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Old July 27, 2013, 22:48   #1
RG Coburn
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95 year old tasered;dead

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...e-2722492.html
A 95-year-old resident of an Illinois nursing home died early Saturday, hours after being shocked with a Taser and bean bag rounds in a confrontation with police.

Authorities said John Warna was a resident at Victory Centre of Park Forest, on the 100 block of South Main Street in the south suburb. He was threatening paramedics and staff with a cane and a metal shoehorn when police arrived at the complex, they said.

....a 95 year old? They can't PEACEFULLY subdue a 95 year old? Without resorting to lethal methods?
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Old July 27, 2013, 23:12   #2
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In the article is says the police stated he had a 12" knife?

If so, well.............


If all he really had was a cane and a shoehorn, then it was too much force.
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Old July 28, 2013, 02:54   #3
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He shoulda been grateful they didn't use flashbangs and the SWAT sniper on him.
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Old July 28, 2013, 07:13   #4
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In the article is says the police stated he had a 12" knife?

If so, well.............


If all he really had was a cane and a shoehorn, then it was too much force.
Even if it was a knife, it was too much force. All ya gotta do with a guy that old is wait fifteen or twenty minutes until he falls asleep, and then take him.
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Old July 28, 2013, 09:21   #5
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Even if it was a knife, it was too much force. All ya gotta do with a guy that old is wait fifteen or twenty minutes until he falls asleep, and then take him.
Yep, pretty much sums it up. In fifteen minutes he'd probably forget why he was pissed too.
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Old July 28, 2013, 10:34   #6
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My dad passed last year at 95. It took forever to get him out of the car, and he walked quite slowly. If he had a cane and was a threat, that would be one big laugh. Even with a knife, he woulda' been to slow to do any damage. These actions are BS, IMHO.
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Old July 28, 2013, 11:40   #7
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I am sure a 95 year old could be murderously dangerous with a knife....if the intended victim was already sound asleep.
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Old July 28, 2013, 11:43   #8
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I am sure a 95 year old could be murderously dangerous with a knife....if the intended victim was already sound asleep.
Not if the intended victim was sleepwalking. Well...maybe if the nonagenarian had a Lark electric scooter.
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Old July 28, 2013, 11:47   #9
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Even at my age and in my current condition, I'm right certain I could dis-arm a 95 year old with a knife. Now if he was a 95 year old Jedi witha light sabre, I could see why the cops were so frightened of him.
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Old July 28, 2013, 12:47   #10
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For christ sakes! They could have just mattressed him. Or brought in three officers with those full length riot shields to pin him in a corner.
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Old July 28, 2013, 13:24   #11
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Let's face it - they wanted to shoot him. They wanted to watch him wiggle on the end of the wire.
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Old July 28, 2013, 15:23   #12
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Just another example of our jack booted police serving and protecting the shit out of us.
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Old July 28, 2013, 16:08   #13
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For christ sakes! They could have just mattressed him. Or brought in three officers with those full length riot shields to pin him in a corner.
It would probably take three of those dickless fairies to do it, too.
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Old July 28, 2013, 16:34   #14
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Just another example of our jack booted police serving and killing the shit out of us.
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Old July 28, 2013, 18:30   #15
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I feel so much safer now.
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Old July 28, 2013, 19:22   #16
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What's the problem here? This is perfectly normal SOP these days.
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Old July 28, 2013, 21:19   #17
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What's the problem here? This is perfectly normal SOP these days.
The fact that it is "perfectly normal SOP these days" IS the problem...

