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Old February 13, 2013, 10:29   #1
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EMP update

I work with the guys on the congressional EMP group. Report was submitted to the WH and what was made public was watered down. To get the word out Dr Peter Pry has taken the committee's work and has had it publisihed. For the latest go to amazon and get "Apocalypse Unknown" by Peter Pry. It is non fiction what is going on book.
Some folks are taking this seriously. One group is the Texas Utility Board. They are working with the Texas electrical utilities to begin to harden the grid and to be able to "disconnect" from the non protected grids. North Carolina is looking at it, as is Maine. Texas being Texas however has the political will and independent thought and is proceeding, not just talking.
The other group which has a plan in place is CSX railroad. I can't get into the details but they have a SHTF plan in place. Given the telecom system will be down they will still have a 30% capacity and have worked a plan with certain refineries to provide power from the locomotives to keep the refinies up and move crude in exchange for fuel.
Just FYI.
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Old February 13, 2013, 12:39   #2
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Sounds like something I'd like to read. But if he really wanted to get the word out, he would put it out on Kindle at $10 instead a $50 paperback.
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Old February 13, 2013, 17:53   #3
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Good question, I'll ask when I see him.
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:23   #4
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I talked with Dr. Pry last night and he said that it would be out in Kindle format shortly. He didn't have an exact date but he said that he hoped that it won't be long.
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:39   #5
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... have worked a plan with certain refineries to provide power from the locomotives to keep the refinies up and move crude in exchange for fuel.
Not many people are aware of the electrical generation capacity of a locomotive engine. Much less twenty of them.
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Old February 14, 2013, 11:08   #6
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That makes sense. I knew a modern Diesel loco engine was basically just a generator with motorized wheels.
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Old February 14, 2013, 11:58   #7
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What's going to still need crude/ refined in a real EMP crisis? .gov?
Could see real utility in the locomotives in a solar flare crisis to keep things moving.
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Old February 14, 2013, 12:49   #8
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I talked with Dr. Pry last night and he said that it would be out in Kindle format shortly. He didn't have an exact date but he said that he hoped that it won't be long.
Excellent, thank you!
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Old February 14, 2013, 15:34   #9
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Locomotives produce DC power,no? Just like submarines?
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Old February 14, 2013, 16:40   #10
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Locomotives produce DC power,no? Just like submarines?
Yes, the traction motors run on DC. Very easy to convert to 60hz AC these days. In a pinch the motors can be dismounted and used to drive alternators directly.
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Old February 14, 2013, 20:38   #11
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The crude is for fuel for the railroad. Also they do not want the refinery cracking towers to go down ( takes months to bring them on line if the cat isn't damaged). At 30% capacity they will move food, fuel (agricultural) and critical items. Part of the plan is to not miss the next planting season.
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Old February 15, 2013, 04:59   #12
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Locomotives produce DC power,no? Just like submarines?
Some AC, some DC. Most in the 4500-6000 hp range.
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Old February 15, 2013, 06:40   #13
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They hold a bunch of Diesel also.
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Old February 15, 2013, 13:23   #14
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Not many people are aware of the electrical generation capacity of a locomotive engine. Much less twenty of them.
That's real interesting - thanks.

Footnote readings for this thread :
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277940

Particularly this
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=58
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Old February 20, 2013, 12:55   #15
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I reviewed chapters but got my copies today. 385 pages, covers various potential diasters. Includes Dark winter bio attack and he does include Iranian current nuclear capablity ( russian devices). Has effects for different attacks ( ground, ballon, scud). Solar effects. Not for light bathroom reading but if you want to be up to speed in this area, good reference.
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Old February 20, 2013, 13:17   #16
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This great to hear. Someone that has answers to EMP questions that knows. Would you be willing to answer some questions?

I'm particularly interested in how to get a car going again in the event of an EMP. I've put some things away in a sealed steel safe like alternator, coil, etc but I'm not sure if it's everything I need.

I'm also curious about solar panals to recharge batteries. How do you harden or store solar panals for use post EMP event.
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Old February 20, 2013, 13:23   #17
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Not many people are aware of the electrical generation capacity of a locomotive engine. Much less twenty of them.
My Dad has told me of using power from a Diesel locomotive when he was training in the Corps of Engineers at Ft. Belvoir in '43.
He did not say for what exact purpose.



