Re-Welded Saw Cut Recievers.

**308/223shooter** · July 16, 2012, 23:44

Anyone ever seen or heard of someone doing builds on one? I met a bloke at yesterdays gun show. Claimed he had a Brazilian FAL and was missing the bi-pod. I asked him what type of handguards were on it and he pointed to a set of plastic Inch handguards I had on my table. I said a bi-pod won't work with that type of handguard. That's when he said maybe he'd just sell it, was I interested, and by the way the reciever has been re-welded. WTF?? My BS meter was peaking along with the alarm bells. What twit would re-weld an upper for a build? I asked him where was it cut and he drew a line right through the locking shoulder on my display PARA. I told him I didn't want it, and he should have a knowlagable FAL smith inspect it before he shoots it. Says he's had it since '94.
What'cha think? Fed gone fishing or some troll without a clue?

Chalk_2 · July 17, 2012, 00:27

Could have been either but thankfully you knew better.

FUUN063 · July 17, 2012, 02:48

You could always look at it and find out. Maybe could have taken the receiver off and got a bargain on just the kit. Who knows? But, I doubt it was welded back together through the area that he pointed to. And, yes, I have seen scrap pieces of receiver welded back into a serviceable, semi-auto build years ago. Older, two piece, early demill saw cuts back in the rear section only.

Leland

justashooter · July 17, 2012, 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUUN063

Older, two piece, early demill saw cuts back in the rear section only.
Leland

the FAL receiver is similar to AISI 4340 and heat treated to about 280 BHN with attendant tensile and yield improvements in the area from front trunion to locking lug. rearward the tempering is not as high. no weld repair between barrel threads and locking shoulder will be equivalent unless it is like metal and re-normalised/tempered, which would spoil final dimensional. E7018 or similar wire FCAW/GMAW in "as-welded" state will have values and heat affected zone issues that will cut the yield strength in half.

Powderfinger · July 17, 2012, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashooter

the FAL receiver is similar to AISI 4340 and heat treated to about 280 BHN with attendant tensile and yield improvements in the area from front trunion to locking lug. rearward the tempering is not as high. no weld repair between barrel threads and locking shoulder will be equivalent unless it is like metal and re-normalised/tempered, which would spoil final dimensional. E7018 or similar wire FCAW/GMAW in "as-welded" state will have values and heat affected zone issues that will cut the yield strength in half.

Now, that there's the type of "know how" that first brought me to the Files.

**308/223shooter** · July 17, 2012, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powderfinger

Now, that there's the type of "know how" that first brought me to the Files.

Don't BS us Brian, you're addicted and you know it! Wait till you handle an SLR. Then you'll really be sorry.

Powderfinger · July 17, 2012, 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by 308/223shooter

Don't BS us Brian, you're addicted and you know it! Wait till you handle an SLR. Then you'll really be sorry.

FUUN063 · July 17, 2012, 23:00

Pretty much what I have found, I just dumbed it down a bit. I probably would not fire a welded up receiver that is in front of the locking lug unless we were any where near the Khyber Pass and all I had was a hammer, file and boolits!

I have seen them welded when only the cuts were in the back. No MIG welding receivers for me. For things that need this kind of attention, TIG is probably the best way to go. And, use the oven afterwards, followed up with critical measuring and the like. That goes for others such M14's, BREN guns, etc. as well.

Leland

**Cava3r4** · July 21, 2012, 10:18

I have a friend who had welded M-14's that he bought with the paperwork etc from whoever that "famous guy" was back in the early to mid 90's doing this stuff.
The ATF showed up at his house and told him he could turn over the recievers, or he could come with them downtown.
He had already talked to a lawyer (this was the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" gig).
He already had the recievers stripped of parts and handed them over upon his legal advice.
He lost I think it was like about $500 a piece for these, can't remember for sure.