...but don't play coy with us, you knew that.
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Old July 28, 2013, 21:29   #18
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For christ sakes! They could have just mattressed him. Or brought in three officers with those full length riot shields to pin him in a corner.
Back when I used to trap,I'd catch an occasional dog or cat,and some were downright hostile. The SOP was to take off your Carhart,and simply toss it over the animals head. Hold it down,and it would calm down enough to free it. No biggie. They could have just tossed a blanket over the guy's head,and cinched it down.He'd calm down enough to take away the "dangerous" shoehorn or cane,and they'd put him to bed or whatever.
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Old July 29, 2013, 12:26   #19
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Heck, they could bring in animal control and dart him. They treat feral animals more humanely than they do humans.
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Old July 29, 2013, 12:42   #20
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Just another example of our jack booted police serving and protecting the shit out of us.
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It would probably take three of those dickless fairies to do it, too.
Yeah, but at least they went home at the end of the shift and thats what counts. They probably did wet their pants though, the little darlings ... wonder when they're going to make depends part of the regular duty uniform. I know I'm for it ...
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Old July 29, 2013, 15:01   #21
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As a former LEO myself, any cop who can't take a knife from a 95 yo man is gutless pussy.
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Old July 29, 2013, 16:49   #22
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As a former LEO myself, any cop who can't take a knife from a 95 yo man is gutless pussy.
I have to agree with this.

Beanbag rounds are very harsh and there are specific distances they are supposed to be used so major injury does not occur.

I simply cannot believe a 95 year old could move fast enough to be a threat that required this.

It's just wrong.
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Old July 29, 2013, 18:53   #23
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I cannot believe we're even talking about this. You LEOs out there have some explaining to do, and right now I haven't seen anything to convince me that you think that this is anything other than bad judgement.
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Old July 29, 2013, 20:39   #24
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The police say the man at the assisted living community, threatened them with a butcher knife.

It also says it was a cane and a shoe horn.

Assuming he has only 2 hands, I think we need more information.

Tasing a guy threatening with a knife is not out of line. Perhaps there were other ways, but no cop has a duty to get cut just to homor some old guy's neurosis. The police came after the ambulance. I am assuming the ambulance was there for the 95 year old. I am assuming they called the police when they decided they couldn't handle the situation.

I think there is a distinct lack of information here. The emotional response is "he was 95 and harmless". I question the need for both a beanbag and a taser. Did the beanbag or taser not work?.

When did the shoe horn become a butcher knife?

Cops are called when people want FORCE. Like it or not, that's what cops do. I suspect their procedure says "suspect refuses to drop knife, tase him". I'll bet it doesn't say "except if he's 95 and possibly suffering from dementia." This is where judgement comes in. But if a cop attempted to take the knife from him and was injured, he'd be reprimanded for violating procedure.

It doesn't look good, but don't think this is as cut and dried as some suggest.

Heck, we had cops shoot to death some teenager threatening to cut himself with a butter knife. At least they attempted less lethal methods.
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Old July 29, 2013, 21:21   #25
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When did the shoe horn become a butcher knife?
...about two seconds after the ECG flatlined....
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Old July 29, 2013, 22:24   #26
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I'd take a good cane over a big knife for a fight almost anytime. Not sure how turning it into butcher knife makes it better. The cane is probably the more useful weapon overall.
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Old July 30, 2013, 07:07   #27
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Most likely it was a shoehorn,as in the case with most long-term care homes I have been in,most,if not all,of what they feed them does not need to be "butchered",hence no need on site of a "butcher knife". Perhaps a paring knife? I doubt even that. They feed them a lot of canned and processed foods. Not like they are getting T-bone steaks or 20 lb roasted turkey dinners. Most of these folks don't have teeth,or have dentures or partials,and chewing,let alone digesting,is very hard for them.
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Old July 30, 2013, 08:35   #28
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Most likely it was a shoehorn,as in the case with most long-term care homes I have been in,most,if not all,of what they feed them does not need to be "butchered",hence no need on site of a "butcher knife". Perhaps a paring knife? I doubt even that. They feed them a lot of canned and processed foods. Not like they are getting T-bone steaks or 20 lb roasted turkey dinners. Most of these folks don't have teeth,or have dentures or partials,and chewing,let alone digesting,is very hard for them.
Police disinformation, most likely.
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Old July 30, 2013, 18:35   #29
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Read the article.

It states the man put down the shoehorn and picked up a "butcher style 12" knife".

The did also say the taser had no effect, which is a very big red flag as to his mental/emotional state, but hell, even if he was stark raving mad I cannot imagine his physical condition would enable him to be a serious threat. Personally I would use a baton, or broom stick, to knock the knife out of his hand then jump him.