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Old February 20, 2013, 20:16   #18
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we need to chip in and buy an atlas 4 silo. to keep us all safe. with all the eng's we have and wesogs here we can make rocket stoves and heaters. that burn wood. gas a fires for fuel. etc. with this old bunch we will make it for a long time, or until we run out of metlimusle.(sp) the drink that makes you go. reg. every day
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Old February 21, 2013, 11:42   #19
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On autos, it is not a simple answer. It will depend on where the car is and it's orientation to the pulse source ( assuming EMP and not geomagnetic, different pulse shapes). New cars have redundent electronics built in, however they are interfaced so you may have your timing circuit make it but one brake system is fried. Or the whole system is fried, or the trannie is fried etc.
On older vehicles, pre 90s the real vulnerable peice is the ignition control box. Have a couple of spares in an ammo can. Point vehicles with a mechanical voltage regulator will fair well ( 1969 and earlierfor Chrysler). The alternator I have spare brushs and diodes in the box. Cars with generators will fair even better. Coils will be OK.
However the real nightmare is the actual wiring harness. This long piece of wire will soak up a lot of energy. That energy will go to the control box, instruments etc ( remember the gauges in the truck in close encounters ). Anyway, the harness may burn up. Again this will depend on te vehicle and orientation. Older vehicles with more metal to shield the guts will fair better. That is also an issue with house wiring. There will be a LOT of buildings burning.
Working with these guys has been interesting. One fellow ran the last EMP test to be conducted on a full system, in this case a command and control room. Test was run with folks at their posts. He said when the pulse was fired, the room became like you'd see in a sci-fi movie. The metal racks of radio end electronic gear had archs jumping around them, computer keyboards had fingers of electricity dancing across them. He said things protected by faraday cages didn't make it. Some people were shocked. I asked what made it. He laughed and said the old black govt rotary telephones.
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Old February 28, 2013, 00:20   #20
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On autos, it is not a simple answer. It will depend on where the car is and it's orientation to the pulse source ( assuming EMP and not geomagnetic, different pulse shapes). New cars have redundent electronics built in, however they are interfaced so you may have your timing circuit make it but one brake system is fried. Or the whole system is fried, or the trannie is fried etc.
On older vehicles, pre 90s the real vulnerable peice is the ignition control box. Have a couple of spares in an ammo can. Point vehicles with a mechanical voltage regulator will fair well ( 1969 and earlierfor Chrysler). The alternator I have spare brushs and diodes in the box. Cars with generators will fair even better. Coils will be OK.
However the real nightmare is the actual wiring harness. This long piece of wire will soak up a lot of energy. That energy will go to the control box, instruments etc ( remember the gauges in the truck in close encounters ). Anyway, the harness may burn up. Again this will depend on te vehicle and orientation. Older vehicles with more metal to shield the guts will fair better. That is also an issue with house wiring. There will be a LOT of buildings burning.
Working with these guys has been interesting. One fellow ran the last EMP test to be conducted on a full system, in this case a command and control room. Test was run with folks at their posts. He said when the pulse was fired, the room became like you'd see in a sci-fi movie. The metal racks of radio end electronic gear had archs jumping around them, computer keyboards had fingers of electricity dancing across them. He said things protected by faraday cages didn't make it. Some people were shocked. I asked what made it. He laughed and said the old black govt rotary telephones.
Thank you very much for the info. I'm surprised that coils made it. What I've got that I think could be put back into service the easiest is a 1977 Corvette. (I wish it was a 77 pickup but it belonged to my late father and I'm not getting rid of it) I've got a steel, inground safe that is just sitting on the floor. In that I've placed, in their cardboard boxes, a coil, ignition module, starter seleniod, and alternator. I then put the steal cover plate on it and taped it up with metal foil tape. I was considering putting in a windshield wiper motor also but haven't gotten around to it. From what you say I may still have a problem as the fiberglass will not shield the wiring harness.

I've also got a 1994 Suburban but discounted it because it does have a computer on it and an in tank electric fuel pump. My 2003 Excursion was also discounted do to massive electronics in it.

Do you have any suggestions for additional safeguards I could take? Regarding the solar panels. If they were left in their original packaging and wrapped up in aluminum foil like a present would they be ok? Oh, and one more question. Military steel ammo cans have a rubber gasket. If I'm putting anything in one of those should it be sealed up with metal foil tape?