Czechsix · July 31, 2012, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cava3r4

I have a friend who had welded M-14's that he bought with the paperwork etc from whoever that "famous guy" was back in the early to mid 90's doing this stuff.
The ATF showed up at his house and told him he could turn over the recievers, or he could come with them downtown.
He had already talked to a lawyer (this was the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" gig).
He already had the recievers stripped of parts and handed them over upon his legal advice.
He lost I think it was like about $500 a piece for these, can't remember for sure.

Hmmm. Then their story must have changed....what about all the folks now that have MG receiver chunks getting rewelded? The ATF story now is, if it's been destroyed legally, then it's no longer a firearm. Therefore, once you weld it back together, since it was'nt a firearm any more, you're just manufacturing a new one. Which was never a machinegun, since it wasn't a firearm....goddamit my head hurts.

Dr Shock · July 31, 2012, 21:31

Its legally fine to weld them back together. Scrap is scrap. Theres plenty of legal and how to info on the web. If you dont know what you are doing, dont do it! It requires some knowledge on both fronts.

Czechsix · July 31, 2012, 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Shock

Its legally fine to weld them back together. Scrap is scrap. Theres plenty of legal and how to info on the web. If you dont know what you are doing, dont do it! It requires some knowledge on both fronts.

Yep, I was referring to Cav's post about the M14 receivers. Of course, good chance that those weren't properly demil'd either, and that was the original issue.

Dr Shock · July 31, 2012, 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czechsix

Yep, I was referring to Cav's post about the M14 receivers. Of course, good chance that those weren't properly demil'd either, and that was the original issue.

Yeah I wasnt aimin my comments at anyone really. Just peevs me when I see these threads. always the once a machine gun always a machine gun and the you'll blow your face off posts... It can be done, just dont be stupid about it and if you arent skilled or dont have the right equipment... Then dont.

yovinny · August 01, 2012, 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cava3r4

I have a friend who had welded M-14's that he bought with the paperwork etc from whoever that "famous guy" was back in the early to mid 90's doing this stuff.
The ATF showed up at his house and told him he could turn over the recievers, or he could come with them downtown.
He had already talked to a lawyer (this was the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" gig).
He already had the recievers stripped of parts and handed them over upon his legal advice.
He lost I think it was like about $500 a piece for these, can't remember for sure.

Whatever happens to be the latest news, Cava3r4's story is spot on.
I KNOW for a fact that 2 such re-welded M14's were removed from the dealer who recieved the guns out of my uncle's estate, by BATF agents back about 2002-3

**BUFF** · August 01, 2012, 18:58

Google "MKS receiver confiscations."

Dr Shock · August 01, 2012, 19:30

The source of the "you cant legally do that" is from M14 receivers. They werent cut right or something as someone else said,I dont recall. The OP was about a welded FAL. Besides who wants an M14 when you can have a FAL??

Arby · August 01, 2012, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Shock

The source of the "you cant legally do that" is from M14 receivers. They werent cut right or something as someone else said,I dont recall. The OP was about a welded FAL.

Mike Kelly had scads of counts against him. He was convicted on very few of those counts, but he was convicted. IIRC, there was not just the issue of how the receivers were rebuilt, but how the original parts were brought back into the U.S. from Israel.

I recall reading that there are some legally re-welded M-14 receivers. Some made by Hahn Machine come to mind, and I seem to recall that there was at least one other smith that did it "right" according to the BATF.

I would not buy any re-welded M-14 or FAL receiver if the seller couldn't convince me beyond all doubt that it was rebuilt in accordance with procedures okayed by the BATF. I'd also want a reference to something published by the BATF indicating what the acceptible procedures were, so I could determine that the rewelde receiver was, indeed, legal.

Then there is the other issue of structural integrity of the re-welded receiver.

twodog · August 03, 2012, 15:06

Mike Kelly was convicted of 6 violations one was dismissed. Here is the transcript of the court document detailing what the violations were, what they confiscated and the circumstances of the case http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions...d/054775.U.pdf.
Bottom line is welding a former machine gun receiver back together without permission from the ATF will get you in a lot of trouble.

