6th Annual Oregon FAL Shoot OFFICIAL DEBRIEF

[brunop]

In a 'real' competition (which this is not), that makes the most sense. But if it is taken too far in a friendly 'meet', you end up with something more like IROC racing, which no one ever liked. People that come to this event WANT to shoot their different stuff against other people's different stuff - that's why we get Garand shooters in the MBR Drop 10 match - where they are guaranteed to make a mag change 2.5 times for every FAL mag change. That's also why we get 10 round PSL mags 'fighting it out' against 20 round (and did I see a 30 this year?) FAL mags.

I don't want to do a Stock FAL Irons classification, because there are guys who have been coming for years that don't have an FAL. And if they want to shoot a G3, that is cool with me. We can call MBR "MBR Stock Irons" just as easily as "FAL Stock Irons". If someone wants to shoot a Garand, good for them.

Okay - Optics. But if someone wants to shoot a 50.42 Belgian with a scope, it has a stock heavy barrel. Does anyone else get to shoot a heavy barrel? If a guy puts mouse-pads and duct tape on his stock to get a decent cheek-weld, can other people have an adjustable stock?

I'm not trying to be an ass - I want to 'head off' any misunderstanding that could show up in the future - before it happens. And I think that people will bring what they have, and what they have will be what works for them. And I don't want to undo that by requiring that you only get a scope - no stock riser to get the proper sight picture. If one guy wants to have a MagPul PRS (that's what I was running), and another guy wants to have closed-cell non-memory foam padding strapped to a Para stock (that's what I had a few years ago), that should be fine. If another guy can see his scope without a pad, great!

I want to be a "limiter" as in, "You can't have 6.5 Creedmoor and call it an MBR or an MGR - it is neither." I don't want to be a "definer", as in, "You have to have an FAL", or "You have to have your gun set up this way."

I know it's a fine line. I'm trying to err on the side of informal instead of formal competition.

Like for 3 Gun next year: if you supply the shotty again, i will LOVE shooting that M2 (I really, really want one). But if I decide to run an 870, it shouldn't be a new class - we're playing at fun 3 Gun - not going to the Nationals. They're both 12 gauge, and they both hold 5 or 6 - game on. Besides, I should be trying to get better with MY stuff - not yours, and not with mine set up in a way that I don't like and won't keep beyond the current weekend.

Just trying to sort it all in my head, and do it publicly so we can get a group decision in the future. I appreciate the comments.

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by brunop

In a 'real' competition (which this is not), that makes the most sense. But if it is taken too far in a friendly 'meet', you end up with something more like IROC racing, which no one ever liked. People that come to this event WANT to shoot their different stuff against other people's different stuff - that's why we get Garand shooters in the MBR Drop 10 match - where they are guaranteed to make a mag change 2.5 times for every FAL mag change. That's also why we get 10 round PSL mags 'fighting it out' against 20 round (and did I see a 30 this year?) FAL mags.

I don't want to do a Stock FAL Irons classification, because there are guys who have been coming for years that don't have an FAL. And if they want to shoot a G3, that is cool with me. We can call MBR "MBR Stock Irons" just as easily as "FAL Stock Irons". If someone wants to shoot a Garand, good for them.

Okay - Optics. But if someone wants to shoot a 50.42 Belgian with a scope, it has a stock heavy barrel. Does anyone else get to shoot a heavy barrel? If a guy puts mouse-pads and duct tape on his stock to get a decent cheek-weld, can other people have an adjustable stock?

I'm not trying to be an ass - I want to 'head off' any misunderstanding that could show up in the future - before it happens. And I think that people will bring what they have, and what they have will be what works for them. And I don't want to undo that by requiring that you only get a scope - no stock riser to get the proper sight picture. If one guy wants to have a MagPul PRS (that's what I was running), and another guy wants to have closed-cell non-memory foam padding strapped to a Para stock (that's what I had a few years ago), that should be fine. If another guy can see his scope without a pad, great!

I want to be a "limiter" as in, "You can't have 6.5 Creedmoor and call it an MBR or an MGR - it is neither." I don't want to be a "definer", as in, "You have to have an FAL", or "You have to have your gun set up this way."

I know it's a fine line. I'm trying to err on the side of informal instead of formal competition.

Like for 3 Gun next year: if you supply the shotty again, i will LOVE shooting that M2 (I really, really want one). But if I decide to run an 870, it shouldn't be a new class - we're playing at fun 3 Gun - not going to the Nationals. They're both 12 gauge, and they both hold 5 or 6 - game on. Besides, I should be trying to get better with MY stuff - not yours, and not with mine set up in a way that I don't like and won't keep beyond the current weekend.

Just trying to sort it all in my head, and do it publicly so we can get a group decision in the future. I appreciate the comments.

I love you Brunop....

[brunop]

Yeah - you should hear the stuff in my head that I don't say...

[Pluskat]

Originally Posted by brunop

Yeah - you should hear the stuff in my head that I don't say...

uh...I'll take a guess.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7rw8zvNv3Y

[brunop]

You do that every time you guess?

[Tailback]

Just to clarify, the reason I think a mag/clip change should be included, is because that skill is essential to a defensive shooter. Not because I want to game it so Garands are more competative. A rifleman should be able to run his/her weapon. Just my .02 That goes for both semis and bolts.

