Metric FAL continues to have gas problem

[insin]

Hello all,

Does anyone know of someone that I could ship my FAL to in order for them to take a look at it, repair whats wrong with it, and get it running? I've been trying to get this thing running off and on over the last few years and it still is giving me problems. Its getting better, but its not 100% yet.

It fires a single shot perfectly, shoots true, ejects, and cycles the next round, but does not reset the trigger. Gas plug is set correctly on A and 2.5 for the setting. When I was at the range I thought changing the setting would reduce the amount of gas vented, thus possibly getting the action to cycle and reset the trigger better, but I did not remember what direction to turn it. I was frustrated because I thought I fixed this problem last season, but I guess not. I was shooting some SA surplus that I had, but I figured that this shouldn't have been a problem. Turning the dial to a lower number is looking a little stiff. Almost like I might need to get a pair of pliers to get some leverage, turning by hand is not getting it to a lower number (ie 1-2). maybe a little oil.

The last thing I did was swap out the gas tube. A gentlemen from the reno area was kind enough to help me out and try to trouble shoot this problem last spring or so (maybe 2 years ago) and narrowed the problem down to a hairline cracked gas tube. I got my parts kit from gunpartsguy. He seemed to think that was my problem, but he couldn't find a new gas tubes in his pile of parts. He gave me the best one he had, but perhaps I should try a new one altogether. Does anyone know where I can pick up a good replacement? DSArms has them for 20$, but is there another reputable place either cheaper or the same price? Anyone have one for sale that isn't cracked like the one I had to replace?

I have been working on this FAL since 2007. Since then it never really ran right, but I still love it more then my PTR. Truthfully, once I get the FAL up and running, I can finally sell the PTR.

Thanks for the help/advise

[jeffrey]

As for adjusting the gas, I forget the numbers. Just look at the little hole on the top.See how the ring either closes off the hole or opens it up? The hole is the gas vent. The more open it is, the less gas available to operate the action. The more you close it off, more gas is directed to operating the piston.

See the wire springy thing pressing up against the bottom of the adjusting nut? That is what is making it hard to turn. Use a flat blade screwdriver to releive that tension and you should be able to turn it. Sometimes they're just hard anyway and there's nothing wrong with using pliers.Just wrap it with a rag so you don't scratch it.

Good luck with it.

[snowman72]

If you don't have a gas regulator wrench, the bottle opener on a Leatherman tool will work in a pinch. Used it to adjust gas on a 'malfunctioning' (read needed the gas adjusted) post-sample FAL at a MG shoot I was working last summer.

[Hoot G]

It's not your gas. If it feeds a fresh round, the bolt/carrier has gone back more than far enough to reset the trigger. The reset happens in the first 1/3(ish) of the recoil cycle.

Trigger return spring, plunger, bracket, pistol grip, sear angle, all ok?

[insin]

Originally Posted by Hoot G

It's not your gas. If it feeds a fresh round, the bolt/carrier has gone back more than far enough to reset the trigger. The reset happens in the first 1/3(ish) of the recoil cycle.

Trigger return spring, plunger, bracket, pistol grip, sear angle, all ok?

Thanks for all the replies. I will get it out to the range Friday and work with it. I'll try the gas regulation. I am not so sure how to go about checking the "Trigger return spring, plunger, bracket, pistol grip, sear angle". What exactly am I checking for? This is why I kind of would rather send it off to a gunsmith or something in order to get it running.

Any other help?

[Hoot G]

First off, where do you live? There might be some FAL folk close to you that could help.

Next, the sear probably isn't your issue, that's pretty much a last resort kinda thing. And, if you have to ask, you don't want to fool with it. No disrespect meant, but messing with it can cause you lots of trouble if you don't understand the relationship of the fire control parts.

The pistol grip and bracket most likely isn't a problem either, but it's easy to check. Just remove the pg and see if anything is interfering with the trigger movement. You can check the return spring and plunger at the same time.

The trigger return spring and plunger are the thingees behind the trigger that pushes it forward (to reset). It should be a strong spring, but should slide without interference. If the plunger is easy to push back, the spring isn't strong enough. Be careful messing with it if you have the pg off. It can launch into lost-parts-space, never to be seen again.

Try this at home (before removing the pistol grip);
After dry firing your FAL, pull the cocking handle about halfway back and release. That should be enough to reset the trigger. See if it will "fire". It shouldn't, given your original post. If it does, try it a few more times to see if it is intermittent. If it works all the time, I'll be surprised.
If it doesn't work, pull the CH halfway back again while pushing the trigger forward and see if that resets it. It should, and you've just discovered that your problem lies in one of the aforementioned areas, most likely the spring.