Thank you very much for taking the time to post this information.
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Old February 28, 2013, 01:55   #21
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As long as the metal overlaps it should be no problem. A chicken wire cage will work also, it doesn't have to be a continueous sheild. We're talking about a Faraday cage.
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Old February 28, 2013, 06:17   #22
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A chicken wire cage will work also, it doesn't have to be a continueous sheild. We're talking about a Faraday cage.
Might want to rethink that one. The 'pulse' part of EMP is the kicker. The rise time of the pulse is the reciprocal of the frequency. Get that fast enough and chicken wire might as well be tissue paper.

A nuke derived EMP pulse is quite good on achieving a spectacularly short rise time.

Distance is your friend in addition to shielding. Penetration through soil with a normal moisture content is also limited.
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Old February 28, 2013, 11:46   #23
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You bring up some interesting questions concerning EMP.
A faraday cage shields the interior from external electromagnetic radiation if the conductor is thick enough and any holes are significantly smaller than the wavelength of the radiation. Grounding is also a must.
So it's a matter of the conductivity of the cage, thickness of wire, or the distance between conductors? What good would mylar do if it is about the conductivity or capacity to bleed away all those "extra' electrons?
Would a layered approach afford more protection?
I guess the amount of energy released by the event would be the key. Distance as mentioned would be another. We can't control those variables, so what is the standard to which we should prepare against? Some guidelines would be a very good start.
Interesting topic to say the least.
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Old March 14, 2013, 17:18   #24
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:09   #25
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I have a shop/garage building that has a steel roof and walls. It is grounded too. Except for it's floor (earth and part reinforced concrete), two smallish windows and garage doors, it is steel covered. Can I expect some shielding from this?
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:25   #26
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Grounding is also a must.
I'ma gonna' make it tougher. You mentioned frequency of the pulse, which is also the reciprocal of the rise time. Now that grounding thing.

IF your grounding system has sufficient inductance at the frequency it is subjected to, it may not have a positive effect at all. It becomes a "choke" in electrical terms and isolates that fast rise time pulse from being able to deliver current to ground.

You want LESS inductance. Fatter conductors (woven metallic strap is far better than wire), multiple ground rods, distributed connections from the structure to those rods. You want the shortest distance to the discharge points (rods) with the least amount of bends in the strapping possible.

Right angles look very neat and professional in your ground wiring. Avoid that like the plague. Curves, not angles.

You're trying to tackle a difficult technical challenge.

Limited protection from an EMP event is fairly easy. Comprehensive safeguards will take significantly more effort and expense.

Hey, if it was easy everybody could do it.
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Old March 19, 2013, 10:47   #27
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I have a shop/garage building that has a steel roof and walls. It is grounded too. Except for it's floor (earth and part reinforced concrete), two smallish windows and garage doors, it is steel covered. Can I expect some shielding from this?
The windows are a big problem no matter how small. A metal screen over them will help. There are also two (or three) types of EMP. First is the natural kind like the Carrington Event of 1859. Second is the artificial kind from a nuke event. And third (or a sub class of the second) is a nuke that takes advantage of the Compton Affect. The only way to shield against the third kind is a totally sealed metal box. Should the third type be in play the EM wave will get in even through the seem in the door.

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Old March 20, 2013, 11:50   #28
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FYI, Watch news later today. Iran is finishing it's weapons. Gen II fat man design. 200Kt type yeild.
Note, last satellite launch was a south east launch which with a 12 degree change would have brought it over Kansas coming from the SE on first orbit.
Think FOBS.
Things are going to get interesting in the mid east over the next couple of months.
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Old March 20, 2013, 12:03   #29
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There have alway been rogue nations. But now, there are two of these with nuclear capabilities.

Iran will wait until they have several nukes so that they can blanket most of Israel in one shot. And don't you think Israel knows this? And will strike first?

And N. Korea, wouldn't they like to detonate three high altitude nukes over CONUS and some more over Japan and S. Korea at the same time?

The world as we knew it has changed. WWIII anyone?

Rogue nation = A nation who's leaders act irrationally.
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Old March 20, 2013, 18:10   #30
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There have alway been rogue nations. But now, there are two of these with nuclear capabilities.

Iran will wait until they have several nukes so that they can blanket most of Israel in one shot. And don't you think Israel knows this? And will strike first?

And N. Korea, wouldn't they like to detonate three high altitude nukes over CONUS and some more over Japan and S. Korea at the same time?

The world as we knew it has changed. WWIII anyone?