[brunop]

Just to be clear, the reason I want a mag change in a drop 10 is so someone can beat the 24 second time posted by someone who will remain unnamed a couple of years ago, and I won't be in danger of seeing it posted up periodically at just the wrong time...

Is that wrong of me?

[Black Elk]

ok I have not been sleeping and it is getting very hard to think but id you say you ant to limit it to .30cal and .22 ? have you even asked people what they have been shooting? I konw Bobby shoots a .260Rem in one or two of his FAL not sure what made it to the shoot this year. and I am working on an over caliber version - though it will have scope and bypod w/ extra hvy bbl.

[brunop]

Ask? I stood there for hours and watched people reload. I know what people have been shooting.

And frankly, I don't care if someone is shooting a .260 Remington FAL - whether it is Bobby or Pluskat or sportsnut or vagabond or you. I'm not telling people to not have, bring, or shoot those rifles - just that I'm not keen on making friendly "sorta-competition" into "next gen" competitions, and then into full-blown "equipment-biased" competitions.

I'm suggesting to the group, and asking for feedback on the suggestion, that we 'kill' Unlimited in favor of the "mil-surp" type of competitions - which will mean .30 cal and .22 cal military issue stuff.

Where would the .260 Remington FAL go? Unlimited? MGR? MBR? What if a guy wanted to do a .260 Rem piston AR with heavy barrel? This is the type of questions I don't want to answer a year from now.

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by brunop

Just to be clear, the reason I want a mag change in a drop 10 is so someone can beat the 24 second time posted by someone who will remain unnamed a couple of years ago, and I won't be in danger of seeing it posted up periodically at just the wrong time...

Is that wrong of me?

LOL.... with this purpose in mind I am so diggin the mag change requirement!



But....then we have to move all the poppers back into 100yrds too??

Which is cool. Especially if we are going to try and duplicate the 8x13
steel plates at 200 from the other FAL shoots.

T

[sportsnut]

Damn I don't know what to think, I finally get time away from the smoker this year and actually win an event and now everyone says 250yds is to far for open sights...

I didn't tell anyone but when Vagabond and I built my wining rifle two weeks before the FAL Shoot not only did we headspace it tight, but we also added windage marks to the rear sight. Each mark was calculated for a 10mph cross wind , as we knew it was going to be really windy the day of the shoot. I adjusted my rear sight 2 1/2 marks to compensate for the 25mph wind, and vol-la perfect.

Lol, just kidding.

I'll shoot whatever is decided upon.

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by sportsnut

I didn't tell anyone but when Vagabond and I built my wining rifle two weeks before the FAL Shoot not only did we headspace it tight, but we also added windage marks to the rear sight. Each mark was calculated for a 10mph cross wind , as we knew it was going to be really windy the day of the shoot. I adjusted my rear sight 2 1/2 marks to compensate for the 25mph wind, and vol-la perfect.

Lol, just kidding.

Haha.... I read that and was thinking WOW....what kinda sight is that???
I gots ta git me one of those!

T

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by sportsnut

I'll shoot whatever is decided upon.

Ditto.

Besides...to quote Bobby Boucher.... I don't like confrontations... I'm a Virgo

T

[Black Elk]

Hey Jeff don't get bent now, you are supposed to be one of the "nice guys" around here remember..

I'm all for most of the suggestions, including keeping it simple and friendly vs an all out money/gear race. That being said the main concerns/arguments of the past have been centered around recoil and optics and the split is usually around:

• light recoil vs heavy recoil (not specific cartridges)
• irons vs magnifying optics (not simple sight aids)

To that end I say what is wrong with Major Power vs Minor Power rather than limiting the exact caliber? And to say someone has an unlimited rifle just because it wears a Hvy Bbl ? WTH ..

so what about Bbl length also: I have been using an 18" Bbl while most of you use 21" and if I can swing a bit more cash to finish the Franken Sniper for next year it has a 25" Bbl, does that make it easier or more difficult for this competition? Unlimited or Shoot what ya brung?

SO; if this is a friendly match and we are using the honor system and a guy says he can't see his front sight and wishes to use an aid like an EoTech WTH is wrong with that? Do you really think it gives him an advantage over a guy who can still see and uses irons?

BTW: I am posting these comments for discussion to get it handled before next year's match; personally I plan to use irons for a few more years, though I don't want to be booted into an optics category when I do move to a holo or something..

[sportsnut]

Originally Posted by Black Elk

BTW: I am posting these comments for discussion to get it handled before next year's match; personally I plan to use irons for a few more years, though I don't want to be booted into an optics category when I do move to a holo or something..

I'll bring you a set of "Croakies" for your glasses next year and you wont need no stinking red dots...

[brunop]

Drop 10 at 100 with mag change would be a good 'standard', and I wouldn't be sorry for a shorter range event if we were going to standardize on the 8x13" at 200 event, too.

[Tuscan Raider]

Besides the bikes, I thought the popper event went smoothly with everyone completing what classes they wanted to shoot. According to the list, we had a metric shit tonne of people that shot. We need to Keep It Simple as we are never on time no matter the best intentions.

Why not just say irons and optics. I for one consider a red dot an OPTICAL enhancement so if you want to use one, you are in optics class. Drop Unlimited as its just confusing people.

