Select Fire H&K 91?

Douglas Wozny · November 16, 2015, 10:22

I have been offered what is represented as a transferable FACTORY ORIGINAL select fire H&K 91. Before everyone starts to go down the "transferable" rabbit track I HAVE VERIFIED THAT IT IS INDEED TRANSFERABLE ON A FORM 4! My concern is the "FACTORY ORIGINAL" part. I have limited knowledge of the H&K and that is mostly about the semi-automatic versions. Did some original H&K select fire get into the U. S. A.? I was under the impression that select fire H&K 91's were all after market conversions.

**SAFN49** · November 16, 2015, 10:39

It should be marked G3 from the factory if it was full auto, not HK91.

pre1989 · November 17, 2015, 23:38

Ok I got it ..There were a handfull of semi auto G3 imported in the early 1960s pre the hk41 it seems ... So yes it is marked G3 but no it is not a factory full auto

The only way a factory full auto a true one got in was pre 1968 and even as it stands the semi auto G3 and hk41 were banned in 1968 from import

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....emi-Auto-Rifle

This above is my best guess ....

Does it have the paddle mag and laucher rings on the barrel

Douglas Wozny · November 18, 2015, 16:05

Only saw pictures of the Form 4 (to prove it was truly transferable) and the overall view of right and left side on an I-Phone. I do recall seeing the paddle release but can not remember if the grenade retaining ring was present. I now suspect the current owner (who is the third owner) may have been misinformed as to the ancestry of the rifle. I do recall that on the Form 4 H&K was listed as the manufacturer. I am planning a hands on examination this weekend. Hopefully all questions will be answered then.

**VALMET** · November 18, 2015, 16:24

HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO.

Pre1989 is correct, if a true factory G3 machine gun, it would've been imported prior to 1968.

NFADLR · November 18, 2015, 16:29

Thanks, saved me time and effort.

Since I have two HK41'S, a 1966 and a 1974 it's good to know they were somehow legally imported and didn't just appear in the states via magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VALMET

HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO.

**SAFN49** · November 18, 2015, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by VALMET

HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO.

Pre1989 is correct, if a true factory G3 machine gun, it would've been imported prior to 1968.

Yes and HK changed the Model designation to HK91 for Semi Auto after that.

AFAIK HK never ever made a full auto HK91 as that was their designation for a SEMI auto. G3 has always been their model for full auto.

**SPEEDGUNNER** · November 18, 2015, 18:49

Could it be a Fleming gun? They were pretty hot into the auto sear market for a while in the 80's and 90's...it could be one of their conversions.

Conelrad · November 18, 2015, 21:05

Not a Fleming conversion. NFA guns are a whole different kettle of fish, everything imaginable was done by re-watting demilled guns on Form 1's up to the end in '86.

I digress....

As stated before, they were imported by Golden State Arms under the Santa Fe brand. All were the "MK" series and serials were in the 2XXX range. They were made in Western Germany, and importable under the ATF regulations of the day.

They were built before the '68 GCA, in which the ATF included sweeping restrictions on many guns (such as anti-tank cannons) that were importable up to the finalization of the act.

Santa Fe 41's and G-series FALs were also such guns that made it under the wire.

The G3 MK 2XXX rifles were just about the same as a select-fire G3, with very few having a true swing-down but blocked fire control. Most of that series had a relocated push-pin to prevent the use of a select-fire housing.

Most had grooved bolt carriers, but all had the safety-sear lever intact.

They were Parkerized, had serialized components, magazine release flaps, and grenade launcher retention rings on the barrel as well. The charging handles were all steel, al la the Spanish CETME.

Security Arms (SACo) 41's were almost a decade afterwards, compliant with the new laws and essentially the same as the 91's, with the big differences being the import markings and the coating color.

Just a note from a guy that has owned all the above at one time or another.

Dennis

ps...Gunbroker has been the host of listings of real G3's that were recently imported under questionable conditions, modified to emulate the confirmation of an HK-91.

Mark IV · November 19, 2015, 12:14

Vollmer maybe?

