Dag in Chamber...

[Trypcil]

Gentlemen, after some 135 rounds down at the range today, shooting mainly Winchester 147g 7.62x51 their mils stuff - a few failures to feed but all in all a good outing - then I fed her some Dag( Los DAG93A0301) Seemingly a little hotter and then about round 35, it fires but fails to extract. Now the bolt and carrier are stuck and the case is in chamber - it's as if the extractor claw is clamped about the case and the whole mess is stuck, the carrier moves a little and the bolt shows a little wiggle but all is firmly jammed .
Of course there's often a 'hoohah' at the range, and today there was - they suggested shoving a cleaning rod up the barrel and whacking it with a mallet! Can't quite bring myself to do that to be honest, as of yet - anyway what do you guys suggest apart from sending it back to RDO, who built it and having them deal with it. Dag, I thought was good stuff, or might it not be the ammo but the gun itself. Your thoughts please.

[RPBII]

You need to do the pogo to get it out.

[def90]

Pogo...

Hold rifle by the handguard in the right hand vertically with the butt on the ground. Next hold the charging handle with your left hand. Lift the rifle up a few inches and then drive the rifle into the ground while putting pressure on the charging handle at the same time. The stuck case will pop right out.

[black sheep]

POGO, yes definately POGO.....

[sturmgrenadiere]

Cleaning rod down the bore against the inside base of the case won't work on a FAL/L1A1.... You'll just end up ruining a cleaning rod.

A good stout one piece rod down the gas tube against the front of the bolt carrier where the gas piston would push... That will work.

The range advice was absent evident understanding of how the bolt unlocks...

Or do the technique described above which also works and is a standard field/ range remedy for most self loading rifles.

Regards

Ben

[Trypcil]

Thanks guys - I go to make a fine coffee(Pilon).... and POW, the answer on my return is posted! Have not read the thread yet but I'm about to - I will relay the outcome.

[Trypcil]

Success! But what causes this or is it just a FAL phenomena - which I doubt? Anyway that batch of DAG was Berdan primed - for what that's worth. Thanks again Gentlemen - another Happy Falista goes about his business!

[Illurian00]

So tell us,,,what does the case in question look like ? Split ? Bulged ?

Pogo w/ rifle :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6phxQjp3WtU

[def90]

Likely too much gas to the system? Especially seeing that you stated the DAG was a little "hotter". Basically case is still expanding when the gas piston is pushed back to try to eject the shell.. Turn the gas down a notch or two next time.

The FAL has an adjustable gas system and sometimes needs to be tuned to individual ammo types.

[Trypcil]

The case was intact, just a minute pull mark from the claw - Gas was on 4, whereas the Winchester was happy on a 3. A few 'fail to cycle' moments, and I had to palm the mags, which wanted to release - makes one a little nervous, could that be gas related or it that just wanky mags that need a little dressing of the indent? This is a recently built rifle, and I am still getting to know her. Still dickin' with the rear sight but then the old mince pies are a little deep at my age - but I'm getting good grouping, albethey a little low and to the left at 25 yards, she hits paper at a 100 yards though - again to the left. (she was to the right, getting familiar with the windage screws). It's a Pat Jones barrel on a DSarms Aussie cut receiver - dang metal insert in the P/grip, which holds the lollipop in, comes loose in the wood, which I guess needs a little attention. So I guess she's breaking in and she has a few brass hickeys - velcro! She's rather handsome but no safe queen. Back at it tomorrow, with gas turned down for the Dag at least, and will concentrate on zeroing for 100yards.

[dondone]

I have had that happen on one of my FALs.

In my case, it was due to the fact that there wasn't enough gas to fully retract the bolt, in which case, the bolt slams the expanded case back into the chamber causing the type of jam you describe. I was shooting Portuguese surplus .308 at the time.

I used a procedure similar to the "pogo" by placing the butt of the rifle on the ground and pushing the cocking handle knob with my foot.

I solved my problem by closing down the gas port a little until I got reliable extraction and ejection.

YMMV

[tsmgguy]

Originally Posted by def90

. . . Basically case is still expanding when the gas piston is pushed back to try to eject the shell . . .

This does not and cannot happen. The bullet exits the barrel before the gas piston ever starts to move. Gasses are no longer causing the cartridge case to expand (obturate) at this point, otherwise the case would be impossible to remove. In other words, gasses necessary for operation are trapped after the bullet passes the barrel vent, but gas pressure is already reducing when the gas piston begins movement. This principle is basic to the FAL's design.