Some folks have been known to clip off a coil or three to get a lighter trigger. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. I think it's a bad idea, but each to their own. Another thing is there may be gunk (grease, dirt, etc) in the spring/on the plunger that gums it up. The bracket that the plunger rides in may have broken off or gotten bent, blocking the return. Whichever way, my first guess is your problem is in that area.


Best luck, and keep us posted!

[gobbler]

Lube the hell out of it, that has solved my problem a couple times, especially if it is a new or newly finished rifle. The only issues I have had with my rifles has been gas blow by due to a bad or loose tube,lubing or once using weak ammo (Russian). As Jugs said....soldered tube solves it all.

gobbler

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

I have to ask: Is the safety selector set to semi or full? If the lower is marked S R A, is the selector set on A? If the lower is marked S E D, is it set on D?

Where are you? City/state?

[insin]

Originally Posted by Hebrew Battle Rifle

I have to ask: Is the safety selector set to semi or full? If the lower is marked S R A, is the selector set on A? If the lower is marked S E D, is it set on D?

Where are you? City/state?

The lower is marked S R A, it is now and I believe at the range it was set to R. What exactly does that mean, I didn't even realize that the selector could or even had a third option swung all the way around to A. Should it be on A?

I'm located near Monterey CA

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

Originally Posted by insin

The lower is marked S R A, it is now and I believe at the range it was set to R. What exactly does that mean, I didn't even realize that the selector could or even had a third option swung all the way around to A. Should it be on A?

I'm located near Monterey CA

Not A. If set on A, it will exhibit the symptoms that you described.

[insin]

Originally Posted by Hebrew Battle Rifle

Not A. If set on A, it will exhibit the symptoms that you described.

Hmm... Ok, then what should the correct selection be? More importantly, what do the different options mean?

[paulb2112]

I would advise you to ship it to mark grahm / arizona responce systems. Recomending him because he is closest good fn guy to you that I know of.
623-556-8056. gunplumber@arizonaresponcesystems.com
Its pretty clear you are not overly familiar with system function and thats no problem. However, according to above you have jerked around for four years with it and havent hurt it or yourself playing around. It is a potentially dangerous piece of equipment and not a toy.
Have a pro get it set up and enjoy it finally.

[skeeterbay]

Originally Posted by paulb2112

I would advise you to ship it to mark grahm / arizona responce systems. Recomending him because he is closest good fn guy to you that I know of.
623-556-8056. gunplumber@arizonaresponcesystems.com
Its pretty clear you are not overly familiar with system function and thats no problem. However, according to above you have jerked around for four years with it and havent hurt it or yourself playing around. It is a potentially dangerous piece of equipment and not a toy.
Have a pro get it set up and enjoy it finally.

+1 Gunplumber/ARS will get it running 100% without question.

I would also suggest that while your talking to Gunplumber about fixing your rifle that you order his Fal DVD and work book. It will teach you more about your FAL than you could ever imagine possible. IMHO it's the best money you can spend if you own a FAL.

[insin]

Ok, short of ordering a DVD, can someone explain the SRA selections to me here? That would possibly be more helpful then redirecting my question to a purchase.

Thank you.

[skeeterbay]

Selector in the The S position is on safe. In the R position it acts as Semi. In the A position the hammer will follow the bolt forward. This means the hammer will not be cocked for the next round.

Your selector should be in the R position when shooting.

To add to my above post I figured since you were looking for a gunsmith to fix your rifle for you then it might be helpful to spend a couple of bucks more and get the DVD to expand your knowledge base. I don't get a commission on the sale of GP's DVD's nor does it matter to me if you get one or not. I was just trying to offer you a suggestion I thought would help you out that's all.

[Zeusizme]

S= Safe, R= Semi, A= Automatic. But since your gun is Semi only the A will not function the gun in Fully Automatic mode. What will happen is that the first round will fire, then the hammer will follow the bolt home causing the same thing that you have been experiancing. What is going on by the sound of it is that your hammer is not resetting for some reason. Disassemble your lower and clean all of the trigger mechanism parts then oil them up and reassemble them. If that doesn't fix your problem try a new Hammer, Trigger, Sear set. But if you don't know exactly what you are doing send the gun to Gunplumber or another FAL gunsmith, they will get her back in working order.

[tonyfac]

i had this exact problem and mine turned out to be the sear. i had the dsa one in and the edges were off by a hair. i replaced it and my cycling issues went away. if you have one, try it before ripping everything apart.