What about a team drop event? I saw the NM Fal Fest vids and I dig it. There is enough steel now between brunops and 4x401's for rifle. Draw from a hat for teams.

Doing a 100yd drop event with 10 targets and mag change would ensure most people would at least be able to finish the event. This would balance good with the bigger targets at 200yds event.

And keep the 90 second rule in effect. This helped alot, IMHO.

[brunop]

Originally Posted by Black Elk

Hey Jeff don't get bent now, you are supposed to be one of the "nice guys" around here remember..

I'm all for most of the suggestions, including keeping it simple and friendly vs an all out money/gear race. That being said the main concerns/arguments of the past have been centered around recoil and optics and the split is usually around:

• light recoil vs heavy recoil (not specific cartridges)
• irons vs magnifying optics (not simple sight aids)

To that end I say what is wrong with Major Power vs Minor Power rather than limiting the exact caliber? And to say someone has an unlimited rifle just because it wears a Hvy Bbl ? WTH ..

so what about Bbl length also: I have been using an 18" Bbl while most of you use 21" and if I can swing a bit more cash to finish the Franken Sniper for next year it has a 25" Bbl, does that make it easier or more difficult for this competition? Unlimited or Shoot what ya brung?

SO; if this is a friendly match and we are using the honor system and a guy says he can't see his front sight and wishes to use an aid like an EoTech WTH is wrong with that? Do you really think it gives him an advantage over a guy who can still see and uses irons?

BTW: I am posting these comments for discussion to get it handled before next year's match; personally I plan to use irons for a few more years, though I don't want to be booted into an optics category when I do move to a holo or something..

I'm not bent at all - in fact, I really appreciate you sticking with the discussion.

Maybe none of this matters, but I definitely fear what 4x401 said earlier (paraphrase coming): "People are going to lose interest if we can't get our stuff nailed down". I know this has to do with time, schedules & events, etc., but it applies to everything. I don't think this event (especially the shooting part) creates any stress for people, but that's the beauty of a year's worth of communication and public (and agreed-upon) rules - people know what to expect, so they can think about other stuff. I don't want a bunch of rules for the sake of rules, I want some basic boundaries so the events stay 'mil-surp' based and sorta lower-key.

It doesn't matter what I think about red-dots and optics: if the group here says red-dots are optics, they'll probably get treated like optics - no matter what my opinion is.

25" barrel? I don't know - I was saying that the Optics class should have the 'upgrades' in it so there is a place for upgrades (roughly like the SASS/counter-sniper rifles that people have been building since before Chuck Taylor's article in Soldier of Fortune magazine in the '70s...). But if a guy shows up with a stock 50.42 with irons and wants to shoot MBR with it, it seems like a fair deal to me. So that should mean that all HBs should be allowed in.

I'm not deciding - it's up to the group.

[Pluskat]

Please bear with me....I'll get to my point eventually...

I've pointed guns at people many times in a previous line of work, but other'n that and watching a sh_t-ton of war movies, I've never been in a true 'gun battle' so, no...I DON'T really know what I'm talking about here. But it seems to me that in the interest of KISS...we should accept the fact that in a "battle", not everyone waits to engage until it can be determined that all are using the same caliber. A guy who gets zapped by a Taliban running an ancient SVT is no less KIA/WIA because his enemy had a 'recoil disadvantage'. His shooter overcame any 'disadvantage' inherent in his rifle's design and sunk a pill into him. Likewise, we did not afford the NVA/Viet Cong a 'do over' after one of our Heroes dropped one of them with a puny .55gr bullet fired out of a 'lighter recoiling' rifle.

Case in point...I've been watching brunop lately and his frequent 'time on the trigger' of his FAL is paying off. I'm fully convinced that with me on my AR and him on his FAL....he'd smoke me every time. So, light recoil/heavy recoil....light bullet/heavy bullet is all a bunch of CRAP and is the stuff of BABIES. You can either shoot your rifle well....or you can't.

My point is...if we truly want to make this thing 'happen' within the time allotted each year, then I think reducing the 'technicalities' is required. To that end, I'd suggest the following classes...

Battle Rifle- Irons
Battle Rifle- Optics (with magnification or without)
Mil-Surp Bolt (irons)

"But...but...what constitutes a Battle Rifle?" Come on....are you KIDDING ME? Anyone who shows up with a rifle, that in the configuration/caliber they intend to run, has NEVER seen battle somewhere in the world at some point, either isn't intelligent enough, or possessing integrity enough to shoot with us. It isn't that tough. It's a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle that has been used by those guys to shoot those other guys. I know I made the point this year to be able to run the Mosin as a 'battle rifle' but that was because I was ONLY shooting that one rifle....and we all saw how well THAT turned out. I won't be 'that guy' again on the topic.

As to the 'advantages' one rifle has over another...an example....If a guy wants/needs to run an Enfield with a 10rd detachable box mag in the Mil-Surp class...and wins.....well then he gets to 'win' knowing that he did so using a rifle with a MAJOR advantage over guys running Mausers/Mosins etc. that did NOT have that advantage. If he's ok with that, then fine and since this is 'for fun', we shouldn't get TRULY torque'd. (good-natured rage is ok)

I think on the Battle Rifle stuff, a mandatory mag change like we did the year before this one is great. I get the fact that some guys can't run well/at all so, in the interest of not excluding someone, I'd go against my preference and say we DON'T include a shooting spot transition. I'd at least like to do away with the rifle rest, except for the kids/new shooters who need the help. We want them to have fun with this and 'hits' equals fun for new shooters.