Oxmix · August 03, 2012, 23:01

This is the letter that MKSpecialties sent with their M14 rifles to convince the buyers that the rifles were legal to own. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just about every one of the 300 or so rifles were confiscated by the BATF.

Fortunately none of the purchasers were charged with illegal possession of a machine gun. The BATF could have pressed charges, but felt that the buyers had in all honesty purchased what they believed was a legal product. I'm not sure if the outcome for the buyers would have been the same had this letter from MKS not been included with the rifle and part of the MKS sales program.

Regards

Ox

IRONWORKER · August 03, 2012, 23:34

The MKS receivers were works of art..... Flawless re-welds, shame what happened to em'

twodog · August 04, 2012, 20:48

MKS receivers were not demilled by torch cutting in three places they were saw-cut which made them easier to weld back together. That was one of the problems with them as the rules for demilling receivers had changed from saw-cut to torch cut.

Tim Dreas · August 04, 2012, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by twodog

MKS receivers were not demilled by torch cutting in three places they were saw-cut which made them easier to weld back together. That was one of the problems with them as the rules for demilling receivers had changed from saw-cut to torch cut.

The rules didn't change. The three cut rule was already there. What happened was the earlier two-piece cut M14 receivers were demilled to US military specs with one cut through the trigger area and those were in the US and demilled for the US-military and not imported. That was accepted as scrap for US military firearms. Had they been civilian or imported firearms, they would have required three cuts. The MKS receivers were imported and only demilled to US military specs. The view of this was that they were improperly demilled for importing purposes. Had they been demilled for the US military they would have been alright but they weren't demilled for the US military and were imported from Israel.

twodog · August 05, 2012, 19:13

From what I have read the saw-cut demilled receivers that turn up occasionally, were the result of old import regs that allowed a saw cut. Now, a receiver has to be torch-cut.

**Abominog** · August 05, 2012, 22:08

Back when I was young, ATF approved saw cut receivers were the standard. MG42, StG44, etc. They were all saw cut.

Then somebody at ATF got bright on this, and the rules changed to torch cut, and then later again when somebody got even brighter ATF specified exactly what had to be destroyed in the torch cutting process.

Of course, in 1972, when ATF lost the "once a machine gun" case in the Arnold decision, all that ATF crapola got shut down. Except that ATF didn't bother to abide by it, and decided the court could go screw itself.

Since then, with the exception of few cases, the problem is that nobody can afford to defend themselves. So it becomes, at best, a default in ATF's favor.

You can be prosecuted for anything. It costs the government nothing.

FUUN063 · August 05, 2012, 23:09

I remember some saw cut receivers in my stash many years ago. It included, IIRC, several STEN guns of various flavors, an FAL or two, Yugo sub-gun 9mm with folding stock and a few others that evade my memory right now. All gone now. While we are on the subject, I even remember when ATF allowed AK-47's in with the original receiver and the third hole simply had a shortened third axis pin installed and swaged or welded over to simply fill the hole. These were Maadi's. I think I had four of them!! I still like the STENs and would not mind having an original. I also remember when a friend and I passed on a full wooden crate of registered tubes forgotten in a guy's garage!! I think some still these being built up as transferable STENs and Sterlings. Lancasters are cool, too.

Leland

justashooter · August 06, 2012, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUUN063

I even remember when ATF allowed AK-47's in with the original receiver and the third hole simply had a shortened third axis pin installed and swaged or welded over to simply fill the hole. These were Maadi's. I think I had four of them!!

ATF has since re-classified the batch of chinese AK with similar filled 3rd hole as machine guns and confiscated on the spot.

trouble with the rewelded M14 receivers is that they could still accept full auto parts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twodog

Bottom line is welding a former machine gun receiver back together without permission from the ATF will get you in a lot of trouble.

been done thousands of times. no worries. just make sure the gun is reassembled after it has been converted to reject full auto parts.

twodog · August 06, 2012, 12:31

I was talking about the saw cut receivers not the torch cut ones that have most of the receiver replaced. Do a saw cut machine gun receiver without permission and you'll end up like Mike Kelly. Odds were that if Mr. Kelly hadn't thumbed his nose at the ATF after they told him to wait until they checked his receivers out, he would have been OK. Instead he kept assembling and selling them.