Douglas Wozny · November 23, 2015, 08:50

Over the weekend I had an opportunity for a hands on examination of the rifle. Thank you for all your input. It help me determine it is NOT a factory original select fire. Who did the conversion? Beats me. Told the owner I was not interested as H&K's were not my thing. He said that was alright as he had a buyer waiting in the wings. He still is convinced it is factory original.

ercrossfire · November 23, 2015, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Wozny

Told the owner I was not interested as H&K's were not my thing.

Don't spoil it for the rest of us...

Thanks for the follow-up.

**VALMET** · November 23, 2015, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Wozny

Over the weekend I had an opportunity for a hands on examination of the rifle. Thank you for all your input. It help me determine it is NOT a factory original select fire. Who did the conversion? Beats me. Told the owner I was not interested as H&K's were not my thing. He said that was alright as he had a buyer waiting in the wings. He still is convinced it is factory original.

Some guys can convince themselves of anything regardless of contrary information. Hopefully the "wings" buyer does a little homework on this "factory" HK 91 machine gun.

Conelrad · November 24, 2015, 01:15

That ought to be on his ATF Form 4...but the real guy was on the pre-'86 Form 1.

DDG

Douglas Wozny · November 24, 2015, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conelrad

That ought to be on his ATF Form 4...but the real guy was on the pre-'86 Form 1.
DDG

When I was first approached with this offer, the seller showed me a copy of the Form 4 to assure me that it was truly "transferable". In the description of the firearm the "Name and Address of Maker, Manufacturer and/or Importer of Firearm" was listed as Heckler & Koch, Inc., Arlington, VA and the "Model" was listed as H&K 91. So, when the seller told me that this was a "factory original" I was interested but not knowing that much about H&K stuff I thought I would do some research before "pulling the trigger". Thanks to the people of this forum I got enough info to "dodge the bullet" on this one.

Conelrad · November 24, 2015, 13:56

Regardless of his BS, a transferrable CONVERTED receiver 91 (not a sear gun) is worth upwards of $20K today...

DDG

ICOM7800 · November 24, 2015, 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by VALMET

HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO.

Pre1989 is correct, if a true factory G3 machine gun, it would've been imported prior to 1968.

Yeah, SACO Security Arms Company.Arlington, VA. I have A 91 from HK SACO import.

Elkaholic · November 25, 2015, 01:47

Maybe I missed it but I'll ask. What was the cost?

Rudolf · November 25, 2015, 02:30

Is it a form 4 or form 1?

It should show who actually did the conversion and it will show in the form 4 if this person is the 2nd or 3rd down the line.

There are tons of people that personally registered their receivers for conversion.

My guess is that it is a Registered receiver and the paperwork is wrong as it is not showing the maker of it.

pre1989 · November 25, 2015, 02:40

Really the question I would have is price ... If not that bad I would bite who cares if org or not .. Now if he is wanting 20-30k naw .. But .....

And if the sear can be moved then really big ++

Douglas Wozny · November 25, 2015, 08:39

The price was less than $10,000 BUT it came with strings. I do not want to go into the personal life of the seller but the secret protolcols associated with the deal, although maybe not illegal, did make me uncomfortable. So, let us leave it at that.

ercrossfire · November 25, 2015, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Wozny

The price was less than $10,000 BUT it came with strings. I do not want to go into the personal life of the seller but the secret protolcols associated with the deal, although maybe not illegal, did make me uncomfortable. So, let us leave it at that.

It sounded like it had scam written all over it from the very beginning.

pre1989 · November 26, 2015, 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Wozny

The price was less than $10,000 BUT it came with strings. I do not want to go into the personal life of the seller but the secret protolcols associated with the deal, although maybe not illegal, did make me uncomfortable. So, let us leave it at that.

Yeah if he is selling any full auto non say FNC or ac556 for under 10k either it is a scam not legal or best case just dont know what he had

Sounds like you may a ok call

Mark IV · November 26, 2015, 08:02

I shot a full auto HK91 conversion at Knob Creek: It walked me backward even with the owner's hand on my shoulder and put up a plume of smoke that would make any Indian smoke signalman proud.