I also like the 'drawing for drop 10 team' concept and if we bag the Saturday breakfast and make Friday's breakfast the group AM feed, and have the first shooter on the line at 0700hrs...I can't see why we couldn't get it all in with an hour for lunch and be done in time for the big dinner. Those cooking the evening meal should shoot first in the morning and after lunch.

My .02 FWIW

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by brunop

Drop 10 at 100 with mag change would be a good 'standard', and I wouldn't be sorry for a shorter range event if we were going to standardize on the 8x13" at 200 event, too.

I agree. The 100yrd event could kinda be like "rifle speed steel" and the
200 yrd would be harder and match the events of other FAL groups. Cool.

But if this keeps growing and has more shooters its going to be hard to squeeze it all in. I think the pistol stuff can go much faster on day one with multiple RO's running different events at the same time.

Maybe this could leave open Friday afternoon for a rifle event. I would really
like to see the mil-surp bolt gun event go. Its been nixed due to time on Saturday, so maybe we could shoot it on friday afternoon??

I would advocate the 100yrd drop ten for the mil-surp??

T

[Pluskat]

Originally Posted by brunop

I don't want a bunch of rules for the sake of rules, I want some basic boundaries so the events stay 'mil-surp' based and sorta lower-key.

uh....yep.

[Black Elk]

Originally Posted by sportsnut

I'll bring you a set of "Croakies" for your glasses next year and you wont need no stinking red dots...

you want put frogs on my glasses? wth?


lol I guess those are some kind of retainer, I need to back to my eye surgeon to make a few 'adjustments' maybe they have something like that..

[brunop]

On Tat2's, TR's, and Pluskat's points:

1) I think red dots are an optical enhancement - however minor or major depending on the dot, situation, etc. I said so to my old man who was saying that he couldn't see the targets in the sagebrush when the sun was bright and behind them. I said, "Get a scope. No embarrassment to shoot what works for you. I could see a situation where a 1-4 scope was a BITCHIN' aid to combat hits at all distances. Works in 3 Gun, prolly works in the field." That is what he just bought.

2) At least two guys above (and maybe all three) are saying the same thing: just call it Irons and Optics.


So in summary, we could do an event that looks like the following:

Friday afternoon: Drop 10 with Mil-Surp Bolt Guns - no 10 round Indian Enfield mags, because they are post WWII inventions, and are definitely NOT karate kwalified

Saturday morning: Drop 10 with Irons, and Drop 10 with Optics - you can shoot both categories if you want.

Saturday afternoon: 200 Yard Plate match. We should allow one Category per shooter only so we have time to do the Team Match. If you are going to compare times with other FAL Fest-like events around the country, you need to shoot irons. I'm guessing they are also requiring .30 cal mil-surp chamberings, too. But hey, for our event, we'll offer it in one of the two categories: Irons and Optics.

Also Saturday afternoon: 200 Yard Plate Team match. Draw for teams is one way, or we make our own alliances. I don't care much either way, but at Moses' matches and at FAL Fest, you dance with who brung ya: buddies, travel partners, brothers, father/son, etc. I kinda like this idea more than hat-draw, because if Otis61 and Son of Otis want to practice together for 364 days until next year, we shouldn't be breaking that potentially winning combo up - they should be rewarded for practicing. If I were TR, I'd bring Dom and his scoped M1A each and every year...

I suggest again that Irons be stock (ish) rifles, and Optics allow whatever EXCEPT for chamberings. I strongly support allowing only generally issued military chamberings such as 5.56mm, 5.45mm, 7.62x39, x51, x54, and .30-'06... If someone were able to steal Stimpy's 8mm FAL and bring it to Oregon, I'd let it shoot because 8mm was generally issued all over the place - whether it was issued in FALs or not.

Edited to add: in the team match at FAL Fest AND at Moses' match, they allow one person to use a scope or optic, and another person to use irons. This is another reason to make our own alliances, so two 'Optics' guys don't draw together. Obviously, neither Optics nor Irons would be an advantage, since both teams would be using one of each.

[brunop]

Oh, and I forgot I was going to do this (can't imagine how it slipped my mind )...

Originally Posted by pluskat

...So, light recoil/heavy recoil....light bullet/heavy bullet is all a bunch of CRAP and is the stuff of BABIES. You can either shoot your rifle well....or you can't....

I publicly apologize for having too much sand packed up tight last year, and bringing the .223 vs. .308 question into the mix regarding classes and events. Especially since two facts were available to me and everyone else the whole time: 1) we've always allowed bags, bipods, or ammo cans to shoot off of - which can lessen the affect of recoil, and 2) Tat2 SMOKED the field a couple of years ago with two separate runs - one with a fancy .223, and one with an iron sighted FAL if I remember correctly. And I believe his times were within one (1) solitary second of each other. So Pluskat is (and was) right, and I was a crying baby.

I don't feel any better, but it is finally done...

[brunop]

I'd also like to point out that we didn't actually start shooting the Drop 10 (the first match) until 11:00 AM. And then we were interrupted by bikes on more than one occasion, and at least one rain storm/dump.

