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

[L Haney]

Once again, thanks for spreading this around Ed.

[hubel585]

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.



Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.



I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

[hubel585]

I found pictures of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with screw
in chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't know
how heavy barrel is yet.

Also will have pictures and test of brass 585HE sent
here. They are 585HE case samples from the first big
run of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.Ed

[Timber Wolf]

Very interesting, I have been reading the posts for some time but just got around to posting myself. I would certainly be interested in the 12 gauge sabots for .58 bullets & balls. I have a .58 rifle and molds for both balls & conicals and a fully rifled Hastings barrel for an 870 so the sabots would be a natural for me. I would enjoy loading some and comparing the performance of the 12 gauge smooth bore launched rounds to the balck powder rifle.

[hubel585]

A company is working on getting sabots mfg going. Hoping soon.

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.



Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.




I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed

[hubel585]

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.





Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220
20ga, with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets
measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed

[hubel585]

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.



Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..



Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.



Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

[hubel585]

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..





Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.



Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

[hubel585]

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.



I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving
room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length.



Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.



Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .
It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed

[hubel585]

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.



Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.





Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed




As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

[hubel585]

First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.



Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.



Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.



Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

[Illurian00]

I detached a retina at 1000grn. @ 3000fps.....