Please help identifying these mags. 30 rd.

[Riddbits]

I picked up this pair of mags a little while ago at a Reno, NV gun show. I am not familiar with their construction and was hoping someone could tell me where they are from. They fit right into my metric FAL's and feed fine. The followers are marked with the Brit ED proof and 960-3059. Both mags are numbered as well. I have #12 and #20. Body, floor plate and retaining plate are all numbered. The finish is a very light parkerizing. The floor plate has a retaining tab on the back of it to work in conjunction with the retaining plate to keep everything in place.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Pics as soon as I can figure out how to do so.

[Olaf]

Modified Bren mags? are they straight or curved

[Tgeorgi2002]

Are they curved? If so, they could be modified Bren mags. Are there any remnants of green/yellow/blue paint on them? Could be modified inch mags used in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, or south Africa.

[Riddbits]

Definitely not modified Bren mags. I have one of those to compare with. The construction is different. These mags are two piece construction and the back of these mags wraps over themselves. Also, there are no markings anywhere on the body of the mag other than the 12 or 20 stamps. They are curved and the curve is more pronounced than the Brit mag. The mag catch is punched out just like the front of a standard metric mag. There are only two bullet alignment groves in the bodies of the mags. The rear one is really close to the back of the mag and super shallow. The front one is pronounced and is further back from the front of the mag than either an inch or metric mag.

Looks like I can't post attachments yet.

[Tgeorgi2002]

Originally Posted by Riddbits

Definitely not modified Bren mags. I have one of those to compare with. The construction is different. These mags are two piece construction and the back of these mags wraps over themselves. Also, there are no markings anywhere on the body of the mag other than the 12 or 20 stamps. They are curved and the curve is more pronounced than the Brit mag. The mag catch is punched out just like the front of a standard metric mag. There are only two bullet alignment groves in the bodies of the mags. The rear one is really close to the back of the mag and super shallow. The front one is pronounced and is further back from the front of the mag than either an inch or metric mag.

Looks like I can't post attachments yet.

Send me the pic to tgeorgi2002@hotmail.com and I will post it.

[Riddbits]

Pics on the way. Thank you for doing this.

[Tgeorgi2002]

Got the pics. Never seen these mags before, new one on me. Hold for pics...

[Tgeorgi2002]

[EX1]

Hello it may be another enfield made trials mag for the Bren 7.62 conversion.I have around 12 Enfield made 7.62 MM X3E1 30 rd mags and they are metric as well. The first conversions for the Bren were done by FN then Enfield made the X3 metric curverd mag.I will try to post pics later.EX1

[EX1]

Here is a pic of the X3 mag

[EX1]

Another pic

[EX1]

Another pic. Mag is marked E 7.62 MM X3E1 nickel follower regular metric floorplate and metric beak.Sorry for the Hijack.EX1

[Riddbits]

No worries on the hijack. These are definitely made to go into a metric mag well. One person suggested that they were domestically made in Rhodesia for their Bren conversion, but I have no idea. The only markings are the two digit numbers and the followers. The followers could be replacements, but I don't know.

Still looking.......

[EX1]

From what I understand the Straight metric 30s were for the South African Bren conversions .But these could be as well.EX1

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Those are some very NICE mags!

I'll have to do some reading, it might take me a while to confirm what I think they might be.

How much do you want for them

[EX1]

Come on Kevin what are they? X3E2? L3A2?

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Nope, not X3E2 or L3A2

This is the X3E1 30 Round Magazine for the X10E1/L4A1 Bren Gun


This is the X3E2 30 round Magazine X10E1/L4A1 Bren Gun


I'm still delving into the background of the magazines and have asked an expert to wade in on the topic when hes available.

[L4A4]

As far as South Africa is concerned I'm only aware of there use and manufacture of 20rnd magazines for their FAL's and 7.62 Bren conversions.





Rhodesian new made magazines (that I have seen) are unmarked and straight and of conventional construction.
Their modified extended 20 rnd mags speak for themselves.



The magazine also does not look like an early X3 magazine for the X10E1 7.62 experimental Bren as the original FN magazine design had inward bottom plate retaining lips (as per Kevins/NZ L1A1 Collectors pics of the X3E1 mag) The design was soon after altered to outward retaining lips on the X3E2 mags by converting the X3E1 mags and re-marking them to E2.



The magazine refered to has outward retaining lips.

Early experimental magazine platforms from FN were bare with no markings,later UK made ones had the drawing number (e.g. MG4796).NSN coded platforms later still, but 960-3059 doesn't tally with Bren that I can find ......may be L1A1 ?

Very interesting and would very much like to know more about it !

Why the scollop in the spine of the magazine and the punched magazine catch retainer ?

Will be watching this thread with interest to see if any other FN weapons come into consideration.

ATB Kevin

[Riddbits]

The quest continues.

[Riddbits]

I did some more digging and internet surfing last night. I can't find any record of British trials mags that don't have any sort of proof marks on them. That leads me to believe that the followers are either replacements or what was available when these were made. I don't think that they are "one off's" as they are too well made and appear to be part of a set (numbers 12 and 20). The two sides of the body of these mags are stamped out and are pretty tough steel and they are very well made.