Look at the small hole in the side of the forward portion of the gas tube. This hole fully vents the last of the remaining gas from the tube. From this point on, the piston (and bolt and carrier) are moving only through their own inertia; there is no residual gas pressure anywhere in the system.

I suspect a different cause for the stuck case here. I'd first inspect for roughness in the chamber. In my experience, DAG is slightly hot ammo, along with Portuguese. Both are hot enough to cause cartridge cases to fire form slightly, causing them to adhere to any small chamber imperfections.

[djfin]

RDO uses new barrels from the lot that Pat (RIP) and Ron from RDO made up using DEZ ARMS barrels. I would believe that the round in question was lite and the gun short stroked before I would believe that the barrel was defective. As the OP stated the rifle cycled the Winchester rounds with no problems

[garyd1961]

"I had to palm the mags... This is a recently built rifle."
I had the same problem with one of my rifles. Out of 25 or so mags I only had two that would lock up without smacking the bottom of the mag really hard and some not at all. It would also short stroke. I could have just just used the two mags that worked but I wanted it to function with all my mags. What I did was to file a little off the mag catch until it would lock up on the tight mags which made it a little loose on the two that worked before but they still function.
I'm not sure if it was deforming the feed lips or putting too much drag on the bolt or both but it runs fine now.

[W.E.G.]

In many instances involving the FAL, if you chamber a dirty spent case in a dirty chamber, you will experience considerable difficulty operating the bolt, and ejecting that re-chambered case.

Why that happens is open to debate.
Whether that happens is not subject to debate.

Learn the pogo.
It will save you much anxiety.

[dondone]

This does not and cannot happen. The bullet exits the barrel before the gas piston ever starts to move.

Logically, that would seem to be the case. However, the fact is that the case is jammed back into the chamber and has somehow expanded. I determined this by extracting the case with my foot, then trying to rechamber the case; It did not fully rechamber.

[wolfspotter1]

I had this happen a while back when I shot some reloads using 125gr bullets.
The bolt and empty shell weren't stuck, they would move slightly front to rear.
The bolt carrier was open half way wasn't budging, even after doing the pogo.
Only solution was my range rod down the gas tube. Only happened that one time and I stopped shooting those loads.

[Deltaten]

dondone...
Noooooooooo foot, please!
See proper"pogo" instructions (somewhere) above and let physics and Mom Nature work for you. The true Pogo involves no foot ation at all

[Trypcil]

So I went again to the range today, slung a bunch of South Africans at a variety of steel plates and those florescent green under black targets! She groups well and found a happy spot for the SA, at a 6 gas setting, max open being 'Eleven' on my Spinal Tap Aussie - and 'One' being fully closed. Found out I can't see ship with my tired old eyes at 100 yrds .... scope!

[W.E.G.]

Originally Posted by Deltaten

dondone...
Noooooooooo foot, please!
See proper"pogo" instructions (somewhere) above and let physics and Mom Nature work for you. The true Pogo involves no foot ation at all

See http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...highlight=pogo

[def90]

Originally Posted by Trypcil

It's a Pat Jones barrel on a DSarms Aussie cut receiver -.

I have one of Pat's barrels as well, one issue I had with mine was that the chamber was a bit tight and took a little polishing and a couple hundred rounds through it before I got the extraction/ejection bugs out of it.

So you moved the gas setting from 3 to 6 effectively reducing the amount of gas to the system.

[Ironhandjohn]

From the film "Snatch"..

[tsmgguy]

Originally Posted by dondone

Logically, that would seem to be the case. However, the fact is that the case is jammed back into the chamber and has somehow expanded. I determined this by extracting the case with my foot, then trying to rechamber the case; It did not fully rechamber.

Any case will fire form, assuming the shape of the chamber. The hotter the load, the greater the forming. This is why we resize cases full length (not just the necks) when reloading.

[Tim Dreas]

Inspect the receiver right behind the barrel where the extractor would sit in the closed bolt. Many FAL receivers are tight in this area sometimes with a round in the chamber, before or after firing, the case and rim cause the extractor to jam against the inside of the receiver. This may have been the cause of your earlier feeding problems also. If the receiver is "pinching" the extractor, you can relieve it by removing some material or polishing the area in the receiver to clear the extractor when a round is chambered.

[dondone]

Any case will fire form, assuming the shape of the chamber. The hotter the load, the greater the forming. This is why we resize cases full length (not just the necks) when reloading.

Yes, I am aware of the need for small base dies when reloading for a semi auto.