July 16, 2012, 23:44	#1
308/223shooter Airborne Combat Engineer Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 15405 Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: pacific northwest Posts: 2,293	Re-Welded Saw Cut Recievers. Anyone ever seen or heard of someone doing builds on one? I met a bloke at yesterdays gun show. Claimed he had a Brazilian FAL and was missing the bi-pod. I asked him what type of handguards were on it and he pointed to a set of plastic Inch handguards I had on my table. I said a bi-pod won't work with that type of handguard. That's when he said maybe he'd just sell it, was I interested, and by the way the reciever has been re-welded. WTF?? My BS meter was peaking along with the alarm bells. What twit would re-weld an upper for a build? I asked him where was it cut and he drew a line right through the locking shoulder on my display PARA. I told him I didn't want it, and he should have a knowlagable FAL smith inspect it before he shoots it. Says he's had it since '94. What'cha think? Fed gone fishing or some troll without a clue? __________________ "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."A very old song my dad used to sing. If good fences make good neighbors, I need the bloody Berlin Wall. Attornies are like hookers.You sometimes spend lots of cash on them,till you find one who's really good.

August 01, 2012, 18:58	#15
BUFF Old Fart Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 789 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 7,141	Google "MKS receiver confiscations." __________________ BUFF

August 03, 2012, 23:34	#20
IRONWORKER Registered FALaholic #: 48581 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Millspring NC Posts: 2,652	The MKS receivers were works of art..... Flawless re-welds, shame what happened to em' __________________ Lead armorer at M14 parts.com

August 05, 2012, 22:08	#24
Abominog Old Fart Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 372 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Finger Lakes, NY Posts: 6,557	Back when I was young, ATF approved saw cut receivers were the standard. MG42, StG44, etc. They were all saw cut. Then somebody at ATF got bright on this, and the rules changed to torch cut, and then later again when somebody got even brighter ATF specified exactly what had to be destroyed in the torch cutting process. Of course, in 1972, when ATF lost the "once a machine gun" case in the Arnold decision, all that ATF crapola got shut down. Except that ATF didn't bother to abide by it, and decided the court could go screw itself. Since then, with the exception of few cases, the problem is that nobody can afford to defend themselves. So it becomes, at best, a default in ATF's favor. You can be prosecuted for anything. It costs the government nothing. __________________ They will live a long time, these men of the South Pacific. They, like their victories, will be remembered as long as our generation lives. Longer and longer shadows will obscure them, until their Guadalcanal sounds distant on the ear like Shiloh and Valley Forge. --- Michener, Tales of the South Pacific Tempus Edax Rerum

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July 17, 2012, 00:27	#2
Chalk_2 Registered FALaholic #: 13760 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 876	Could have been either but thankfully you knew better.

July 17, 2012, 02:48	#3
FUUN063 Computer Illiterate Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 35576 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Converse, Indiana Posts: 4,603	You could always look at it and find out. Maybe could have taken the receiver off and got a bargain on just the kit. Who knows? But, I doubt it was welded back together through the area that he pointed to. And, yes, I have seen scrap pieces of receiver welded back into a serviceable, semi-auto build years ago. Older, two piece, early demill saw cuts back in the rear section only. Leland

July 17, 2012, 23:00	#8
FUUN063 Computer Illiterate Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 35576 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Converse, Indiana Posts: 4,603	Pretty much what I have found, I just dumbed it down a bit. I probably would not fire a welded up receiver that is in front of the locking lug unless we were any where near the Khyber Pass and all I had was a hammer, file and boolits! I have seen them welded when only the cuts were in the back. No MIG welding receivers for me. For things that need this kind of attention, TIG is probably the best way to go. And, use the oven afterwards, followed up with critical measuring and the like. That goes for others such M14's, BREN guns, etc. as well. Leland