Remember it takes 5 years to produce a generally competent police officer, and longer for a supervisor. I am betting this is a factor in the whole incident.
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Old July 30, 2013, 20:47   #30
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Yeah...there's always 12 inch butcher knives just laying around old folks homes...
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Old July 31, 2013, 18:36   #31
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If the taser had no effect then the either didn't hit him or the batteries were dead. Either way, epic fail to the shitbag cops.

Sorry, no 95 year old man stands up to a taser. Most of 'em can't stand up under their own power. Them that do are real shakey.

Cops. Liars. Scumbags. To a man, if you can call 'em that.

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Old July 31, 2013, 19:15   #32
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How would he get his hands on a butcher knife and if he did, I see a big lawsuit against the nursing home! Think about it, you're 95 years old, in a nursing home and have a butcher knife. Am I the only one who thinks this is odd?
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Old July 31, 2013, 21:44   #33
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Think about it, you're 95 years old, in a nursing home and have a butcher knife. Am I the only one who thinks this is odd?
No.
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Old July 31, 2013, 22:51   #34
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I bet the old man had Rabies.
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Old July 31, 2013, 22:52   #35
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Throw down?
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Old August 01, 2013, 21:19   #36
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Bubbagump: Tasers are not 100% effective on people that are well intoxicated/high or stark raving mad lunatics, which is why I stated the failure of the taser to effect him was a red flag.

Throwdown?
Really?
Where do you hide 12" 308/223?
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Old August 01, 2013, 22:24   #37
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Where do you hide 12" 308/223?
In a squad car?

Just saying........
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Old August 01, 2013, 23:30   #38
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In me trousers.
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Old August 02, 2013, 08:40   #39
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Bubbagump: Tasers are not 100% effective on people that are well intoxicated/high or stark raving mad lunatics, which is why I stated the failure of the taser to effect him was a red flag.

Throwdown?
Really?
Where do you hide 12" 308/223?
So he was intoxicated or high? Stark raving mad lunatic?

My wife's stepdad is 97, he can't even get out of bed on his own. This guy was in a nursing home almost certainly because he was in a similar condition.

Sorry, ain't buying the 'we had to taser him' argument. They could have waited until he fell asleep or just let his oxygen run out. Wouldn't have taken long.
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Old August 02, 2013, 18:59   #40
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Uhhh... if you could read you would see I don't buy it either.

I was just clarifying about the effectiveness of the taser. I have witnessed some strange things with mental cases, and been scared once or twice dealing with them.

Now - as to the circumstances you guess is as good as mine if the story we are given is accurate or a complete lie.
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Old August 02, 2013, 19:01   #41
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In me trousers.
RRRight!!!
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Old August 04, 2013, 19:35   #42
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Follow this link for some more info on this:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...t-police-taser

But according to Maria Oliva, an executive with Pathway Senior Living, the staff was kept out of the room after police arrived. So there was no imminent threat to staff.

"The staff was not inside once the police were on the scene," Oliva told us. "At different times the staff were in there, but not when they were called. They (the police) were in charge at that point."

Police said there had been threats made against the staff. But Grapsas (family lawyer) said he was told that staff begged to be allowed to try to calm down the old man.

"If there were threats to the staff, why did the staff want to intervene and say, 'Let us handle this; we'll get him calmed down'?" he asked.


At some point, I'm told there were between five and seven police officers, they went back to the room with a riot shield in hand, entered the door and shot him with a shotgun that contained bean-bag rounds," Grapsas said.

If this is true and police had a riot shield, why on earth would they need a shotgun?

At some point, I'm told there were between five and seven police officers, they went back to the room with a riot shield in hand, entered the door and shot him with a shotgun that contained bean-bag rounds," Grapsas said.

If this is true and police had a riot shield, why on earth would they need a shotgun?


John Wrana was a WWII vet and used a walker to get about.
The article also questions the knife the police claim was used.
The Illinois State Police are investigating this.
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Old August 06, 2013, 14:54   #43
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http://www.fromthetrenchesworldrepor...121#more-53121

A 95-year-old man who served his country during World War II is now dead after police stormed his retirement home with riot shields, Tasered him and shot him with bean bag rounds – all because he adamantly refused to undergo high-risk surgery.