Unless you're 6' 6" and 300 lbs, I can't think of anything more useless than a shoulder-fired 7.62x51 rifle. I'd buy a FA FAL, but just for the beauty and the collectability of the piece, not for function. At 5' 7" that caliber in FA is wasted on me ... and Mr. & Mrs. Q. didn't raise no sissy either.

November 16, 2015, 10:22	#1
Douglas Wozny Registered FALaholic #: 4255 Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 782	Select Fire H&K 91? I have been offered what is represented as a transferable FACTORY ORIGINAL select fire H&K 91. Before everyone starts to go down the "transferable" rabbit track I HAVE VERIFIED THAT IT IS INDEED TRANSFERABLE ON A FORM 4! My concern is the "FACTORY ORIGINAL" part. I have limited knowledge of the H&K and that is mostly about the semi-automatic versions. Did some original H&K select fire get into the U. S. A.? I was under the impression that select fire H&K 91's were all after market conversions. __________________ The Wizard Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable War is an act of force and to the application of that force there is no limit! So say the philosophers (Carl von Clausewitz b 1780 d 1831) of war. Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet. The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

November 17, 2015, 23:38	#3
pre1989 Registered FALaholic #: 76523 Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Red rocks AZ Posts: 529	Ok I got it ..There were a handfull of semi auto G3 imported in the early 1960s pre the hk41 it seems ... So yes it is marked G3 but no it is not a factory full auto The only way a factory full auto a true one got in was pre 1968 and even as it stands the semi auto G3 and hk41 were banned in 1968 from import http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....emi-Auto-Rifle This above is my best guess .... Does it have the paddle mag and laucher rings on the barrel Last edited by pre1989; November 17, 2015 at 23:44.

November 18, 2015, 16:05	#4
Douglas Wozny Registered FALaholic #: 4255 Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 782	Only saw pictures of the Form 4 (to prove it was truly transferable) and the overall view of right and left side on an I-Phone. I do recall seeing the paddle release but can not remember if the grenade retaining ring was present. I now suspect the current owner (who is the third owner) may have been misinformed as to the ancestry of the rifle. I do recall that on the Form 4 H&K was listed as the manufacturer. I am planning a hands on examination this weekend. Hopefully all questions will be answered then. __________________ The Wizard Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable War is an act of force and to the application of that force there is no limit! So say the philosophers (Carl von Clausewitz b 1780 d 1831) of war. Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet. The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

November 18, 2015, 16:24	#5
VALMET Curio & Relic Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 1826 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 2,423	HK 41s weren't banned in 1968 they were slightly reconfigured and imported in 1974 by SACO. Pre1989 is correct, if a true factory G3 machine gun, it would've been imported prior to 1968. __________________ "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is a symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell, 1940. "Dammit Smithers this is brain surgery, not rocket science!" -C. Montgomery Burns

November 18, 2015, 18:49	#8
SPEEDGUNNER Firearms Connoisseur Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 43933 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Between the Brandywines Posts: 3,783	Could it be a Fleming gun? They were pretty hot into the auto sear market for a while in the 80's and 90's...it could be one of their conversions. __________________ "There's a race of men that don't fit in, A race that can't stay still; So they break the hearts of kith and kin, And they roam the world at will." - Robert Service

November 16, 2015, 10:39	#2
SAFN49 None Platinum Contributor FALaholic #: 73015 Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: No Where Posts: 8,758	It should be marked G3 from the factory if it was full auto, not HK91.

November 18, 2015, 21:05	#9
Conelrad Registered FALaholic #: 76462 Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Hidden Valley, AZ Posts: 140	The '62 HK G3 semiauto rifles Not a Fleming conversion. NFA guns are a whole different kettle of fish, everything imaginable was done by re-watting demilled guns on Form 1's up to the end in '86. I digress.... As stated before, they were imported by Golden State Arms under the Santa Fe brand. All were the "MK" series and serials were in the 2XXX range. They were made in Western Germany, and importable under the ATF regulations of the day. They were built before the '68 GCA, in which the ATF included sweeping restrictions on many guns (such as anti-tank cannons) that were importable up to the finalization of the act. Santa Fe 41's and G-series FALs were also such guns that made it under the wire. The G3 MK 2XXX rifles were just about the same as a select-fire G3, with very few having a true swing-down but blocked fire control. Most of that series had a relocated push-pin to prevent the use of a select-fire housing. Most had grooved bolt carriers, but all had the safety-sear lever intact. They were Parkerized, had serialized components, magazine release flaps, and grenade launcher retention rings on the barrel as well. The charging handles were all steel, al la the Spanish CETME. Security Arms (SACo) 41's were almost a decade afterwards, compliant with the new laws and essentially the same as the 91's, with the big differences being the import markings and the coating color. Just a note from a guy that has owned all the above at one time or another. Dennis ps...Gunbroker has been the host of listings of real G3's that were recently imported under questionable conditions, modified to emulate the confirmation of an HK-91.