Rogue nation = A nation who's leaders act irrationally.
Using your definition the US is a rouge nation.
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Old March 20, 2013, 18:13   #31
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Using your definition the US is a rouge nation.
Lot of folks around the globe would agree with that!
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Old March 22, 2013, 15:29   #32
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Might want to rethink that one. The 'pulse' part of EMP is the kicker. The rise time of the pulse is the reciprocal of the frequency. Get that fast enough and chicken wire might as well be tissue paper.

A nuke derived EMP pulse is quite good on achieving a spectacularly short rise time.

Distance is your friend in addition to shielding. Penetration through soil with a normal moisture content is also limited.
This. The E1 component of a high altitude nuclear detonation is very fast and very sharp (< 1 microsecond, > 6 MW/square meter), and we have little that is hardened against it. The 1962 Pacific ocean Starfish Prime test took out tons of infrastructure in Hawaii, including traffic signals and telecom circuits. Consider that at the time, pretty much everything was analog and the weapons were not as powerful, you can see what a bad situation we'd be in today.
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Old April 03, 2013, 20:54   #33
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I have my important stuff packed in these:

http://techprotectbag.com/

Inside my big ass safe:-)
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Old April 03, 2013, 21:35   #34
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get your wireless up and running and let the wife micro a meal for 20 min... See if you get any connection...

I am an expert by no reason, but I get pissed when she does it... I cannot imagine what would happen with an EMP and I am glad people are working on stuff like this. (AKA why I still have an 84 TLC)
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Old April 03, 2013, 22:56   #35
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From Haney...
"You want LESS inductance. Fatter conductors (woven metallic strap is far better than wire), multiple ground rods, distributed connections from the structure to those rods. You want the shortest distance to the discharge points (rods) with the least amount of bends in the strapping possible."

All listed are also standards for grounding antenna towers,as per my recent ARRL test...
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Old April 03, 2013, 23:03   #36
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I cannot imagine what would happen with an EMP and I am glad people are working on stuff like this.
Read "Once Second After". See http://www.amazon.com/One-Second-Aft.../dp/0765356864
I bought three of these. Gave one to my son (Lt. US Navy) and two to my neighbors who I noticed have common sense, unlike some who think the US government is on par with N. Korea and Iran.

A more complete description of the book is on Wikipedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After
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Old April 03, 2013, 23:28   #37
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Read "Once Second After". See http://www.amazon.com/One-Second-Aft.../dp/0765356864
I bought three of these. Gave one to my son (Lt. US Navy) and two to my neighbors who I noticed have common sense, unlike some who think the US government is on par with N. Korea and Iran.

A more complete description of the book is on Wikipedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After

Great book!
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Old April 04, 2013, 13:17   #38
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There have alway been rogue nations. But now, there are two of these with nuclear capabilities.

Iran will wait until they have several nukes so that they can blanket most of Israel in one shot. And don't you think Israel knows this? And will strike first?

And N. Korea, wouldn't they like to detonate three high altitude nukes over CONUS and some more over Japan and S. Korea at the same time?

The world as we knew it has changed. WWIII anyone?

Rogue nation = A nation who's leaders act irrationally.
Hmm... Iran, hasn't attacked anyone in ages, was relatively stable until we meddled back in the 50s and then allowed the crazies to take over in the 70s...

Let's not forget our ally Pakistan, you know, the guys who created the Taliban, offered them sanctuary, where Osama was supposedly hiding out all this time next door to a Paki government agency building...

I'd say Pakistan was a bigger threat than Iran...

Syria, where we have been aiding and arming AlQaeda to overthrow Assad...

Oh yeah, let's not forget The Colonel in Libya, you know, who was trying to modernise Libya and keep the crazies at bay? So we go in and help AlQaeda overthwo his government... kind of like we helped the Muslim Brotherhood overthrow Mubarrak (sp?) in Egypt, replacing a generally secular somewhat pro-american regime with the crazies, once again...

I really think the whole standard 'Axis of Evil Nations out to Get Us' meme is almost cartoonish compared to what's really been going on... and what is planned for us all...
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Old April 04, 2013, 14:58   #39
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Using your definition the US is a rouge nation.
Please learn how to spell "ROGUE"!!!

Rouge is what you probably put on your cheeks this morning.
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Old April 04, 2013, 17:45   #40
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I'ma gonna' make it tougher. You mentioned frequency of the pulse, which is also the reciprocal of the rise time. Now that grounding thing.