[insin]

Originally Posted by Hoot G

Try this at home (before removing the pistol grip);
After dry firing your FAL, pull the cocking handle about halfway back and release. That should be enough to reset the trigger. See if it will "fire". It shouldn't, given your original post. If it does, try it a few more times to see if it is intermittent. If it works all the time, I'll be surprised.
If it doesn't work, pull the CH halfway back again while pushing the trigger forward and see if that resets it. It should, and you've just discovered that your problem lies in one of the aforementioned areas, most likely the spring.

Whats crazy is that I expected this not to work, but when I try this exactly how it was noted, the trigger reset, and the rifle dry fired like it should. Maybe when I was at the range, the selector was around to the wrong position. Whats really weird is that when I went down there the selector was on R, not all the way around to the A position (farthest position clockwise).

So then let me get this right.. for normal functioning semi auto fire, the selector should be in the R position? Since the selections go A-R-S, the selector should be in the position farthest from the (S)afe at the R postion, basically in the 5-6 o'clock position?

Let me open the safe and dry fire it again.

[insin]

Ok, So I see what you guys mean about the A position. I really don't know how the selector could have been in that position when I was at the range without me knowing it. But to tell you the truth, its a possibility. There isn't really anything that can be done further until I give it another try.

Thanks again

[paulb2112]

Good Lord. IOH.

[dondone]

Just to sort of clarify, S=Safe, R= "Repetition" (i.e. semi-auto), and A=automatic.

[dondone]

While we're on the subject of inconsistent functioning, in you guys' experiences, what is the minimum size for the gas bleed off port in the barrel for a 16" cutdown?

[Mosin Guy]

.118-.120" on 16" barrel

[dondone]

Thanks, Mosin Guy.

[insin]

Originally Posted by Richard Erichsen

A trigger pack not resetting after the hammer has been cocked and the round locked in the chamber has nothing to do with your gas setting. The gas did it's job if the weapon cycled and the bolt really is locked in battery. A manual test is needed:

1) Remove the magazine, clear the chamber, visually confirm empty as usual
2) Remove top cover so you can observe the action
3) Pull charging handle to the rear and release
4) Point weapon in a safe direction, set selector switch to FIRE and pull the trigger without releasing it - you should hear the hammer hit the firing pin
5) Pull charging handle again and release while still holding trigger back
6) Release the trigger - You should feel the sear reset with a small bump against your finger and an audible "click"
7) Pull the trigger - you should hear the hammer hit the firing pin

If the first trigger pull releases the hammer, but the reset never happens, you've got to strip your trigger group apart. Entreprise is local (here in SoCal) and this is one task they may actually be up for if you are not comfortable working on the trigger pack yourself. Depending on your location, it's probably best to meet the gunsmith over there face to face rather than mailing it and make an appointment so you can be there when its done, get a detailed explanation, a quote for any needed parts and time and make sure you do not leave the firearm with them! If you stay there, they will get it done and probably do a fine job for a reasonable fee and a couple of hours of your time.

R

OK... so I went to range Friday, and the same thing. The first round fires, it ejects, the bolt cycles the next round into the chamber, but since there wasn't a trigger reset, nothing happens on the next trigger pull. I did try what was recommended by dry firing, then cycling the bolt back manually half way to see if the trigger resets while still depressing it, and IT DOES. I didn't understand it. Why was the trigger not reseting after firming but it does on dry fire half cocking.

So I tried to another theory...
Let me ask you all something. If the bolt is being held back by the the bolt release and you where to depress the trigger and release the bolt, should the hammer follow the bolt as it slams forward cambering the next round? Could it be that my bolt is traveling back this far after firing and because I am still depressing the trigger, the hammer is following the bolt as soon as it locks back up in battery? I believe that this is what is happening.

I am no gunsmith so I am seriously thinking about contacting the recommended smiths to take a look at my gun. BUT, does this sound like I am pin pointing my problem?

Thanks

[Hoot G]

If the hammer follows the bolt, there is a problem. It should not do that, unless you have the selector in the A position. Did you try the test that Richard Erichsen posted? That will tell you if you have hammer follow.

When you fired your FAL and the trigger didn't reset, did you try to push the trigger forward manually?

[7.62mm_NATO]

Replace your current HTS with this:

http://www.the-dealer-warehouse.com/...gger-Sear.html

Then, replace your hammer spring with a new OEM type and it's highly likely your problems will be solved.

The gas system is not your problem if you're getting good ejection and the bolt is stripping a new cartridge from the magazine.

I had the same problem and the culprit was a "Bubba'd" HTS and hammer spring...