November 19, 2015, 12:14	#10
Mark IV Registered FALaholic #: 50937 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mich. north of the "D" Posts: 8,397	Vollmer maybe? __________________ *If guns are outlawed, I'll still have my guns.* *Allah is a lie, Mohammad is a liar, and the Koran is a book of lies*

November 23, 2015, 08:50	#11
Douglas Wozny Registered FALaholic #: 4255 Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 782	Over the weekend I had an opportunity for a hands on examination of the rifle. Thank you for all your input. It help me determine it is NOT a factory original select fire. Who did the conversion? Beats me. Told the owner I was not interested as H&K's were not my thing. He said that was alright as he had a buyer waiting in the wings. He still is convinced it is factory original. __________________ The Wizard Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable War is an act of force and to the application of that force there is no limit! So say the philosophers (Carl von Clausewitz b 1780 d 1831) of war. Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet. The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

November 24, 2015, 01:15	#14
Conelrad Registered FALaholic #: 76462 Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Hidden Valley, AZ Posts: 140	Whodunit? That ought to be on his ATF Form 4...but the real guy was on the pre-'86 Form 1. DDG

November 24, 2015, 13:56	#16
Conelrad Registered FALaholic #: 76462 Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Hidden Valley, AZ Posts: 140	Regardless of his BS, a transferrable CONVERTED receiver 91 (not a sear gun) is worth upwards of $20K today... DDG

November 25, 2015, 01:47	#18
Elkaholic Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 34966 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Portland OR. Posts: 628	Maybe I missed it but I'll ask. What was the cost?

November 25, 2015, 02:30	#19
Rudolf Registered FALaholic #: 7 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Salem, ORegon, USA Posts: 927	Is it a form 4 or form 1? It should show who actually did the conversion and it will show in the form 4 if this person is the 2nd or 3rd down the line. There are tons of people that personally registered their receivers for conversion. My guess is that it is a Registered receiver and the paperwork is wrong as it is not showing the maker of it.

November 25, 2015, 02:40	#20
pre1989 Registered FALaholic #: 76523 Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Red rocks AZ Posts: 529	Really the question I would have is price ... If not that bad I would bite who cares if org or not .. Now if he is wanting 20-30k naw .. But ..... And if the sear can be moved then really big ++

November 25, 2015, 08:39	#21
Douglas Wozny Registered FALaholic #: 4255 Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 782	The price was less than $10,000 BUT it came with strings. I do not want to go into the personal life of the seller but the secret protolcols associated with the deal, although maybe not illegal, did make me uncomfortable. So, let us leave it at that. __________________ The Wizard Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable War is an act of force and to the application of that force there is no limit! So say the philosophers (Carl von Clausewitz b 1780 d 1831) of war. Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet. The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

November 26, 2015, 08:02	#24
Mark IV Registered FALaholic #: 50937 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mich. north of the "D" Posts: 8,397	I shot a full auto HK91 conversion at Knob Creek: It walked me backward even with the owner's hand on my shoulder and put up a plume of smoke that would make any Indian smoke signalman proud. Unless you're 6' 6" and 300 lbs, I can't think of anything more useless than a shoulder-fired 7.62x51 rifle. I'd buy a FA FAL, but just for the beauty and the collectability of the piece, not for function. At 5' 7" that caliber in FA is wasted on me ... and Mr. & Mrs. Q. didn't raise no sissy either. __________________ *If guns are outlawed, I'll still have my guns.* *Allah is a lie, Mohammad is a liar, and the Koran is a book of lies*

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