If we have a shooting tent (for shade or rain), and we do the breakfast on Friday morning like Pluskat suggested, we could rock several bitchin' events on Saturday and still have time to prep the big meal.

In fact, we could probably do the Saturday breakfast just the same - if we started it at 7AM like TR normally does. The breakfast guys would shoot later, while the smoker guys would shoot earlier.

Plenty of time if we want to use it.

[Tuscan Raider]

I remember now you mentioning the optics/iron team combo. Me like.

Breakfast Friday morning sure would cut down on the bodies needing fed.
It took nearly 2hrs Sat. morning to feed everyone. But I don't mind by any means. I enjoy cooking for the group. It's my schtick.

A long time ago I used to be the guy to wake everyone up. Be it with roommates or camping.Time in the Army made me an early riser. I figured if I'm up, so should you be too. I don't want to be that guy again, but if it got everyone rausted early to get things done I could be.

Everything else sounds great brunop.

[brunop]

TR - I'm going to write that down as one (1) vote for

1. Mil-Surp chamberings in MBR (semi-auto): 8mm, 7.62x54, & 30-'06 (WWII), 7.62x39, & 5.45x39 (Warsaw), and 7.62x51 & 5.56x45 (NATO), and milsurp chamberings in Karate Rifelz (original chamberings in stock rifles)

2. Three classes: MBR Irons (stock-ish semis), MBR Optics (not-so-stock-ish semis with dots, scopes, or other goodies), and Mil-Surp Bolt Gun (stock surp karate rifelz)

3. The following schedule:

a) Thursday sight in, plinking, and whatever. Sight-in/plinking range will be open all weekend

b) Friday morning handgun and/or 3 Gun clinic by Tat2

c) Friday morning and afternoon handgun & 3 Gun events

d) Friday after dinner Mil Surp Bolt Gun Run (Drop 10 at 100 yards)

e) Saturday morning breakfast at 7AM

f) Saturday morning 8x13 Plate Race at 200 - both MBR Irons and MBR Optics

g) Saturday morning 8x13 Team Race at 200 - one Irons and one Optics participant. Bring your own team of two OR get another 'single' and partner up. Single elimination. Bracket by 'hat-draw'.

h) Saturday afternoon Drop 10 at 100 yards with mandatory mag change (either at 5 or at 8 - TBD later) - both MBR Irons and MBR Optics

i) Dinner as usual

j) Saturday evening King Shot

[brunop]

I also forgot to address something else: number of participants.

I don't think we can get much bigger. If the people who have come in the past all attended, and some of the family that has attended in the past attended, we'd have been near sixty people.

I'm definitely not suggesting that we un-invite or limit arbitrarily. I think we should just try to keep our group coming back, and it will ebb and flow naturally. I don't want 100 people showing up next year.

[4x401]

I've read alot of good thoughts here.(Except Brunops, dudes all over the board here) And speaking as part of the "Commitee", each and every one is appreciated, thank you!

I would like to humbly submit some observations as food for thought, and follow with a couple questions.

We are an awesome group of people! And we continue to add to our awesomeness every year with every new attendee!

Here's what I see "our" group most interested in by order of preference;

Relaxing/Bull$hitting
Eating
Shooting

I'm asking, is this accurate or not?

I'm all for clear cut "definitions" regarding the different shooting classes. We need that to prevent the gear war. IMHO, thats NOT what our get together is about.

This shoot keeps moving more toward competition as oppossed to fun.

Is that what we want? Or do we need to keep it low on comp and high on comradery?

If we go low on comp and emphasize comradery, things remain the same as this year. If we emphasize the competition, I'm all for a 07:00 start time on Fri/Sat to see everyone gets their shot. That means we keep our noses to the stone regardless of weather to get this done.


PLEASE EVERYONE, EXPRESS YOUR HONEST THOUGHTS ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO PROCEED.

The "commitee" has alot of work to do in streamlining this event. This year was great, but with everyones input it can be better!

[4x401]

Originally Posted by brunop

I'm definitely not suggesting that we un-invite or limit arbitrarily. I think we should just try to keep our group coming back, and it will ebb and flow naturally. I don't want 100 people showing up next year.

Boy do I have some thoughts on THAT statement! I'd like to talk with you on this one.

[Tuscan Raider]

Originally Posted by brunop

I also forgot to address something else: number of participants.

I don't think we can get much bigger. If the people who have come in the past all attended, and some of the family that has attended in the past attended, we'd have been near sixty people.

I'm definitely not suggesting that we un-invite or limit arbitrarily. I think we should just try to keep our group coming back, and it will ebb and flow naturally. I don't want 100 people showing up next year.

Yes. I knew alot of people were there, but the group pic really put it into perspective.

That would be my line of voting. The MGR/Iron class this year only had 5 shooters, so that could be dropped, as I am thinking with Pluskat.

There really is no fine line anymore on what makes a caliber "MBR."
It's a fact the MBR caliber for the last 40 years has been .22 caliber in the US, and even the Reds went .22-.21 after Vietnam. Shoot .30 MBR from WW1 to Korea and beyond,or MBR Vietnam to current day, up to you.

Technically, we had very little participation in mil surp bolt gun.
With no time limit, one person dropped all 10. 5 people shot, IIRC.

Should we keep this, or spend time on the 200yd 8x13's and Team event?