IF your grounding system has sufficient inductance at the frequency it is subjected to, it may not have a positive effect at all. It becomes a "choke" in electrical terms and isolates that fast rise time pulse from being able to deliver current to ground.

You want LESS inductance. Fatter conductors (woven metallic strap is far better than wire), multiple ground rods, distributed connections from the structure to those rods. You want the shortest distance to the discharge points (rods) with the least amount of bends in the strapping possible.

Right angles look very neat and professional in your ground wiring. Avoid that like the plague. Curves, not angles.

You're trying to tackle a difficult technical challenge.

Limited protection from an EMP event is fairly easy. Comprehensive safeguards will take significantly more effort and expense.

Hey, if it was easy everybody could do it.
If you ever have the time or patience, could you do a quick, down, and dirty schematic of this idea with a large enough box to hold the items being discussed.

THAT would be much appreciated.

Also, one question about the interior of the box. Would the items have to be suspended on insulators of some type? If so, explain.

Thanks in advance.
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Old April 05, 2013, 08:55   #41
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Please learn how to spell "ROGUE"!!!

Rouge is what you probably put on your cheeks this morning.
FUNNY!

If things keep going as they are we might actually become a ROUGE nation!
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Old June 05, 2013, 19:04   #42
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Might want to rethink that one. The 'pulse' part of EMP is the kicker. The rise time of the pulse is the reciprocal of the frequency. Get that fast enough and chicken wire might as well be tissue paper.

A nuke derived EMP pulse is quite good on achieving a spectacularly short rise time.

Distance is your friend in addition to shielding. Penetration through soil with a normal moisture content is also limited.
Agreed, a serious faraday cage is much more than wrapping some chicken wire around a box...
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Old June 05, 2013, 20:02   #43
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If you ever have the time or patience, could you do a quick, down, and dirty schematic of this idea with a large enough box to hold the items being discussed.

Missed this post, sorry.

Far as the box, if I wanted one I'd go to a HVAC contractor that can fabricate rigid duct and plenums. Aluminum boxes of almost any size you want with a (somewhat) thermally insulated interior. Rolled seams if possible.

Any other corner seam can be made more rigid and RF tight by installing aluminum angle stock over the seam. You don't need anything thicker than the stuff they make continuous gutter out of.

Make the door like you would a shoe box lid. But do add an additional 'lip' inside the door that laps onto the inside of the wall of the box. This needs to fit without gaps, and the longer the overlap of the lid and box the better.

I'll see if I can come up with a grounding drawing.
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Old June 05, 2013, 21:13   #44
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Just an Idea, I use Airlines shipping containers with a few mods for faraday cages, smaller boxes are easier to get, all aluminum parts on most units, some I have scrounged up were free, look around at larger airports.
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Old June 05, 2013, 21:25   #45
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Sounds like something I'd like to read. But if he really wanted to get the word out, he would put it out on Kindle at $10 instead a $50 paperback.
Paid for with government funding? Creative Commons no-commercial-use
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Old June 06, 2013, 08:06   #46
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Would surplus metal ammo cans be helpful if used with the EMP bags listed above for small devices?

It sounds like multiple layers of metal surrounding the object to be protected is the way to go if you don't have a dedicated room.

Just trying to think of things that many of us have around the house.
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Old June 06, 2013, 13:53   #47
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Just trying to think of things that many of us have around the house.
A 55 gallon steel open top drum with the lid on, retaining band snugged down and grounded is damn near impervious. And they are less than 50 bucks new.
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Old June 06, 2013, 14:49   #48
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A 55 gallon steel open top drum with the lid on, retaining band snugged down and grounded is damn near impervious. And they are less than 50 bucks new.
G R O U N D I N G - - - > Being the operative and most important word!
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Old June 06, 2013, 16:05   #49
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G R O U N D I N G - - - > Being the operative and most important word!
If grounding is a concern, use a Ufer Ground- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground This beats the hell out of driving grounding rods.
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Old June 07, 2013, 19:59   #50
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Maine just passed LD-131 to begin to protect the Maine electrical grid from EMP. Seems North Carolina and Texas are looking at the ecomonics of EMP on the local economies and are looking at keeping their grids alive, given Maine's proactive movement. From what I've been told the locals don't see anything from DC and want to make sure their ecomonies recover first, independent of Washington.
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