U.S. Army Air Corps veteran John Wrana, who was honorably discharged as a sergeant after he served in the India-Burma campaign, used a walker because family members said he was “wobbly” on his feet, according to the Chicago Tribune. The elderly veteran was shot down by enemy fire during the war.

On July 26, a doctor reportedly told Wrana if he survived surgery, he would likely be put on life support. The elderly man refused the operation, and paramedics attempted to involuntarily transport him for medical treatment. He was sitting in a chair, holding a cane and a shoe horn when police arrived at the Victory Centre senior living facility located just south of Chicago.

The Cook County medical examiner reported that Wrana bled to death internally from injuries caused when the elderly man was shot in the stomach with a 12-gauge shotgun that fired a bag filled with lead shot. The death has been ruled a homicide, according to reports.

“The Japanese military couldn’t get him at the age he was touchable, in a uniform in the war,” Wrana family attorney Nicholas Grapsas told the Tribune. “It took 70 years later for the Park Forest police to do the job.”

Grapsas said he was told “there were between five and seven police officers” at the scene.

The Chicago Sun-Times reported that the Illinois State Police Public Integrity Unit is investigating the incident. According to the Park Forest police account, Grapsas had threatened officers with a two-foot-long metal shoe horn and cane.

“Attempts were made verbally to have the resident comply with demands to drop the articles, to no avail,” the police statement said. “The resident then armed himself with a 12-inch butcher type kitchen knife.”

But Grapsas told the Tribune the staff and Wrana’s family said they never saw a butcher knife in his room.

“So where did the knife come from?” the attorney asked.

Maria Oliva, an executive with Pathway Senior Living, said staff members were kept outside of the room when police were present.

“The staff was not inside once the police were on the scene,” she said. “At different times the staff were in there, but not when they were called. They (the police) were in charge at that point.”

While police said Wrana had made threats against the staff, Grapsas said staff members urged police to let them calm the elderly man.

“If there were threats to the staff, why did the staff want to intervene and say, ‘Let us handle this; we’ll get him calmed down’?” he asked.

Now Wrana’s family is desperate for an explanation.

“I want answers,” his 74-year-old step-daughter said. “I want someone held accountable.”
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/why-did-c...VF0ILfazBty.99
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Old August 06, 2013, 15:34   #44
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Police control the scene after they murder the old man and miraculously "find" a 12" butcher knife that no one ever saw before? Will wonders never cease?
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Old August 06, 2013, 16:01   #45
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Police control the scene after they murder the old man and miraculously "find" a 12" butcher knife that no one ever saw before? Will wonders never cease?
Not even Dumbass Bill is credulous enough to buy that bullshit story.

Unless the old coot was a Republican.
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Old August 06, 2013, 18:30   #46
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Uhhh... if you could read you would see I don't buy it either.

I was just clarifying about the effectiveness of the taser. I have witnessed some strange things with mental cases, and been scared once or twice dealing with them.

Now - as to the circumstances you guess is as good as mine if the story we are given is accurate or a complete lie.
Well, for what it's worth I'll go with Door #2 Alex, a complete lie for the win. Fabricated from beginning to ened by tax-slurping cops, loser pieces of shit who aren't above killing a guy in a nursing home if they can spin it.

Prove me wrong. Believe it or not, I'd like to have that happen.

b.
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Old August 06, 2013, 20:12   #47
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Obviously I have no way to prove any part of that story right or wrong.

I would like to be able to prove you wrong and convince myself the officers did not kill that man for no good reason.

When I was allowed to work on IA (internal Affairs) cases for a very short while my philosophy was to work to prove an officer innocent of allegations until I could not longer do so, at that point then it would become simply to prove their guilt.

You have read my posts about this and as more info has come out I was the first to post about it.
Clearly it looks worse and worse and as these things go there will be more info come out in time.

The thing that gets me is when a new story first comes out with virtually no info some here get hysterical and there is a flurry of condeming posts with some general inference that all cops are bad and I know for a fact that is not true.
One even posts "police are authorized to lie"... right, kinda like the poster writes lies as he sees fit.

Is it getting worse - police excessive use of force and the militarization?
Yes, and I have posted for years of my fear of the militarization that is occurring. I think the two are inter related.
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