[Tailback]

Originally Posted by Tuscan Raider

Yes. I knew alot of people were there, but the group pic really put it into perspective.

That would be my line of voting. The MGR/Iron class this year only had 5 shooters, so that could be dropped, as I am thinking with Pluskat.

There really is no fine line anymore on what makes a caliber "MBR."
It's a fact the MBR caliber for the last 40 years has been .22 caliber in the US, and even the Reds went .22-.21 after Vietnam. Shoot .30 MBR from WW1 to Korea and beyond,or MBR Vietnam to current day, up to you.

Technically, we had very little participation in mil surp bolt gun.
With no time limit, one person dropped all 10. 5 people shot, IIRC.

Should we keep this, or spend time on the 200yd 8x13's and Team event?

I'm a big fan of the bolt gun match cuz it's demanding and fun, but I have to somewhat agree with Tuscan. if the participation doesn't warrant it, dropping it would be logical. Maybe doing a drop 8 @ 100 yards like at Albany would increase participation? Regardless, the focus should be .30 MBR stuff, FAL's and Garands.

[PSL54Junkie]

You guys figure out what we are shooting and i'll shoot it. I'll be there with the Rolling Hilton, ABT's, BEER, my lawn chair and guns can't wait for next year

[Black Elk]

I must agree with the majority of posters to this fact - "WE" founded this as an informal fun get together which included shooting; and at times it begins to resemble or at least attempt to lean toward a rigid competition structure with Rules and Gripe-ings to abound.

I have been for the most part silent due to my inability to attend some years but now that most of the gripe-ing has been toned down it seems IMHO we have a tendency to press the line toward stricter rigid rules; some of which appear to me at least to be arbitrary in nature. Not mentioning names it just seems very odd to me that one could say in one breath "...the caliber doesn't matter..." while stating in another "...we must keep it to 'appropriate' MilSurp Ammo..." - to me this is contradictory and only adds to the strict rules rather than the community of shooters. I could see it if we were talking about getting 100+ shooters through a professional course environment but we aren't there 'yet': and I'm actually not apposed to it happening.

Short version: HTH can you say 5.56 = 7.62 while saying .280, .338, etc. are not welcome?

________________________________________________

Item II skipping right to the short version: Are you trying to tell me that with good, practiced eyes there is such a great advantage from Irons to Dots that they 'must' be placed in separate events? I call BS and atrribute it to laziness on the shooters part and it can be chalked up to technique rather than advantage. The only advantage in unmagnified optics (at the ranges we are talking about) would be for sight aquisision due to visibility.

---------------------------------------------------------

Here is what I could produce with my limited puterphoo for you to understand what I see with ea. and every shot; and I still plan to use Irons for a few years, and as long as I can see the target and remember what distance I have sighted in for I am a viable competitor to date.



My issues this year were brought about by a stripped front sight post which needed changed at the last minute, and then being unable to get a complete 'seal' of the front sight 'ears' to the rear peep aperture making it impossible for me to maintain tight windage because it is impossible to determine any difference between the distance from one side of the front ears and the other. This was a personal failing and not to be blamed on equipment or weather. (the same for the king shot when I had a good (enough) sight pic but failed to remember point blank zero.

[Black Elk]

On another note I feel our provision of Sat breakfast actually helps most people get to the line sooner as they have no need to perform those morning chores and are free to prep for the event. This year it ran late because we were asked to begin late and then had more than our share of stragglers; we will be cutting it off at a max of 2hrs from now on and would like to tighten that even further, there is no reason it can't happen in 1hr.

It is a joy to expedite that meal and it has become an expected tradition; at least in my mind.


ETA:

oh yea and the bolt guns, or any event lacking in numbers which can eat at our time: NIX IT!!! I like my bolts also, and I can do well with my break action encore in 7mm-08 but we don't need an event for that at this shoot. JMHO again..

[ALL FAL]

Hey Blackelk, I see the grey peep cloud these days, it is a challenge to shoot irons these days as even 5 years ago there was not really a sight problem, all of us are going to get old and lose our sight faster or slower than others.

All this talk about irons or red dot, well, consider this: what if you wear glasses and can shoot excellent irons with them, what if you lost those glasses when it came time to shoot??, are we going to tell those who wear glasses to not wear them while shooting irons? An dot sight in my case does NOT really help at all, what is everyone worried about? this is Not life or death shooting and friendly competition is fun, there is no easy way to level the field is there?

Let folks shoot to the best of their own ability, some may need a 4X scope, let them shoot scoped, those with good eyes and ability, by all means shoot irons.

Ok, rambling off, happy fourth to all.

[Pluskat]

Uh....whether it's me or someone else you're referring to on the 'same breath' comment....

You've missed the position taken. It's TWO (2) entirely different topics...NOT spoken about in the "same breath"....

Point/Topic#1- If brunop can out shoot me with his FAL running a heavier recoiling round than what my AR pukes out....then, obviously...."caliber didn't matter" and I don't think we should make classes based on calibers.

Point/Topic#2-The military caliber 'requirement' is easilly defined..."if a soldier somewhere, hasn't used that caliber to shoot at other soldiers (or you can't PROVE IT) then you're not running your whizbang, sabot-rounded smokepole in the Oregon FAL Shoot. If that means I run an Ak in .39 against a guy shooting a Garand in 30.06 then so be it.