What countries issued 30 round mags with their FALO rifles? Who didn't? Could these be trials mags for one of the countries that ultimately didn't adopt a 30 round magazine?

Any further ideas?

[Spktyr]

Well, the follower's British, per this thread:
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289626

Edit: Just found this: http://www.ak47.net/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=7&t=317416

DSA imported a bunch of British 30rd mags made for the L4 Bren Light Machine Gun. They are easily recognized as they have a curve. DSA modified the front lug to fit a metric FAL, and these are the most common 30rd mags available. They usually work fine, but when fully loaded, the first round may have difficulty loading due to spring pressure.

The "12" stamping looks rather crude and in a font I associate with India in other products. Could they be Indian-made Bren mags that have been modified?

[L4A4]

Indian made 7.62 Bren mags are the same as UK manufactured ones with an inch pattern locking lug.



Examples from SAF,RFI and OFT Indian ordnance factories above.

Any chance of a picture of the internal components of the mystery magazine ?

ATB Kevin

[Riddbits]

I'll take some, but I still can't post attachments. I'll see what I can do.

The 12 and the 20 stamps are hand done. My thought is that they were in some sort of mag chest or vehicle or something. Either that or they are stamped to identify the magazine for testing purposes. I don't know. As I said, there are no markings at all on the bodies except the 12 or the 20.

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

I'm still trying to confirm what I think they might be, I'm sure the number will actually relate to being an ID number. Like I said I have a lot of paperwork to go through to try and find what I think they are, or at least what they might be.

Like L4A4 asked I would like to see a photo of the springs and retainer plate from inside the magazines. The Followers don't mean anything, they are standard British L1A1 Followers, but they could of easily been swapped out but someone over time. As could the the springs and retainer plates. But if we are lucky maybe they are still the original versions and might also provide a clue to the lineage of the magazines.

[Riddbits]

Care to drop a hint as to what they may be?

[L4A4]

Some more pictures of the magazine internals emailed to me by Riddbits in the hope it will help ID.















.......All very strange,but very interesting !

Kevin

[IRONWORKER]

Originally Posted by NZ L1A1 Collector

I'm still trying to confirm what I think they might be, I'm sure the number will actually relate to being an ID number. Like I said I have a lot of paperwork to go through to try and find what I think they are, or at least what they might be.

So what do you think they are?

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Since there are now photo's of the internals it helps a lot and has changed my thoughts of what they might of been produced for. The information I was chasing didn't materialize, but the following are my observations of the magazines. This is only my 'opinion' as I have NO paperwork confirming it.


A. The design of assembly is different, probably an effort to simplify production of the magazine. I can't quite work out if its from 1 piece of material or two.


B. The case's side grooves (2) match FN's design for their 30 round trial magazines for the ".30 cal new round conversion" (Bren Gun Saga p268, fig267), so not British, which have 3 grooves.


B. There is no finish applied to the Retainer Plate, which says to me its a proposed item and also note it has distancing ribs to protect the compressed spring and would ensure X number of rounds are put into the magazine. (HOW MANY ROUNDS DOSE IT HOLD?).


C. The Spring is NOT a typical X3E1 or L4A1 or even FAL/L1A1 magazine spring, to me it screams G3 or M14 except it has 11 coils compared to 7 for the G3/M14 magazines. This could indicate a possibility of its origin.


D. The Magazines are 'SAMPLE' Magazines made for design and limited trial evaluation of a proposed design and would of been part of a short, maybe 50 only production run (maybe less, maybe more).

CONCLUSIONS
At first I thought that maybe these were part of the early X10E1 Bren Gun Magazine trials, but it should of had typical FAL springs/internals or X3E1 internals. This doesn't.

With the photos of the internals I've now altered my view, it is possible this type of magazine was initially designed for evaluation on German G1 rifles that were being trialed against the CETME.

This would account for the G3 type spring and the modified bottom plate and the the other differences with the Retainer. When the production run was done a limited number of magazines were supplied to the UK, and Canada to evaluate as well as they would still fit the FAL/X8/EX and X10E1 weapons.

Once evaluated by the British the magazines would of been put somewhere, its very possible these magazines were found during a clean out of a warehouse and chucked into the L4A1 magazine chests and then sold off with all the other L4A1 magazines/Chests and made their way to the US?

They are unique and really shouldn't be getting worn down.


Then again I could be completely wrong about these.

[Riddbits]

Thank you Kevin.

I've only run them at the range once to see how they fed. They do hold and work with 30 rounds. I will take your advice and put them aside (for now).

Your conclusions sound plausible. I hadn't even considered the G1 trials. I see more research in my future!

Edited to add: What about trials by countries that adopted the FALO in whatever form they preferred? I would think that these mags would be more designated for a FALO rather than a standard rifle. Just a thought.

[Riddbits]

All of this leads me to another question; Should I swap out the followers with standard metric followers? Or just leave than as is until they can be identified?

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Leave them as they are, you don't know what version of Metric follower was in them originally.

Its a bit like someone having a ratty looking (Insert antique) and then deciding to 'clean it' so it looks better and will be worth more, but in fact has just destroyed the value.

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Ohhhhh on second thoughts........... polish the crap out of it !!!

[Riddbits]

Think I will stick to advice string #1!