These, however, were some Portuguese military loads. It would seem that the case expanded, but the gas pressure was not enough to fully cycle the bolt, hence the bolt slamming the expanded case back into the chamber causing a jam. (Or so it seems.)

It's only happened to me on one of my builds.

I really wish I had a high speed strobe camera to see exactly what is happening...

[Trypcil]

Thank you gentlemen - she's running fine now.

[littlematt]

Originally Posted by Trypcil

Thank you gentlemen - she's running fine now.

good to hear

[garyd1961]

Originally Posted by Trypcil

Thank you gentlemen - she's running fine now.

Well, what was the problem? I'm not really being nosy just wanting to help others with this problem, ha ha.

[Trypcil]

Gary, this is a recently constructed rifle that is essentially loosening up - the mag issue has righted itself and I've got the hang of the gas stuff and now I know what works if I make the same mistake - now I'm thinking of a scope for the rifle, 'cos that right eye cataract isn't as good as the real thing and iron sights are difficult to use because of it.
Cleaning the chamber may have been the cure but I think the wrong gas setting was the real culprit, and simply the newness factor, blowing the park' off of her as it were! Pogo on!

[MACV]

Originally Posted by Trypcil

Gary, this is a recently constructed rifle that is essentially loosening up - the mag issue has righted itself and I've got the hang of the gas stuff and now I know what works if I make the same mistake - now I'm thinking of a scope for the rifle, 'cos that right eye cataract isn't as good as the real thing and iron sights are difficult to use because of it.
Cleaning the chamber may have been the cure but I think the wrong gas setting was the real culprit, and simply the newness factor, blowing the park' off of her as it were! Pogo on!

If its a new rifle you can expect some problems until its broke in. You fired 170 rounds thru it that day, probably dirty too.

[Trypcil]

Since put another 250 through - eating away at the barrel life!

[garyd1961]

Originally Posted by Trypcil

Since put another 250 through - eating away at the barrel life!

You have a long way to go before you need to worry about barrel life.

[enbloc8]

Originally Posted by Trypcil

Since put another 250 through - eating away at the barrel life!

Oh noes...it's only got about 9,622 rounds worth of life left!

[Trypcil]

At 45 cents a round, that could be a holiday in the sun ---- or lots of range time!

And another barrel!

[Rudolf]

just enjoy it.....

or just lock it up and make a trophy out of it.

[Trypcil]

I have another barrel, a vg condition hardly used 1968 Aussie.

[garyd1961]

Originally Posted by Trypcil

I have another barrel, a vg condition hardly used 1968 Aussie.

Might as well go ahead and build another rifle, I hear that's what happens sometimes with spare parts.

[W.E.G.]

I don't waste time thinking about barrel life.

Every day you get to go shooting is a gift.

Choosing not to go shooting because you don't want to wear out the barrel is like choosing not to get laid because you don't want to use up your 96-pack of Trojans.

WTF man?!!!

[Kolat]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

I don't waste time thinking about barrel life.

Every day you get to go shooting is a gift.

Choosing not to go shooting because you don't want to wear out the barrel is like choosing not to get laid because you don't want to use up your 96-pack of Trojans.

WTF man?!!!

We shot a barrel out of a short barreled M16 in somewhere between 3000 and 4000 rounds.

Bore was perfectly smooth and would get bullet shaped impacts at 15 yards

I thought of patenting the pre-tumbling bullet idea.

T

[David TS]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

I don't waste time thinking about barrel life.

Every day you get to go shooting is a gift.

Choosing not to go shooting because you don't want to wear out the barrel is like choosing not to get laid because you don't want to use up your 96-pack of Trojans.

WTF man?!!!

I may need to quote you on this at some time in the future

[garyd1961]

Originally Posted by Kolat

We shot a barrel out of a short barreled M16 in somewhere between 3000 and 4000 rounds.

Bore was perfectly smooth and would get bullet shaped impacts at 15 yards

I thought of patenting the pre-tumbling bullet idea.

T

I don't know a lot about M16's but old dirty has that beat buy about 12,000 rounds.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...ight=old+dirty

[Trypcil]

I'm not worried at all about barrel life in any manner or form (apart from me doing my part and keeping it serviceable, as proper attention to cleanliness allows) - the rising costs of the round and it's availability is a little disconcerting but this rifle is for shooting, albeit a thing of beauty - it is meant to be shot and will be. Thankfully I've squirreled away enough rocks to keep both me and the rifle occupied for some years to come. It is a button pulled barrel, so I expect somewhere between 7500 -12500, or thereabouts, perhaps less - I will keep you all informed!