Jayzuz....has it really come to THIS?

HTH can you say 5.56 = 7.62 while saying .280, .338, etc. are not welcome?

Easy....show up with something 'military' and have fun competing against other swell fellas shooting something 'military'...or go the hell on somewhere else with your overly-competitive bad self and by all means...good luck kicking ass at that OTHER competition. (and I'm speaking 'generally' here BE....not to YOU specifically just to be clear)

If we let this continue to 'slide' too far from the "fun event" it started out as in "THE PIT"....we'll regret it to be sure.

(oh and .338 IS being used by our Heroes DAILY who are allowed to run sniper rifles chambered in that caliber...might not be many of 'em...but they ARE being used in conflict so....bring your semi-automatic military rifle chambe.....uh, 'semi-automatic'?)

[Pluskat]

....and as to red dots,

If ANYONE can honestly come to the conclusion that the precise aiming point of a red dot...is not an advantage over the sight picture of irons....then you should be willing to kiss the STELLARSALESMANOFTHECENTURY's asses who get all those military/LE/competitive shooters from around the world to buy 'em.

....and you're also saying that every procurement officer/armorer/and individual who buys such a device...has paid $'s for something that adds weight and bulk to a weapon with NO realized improvement. Oh....and they also then get to waste more $'s on batteries.

Bullcrap!

[Erik the Red]

I've been super busy lately so I haven't been keeping track of this thread like I wanted to. There's one thing that I really would like to see added or changed in the matches. I think that since this is the Oregon FAL Shoot, there should be an event that is just for iron sight FALs ONLY. It really only makes sense to have this.

-Erik

[Pluskat]

Originally Posted by Erik the Red

I've been super busy lately so I haven't been keeping track of this thread like I wanted to. There's one thing that I really would like to see added or changed in the matches. I think that since this is the Oregon FAL Shoot, there should be an event that is just for iron sight FALs ONLY. It really only makes sense to have this.

-Erik

Yep...and despite my not even owning a FAL....I agree with this one completely.

[sportsnut]

Originally Posted by Erik the Red

I've been super busy lately so I haven't been keeping track of this thread like I wanted to. There's one thing that I really would like to see added or changed in the matches. I think that since this is the Oregon FAL Shoot, there should be an event that is just for iron sight FALs ONLY. It really only makes sense to have this.

-Erik

Love the hand guards Erik !

[Black Elk]

Originally Posted by ALL FAL

Hey Blackelk, I see the grey peep cloud these days, it is a challenge to shoot irons these days as even 5 years ago there was not really a sight problem, all of us are going to get old and lose our sight faster or slower than others.

All this talk about irons or red dot, well, consider this: what if you wear glasses and can shoot excellent irons with them, what if you lost those glasses when it came time to shoot??, are we going to tell those who wear glasses to not wear them while shooting irons? An dot sight in my case does NOT really help at all, what is everyone worried about? this is Not life or death shooting and friendly competition is fun, there is no easy way to level the field is there?

Let folks shoot to the best of their own ability, some may need a 4X scope, let them shoot scoped, those with good eyes and ability, by all means shoot irons.

Ok, rambling off, happy fourth to all.

lol Dave you are arguing for the same point I am while appearing to chastise me for having an opposing view.

I'm the one saying lets just keep it fun and not so anal about non magnified optics or calibers.

[Black Elk]

Originally Posted by Pluskat

... (and I'm speaking 'generally' here BE....not to YOU specifically just to be clear)
...

first I will answer this one: I am happy you included it as the mood I am in I was thinking fine guess I'm out - yeah yeah I know too sensitive right; but there is more to this story which wont be printed here.

[Black Elk]

Ok now to the rest of Marlin's posts:

the holo sights Do have a known advantage AT Close Range.

we are not shooting CQB here so most mechanical advantage is mute ..

and no military is using the .338Fed caliber they use the much longer and seriously higher pressure .338Lapua

the .338Fed is based on the .308 cartridge just necked up for .338

hm now what have I missed?

ETA:

oh yes the Military Caliber vs Shoot What Ya Brung: I understand from your perspective it is two points however I am attempting to get you to see my perspective regarding how it can be seen as the same issue. First I am not talking about equipment races here only the choice of caliber. first you say any caliber from this list can run against any other, then you say but if we don't approve of the caliber it can't shoot with us. Since nobody can claim all those cartridges are equal to each other then I must ask why you would be prejudice toward any other caliber..

What if a guy wanted to shoot his .22LR AR conversion in the same match?
oh that's a no-no right? but what if he was broke? so now people being hurt by obama just a bit more than you or I are not welcome..

This thing started out Shoot What ya brung as we designed it to be more about the people than the competition then there were some arguments along the way (none of which I was involved in) and now we have begun to get a bit rule happy. I would like to set out some guild lines of calming down and stop trying to do so much; I hate it when people say let's back off and not allow more people to attend while at the same time try to add fifteen new events to the agenda. this was about guys hanging and having fun, then morphed into families hanging out and having fun, I would rather see more people than more events.

[brunop]

I have a suggestion that may solve a couple of issues that have been brought up: namely the "...7.62x51 will compete against 5.56x45, so if 'a' is going to fight against 'd', how come we aren't letting 'b' and 'c' in the ring?" argument, as well as the suggestion - first from Tat2 and then from Erik the Red - that we have an FAL Shoot at the (wait for it...) Oregon FAL Shoot.