[def90]

Originally Posted by insin

Could it be that my bolt is traveling back this far after firing and because I am still depressing the trigger, the hammer is following the bolt as soon as it locks back up in battery? I believe that this is what is happening

No.. proper firing techique is to hold the trigger until the shot is fired and you r body and rifle have returned to your firing position and then release the trigger just far enough until it clicks/resets.

Do not use the "A" position.. forget that it exists.

Besides, pulling the trigger does not release the bolt. I think you need to send the rifle off to one of the guys listed above because you don't seem to have basic knowledge of how the rifle operates. Trying to fix it yourself may very well make the situation worse.

[insin]

Originally Posted by def90

No.. proper firing techique is to hold the trigger until the shot is fired and you r body and rifle have returned to your firing position and then release the trigger just far enough until it clicks/resets.

Do not use the "A" position.. forget that it exists.

Besides, pulling the trigger does not release the bolt. I think you need to send the rifle off to one of the guys listed above because you don't seem to have basic knowledge of how the rifle operates. Trying to fix it yourself may very well make the situation worse.

I am not using the A position.

[insin]

Originally Posted by 7.62mm_NATO

Replace your current HTS with this:

http://www.the-dealer-warehouse.com/...gger-Sear.html

Then, replace your hammer spring with a new OEM type and it's highly likely your problems will be solved.

The gas system is not your problem if you're getting good ejection and the bolt is stripping a new cartridge from the magazine.

I had the same problem and the culprit was a "Bubba'd" HTS and hammer spring...

Thanks. I will give this a try

[sparkeyboaz]

Originally Posted by insin

Thanks. I will give this a try

I would highly recommend that you spend some serious time digging any and all info available on the dissassembly and reassembly of the FAL rifle.
The Metric version in particular is not an easy chore to reinstall the Hammer/ Trigger/ Sear assembly. You will need a short "pin" about the size of the Gas Block Pin to "mock-up" the Trigger/ Sear assembly. In the archives you may find this info. You can fabricate one from the appropriate size drill bit.
A member here, "1MOR" , recommended to me to do the same thing.
{Take one completely apart and "STUDY" it and then reassemble it}.
I am very grateful for his advice. It took some research but I learned alot about all the individual parts.
The single most important necessity was the "pin" to mock-up the trigger/ sear assembly. If you try it w/out the pin it is next to impossible. It serves to hold the trigger/ sear assembly together so it can installed in the trigger housing and then the trigger pin can be inserted fully as it pushes the "mock-up pin" out of the trigger housing.
Gather together yourself a set of the necessary tools to do the basic work including the mentioned "pin" and you can handle most of the disassembly/ reassembly short of rebarreling/ headspacing.
That gets into alot more detail including Barrel Timing.
I hope you are able to resolve the issues you are having. It will be a learning experience but will be worth your time and efforts!
Enjoy, Sparkeyboaz

[jugrunner]

send me your address and I'll give you a nice Belgian hammer/trigger/sear set ... ain't no trouble to put it in ... a little blood maybe the first time but maybe not ...

let me know if your interested ...

[7.62mm_NATO]

Originally Posted by jugrunner

ain't no trouble to put it in ... a little blood maybe the first time but maybe not ...

It won't hurt as much if you drink a few pints first.

[Illurian00]

tag

[insin]

Originally Posted by paulb2112

I would advise mark grahm / arizona responce systems.
623-556-8056. gunplumber@arizonaresponcesystems.com

I understand GunPlumber has an instructional DVD. Would this DVD help/instruct me of the proper way to change/swap the Hammer Trigger and Sear? I am not against the idea having a gunsmith do it, however I would rather purchase the dvd and gain the knowledge myself on the ins and outs of this weapon system.

[Roadmarker]

Yep, that sounds like a good idea. All the guys are trying to get you to learn more about your weapon. Empower yourself, but don't be afraid to ask for help. That's what this site is all about. Read everything you find on this site. It will all eventually sink in and you'll become a walkin' talkihn' FAL machine.
Start with the top sticky!

[Millet16]

Originally Posted by insin

I understand GunPlumber has an instructional DVD. Would this DVD help/instruct me of the proper way to change/swap the Hammer Trigger and Sear? I am not against the idea having a gunsmith do it, however I would rather purchase the dvd and gain the knowledge myself on the ins and outs of this weapon system.

I have Gunplumbers DVD's and just two days ago took the whole trigger assembly apart and put it all back together following his DVD step by step. It was a little tricky, but nothing you can't do. No special tools were required except I did use some small needle nose pliers at one point. I'm replacing the lower with a DSA alloy in the next day or two, so I will be taking it all apart again. I plan on following the DVDs again, step by step. I highly recommend the DVDs and workbook from Gunplumber.

[Millet16]

Here is what it looked like taken apart...