July 21, 2012, 10:18	#9
Cava3r4 Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 6560 Join Date: May 2002 Location: AZ...originally from St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,300	I have a friend who had welded M-14's that he bought with the paperwork etc from whoever that "famous guy" was back in the early to mid 90's doing this stuff. The ATF showed up at his house and told him he could turn over the recievers, or he could come with them downtown. He had already talked to a lawyer (this was the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" gig). He already had the recievers stripped of parts and handed them over upon his legal advice. He lost I think it was like about $500 a piece for these, can't remember for sure.

July 31, 2012, 21:31	#11
Dr Shock Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 35667 Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 714	Its legally fine to weld them back together. Scrap is scrap. Theres plenty of legal and how to info on the web. If you dont know what you are doing, dont do it! It requires some knowledge on both fronts.

August 01, 2012, 19:30	#16
Dr Shock Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 35667 Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 714	The source of the "you cant legally do that" is from M14 receivers. They werent cut right or something as someone else said,I dont recall. The OP was about a welded FAL. Besides who wants an M14 when you can have a FAL??

August 03, 2012, 15:06	#18
twodog Registered FALaholic #: 750 Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 602	Mike Kelly was convicted of 6 violations one was dismissed. Here is the transcript of the court document detailing what the violations were, what they confiscated and the circumstances of the case http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions...d/054775.U.pdf. Bottom line is welding a former machine gun receiver back together without permission from the ATF will get you in a lot of trouble.

August 03, 2012, 23:01	#19
Oxmix Registered FALaholic #: 7952 Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 42	This is the letter that MKSpecialties sent with their M14 rifles to convince the buyers that the rifles were legal to own. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just about every one of the 300 or so rifles were confiscated by the BATF. Fortunately none of the purchasers were charged with illegal possession of a machine gun. The BATF could have pressed charges, but felt that the buyers had in all honesty purchased what they believed was a legal product. I'm not sure if the outcome for the buyers would have been the same had this letter from MKS not been included with the rifle and part of the MKS sales program. Regards Ox

August 04, 2012, 20:48	#21
twodog Registered FALaholic #: 750 Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 602	MKS receivers were not demilled by torch cutting in three places they were saw-cut which made them easier to weld back together. That was one of the problems with them as the rules for demilling receivers had changed from saw-cut to torch cut.

August 05, 2012, 19:13	#23
twodog Registered FALaholic #: 750 Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 602	From what I have read the saw-cut demilled receivers that turn up occasionally, were the result of old import regs that allowed a saw cut. Now, a receiver has to be torch-cut.

August 05, 2012, 23:09	#25
FUUN063 Computer Illiterate Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 35576 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Converse, Indiana Posts: 4,603	I remember some saw cut receivers in my stash many years ago. It included, IIRC, several STEN guns of various flavors, an FAL or two, Yugo sub-gun 9mm with folding stock and a few others that evade my memory right now. All gone now. While we are on the subject, I even remember when ATF allowed AK-47's in with the original receiver and the third hole simply had a shortened third axis pin installed and swaged or welded over to simply fill the hole. These were Maadi's. I think I had four of them!! I still like the STENs and would not mind having an original. I also remember when a friend and I passed on a full wooden crate of registered tubes forgotten in a guy's garage!! I think some still these being built up as transferable STENs and Sterlings. Lancasters are cool, too. Leland

August 06, 2012, 12:31	#27
twodog Registered FALaholic #: 750 Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 602	I was talking about the saw cut receivers not the torch cut ones that have most of the receiver replaced. Do a saw cut machine gun receiver without permission and you'll end up like Mike Kelly. Odds were that if Mr. Kelly hadn't thumbed his nose at the ATF after they told him to wait until they checked his receivers out, he would have been OK. Instead he kept assembling and selling them.