What if we did the following? (Please see below before you start judging the 'time factor'...)

Friday morning = handgun/3 Gun clinic
Friday morning = handgun event 1
Friday after lunch = handgun event 2
Friday afternoon = 3 Gun event
Friday after dinner = Bolt Gun Run (drop 10 poppers)
Friday after dinner = the Rifle Challenge (3 clay pigeons at 50 yards)

Saturday morning = Plate Race
Saturday morning = Team Plate Race
Saturday after lunch = Drop 10
Saturday afternoon = IRON FAL SHOOT (iron sighted FALs)
Saturday after dinner = King Shot

1) Lots of events, and each shooter only gets to run each event once. But you don't have to run the same rifle for the different events. A person could shoot "MBR Irons" in the Drop 10, and the same person could choose to run "MBR Optics" in the Plate Race earlier that day. We could get through lots of shooters and events if we each shot the event only once.

2) We let any rifle shoot any caliber. I've been against this because piston-run ARs in any of the 6.5mm cartridges are going to have a 'leg up' on other guns. But since Pluskat so clearly pointed out that we don't let people have "do-overs" in combat just because the other guy had a better rifle, we must extend that logic to the chambering, as well. I mean, if we are applying the logic backwards (and we are...), we have to apply it forward to today, too. Those cartridges exist, so they are on the playing field. Besides...

3) 6.5mm Whiz-Bang isn't going to help any shooter Friday afternoon: Event 1 is 3 Gun, and you are going to shoot a .223 if you want to go fast at close range, Event 2 is Karate Rifelz, and Event 3 is 50 yards of 4" clay pigeons (3 of them), and everyone who wants to go fast is going to use .223 there, too.

4) On Saturday, it isn't going to help much, either. Event 1 is the Plate Race - a FAL Brotherhood standardization that, for comparisons sake, is going to require .308 and irons, and for "Optics" comparison, is going to require .308 with optics. Of course if someone wants to run it with 6.5mm and Optics to 'win' Optics, they can do it. And it will be duly noted. Event 2 is Team Plate Race, and we are allowing one Optics shooter and one Irons shooter. 8x13" plates at 200 will give an advantage to a flat-shooting, low recoil rifle, but not much more than a heavy-barrel FAL with a scope, or a comped AR HB shooting 77 gr. match ammo. Game on! Event 3 is the Drop 10. A rifle in .260 Rem will do no better than a rifle in .223 at 100 yards. And if Tat2 is running the FAL, it will be in the running, too. Event 4 is an Iron Sighted FAL Shoot, so why not shoot .260 Rem or .338 Fed? Go on with yo' bad seff.... And finally, the last event will be the King Shot. As long as it has irons, I don't care if you shoot .50BMG.


So this will accomplish the following:

1) discourage the overall competitiveness of the Oregon FAL Shoot, because a shooter won't be in a 'Class' all shoot long - he or she will be shooting whichever rifle they like best for that event: sometimes that shooter will be shooting an MBR Optics rifle, and sometimes they will be shooting an MBR Irons rifle. And we don't care how many times they go back and forth

2) give more events to shoot by only allowing one (1) pass through each event. No more shooting the Drop 10 with your MBR Irons rifle, and then turning around and shooting it again with your MBR Optics rifle. A body has to choose

3) allow all cartridges. If you can fit it in an MBR, you can shoot it out of said MBR. No crying like babies. Bring on the .338 Federal, baby!!! And I think I want one like jaykden has in .358 Winchester...

4) Gets an Iron Sighted FAL Shoot at the Oregon FAL Shoot. And a chance for Ernst Armory to put up another cool prize for the winner of said event...

Okay, bros. Bash away...

[Tat2]

Sounds EPIC!! To allow this epic event schedule to happen I would highly advocate trying to have two sets of poppers/plates and running two shooters back to back. Then reset both sets of steel. It would really speed up events.

If there is any way to find the steel to do this and Rich was gracious enough to
weld it up it could make a HUGE difference in speeding things up.

T

[brunop]

I have 8 poppers the same size as 4x401's. And iirc, he had 12 available, but we kept 2 back as spares (which was good when we broke one of his targets). Wouldn't take much to get a couple more before next year.

I was thinking I'd have enough 8x13 plates to do two runs at a time, since we're going to need a bunch of plates to run a team match.


We'd run one shooter, and immediately run another shooter, and then reset both sets of targets, right?

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by brunop

We'd run one shooter, and immediately run another shooter, and then reset both sets of targets, right?

Exactly! And if we had a 4 wheeler we could send out two re-setters.....

T

[ALL FAL]

A four wheeler is no problem, I'm thinking that some type of auto re-setter or device that re-sets from the shooting line is the fastest and safest way to go, then you don't need two sets or more of steel or people in the hot zone all day.

When we put all our inventive minds to work on this problem, the solution will be pretty awesome, if we don't? there is always the four wheeler.

[Erik the Red]

I definitely like the idea of having two separate matches going on at the same time to save time. Hopefully next year, we will have Holli's 4 wheeler rebuilt so we can use it to help reset the targets. She has already volunteered to do this.

-Erik